afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread II!

[afroakuma]

So I guess the original Planar Questions thread was pretty popular, having reached 50 pages. Having run the gamut from homebrew rilmani and planar aasimar varieties to Chronomancer, Ravenloft and Tom Jones, I don't really know where it might head next, but I'll be here as long as there are questions to answer.

The original thread is still available (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265884) if you have a lot of time and a lot of curiosity.

[ShadowFireLance]

I've got a 2nd Question, That I think might Challenge you. :smallwink:

Who has more Plot's/Webs/Etc of plans Going at one time?
Graz'zt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KUJE2xs-RE) or Asmodeas?


Re-post of Question, So you don't miss it.
:smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

Re-post of Question, So you don't miss it.
:smalltongue:

How is that going to challenge me? It's an opinion question. I'm going to side with Asmodeus.

[lord of pixies]

can i create a plane consisting of a tesseract with a Genesis spell? (Arcane or psionic version)

[Answerer]

can i create a plane consisting of a tesseract with a Genesis spell? (Arcane or psionic version)
Can you visualize one? Research suggests that the human brain cannot, if I understand correctly?

[afroakuma]

can i create a plane consisting of a tesseract with a Genesis spell? (Arcane or psionic version)

No. Continuous no.

[Lord_Gareth]

Are there any examples of Astral demiplanes in canon? What would it take to construct one?

[Cranthis]

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if the woodchuck could travel to the plane of The Wilderness of the Beastlands?

[RFLS]

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if the woodchuck could travel to the plane of The Wilderness of the Beastlands?

In a similar vein, if the rain in spain falls mainly on the planes, what is the average yearly rainfall of the whole of Greyhawk cosmology?

[LOTRfan]

I really like what you did with the Aasimars. Any chance I can ask you to do something similar with the Tieflings/Chaonds/Zenythri?

[Chilingsworth]

Congrats on the second thread, Afro! :smallbiggrin:

[Asmodai]

I've been loving the past thread, and still have about a quarter to go. It's gonna come in quite handy for my upcoming Planescape game. Thank you for the effort Afroakuma!

Two smaller questions for now. I'm curious about travel from and to Athas, considering it's in a messed up place that's not very well connected to the grea wheel? Also, Eberron, how would you facilitate travel from the normal Great Wheel cosmology to Eberron? What is Eberron in terms of the Great Wheel anyway?

[Eldan]

Eberron, of course, only came out long after Planescape ended, and there were no books even remotely connected to the cosmology (à la Manual of the Planes) after it, so there's only fan material.

That said, someone suggested on Planewalker that Eberron is a plane that was locked off from the planes similarly to Athas, but in its own mini-cosmology, that includes 13 demiplanes orbiting it.

[Larkas]

Are there any examples of Astral demiplanes in canon? What would it take to construct one?

IIRC, the psionic version of Genesis creates its Demiplanes on the Astral. I'm curious regarding the first question too, though!


Two smaller questions for now. I'm curious about travel from and to Athas, considering it's in a messed up place that's not very well connected to the grea wheel? Also, Eberron, how would you facilitate travel from the normal Great Wheel cosmology to Eberron? What is Eberron in terms of the Great Wheel anyway?

Using 3e logic here, but you should be able to reach Eberron using the Plane of Shadows, as it seems to be an Alternate Material and, hence, in a parallel multiverse. Afro can probably supply other means, though. Athas, however, is definitely on the Prime Material, but hard as hell to reach thanks to the Gray. I don't think there's a reliable way to go to and from that Crystal Sphere, since traveling is not impossible but might as well be. You could probably try to escape using the Inner Planes, though... But don't quote me on that.
I have a question that will challenge Afro: why do people keep misspelling "Asmodeus"? XD

[Asmodai]

Using 3e logic here, but you should be able to reach Eberron using the Plane of Shadows, as it seems to be an Alternate Material and, hence, in a parallel multiverse. Afro can probably supply other means, though. Athas, however, is definitely on the Prime Material, but hard as hell to reach thanks to the Gray. I don't think there's a reliable way to go to and from that Crystal Sphere, since traveling is not impossible but might as well be. You could probably try to escape using the Inner Planes, though... But don't quote me on that.

I had the same general idea, i just wanted to consult the expert :)



I have a question that will challenge Afro: why do people keep misspelling "Asmodeus"? XD

Pssst, the name is a reference to a character wholly unrelated to Asmodeus, except for someone in the 80s getting the idea that it could be cool to base a name on a demon ;)

[Larkas]

Hmmmm, I have a question, though. Is it possible to think about Crystal Spheres with different cosmologies living alongside in the same Prime Material? Or do all the Crystal Spheres in the same Material necessarily share the same cosmology?


Pssst, the name is a reference to a character wholly unrelated to Asmodeus, except for someone in the 80s getting the idea that it could be cool to base a name on a demon ;)

Hey, no worries, I wasn't talking about you, another user around here just LOVES saying "Asmodeas" XD

[Proud Tortoise]

Eberron, of course, only came out long after Planescape ended, and there were no books even remotely connected to the cosmology (à la Manual of the Planes) after it, so there's only fan material.

That said, someone suggested on Planewalker that Eberron is a plane that was locked off from the planes similarly to Athas, but in its own mini-cosmology, that includes 13 demiplanes orbiting it.

It was created in isolation from the rest of the universe so that if the multiverse was destroyed, it would survive. Possibly. Not really.

[Chained Birds]

Are there any campaigns that would follow the Slaadi (I think that's the plural) as being the main enemy, or at least has them in a few encounters; or are they, by nature, too chaotic to make a game focused around them?

[123456789blaaa]

Reposting my question from the previous thread:


In your opinion, what sort of abilities would a Chosen of the Great Mother have (if such a thing existed)?

[afroakuma]

Are there any examples of Astral demiplanes in canon? What would it take to construct one?

There's only the one that I'm aware of: the Demiplane of Ectoplasm. One can construct a temporary Astral demiplane using the psionic power astral hospice or, of course, psionic genesis.


I really like what you did with the Aasimars. Any chance I can ask you to do something similar with the Tieflings/Chaonds/Zenythri?

Tieflings definitely.


Congrats on the second thread, Afro! :smallbiggrin:

Thanks! :smallsmile:


I've been loving the past thread, and still have about a quarter to go. It's gonna come in quite handy for my upcoming Planescape game. Thank you for the effort Afroakuma!

You're welcome!


Two smaller questions for now. I'm curious about travel from and to Athas, considering it's in a messed up place that's not very well connected to the grea wheel?

It would be more accurate to say it's disconnected, or that the connection has been frayed. It is possible to travel between Athas and the rest of the multiverse via magic or psionics, but the passage needs to occur through the Astral Plane, and has only a 35% chance of success. Ethereal passage is encumbered by the Border Ethereal of Athas, a realm known only as The Gray. Astral travel can also leave you stuck in The Gray, so it's not recommended.

Spelljamming into the Crimson Sphere is borderline impossible; there are no natural portals, and it seems to mock magical attempts to make an artificial breach. Psionic portals can be established, but there is a dangerous possibility that one will open the portal into the Gray rather than into the sphere itself.


Also, Eberron, how would you facilitate travel from the normal Great Wheel cosmology to Eberron? What is Eberron in terms of the Great Wheel anyway?

Officially, Eberron is not supposed to use the Great Wheel cosmology. However, there's no reason it can't be stitched in.

Eberron does have an Astral medium which can be traveled into, so it's possible to move through the Astral between Eberron and other worlds. It might also be the case that the demiplanes of Eberron are no more than pocket rifts to parts of the Great Wheel cosmology, and that the disruptions around Eberron are a result of the existence of a Far Realm-tainted Xoriat. They would certainly be interesting additions to the larger cosmology.

In either case, one can definitely use the Plane of Shadow to get to Eberron and back. That's what it's there for.

Eberron seems perfect for spelljamming, but I wouldn't make it easy. Great and dangerous shards might whirl through Siberyspace, the wardens of the Dragon Above's sacrifice. Eberron's sphere is likely muted to outsider gods, and clerics may find themselves weakening or losing focus.


Hmmmm, I have a question, though. Is it possible to think about Crystal Spheres with different cosmologies living alongside in the same Prime Material? Or do all the Crystal Spheres in the same Material necessarily share the same cosmology?

Technically, they all share the same cosmology, one reason why Athas was originally posited to exist in an alternate Prime. What they may not share, of course, is equal access to that cosmology; such things are, after all, dictated in great part by the nature of the crystal sphere in question.

[Larkas]

Hmmmmm, you draw a VERY interesting outline on Eberron as part of the Great Wheel cosmology. Care to expand a bit? While you're at it, do you have any possible explanations as to why Toril's cosmology is a bit different from the default Great Wheel?

[123456789blaaa]

Did you miss my previous question?


Reposting my question from the previous thread:


In your opinion, what sort of abilities would a Chosen of the Great Mother have (if such a thing existed)?

[afroakuma]

Hmmmmm, you draw a VERY interesting outline on Eberron as part of the Great Wheel cosmology. Care to expand a bit?

In what fashion?


While you're at it, do you have any possible explanations as to why Toril's cosmology is a bit different from the default Great Wheel?

The designers of 3.X campaign settings disjoined most of them from the Great Wheel. Stupidly. For all practical purposes, it's better to use the 2E version and skip the bizarre tree-thing from 3rd.

Chosen of the Great Mother...

Chosen of the Great Mother

"Chosen of the Great Mother" is a template that can be added to any beholder or beholderkin. A Chosen of the Great Mother uses the character's statistics and special abilities except as noted here. A Chosen of the Great Mother only has its power at the will of the Great Mother; should the beholder goddess decide to remove the Chosen status from the creature, it reverts to its normal abilities. There can be more than one Chosen of the Great Mother at a time.

Natural Armor The natural armor bonus of a Chosen of the Great Mother improves by 5.

Special Qualities A Chosen of the Great Mother retains all special abilities of the character and gains the following.

Atavistic Ideal (Ex) A Chosen of the Great Mother is recognized by all other beholders and beholderkin it encounters as the true form of beholder life. It gets a +4 bonus on Charisma-based checks to influence other beholders and beholderkin, and they begin with friendly attitudes toward the Chosen. A Chosen of the Great Mother still finds all others of its kind (except other Chosen) to be inferior mutations, but may decide to use them before executing them as abominations.

Damage Reduction (Ex) A Chosen of the Great Mother gains damage reduction 10/adamantine.

Immunities A Chosen of the Great Mother is immune to aging and does not age, though bonuses from aging accrue as normal. It is also immune to any mind-altering effects.

Mother's Gift (Sp) A Chosen of the Great Mother can replace up to two of its eyes or eye rays other than its central antimagic eye (if it possesses one) with ray spells of equivalent or lesser level than the effect being replaced. This replacement is permanent. If the Chosen loses this template, any eyes replaced with new effects are blinded for one month and cannot be healed short of a wish or miracle. Each eye thereafter regains its original ability.

Narrowed Cone (Su) A Chosen of the Great Mother with an antimagic eye can narrow the field temporarily as a swift action in order to land a magical effect. The Chosen can reduce its antimagic cone in overall size, to a minimum of a 5 ft. cone, or it can change the cone into a 5 ft. line with the cone's normal length. As a free action, the Chosen can restore its antimagic cone to normal size.

Resistances (Ex) A Chosen of the Great Mother has resistance to electricity 20, fire 20 and sonic 20.

Scrying Awareness (Su) A Chosen of the Great Mother is immediately aware of all attempts by others to use scrying effects to perceive it. It gets a +4 bonus to saving throws to resist scrying effects where applicable. At the Chosen's discretion, a creature scrying on the Chosen must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Chosen's HD + Chosen's Intelligence modifier) or take 1d6 Intelligence damage, 1d6 Wisdom damage and 1d6 Charisma drain. Those who suffer this effect report witnessing an eternal eye staring back at them.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Constant - endure elements, mage armor, protection from good, ray deflectionSpC, resistance, see invisibility. At will - charm monster (beholders and beholderkin only), detect magic, read magic, telekinesis, true strike. 3/day - disintegrate, dominate person, eyebite, true seeing. 1/day - dominate monster, finger of death. Caster level 20th, save DCs 10 + spell level + Chosen's Charisma modifier.

Targeting Rays (Sp) A Chosen of the Great Mother can replace the effect of any number of its eyes or eye rays with a targeting raySpC cast at 20th level as a swift action. This replacement lasts on each eye ray until that eye has made one attack.

Abilities A Chosen of the Great Mother increases its ability scores as follows: Str +4, Con +6, Wis -2, Cha +6.

Skills Same as base creature.

Feats The base creature gains two of the following as bonus feats: Agile TyrantLoM, Disintegration FinesseLoM, Disjunction RayLoM, Focused AntimagicLoM, MetarayLoM, Skilled TelekineticLoM, Weapon Focus (eye rays). Additionally, it gains Bane of the UncleanLoM as a bonus feat.

Challenge Rating As base creature +5.

Alignment Any evil.

Special Once per month, a Chosen of the Great Mother must kill and devour a beholder or beholderkin of a base stock other than its own. A Chosen of the Great Mother is forbidden from killing a hive mother for this purpose. Once per year, a Chosen will without warning vomit out an egg of unknown origin and must immediately conceal and abandon the egg. Any intention or attempt to destroy, investigate, keep or otherwise exert influence over the egg will result in the immediate loss of this template.

[123456789blaaa]

So...pretty ❤‿❤.

[Fable Wright]

How do things like Yggdrasil, the Infinite Stairway, and the River Styx cross planar boundaries? Are they backdoors through which planes are connected, or do they traverse transitive planes?

More what I'm asking is, how would you draw them on the Great Wheel?

[Yora]

Where did draegloths first appear?

[Larkas]

In what fashion?

Let's see... Something about the nature of the rifts, and why do you get to a "special" part of the plane when you travel to those places, instead of the full plane, for example? Maybe something about why do you have access only to those rifts instead of the full planes? I'm thinking that Eberron might be the lid stopping the Far Realm from bleeding into the multiverse, but I'm sure you can do much better than this.

Bottomline, expand however you feel like, really :smallsmile:

[Lord_Gareth]

Do you feel that it'd be possible to construct a "movable" demiplane - one where you can change the plane(s) it's attached to?

[LOTRfan]

The World Serpent Inn is described as a plane that appears on several separate planes at once, and from the outside appears to be a simple tavern. Inside, the tavern goes on forever.

I'm not sure if it's considered a demi-plane or a transitive plane in its own right, though. Since as far as I'm aware Afroakuma hasn't mentioned it, I'm assuming the former.

[Proud Tortoise]

I think it is considered a planar pathway, same as Yggdrasil or the Infinite Staircase. Speaking of, I'm pretty sure pathways don't travel through transitive planes (although they may connect to them at some point.)

[LOTRfan]

Oh, I hadn't considered the planar pathways. The World Serpent Inn does make more sense as one of those, I guess.

Speaking of planar pathways (sorry if this has been asked before), but can I get a definitive list of them?

[Proud Tortoise]

There's a right beaut of a list here. (http://www.mimir.net/pathways/index.shtml) I'm not sure if it's completely comprehensive, but it is quite good.

[Asmodai]

Okidoki. So the best way to get in or out of Athas is to find a Gate and Key, and that's not likely to be easy. Eberron now even kinda sounds easier to integrate! I have some ideas about having folks visit Eberron and Athas in their sojourns through the planes, and at least one of the players wants to come from Eberron... so :P

Do Exemplars need to eat or breathe, or do they just do it for fun? This was originally going to be a question about the Slaad, but i pretty much concluded straight away the answer would be:

"Slaad? Why yes, Slaad do breathe lollipops and methane and electricity except when they don't breathe or when pink strikes the cow in their ears while setting themselves on ice."

[Claudius Maximus]

What's the deal with summoned monsters? What is the experience of being summoned like for them? Do they give consent to being summoned in any way, or are they just whisked away? If the latter, how are they so firmly under the control of the caster? How do outsiders in general view the practice?

Also, has there ever been any elaboration on racial summoning powers like those held by certain fiends? All I know is the vague statement that it's a trade of sorts. Who enforces that? How does that work, especially for chaotic creatures like demons? How does it affect the "cultures" of such creatures?

[afroakuma]

How do things like Yggdrasil, the Infinite Stairway, and the River Styx cross planar boundaries?

Veeeery carefully.


Are they backdoors through which planes are connected

Essentially. In the case of the Rivers Styx and Oceanus, they are physically located on all the planes they touch; likewise Mount Olympus and Yggdrasil. The Infinite Staircase is the weird one because it's a space that's not in any given plane (except the foot of the Staircase, which is on Ysgard). Theory of choice here: it's inside the Spire. Doesn't make sense, but then, welcome to the Planes.


More what I'm asking is, how would you draw them on the Great Wheel?

Ehh... I suppose you could draw lines between the planes linked by the various paths. Except for the Staircase; that's unmappable. I just wouldn't bother; I'd map the path, not the route, if you get what I mean.


Where did draegloths first appear?

Menzoberranzan.


Let's see... Something about the nature of the rifts, and why do you get to a "special" part of the plane when you travel to those places, instead of the full plane, for example?

Probably specialized forms of color pool.


Maybe something about why do you have access only to those rifts instead of the full planes?

Crystal spheres are capable of limiting that sort of thing. It would be a trait of Siberyspace. You could easily walk out of the zone in question and end up in the rest of the plane easily enough, but first you land there.


I'm thinking that Eberron might be the lid stopping the Far Realm from bleeding into the multiverse, but I'm sure you can do much better than this.

Unlikely. The spills have been far worse in other places. Xoriat's small potatoes by comparison.


Do you feel that it'd be possible to construct a "movable" demiplane - one where you can change the plane(s) it's attached to?

No.


The World Serpent Inn is described as a plane that appears on several separate planes at once, and from the outside appears to be a simple tavern. Inside, the tavern goes on forever.

I'm not sure if it's considered a demi-plane or a transitive plane in its own right, though. Since as far as I'm aware Afroakuma hasn't mentioned it, I'm assuming the former.

It's not really a plane; it's a region like the Infinite Staircase, a transplanar conduit of mysterious nature. If it were a demiplane, it could be located externally.

[Gildedragon]

What is the relationship between the vestige Otiax and the incatnation-summoned Dweller? They both seem eldritch abominations with a thing for doors. BFFs? One and the same? Something else entirely?

[Lord_Gareth]

Can any force change the location of Outer Planes, altering what planes they border with?

[afroakuma]

Do Exemplars need to eat or breathe, or do they just do it for fun? This was originally going to be a question about the Slaad, but i pretty much concluded straight away the answer would be:

"Slaad? Why yes, Slaad do breathe lollipops and methane and electricity except when they don't breathe or when pink strikes the cow in their ears while setting themselves on ice."

Native outsiders need to eat and breathe. Extraplanar outsiders do not. Exemplars are extraplanar.

Also, people, seriously: you can ask slaad questions.


What's the deal with summoned monsters? What is the experience of being summoned like for them? Do they give consent to being summoned in any way, or are they just whisked away? If the latter, how are they so firmly under the control of the caster? How do outsiders in general view the practice?

Summoning is akin to astral projection; you yank an essence copy across the boundary to serve you for a brief time. When you do, the original is pulled along for the ride, temporarily vanishing. This is because the creature being summoned is essentially its essence; when you pull on it to create your copy, there's nothing left to remain behind as a shell except its link to the plane it came from.

Summoning feels a lot like getting lasso'd and pulled backward. It's mildly disorienting and not typically consensual (though check your summoning variant rules), which is why some beings take pains to protect themselves from it. Once summoned, the being is in a sort of dream-state. It takes actions, but they don't feel elective. A summoned being understands what's taking place, though, and will remember it. Outsiders are not a fan of being summoned by non-outsiders as a general rule, though some look on the bright side, whatever that ends up being.


Also, has there ever been any elaboration on racial summoning powers like those held by certain fiends? All I know is the vague statement that it's a trade of sorts. Who enforces that? How does that work, especially for chaotic creatures like demons? How does it affect the "cultures" of such creatures?

Suppose that instead of 911, you had to dial a random phone number in an emergency. Suppose that person has caller ID. Now suppose such emergency calls are mandatory for everyone to answer.

When Osyluth A summons Osyluth B, B gains A's cosmic phone number. B can use that information to its advantage either personally (hey, A has useful magic items, he'd make a particularly good summon) or commercially (trading A's number to a being who might make use of the universal cheat code to summon that particular osyluth).

These don't go into trade wars, mind you - you either have the number or you don't, and giving it away or using it relieves you of it personally. What often happens, however, is that since there's no reprisal possible (if you know the party you're calling in advance, you can "block" your own number), it's a free summon in the future for Osyluth B and therefore a really predictable and unwanted obligation for Osyluth A.

So, you may ask, what about summoning weaker allies, the kind that don't have an innate ability to summon your kind? Again, though, the fiend with your number doesn't need to use it personally, and when it comes to weaker fiends looking for status, clout and power, having something valuable to market is very desirable; do you want your favor chit being passed around by ambitious and petty inferiors?


What is the relationship between the vestige Otiax and the incatnation-summoned Dweller? They both seem eldritch abominations with a thing for doors. BFFs? One and the same? Something else entirely?

It would be interesting if they were linked, but there is nothing to suggest that. The Dweller on the Threshold is associated only with knowledge, and not specifically concerned with the opening of doors (that's just the most obvious question one would ask about a door). The Key to the Gate is very much associated with air, fog and the opening of locks, seals and portals. Again, Otiax is obsessed with locks and keys, whereas the Dweller will mock you if you ask about anything that is not a door (which includes that other classic locked thing from a dungeon, the treasure chest).


Can any force change the location of Outer Planes, altering what planes they border with?

No.

[Lord_Gareth]

So, dem tieflings...

[ShadowFireLance]

So, Would the Anathema ever come into publishing?
:smallwink:
What? Everyone want's you to work your Awesome Homebrewing, so, I figured I would hop aboard...:smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

Tieflings come from seven different planes; the traits of the seven should come through in one's bloodline. Here are some suggested traits by plane.

Acheron
• Rustlike discoloration near eyes, nose and mouth; touch lightly rusts bare iron or steel.
• Steel-tinted skin and hard, unnaturally angular features.
• Thick, wild, luxurious hair and striped skin.
• Catlike eyes, talons and reversible hands.
• Edged and bladed joints that tear through normal clothing.
• Loud cacophonous voice, gaze causes discomfort and slowly damages solid objects with a thin layer of petrification.
• Aura of resignation and fatalism/competence and sobriety.

Baator
• Red skin, small fangs, miniature horns, sharp fingernails.
• Long forehead, piggish nose, bestial eyes and sharp teeth.
• Thorny skin and long gnarled claws.
• Unnaturally pale, clammy skin and glowing red eyes.
• Devastating physical beauty marred by eyes that turn black and gold when observing suffering or thinking cruel thoughts.
• Unmistakeable horns on the brow as well as darkened and scaly skin.
• Aura of pain and cruelty/authority and trustworthiness.

Gehenna
• Perpetually filthy skin and hair and a bird's beak.
• Large, canine jaw and muzzle with green-tinted skin.
• Steaming crown that smells of burning hair, trail of ashes.
• Yellow-glowing eyes, fine red cracking on skin and a stink of brimstone.
• Long, bony arms, creaking teeth and glittering crystalline eyes.
• Greasy gray skin and a lampreylike mouth.
• Aura of perfidy and selfishness/cunning and danger.

Hades
• Vestigal wings, finned ears, dog nose and fangs.
• Chitin-coated skin and lanky limbs.
• Reddish, crusty skin and insectile mandibles.
• Dark gray skin that seems to suck away light and color.
• Purple skin knobbled with warts and stray black hairs.
• Skinny build, strangely textured skin and large, gleaming, featureless eyes.
• Aura of despair and nihilism/power and insight.

Carceri
• Toadlike eyes and tarry black sweat.
• Skin coated in oily, viscous slime.
• Red-tinted skin and hair, bruises that form easily and turn black before healing.
• Acid-etched runnels plunging down from the eyes and/or mouth.
• Batwings behind the ears that unfurl when excited.
• Footsteps make the sound of dragging chains, voice sounds like deadbolts locking or shackles closing.
• Aura of claustrophobia and suspicion/cohesiveness and vindication.

The Abyss
• Scaly legs and a six-armed shadow.
• Disproportionately large, shaggy-haired head and fangs.
• Shrieking, howling or grunting voice and poisonous stench.
• Unearthly beauty with glowing, featureless eyes and a wake of fatigued, despondent and unhealthy would-be lovers.
• Gaze that causes vertigo and a presence that distorts sounds slightly.
• Blackened skin, slightly glowing bones and a snake's tongue.
• Aura of terror and discord/strength and fierceness.

Pandemonium
• Fragile, breakable porcelain face that slowly regrows over the bare muscle and bone.
• Large striped quills sticking out of the head, shoulders and/or arms.
• Voice of shrieking and cacophonous whispers.
• Hollowed, grayed physique and sharp bony talons.
• Often surrounded by a powerful, tearing wind that leaves bloody streaks and has created permanent whiplike scars.
• Black eyes and skin that never fully degrades, creating gray, decayed, peeling layers that flap about like tattered robes.
• Aura of madness and loss/secrecy and age.

If you want to generate a random tiefling with the above, do 1d8 for plane (roll of 8 indicates dual ancestry, roll twice), then 1d8 for characteristic (roll of 8 indicates slightly stronger celestial features, roll twice). If you want a really exotic one, do 1d10 for one or both of the above and treat 9s and 10s as 8s. For the "aura" effects, the two listed effects are for good beings/neutral and evil beings respectively. None of the above have mechanical effects... but they could if you wanted to add them.

[Kane0]

How long would it take to travel from one plane to another via means of the river styx, yggdrasil, etc?

[Chilingsworth]

Do you feel that it'd be possible to construct a "movable" demiplane - one where you can change the plane(s) it's attached to?

There is an example that's kinda close, functionally.

The planar metropolis of Union. It exists on its own demiplane, and is easily reachable only by one of the portals it creates. It shifts these portals to different places on different planes according to a schedule, to facilitate trade. It's a merchant city run by the Mercane and is detailed in the Epic Level Handbook.

[Gildedragon]

Can any force change the location of Outer Planes, altering what planes they border with?

What about the Observatorium Demiplane. It teleporting around and into other planes changes what planes it borders no?

What about bags of holding type objects or a demiplane with a singular entry/exit that can be moved around?

[Jigokuro]

There is an example that's kinda close, functionally.

The planar metropolis of Union. It exists on its own demiplane, and is easily reachable only by one of the portals it creates. It shifts these portals to different places on different planes according to a schedule, to facilitate trade. It's a merchant city run by the Mercane and is detailed in the Epic Level Handbook.

For that matter, any old genesised demiplane can alter its connections with the gate spell. However, that is not the same as borders, and the demiplane will still be floating in the same chuck of the ethereal as always.

Back briefly to the Choosen template: I really like giving them targeting ray like that, but is it not made irrelevant by at-will true strike?


Edit:

What about the Observatorium Demiplane. It teleporting around and into other planes changes what planes it borders no?
I don't know about that thing, but-

What about bags of holding type objects or a demiplane with a singular entry/exit that can be moved around?
Bags of holding and the like are extraplanar (/non-planar, same thing) spaces with aren't the same, or even similar. However bags of devouring (I think they are called that- the things like 'holding but 1-way mouths) are actually gates to a specific other plane, (a plane inhabited by big transdimensionally-mouthed whales, apparently*) but that goes back to my above point of gate connections being not the same as borders.

*I only know that from this thread a long ways back, lol.

[TuggyNE]

Also, people, seriously: you can ask slaad questions.

Of course, but will they give you useful answers, or gibberish, or just laugh at you? :smalltongue:

[Proud Tortoise]

Of course, but will they give you useful answers, or gibberish, or just laugh at you? :smalltongue:

Well, that depends. Is the slaad more powerful than you are? Is it raining? If so, what? What day of the week is it? When did you arrive? What's the price of eggs in Sigil? Who are you? Do you like strawberry jam? How many boards could the Mongols horde if the Mongol hordes got bored? Do you smoke? Do you need a light?

If you can answer all these, you can predict what the slaad will say.

[Chained Birds]

Also, people, seriously: you can ask slaad questions.

It wasn't the best question ever, but...


Are there any campaigns that would follow the Slaadi (I think that's the plural) as being the main enemy, or at least has them in a few encounters; or are they, by nature, too chaotic to make a game focused around them?

Not sure if you meant asking you questions about the Slaad or the nature of asking the Slaad Questions. :smallconfused:

[afroakuma]

How long would it take to travel from one plane to another via means of the river styx, yggdrasil, etc?

Depends where you're going, where you're coming from and how good your navigator is. Probably at least a day or two, though.


What about the Observatorium Demiplane. It teleporting around and into other planes changes what planes it borders no?

What about bags of holding type objects or a demiplane with a singular entry/exit that can be moved around?

1) He was asking about Outer Planes changing their borders.
2) With regard to demiplanes, where they link to is irrelevant. The Observatorium exhibits characteristics of a Material Plane demiplane, but given its description it may be no true demiplane at all.

[Proud Tortoise]

Theory of choice here: it's inside the Spire. Doesn't make sense, but then, welcome to the Planes.


Nope. The Spire is the anchor for the multiverse and contains at least one of its creators.

[Tzardok]

Okay, I am back and I have brought a few questions:smallbiggrin::

What has "Complete Psionics" done to be considered a "crime against the whole multiverse"?

You said, to properly model the traits of the semielemental planes you'd need the "suppression" trait from planewalker, but I couldn't find anything like that. Care to explain?

I really liked your threads about Limbo and Pandemonium. Will you do similar things for the other planes?

Last but not least, I plan to do a bit homebrew about rilmani and your take on rilmani leadership is very interesting. When I post my bit about rilmani in this forum, am I allowed to incorporate it? *puppy eyes*

[afroakuma]

Okay, I am back and I have brought a few questions:smallbiggrin::

What has "Complete Psionics" done to be considered a "crime against the whole multiverse"?

It's just not considered a very good book.


You said, to properly model the traits of the semielemental planes you'd need the "suppression" trait from planewalker, but I couldn't find anything like that. Care to explain?

Hm. They use it for the Plane of Salt, but it doesn't look like they went any further with it. Most unfortunate.


I really liked your threads about Limbo and Pandemonium. Will you do similar things for the other planes?

That's the hope, but I can't make guarantees.


Last but not least, I plan to do a bit homebrew about rilmani and your take on rilmani leadership is very interesting. When I post my bit about rilmani in this forum, am I allowed to incorporate it? *puppy eyes*

I won't say no, but do remember that I have my own ideas on those things and won't necessarily endorse yours.

[Norin]

Got any info, or source material i can read myself, for the Githvyrik?

Or is it sparse at best?

[afroakuma]

Got any info, or source material i can read myself, for the Githvyrik?

Or is it sparse at best?

Githvyrik are a thing from novels; they're not really a "race" of gith, but rather just a small number of unique individuals affiliated with neither the githzerai nor the githyanki. It's suggested that most of them trend toward high levels, but again, everything about them is individual. There aren't many hard generalizations I could make about the githvyrik (and before you ask, the ones I can make are "they're related to the other gith races," "there are very few of them," "they are all unique and do not share nonsuperficial traits with their kin" and "they do not associate with one another").

[Norin]

As i suspected, thanks.

Ive read the novels with Vhostym in it, and suspected it was more or less the most extensive source of info available.

[afroakuma]

As i suspected, thanks.

Ive read the novels with Vhostym in it, and suspected it was more or less the most extensive source of info available.

Well, it's the only source available, so... :smalltongue:

Happens a lot with the novels.

[Answerer]

What has "Complete Psionics" done to be considered a "crime against the whole multiverse"?
It was written, in part, by a man who has an admitted and avowed dislike for psionics.

That should tell you a lot.

The book contained utterly unnecessary nerfs to one of the coolest/most popular psionic powers, astral construct.

Two of the three base classes, the Divine Mind and Lurk, are extremely poorly-made, and very weak.

Worse, the Divine Mind is a travesty against all psionic fluff ever written. Psionics comes from within, the power of your own mind against the multiverse. Yet, somehow, Divine Minds can fall. Like a Paladin.

The overwhelming majority of game-breaking psionics tricks rely on Complete Psionics, particularly synchronicity.

The Anarchic Initiate prestige class is, 1. the only Psionics prestige class published in a book that has 10/10 manifesting, which is poor design, 2. has rather powerful class features on top of that, and 3. is more easily entered and more powerful for a Psion than it is for a Wilder, despite its core feature being a better version of Wild Surge.

Also, an absurdly large number of pages, I swear, consist only of feats in the following format: "Weapon Name Mind Blade Prerequisite: ability to form a Mind Blade, proficiency with weapon name. Benefit: you can form your Mind Blade into a weapon name instead of a short sword. It uses the stats of weapon name as its base weapon stats [...]" Literally, that exact form, repeated like fifty times.

It really is up there with Savage Species and Serpent Kingdoms for worst book ever printed for 3.x, and Savage Species, at least, deserves a pass of sorts because it wasn't really supposed to be Dungeons & Dragons material at all but an entirely separate spin-off product. The spin-off was cancelled and the existing material was hastily shoved into a D&D product, right in the middle of the rewrite for 3.5 so the material is somewhere between 3.0 and 3.5.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The book contained utterly unnecessary nerfs to one of the coolest/most popular psionic powers, astral construct.

[...]

Also, an absurdly large number of pages, I swear, consist only of feats in the following format: "Weapon Name Mind Blade Prerequisite: ability to form a Mind Blade, proficiency with weapon name. Benefit: you can form your Mind Blade into a weapon name instead of a short sword. It uses the stats of weapon name as its base weapon stats [...]" Literally, that exact form, repeated like fifty times.

Don't forget the note that said DR applies to Metacreativity blasting powers because [handwave] while spells were unaffected, because screw shapers. Or the dozens of racial feats of the form "[Race] [Power Name]: You can use the [power name] psi-like ability granted by your [race] heritage two more times per day, Special: Each time you take this you gain two additional daily uses of your [power name] psi-like ability"...or the various "Use racial psi-like ability X instead of racial psi-like ability Y" feats. They could all have been handled by a single stackable feat granting you +2 use of all racial PLAs, a la Magic in the Blood, and a single feat (call it "Racial Versatility" or something) with a lookup table for new powers.

If you needed any proof that WotC writers are paid by the word, this book was it. :smallsigh:

[Eldan]

Ooh. Dicey is here. Now the Planescape party is really getting started. Just lacking Tygre, now.

The Divine Mind was pretty much the worst fluff I've ever read in D&D.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Ooh. Dicey is here. Now the Planescape party is really getting started. Just lacking Tygre, now.

I wasn't aware I had a particularly Planescape-y reputation...and even if I were considered somewhat of an expert, I would be but an Aurumach to afro's Philosopher. :smallamused:

[afroakuma]

I wasn't aware I had a particularly Planescape-y reputation...and even if I were considered somewhat of an expert, I would be but an Aurumach to afro's Philosopher. :smallamused:

I'm always surprised to find people actually read what I write.

[Asmodai]

Since we are getting into books... in the past thread you pretty much panned Guide to the Astral Plane and concluded Monte Cook was an idiot.

I have to admit that I only read the Githyanki chapter, and that seemed interesting enough, but I'm yet to read the rest. What horrors await me, and is this the worst thing he did?

[Proud Tortoise]

What's wrong with Guide to the Astral Plane? (It's the planescape book, right, not a different Guide?)

[afroakuma]

Guide to the Astral Plane

Oh there are interesting bits, and some useful ideas, but what I was panning was this early devotion to some high-concept blather that he couldn't even commit to in his own book, not to mention that ran counter to other depictions prior, contemporary and successive. I'd rather not get into it.

[Jigokuro]

There hasn't really been a meaty kickoff of a question yet in this thread, methinks. Enough tangential chit-chat, I got something that should be fun:

Considering how long ago their relations where made, how does the connection between Pazuzu and Asmodeus stand at the current time? I understand that Asy basically owes Paz the biggest favor in all of ever, legally, and that it can be called in pretty much whenever, but that Paz would rather just keep that power hanging than use it. How can Asmodeus really plot any long term plans in total secret when, apparently, an chaotic obyrith lord has him by the short hairs? (On that note, why hasn't Paz done something, ya know, chaotic with his position yet? Just how long-term of a cunning plan can that alignment support?)
I believe I read that the two were/are in cahoots to perpetuate the blood war as it helps them both; just how much of Asmodeus' plans is Paz likely in on?

P.S. I wrote that very sleepy, it is probably less well put together than I can currently tell. If it makes no sense when I reread it tomorrow I'll clean it up.

[Yora]

Menzoberranzan.
I meant what source, but this probably indicates it was a Salvatore novel.

[Norin]

I meant what source, but this probably indicates it was a Salvatore novel.

First place i seem to recall reading about Draegloth was in the War of the Spider Queen series.

The first printing of that book was in '02. Then again they appeared in Monster's of Faerûn in '01 too.

That's the earliest mentions i know of, but maybe there are other sources too.

[Yora]

They are implied in one scene in Homeland, which is from 1990. But it wasn't actually stated that half-demons are produced.
I think. I was 15 and it was the first english novel I had ever read. My recollection of that part was mostly "WTF?". :smallbiggrin:

[Occasional Sage]

The Observatorium exhibits characteristics of a Material Plane demiplane, but given its description it may be no true demiplane at all.

I'd like an elaboration on that please. What makes you doubt it's a demiplane and what do you suspect it really is, for starters?

[afroakuma]

Considering how long ago their relations where made, how does the connection between Pazuzu and Asmodeus stand at the current time?

Casual search doesn't reveal any links between Pazuzu and Asmodeus that would be relevant to this thread (the only link I turned up that suggests anything like the magnitude of what you're talking about is in a 4E sourcebook, and 4E has no place in this thread). Was there something else you were referencing?


I meant what source, but this probably indicates it was a Salvatore novel.

Monsters of Faerun, 2001. Fairly certain they didn't appear in a novel as "draegloths" prior to that.


I'd like an elaboration on that please. What makes you doubt it's a demiplane and what do you suspect it really is, for starters?

The Observatorium is described as being located "outside" the cosmology (itself a rather silly notion) and moves to or is linked to nearly every other plane (how this manifests is not elaborated upon). It is suggested to carry its own Border Ethereal with it as well as coterminous Shadow links, effectively making it a Material Plane tumor bobbing around the Inner and Outer Planes. None of these are traits of a demiplane.

Additionally, it is described as a "dimension" several times, which is also a misnomer but suggests it's not a proper demiplane. Given what it's capable of, it's also poorly designed; DC 30 is well within the capacity of several powerful planar beings to resist consistently, not to mention those powerful beings who would have an interest in controlling such a tool and are not vulnerable to Wisdom damage.

The Observatorium is most likely some mad wizard's construct, located somewhere like the Plane of Vacuum or a pocket of Agathion, which through the same mechanism that lets it spy on anything also inadvertently creates rifts across the planes that, though relatively small and shortlived, inevitably draw in creatures who continue putting the structure to use, perpetuating this rift activity.

[Go!Go!Go!]

speaking of the plane of vacuum.....

this might be a dumn question, but is there ANYTHING in it? anything at all?

[Yora]

Monsters of Faerun, 2001. Fairly certain they didn't appear in a novel as "draegloths" prior to that.
Interesting. I remember reading MoF for the first time and thinking "so they DID summon the glabrezu for what I think they did". :smallbiggrin:

[Proud Tortoise]

speaking of the plane of vacuum.....

this might be a dumn question, but is there ANYTHING in it? anything at all?

Well, there are elementals. And pockets of other elements. And the Doomguard, I think it is, have a fortress there, on the border of the Negative Energy Plane.

[Gildedragon]

If a handy haversack containing a lead box containing a bag of holding is put into a portable hole, is a planar rift still opened?

Can one Gate into/out of a bag of holding?

[Yora]

Lead only blocks divinations. It's still an extradimensional space in an extradimensional space. It's not like their magic energies are interfering with each other, but that reality has to devide by zero.

[Aliek]

Uh... A pretty basic question for a planes neophyte, layers of a plane.

Mainly, how is a layer divided from the others, and how does one go about to travel between those layers? Anything else important about the "layer division"?

[Fable Wright]

If you put a Bag of Holding in a Portable Hole on an outer plane, would the resulting vortex suck you into the Ordial Plane?

If not, do you have any theories on how one could get to the theoretical Ordial Plane, barring DM Fiat?

[Proud Tortoise]

If the DM doesn't want you to travel to the Ordial, you can rest assured that you will not travel there.


Uh... A pretty basic question for a planes neophyte, layers of a plane.

Mainly, how is a layer divided from the others, and how does one go about to travel between those layers? Anything else important about the "layer division"?

...I still don't think Bytopia should be considered two layers...

[Larkas]

If the DM doesn't want you to travel to the Ordial, you can rest assured that you will not travel there.

I think you can be even more emphatic: you will only travel there if, and only IF, your DM wants you to travel there.

This (http://mimir.net/mapinfinity/burbank.html) is a little piece that I, personally, love when I think about the Ordial:

The Ordial Plane
"While we have been unable to find evidence of portals to the Ordial Plane, this does not necessarily disprove its existence; there are apparently few portals to the Astral or Ethereal because of a lack of doorways to which they can be fixed. However, by measuring the Planar Flux Potentials between the Inner and Outer Planes we have determined the magical frequency at which this plane should be present. We may be able to calibrate our tuning fork for use in a plane shift spell...

...Corsica attempted the plane shift using our calculations, and disappeared without trace. An hour later, she slowly re-materialised, covered in cuts and wounds, and only vaguely aware of her surroundings. Alas, she could remember nothing of her journey. More disturbingly, there were marks on her hands which appeared to be symbols. For all our divinations, we have been unable to ascertain if they mean anything."

So, even if you go there, chances are you won't even know you did, or remember anything. :smallsmile:

[afroakuma]

speaking of the plane of vacuum.....

this might be a dumn question, but is there ANYTHING in it? anything at all?

Oh sure; there's an entity known as Sun Sing that dwells, lurks and looms mysteriously in a pocket of negative energy; there's the Doomguard's Citadel Exhalus; and there's a massive and unfriendly beholder known as Zal the Destroyer. There's also a strange fungus known as egarus, which you'll want to avoid with extreme prejudice, and a type of undead known as the vacuous.


If a handy haversack containing a lead box containing a bag of holding is put into a portable hole, is a planar rift still opened?

Yup.


Can one Gate into/out of a bag of holding?

Ehh... "out of" is pretty sketchy, but "into" is a definite no.


Uh... A pretty basic question for a planes neophyte, layers of a plane.

Mainly, how is a layer divided from the others, and how does one go about to travel between those layers? Anything else important about the "layer division"?

Layers are metaphysically divided; you don't just dig downward in Hell or the Abyss to get to the next layer, nor do you simply fly upward on Celestia. The nature of this division varies by plane, but the only really unique one is the layer division on Bytopia, which is wide open and transparent (the two layers face one another and you can fly or climb between them). Other planes typically restrict layer passage in some form; usually there are key portals that lead between layers and not much choice in attempting other crossings. Where planar pathways are available, they can facilitate layer crossing, but the pathways don't touch every layer.


If you put a Bag of Holding in a Portable Hole on an outer plane, would the resulting vortex suck you into the Ordial Plane?

Nope. They tried that. Pissed off the astral dreadnought.


If not, do you have any theories on how one could get to the theoretical Ordial Plane, barring DM Fiat?

The Ordial Plane requires DM fiat to even exist. :smalltongue: I've seen theories involving a calculated attunement for plane shift, stepping beyond the 27th ring of the Outlands, passing through the center of an Elemental Plane... none seem to have any basis in fact, nor do they show any signs of success. If it is indeed located between the Inner and Outer Planes, however, then it should be theoretically possible in some way to move off of one of those planes and into the Ordial.

[Fable Wright]

Nope. They tried that. Pissed off the astral dreadnought.

What is the astral dreadnought? I thought it was a type of ship...

[Larkas]

What is the astral dreadnought? I thought it was a type of ship...

See if this helps.


Outside of Nothing
"Our next experiment took us to the Astral, where we attempted to test the fabric of the plane. Planologists believe that the Astral is in fact a non-plane; an infinite plane with infinitesimal volume. We hypothesised that if we could find a way to pierce the planar material as we had with the Inner Planes, we might be able to take a look at the outside of the Multiverse. See, if we are inside the Multiverse and it stretches in all directions infinitely around us, we could think of it as a sphere. What lies beyond the sphere? Since it has no edges, we cannot pass beyond them, so the only alternative is to travel through another dimensional space to view the Multiverse from the vantage point that gives.

Corsica suggests an analogy with a cube. It has three dimensions, yet it casts a two dimensional shadow. Depending upon the orientation of the light source, the shadow will be of a different shape. Now, imagine a four dimensional shape. It's impossible to picture it (though I believe elementals can). When a light is shone upon it, it casts a three-dimensional shadow! What if out own multiverse were four dimensional, and we only see its 'shadow'? Depending upon which direction the 'light' comes from, we see very different shapes...this explains the different natures of each plane. Where the shadow varies only slightly, a new planar layer is formed. Perhaps the infinite nature of the Abyss can be explained by a predominantly spherical part of the 4D Multiverse, which gives a very large number of similar shadows?

If we could travel outside of the spatial dimensions which we normally occupy, according to this theory, we could look upon the true shape of the planes...well, that was our reasoning. The choice of the Astral was simple; the planar barrier is very different there, and the place is relatively unpopulated. If anything were to go awry in our experiment, the only injured parties (besides ourselves) would be githyanki, and nobody would really shed a tear over them.

The plan was to force open a couple of extra-dimensional spaces (portable holes, both), and, in combination with a limited wish spell and heavy protective magics, try and induce an Astral rift through which we could slip.

The stage was set, the magics ready, and using telekinesis Glithil placed one inside the other, and lo and behold the very Astral plane ripped asunder. Like air into a vacuum the rift began to suck the fabric of the Multiverse outside (at least, we presumed that's where the rift led). Steeling our protections, we advanced towards the rift (though we were already being drawn closer by the force of its suction). Suddenly, however, from nowhere, the horrific Astral Dreadnought spun towards us, screaming blue murder from is terrible jaws!

Faced with the choice of leaping into the unknown, staying to apologise to the furious dreadnought or fleeing the plane completely, we plumped for the latter and made our exit gracefully with a mass teleport. Just in the nick of time too. Scrying from the safety of the other side of a nearby colour pool showed us the rift healing itself slowly, though the dreadnought seemed to be tending the plane like a mother would a baby. Zoology never was my strong point though, so I'll leave the conclusions to be drawn to some other cutter.

We may yet return to the Astral to repeat the experiment, but with the dreadnought sniffing round our tails I think we might leave it a while..."

[Clistenes]

If a handy haversack containing a lead box containing a bag of holding is put into a portable hole, is a planar rift still opened?

What has the lead box to do with anything else? I can't find any reference of lead boxes interancting in any way with bags of holding, portable holes, handy harversacks or any other kind of non-dimensional spaces.

[afroakuma]

What is the astral dreadnought? I thought it was a type of ship...

It's this friendly thing.


http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1345/80/1345802498250.jpg

It's veeeeery friendly to anything traveling through the Astral Plane.

[Larkas]

It's this friendly thing.


http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1345/80/1345802498250.jpg

It's veeeeery friendly to anything traveling through the Astral Plane.

Oooooooh! Didn't know there was an image! :smalleek:

[Clistenes]

It's this friendly thing.


http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1345/80/1345802498250.jpg

It's veeeeery friendly to anything traveling through the Astral Plane.

Awwww...! I want to cuddle it! Is it a baby boy Dreadnaught, or a baby girl Dreadnaught? :smallsmile:

[Eldan]

There's also a Di'Terlizzi image. Probably in Guide to the Astral Plane?

http://www.rmichelson.com/Artist_Pages/Diterlizzi/MagicCards/Astral-Dreadnought.jpg

[Gildedragon]

What has the lead box to do with anything else? I can't find any reference of lead boxes interancting in any way with bags of holding, portable holes, handy harversacks or any other kind of non-dimensional spaces.

I don't know if it makes a difference or not. That's the scenario that my players presented me. Don't know if causes a rift or not because, as far as I recall/understand extradimensional spaces don't work inside one another, so is the bag really in the hole or not? And does lead affect this in anyway (I'm assuming no seeing the general bewilderment over that detail)?

Where does the stuff for sonic damage conjurations come from? Is there a plane of sound?

Are there any spells that use the elemental planes of wood or metal?

[CRtwenty]

Been lurking this thread for awhile. Finally registered to ask some questions. :smallbiggrin:

I've got some questions about the Illithid and the Gith races. Has there been any information on what catastrophe caused the Illithid to do their hail mary time travel pass? Did they bring the Gith's ancestors with them? Or did they subjugate them after arriving in the past?

[Asmodai]

Faces of Evil speaks how the Baatezu track all of their number most closely, tracking their record and appraising their worth for the purposes of promoting or demoting them. It mentions whole ministries that deal with these things for the fiends of Baator. It also speaks how the vaults were never breached by anyone... it screams to be used.

Was this ever developed further ? I'm interested in having a devil hire the PC's to get in and do some... dirty work for them :)

If there is no formal fleshing out of this, would you care to help me out with how such ministries would be set up? What kind of demons would be in charge and how they would operate?

For now I have but this lovely visual of Lemures of dead sages, demonologists, wizards and necromancers fleshcrafted into the walls of great ministerial halls and lobotomised into data savants that only serve to spew and store the information for their overlords. Cursed to forever know some of the biggest secrets of Creation but never to be aware or able to use them.

[Asmodai]

There's also a Di'Terlizzi image. Probably in Guide to the Astral Plane?

http://www.rmichelson.com/Artist_Pages/Diterlizzi/MagicCards/Astral-Dreadnought.jpg

Nah,Planescape Monstrous Compendium Volume 2. It looks way more impressive when it takes up most of two pages, though :)

[Fable Wright]

Is there any evidence that there were once other planes (infinite planes, not demiplanes) outside of the Great Wheel? As in, not the current inner, outer, transitive, or material planes?

[Gildedragon]

From what I gather the orb of X spells conjure energy from one of the planes. if so, what plane does orb of sound correspond to?

[Larkas]

Is there any evidence that there were once other planes (infinite planes, not demiplanes) outside of the Great Wheel? As in, not the current inner, outer, transitive, or material planes?

Again I refer you to this (http://mimir.net/mapinfinity/burbank.html) piece. It's fanmade, but it's good stuff. Specifically:


Beyond the Boundaries
"We have entered a new plane which our mimir is unable to identify. We found its entrance far below the surface of the Outlands; we followed deep underground passages, using passwall spells and a rod of passage when the going became blocked. Thirty three miles beneath we found a vast underground cavern with weird portals the like of which we have never before seen; they opened to the touch of living flesh, apparently draining life energy to sustain themselves.

A warp sense spell revealed that the destination was safe, so we established our abjurations and took a jaunt through to see what we would find. The sensation we felt when travelling through the portal was unlike that of a normal portal from the Cage. Rather than being instantaneous it took several seconds, and once our eyes had adjusted to the darkness we could see we were travelling very rapidly through a tube with a mesh of silver bands around and along it. I must admit, it reminded me rather of the Temporal Prime plane, though our mimir did not identify it as such.

Moments later we emerged into a landscape that I simply cannot describe well with words. The place was distorted and twisted, as though the dimensions we take for granted had been crumpled by some cosmic hand. Our mimir appeared dormant; it would not respond. All divination magics we tried to use failed, and though clairsentient psionic powers revealed that there were life forms present in our range of sight, we could not see them. Corsica suggests they were out of phase, though I believe they may have been under the influence of Wild magics like the there/not there spell. It is hard to explain, but I got the distinct impression that space and time were growing and shrinking like living, breathing things here.

The portal behind us, which had remained open for several minutes, began to throb and shrink. Lest we become hipped in that bizarre place, we quickly returned through the portal. Strangely, we appeared not in the cavern beneath the Outlands but near the base of the Spire itself. This is doubly curious since the Spire does not have an Astral connection...we have no coherent theory as yet to explain this, except that perhaps we stumbled across the entrance to an ancient outer plane that had been crushed by the expansion of the planes of the Great Ring we know today. Maybe these ancient planes are relegated to the spaces above the seven heavens of Mount Celestia, below the six hells of Carceri, or outside the layers of Bytopia? But this sounds too improbable, surely..."

That said, there's always the Far Plane...

[Xenogears]

Been lurking this thread for awhile. Finally registered to ask some questions. :smallbiggrin:

I've got some questions about the Illithid and the Gith races. Has there been any information on what catastrophe caused the Illithid to do their hail mary time travel pass? Did they bring the Gith's ancestors with them? Or did they subjugate them after arriving in the past?

The catastrophe was the onset of the end of time itself. The universe was going to die and the illithid with it and so they went back in time. Now their major goal is to make sure that they come to exist in the future.

They enslaved the Gith after coming backwards in time (which was roughly 2,000 years ago).

[Yora]

Is there any evidence that there were once other planes (infinite planes, not demiplanes) outside of the Great Wheel? As in, not the current inner, outer, transitive, or material planes?

The 3rd Edition Manual of the Planes says yes. The Plane of Shadow seems to be the only way to go from one multiverse to another, as they all have their own Astral Planes (if they have one). There is even one planar map that shows the Great Wheel and two other Multiverses connected that way.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/ce6b7121be5960897ff15037aae274eb/tumblr_miob43a8Iv1rud7mxo1_500.png

[afroakuma]

Don't know if causes a rift or not because, as far as I recall/understand extradimensional spaces don't work inside one another, so is the bag really in the hole or not?

It is.


And does lead affect this in anyway (I'm assuming no seeing the general bewilderment over that detail)?

It does not. Lead has no impact on extradimensional spaces.


Where does the stuff for sonic damage conjurations come from? Is there a plane of sound?

That would be the Elemental Plane of Stupid Stupid Writers. There's no Plane of Sound. It might come from the noise of Pandemonium, but even that isn't known for sonic damage per se.


Are there any spells that use the elemental planes of wood or metal?

Technically no, since they're optional planes and not part of the cosmology. Wu jen spells could probably fit the bill, though.


I've got some questions about the Illithid and the Gith races. Has there been any information on what catastrophe caused the Illithid to do their hail mary time travel pass?

Some say it was the end of time itself, but Lords of Madness suggests the agency of an unknown adversary capable of bringing them to extinction.


Did they bring the Gith's ancestors with them? Or did they subjugate them after arriving in the past?

The Gith were subjugated in the past after the time travel.


Faces of Evil speaks how the Baatezu track all of their number most closely, tracking their record and appraising their worth for the purposes of promoting or demoting them. It mentions whole ministries that deal with these things for the fiends of Baator. It also speaks how the vaults were never breached by anyone... it screams to be used.

Was this ever developed further ? I'm interested in having a devil hire the PC's to get in and do some... dirty work for them :)

The ministers of Hell are eight in number. Together, they are the Dark Eight, the masterminds of the Blood War. Their ministries have not been fleshed-out.

• Baalzephon, Minister of Supply

Eldest of the Dark Eight and one of the only ones to never have been replaced, Baalzephon is quiet and secretive, preferring lobbying and gentle bribery to the more coercive methods of her kin. Baalzephon considers herself to be the engine that makes the Blood War work, and she's not alone in that assessment. With access to many powerful magical items and artifacts with which to increase the power of Hell, Baalzephon is a mighty agent for the victory of Baator and among the most powerful and feared pit fiends.

• Corin, Minister of Espionage

It is easy to mistake Corin for a devil tainted by chaos, for his erratic behavior at time makes him seem more balor than pit fiend. This is nothing more than an elaborate ruse. Corin is rarely surprised, and even on those occasions he's only acting. With spies among demons, yugoloths and celestials (not to mention among the baatezu), the present Corin (the original having long since died) is a most effective master of intelligence and one of the most devious pit fiends in the Hells.

• Dagos, Minister of Strategy

Dagos has a thankless job which he executes with characteristic ruthlessness. The tactician and organizer of the Blood War armies, Dagos mercilessly weeds out corruption in the ranks of the military. Dagos himself is a hypocrite, engaging in behaviors that he would execute inferiors for. His ministry is responsible for promotions and demotions of devils in the military, and Dagos' best tend to rise much more quickly than the devils administered by Zaebos due to the fierce discipline Dagos exacts. Dagos is the superior of the nine Blood War generals who serve in the Three Commands (air force, navy and army), amusingly causing him to be the superior of Bel, Lord of the First, whose prior duties as a general have not been waived.

• Furcas, Minister of Mortal Relations

One of the two remaining members of the original Dark Eight, Furcas may finally have fallen - rumor suggests he met his end at an assassin's hand, though old Furcas is cunning and may have arranged a deception. Baalzephon's greatest rival, Furcas is in charge of the corruption of mortals into Hell's service. An ancient pit fiend who has directly engaged with his fellows, Furcas knows about all the dirty laundry and holds all the cards when dealing with his peers. Furcas and Baalzephon have an odd rivalry; while each is the only true peer of the other and their ambitions have clashed, they are a masterfully effective team and drive each other to excel. Furcas is always on the lookout for new ways to bring mortals to Hell's side and has recruited many of the most powerful allies Baator has ever had.

• Pearza, Minister of Research and Implementation

The prezent Pearza may be the newest of the Dark Eight (depending on the status of Furcas). Heading up a prestigious ministry, Pearza develops new magics and weapons of war as well as new methods of torture and interrogation. Pearza is surrounded by ambitious younger devils eager to make a name for themselves, and her own position is at risk as a result, for the current Pearza has not yet solved how to deal with her colleagues and may not be the best fit for the council.

• Zaebos, Minister of Promotions and Demotions

Zaebos is one of the most hated fiends in the planes, for his ministry has authority over all nonmilitary devils, their promotions and their demotions. With inscrutable methodology and a great deal of care, Zaebos vindicates his highly-scrutinized ministry daily, parsing infernal records with meticulous precision. Zaebos works closely with Zimimar to find the best-performing devils and promote them, while denying promotions or steeply demoting those who have underperformed. The current Zaebos is the second (or third) youngest of the Dark Eight, having served for a paltry 300 years. Zaebos' ministry has the highest turnover due to attrition from vengeance murders. This Zaebos is already an old hand at dealing with his fellows, however, and has proven himself to be slow but cautious and an effective minister.

• Zapan, Minister of Immortal Relations

If there's a job worse than that of Zaebos, it belongs to Zapan, Hell's ambassador. Zapan's ministry deals with the efreet and the yugoloths, but the beleagured pit fiend must also deal with the tanar'ri and the archons, as well as the proxies of various evil deities. Zapan is surprisingly effective at his dealings with other immortal beings, laying out terms that even archons find difficult to deny and bending over backwards to keep negotiations going. The current Zapan has served for several centuries and worked his way up the ranks with his talent for oily persuasion, personally impressing Furcas to the point of being sought out as a protégé.

• Zimimar, Minister of Morale

Zimimar is the instrument of the Dark Eight's monolithic power; in addition to keeping the infernal armies in proper spirits, she is responsible for concealing the death and replacement of members of the Dark Eight and maintaining the illusion of their eternal and unbroken strength. Zimimar is also in charge of crushing insurrections and expunging mistakes. Maintaining a seemingly permanent smile and a veneer of pleasant good cheer, Zimimar is unfailingly polite and friendly, a tone often at odds with her vicious, swift and bloodthirsty methods of ensuring morale. Zimimar's spies lurk in all corners of the Hells, ready to report on devils who lack sufficient morale.


Is there any evidence that there were once other planes (infinite planes, not demiplanes) outside of the Great Wheel? As in, not the current inner, outer, transitive, or material planes?

Not canonically (well...), but see that bit of fanon that was posted (it's quite good).


They enslaved the Gith after coming backwards in time (which was roughly 2,000 years ago).

That number's a bit difficult; the arrival of the illithids is uncertain, and the book doesn't do well at stating a time. The Gith rebellion was conclusively 2000 years ago, though.


The 3rd Edition Manual of the Planes says yes. The Plane of Shadow seems to be the only way to go from one multiverse to another, as they all have their own Astral Planes (if they have one). There is even one planar map that shows the Great Wheel and two other Multiverses connected that way.

No no no, that's not what he was asking; you see, that would be moving between multiverses, and he's asking whether there's evidence of older planes within this multiverse.

[Larkas]

Quick questions: I see the mention of "cycles" when dealing with time in the planes all the time. How exactly does that compare to a (Prime Material world's) year? What is that cycle based on?

[Proud Tortoise]

@^: Most people measure time by the Sigilian calendar (http://www.deathstar.org/~krlipka/ps/things/thoughts/sigilcal.html), and there is also a calendar for the Outlands here (http://www.mimir.net/outlands/calendar.shtml).



Where does the stuff for sonic damage conjurations come from? Is there a plane of sound?


I would guess they simply vibrate the air, like any other sound.

[Fable Wright]

What are the real uses of the Shadow Plane, aside from crafting the odd shadow themed item, used as fluff for spells, and travelling to alternate multiverses? There's Shadow Walk, which basically is a more time consuming, dangerous teleport that isn't really that useful, and... not much else I can think of. What's the point of two coterminous planes on the material plane if only one has practical usage (e.g. moving through walls, dodging attacks and moving to the inner planes)?

[Proud Tortoise]

and moving to the inner planes)?

In point of fact, in 3.5e (which is the one with the prominent Plane of Shadow), you can't even do that.

[123456789blaaa]

Baphomet seems kind of...weird. Why does a demon lord who is tied in with savagery and beasts make monsters (also kind of stepping on Dwiergus's toes) in a tower literally called the Tower of SCIENCE? I don't get it :smallconfused:.

[Jigokuro]

In point of fact, in 3.5e (which is the one with the prominent Plane of Shadow), you can't even do that.

I believe he meant that the useful plane (ethereal) does those things, while shadow does not.

I hadn't thought of it before but it does seem kinda useless when other options are present, which they virtually always are unless a DM is basically forcing it. It has small utilities that is more easily gained elsewhere, and it was the completely out-of-scope power of connecting whole multiverses that will never come up normally.

Oh, and my question was from accidentally reading 4e material that wasn't marked as such. I'm honestly glad though, since that situation is dumb and it is better to not be the case.:smalltongue:

[Proud Tortoise]

Oh, and my question was from accidentally reading 4e material that wasn't marked as such.

You should go wash your eyes out. There should be a warning label for 4e material like the ones on ciggarette packs:

Warning: This book may cause confusion, misguidance, and death.

[Asmodai]

The info on the ministries is quite interesting. It gives me some ideas where to go. Any idea what kind of security they would be implementing for the purpose of hiding the data? I'm guessing the security would mostly be oriented towards stopping devils?

And is my idea about using deformed petitioners as data storage plausible or a tad too whimsical even for Planescape?

[Proud Tortoise]

Too what for Planescape? :smalltongue:

[Asmodai]

Too what for Planescape? :smalltongue:

Phew. Thanks, I needed that!

[Yora]

In Torment, the Dustmen are using a zombies chest as a walking file cabinet. :smallbiggrin:

[Gildedragon]

So what -would- be too whimsical for planescape?

[CRtwenty]

Who or what is Ahriman? I've seen some theories linking him to both the Serpent and Asmodeus a few times but I was wondering if there was any canon info about him.

[Asmodai]

Oh and just to give back something to the thread (http://clone-artist.deviantart.com/gallery/7083747). This guy does some awesome Planescape stuff, and I'm lucky enough that he actually plays with me :)

[TuggyNE]

I would guess they simply vibrate the air, like any other sound.

I believe the question was referring to the existence of orb of sound, an instantaneous SR:No conjuration.

… Yeah.

[Coidzor]

What are the real uses of the Shadow Plane, aside from crafting the odd shadow themed item, used as fluff for spells, and travelling to alternate multiverses? There's Shadow Walk, which basically is a more time consuming, dangerous teleport that isn't really that useful, and... not much else I can think of. What's the point of two coterminous planes on the material plane if only one has practical usage (e.g. moving through walls, dodging attacks and moving to the inner planes)?

Wait, what? You can get to the inner planes from the Ethereal? How did I miss that one? :smalleek:

[afroakuma]

What are the real uses of the Shadow Plane

I don't follow.


There's Shadow Walk, which basically is a more time consuming, dangerous teleport that isn't really that useful

Well, it's a group teleport, for one, and you can also use it in hostile fashion to drag a creature with you into the Plane of Shadow.


Baphomet seems kind of...weird. Why does a demon lord who is tied in with savagery and beasts make monsters (also kind of stepping on Dwiergus's toes) in a tower literally called the Tower of SCIENCE? I don't get it :smallconfused:.

Funny you should mention Dwiergus... Baphomet is his student. They were introduced by Pale Night, and Baphomet took to it instantly. The difference is that Baphomet likes to science up some nightmarish beasts, whereas Dwiergus designs demons.


The info on the ministries is quite interesting. It gives me some ideas where to go. Any idea what kind of security they would be implementing for the purpose of hiding the data? I'm guessing the security would mostly be oriented towards stopping devils?

The security would be thicker than that; devils are consummate schemers, and exploiting other agents is de rigeur for them.


And is my idea about using deformed petitioners as data storage plausible or a tad too whimsical even for Planescape?

I wonder if it's too breakable as security goes. Otherwise, it's definitely not "too whimsical."


Who or what is Ahriman? I've seen some theories linking him to both the Serpent and Asmodeus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVikZ8Oe_XA&t=1m12s) a few times but I was wondering if there was any canon info about him.

Canonically, it's suggested that Ahriman is the original identity of Asmodeus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVikZ8Oe_XA&t=1m12s) as one of the Twin Serpents of Law. However, that's impossible to confirm, since Asmodeus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVikZ8Oe_XA&t=1m12s).


Oh and just to give back something to the thread (http://clone-artist.deviantart.com/gallery/7083747). This guy does some awesome Planescape stuff, and I'm lucky enough that he actually plays with me :)

Whoa whoa whoa. You play with that guy? :smalleek:

Would he be willing to do some more? I've been searching for an artist to do something Planescapey.

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
Funny you should mention Dwiergus... Baphomet is his student. They were introduced by Pale Night, and Baphomet took to it instantly. The difference is that Baphomet likes to science up some nightmarish beasts, whereas Dwiergus designs demons.
<snip>


Really? Huh...did you forget to mention this when I asked for info on Dwiergus in the previous thread? Also, where did you learn this from?

Also, would you mind detailing why you gave Golobile the classes you did?

[afroakuma]

Really? Huh...did you forget to mention this when I asked for info on Dwiergus in the previous thread?

Probably. Sometimes I'm not interested in propagating questions.


Also, where did you learn this from?

Baphomet's Demonomicon entry in Dragon 341.


Also, would you mind detailing why you gave Golobile the classes you did?

Hm. I think I went with the variant rogue because I wanted more skill points and Golobile's an idiot. I know I wanted the fighter bonus feats. Thrall of Juiblex dip was because of who his father is and gave him the stink aura. Warrior of Darkness juiced up his stats a bit more and helped me get his move speed up to average.

[Fable Wright]

I don't follow.

Or, where did it lead to in 2nd edition, when the Astral plane lead to the outer planes, Ethereal the inner, and Shadow... where? What was its purpose as a transitive plane, aside from just leading to alternate multiverses? What was the point of adding a Plane of Shadow to the cosmology? Why is it there and what does it do?

[AuraTwilight]

In 2nd Edition, the Shadow Plane was only a demiplane, not a transitive plane.

[Eldan]

The Plane of Shadows never really came up much in Planescape.

That said, there was a short bit about how planes might come into existence. Some people theorized that demiplanes may become real infinite planes over time. If that were true, it said, the Demiplane of Shadow would be a prime candidate, since it was the largest demiplane and already almost acted like a real plane.

Then, in third edition, it was turned into a full plane.

[Larkas]

It's a pity that they simply ignored the Planescape setting in 3E and never explored that transformation...

[Proud Tortoise]

"It's a pity"? You understate, my friend.

[afroakuma]

I elaborated on the progression of Shadow through the editions in the previous thread.

[Asmodai]

Whoa whoa whoa. You play with that guy? :smalleek:

Would he be willing to do some more? I've been searching for an artist to do something Planescapey.

I'm pretty sure he would. He loves Planescape to bits and is a treasure trove of Planescape info. The biggest reason I go to you for consultations is because when I start running I don't want to let him down :)

I suggest contacting him and workign someting out, I'm pretty sure he had all the contact info posted on DA.

[Eldan]

I am so jealous of you now. He's been one of my favourite planescape artists around for years.

[enderlord99]

Whoa whoa whoa. You play with that guy? :smalleek:

...With that response, I expected Rip Van Wormer.

[Tzardok]

What are cacodemons? Fiendish Codex 1 includes an demon lord Ahrimanes, lord of cacodemons, but does not elaborate.

[Answerer]

Hah, that's a reference to Doom.

[Chilingsworth]

Hah, that's a reference to Doom.

not nessicarily. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cacodemon)

[Answerer]

Well, fine. Funnier as a Doom reference, then.

[Larkas]

I elaborated on the progression of Shadow through the editions in the previous thread.

Oh, I was the one asking, IIRC. I was referring to Wizards proper ignoring the evolution. They held the IP, after all, and that could even make novel material, if twisted right.

[afroakuma]

What are cacodemons? Fiendish Codex 1 includes an demon lord Ahrimanes, lord of cacodemons, but does not elaborate.

It's not well-defined in D&D; there used to be a spell, cacodemon, that summoned a random high-ranking demon (much like planar ally but with even less control and safety). 2nd Edition replaced it with cacofiend when it finally came back, which I am led to understand brought forth a random high-ranked baatezu or tanar'ri.

Given Ahrimanes' portfolio, it's likely that cacodemons are powerful free agents, exiles and wanderers with an inability to claim power of their own in the Abyss. This would explain why the spell existed and drew them forth so readily.

[Proud Tortoise]

It's not well-defined in D&D; there used to be a spell, cacodemon, that summoned a random high-ranking demon

I remember that spell! A demon tried to eat me once.

[Cirrylius]

If not, do you have any theories on how one could get to the theoretical Ordial Plane, barring DM Fiat?
Jump off the edge of Sigil?


So what -would- be too whimsical for planescape?
Canonically? The Golden Bauriar Tea Shoppe:smallamused:

[Fable Wright]

I elaborated on the progression of Shadow through the editions in the previous thread.
Do you have a link to the post, or know what page or range of pages it's on?

Jump off the edge of Sigil?

That would just have you leaping down the spire...

So what -would- be too whimsical for planescape?
A monetary system based on the barter of hats and the small animals wearing them.

[ArcturusV]

Did the ADnD 2nd edition version of "The Plane of Fire" ever get updated for Third Edition/3.5? I'm trying to find something similar in theme to that plane, which was locked in a constant forest fire sort of scenario, rapidly growing in the wake of the devastation and ash, only to be burned down again when the fire swept back around.

I found that much more interesting than the City of Brass... with Flames... sort of thing in third. But I cannot find an alternative.

Sorry for the relatively simplistic question but I've been looking for a while and it's been bugging me.

[tyckspoon]

I found that much more interesting than the City of Brass... with Flames... sort of thing in third. But I cannot find an alternative.

Sorry for the relatively simplistic question but I've been looking for a while and it's been bugging me.

The City of Brass is not the entirety of the Plane of Fire. It's just the most obvious and (usually) the most interesting reason to go there. There's plenty more plane to be whatever representation of fire you want it to be.. there just might not be much of a reason for adventurers to care about it.

[ArcturusV]

I suppose what bugs me is that the descriptions I have seen of the Plane of Fire in third wouldn't allow that sort of image of Fire and Rebirth to exist. It's always "everything is on fire, all the time, if something flammable is brought into the plane, it's automatically on fire". So you can't have things like the constantly regenerating forest with that description.

I suppose I could handwave it away. But I was hoping I was missing some version of the Elemental Planes printed somewhere I failed to find which altered that.

[CRtwenty]

I suppose what bugs me is that the descriptions I have seen of the Plane of Fire in third wouldn't allow that sort of image of Fire and Rebirth to exist. It's always "everything is on fire, all the time, if something flammable is brought into the plane, it's automatically on fire". So you can't have things like the constantly regenerating forest with that description.

I suppose I could handwave it away. But I was hoping I was missing some version of the Elemental Planes printed somewhere I failed to find which altered that.

A lot of the elemental planes have elemental versions of Prime flora and fauna. It's not too big of a stretch that there's plantlife in the Plane of Fire that is resistant to the normal fire of the Plane, and only burns when it's exposed to some of the various super hot weather patterns that cross it. This of course is a necesary part of those plants reproductive cycle.

[Eldan]

That would just have you leaping down the spire...

Probably not, in fact. Though you can see Sigil from the Spire, you can not see the Spire from Sigil. Outside Sigil, there is just grey void, and in fact no one knows what happens to those who jump off. They just seem to vanish.

[Chilingsworth]

Would this work as a way to learn about the void around Sigil:

1. dominate a creature/person
2. Cast interplanar telepathic bond on them (linking them to yourself.)
3. order them to jump off the edge of the city (or chuck them off to deny them a new save to avoid suicide) with orders to mentallly describe their experiences.

Actually, would versions of that procedure work as a means to explore dangerous planar locations? Are there any published locations for which that would explicitly not work? (Note, the morality of the above plan is irrelevant, as I'm pretty sure a scholar would have to be evil to even serriously consider it, let alone try it.)

[Larkas]

Do you have a link to the post, or know what page or range of pages it's on?

It's here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14447510&postcount=31). Second page, not exactly hard to find. :smallredface:

[Cirrylius]

Probably not, in fact. Though you can see Sigil from the Spire, you can not see the Spire from Sigil. Outside Sigil, there is just grey void, and in fact no one knows what happens to those who jump off. They just seem to vanish.

Maaaaan. Ninja'd:smallannoyed:

But yeah, ^that. There's a throwaway mention in Guide to Sigil (I think) that says that a few people are supposed to have gone over the edge and come back, claiming to have been shunted into a random plane. From that, I always imagined that the nature of the Ordial Plane was that it was the plane of sympathetic connections; everywhere, no matter how distant or unlike other places, is reachable from everywhere else. Basically, I imagined a kind of Border Ethereal where separate planes touch, so you could be looking at the Abyss and the Plane of Radiance, or Athas and Mechanus, or the Astral and the Positive Energy Plane at the same time from etheric safety. In my mind, it was how Sigil's otherwise impossible portals worked.

[Proud Tortoise]

That would just have you leaping down the spire...


Or possibly appearing on a random hostile plane. Or just disappearing.

[Jigokuro]

I suppose what bugs me is that the descriptions I have seen of the Plane of Fire in third wouldn't allow that sort of image of Fire and Rebirth to exist. It's always "everything is on fire, all the time, if something flammable is brought into the plane, it's automatically on fire". So you can't have things like the constantly regenerating forest with that description.

I suppose I could handwave it away. But I was hoping I was missing some version of the Elemental Planes printed somewhere I failed to find which altered that.

Well, elemental planes occasionally bleed together creating pockets of overlap. Of course the inner plane of fire could never run into the outer plane of Arboria, but there is an inner elemental plane of wood, iirc. It isn't used for much that I know of, but I imagine if it collided with the plane of fire the resulting area would be similar to what you want; lots of wood on fire, but because it is THE plane of wood, the wood would come back automatically. I'm not sure if the plane of wood is described as leafy trees or just solid wood though (Afro?). Though as DM you can say it is trees if you want regardless.

[Go!Go!Go!]

the plain of wood is optional and not cononicly part of the great wheel. where wood it even fit? also it kind of rips off the world tree ygdrassil.

[Larkas]

While reading through some Dragon Magazines, I noticed something I never did before: did you know that the original Primus is statted out as a vestige in #341? How do you think that ties in with what we traditionally know of the Primus?

[afroakuma]

Did the ADnD 2nd edition version of "The Plane of Fire" ever get updated for Third Edition/3.5? I'm trying to find something similar in theme to that plane, which was locked in a constant forest fire sort of scenario

I don't know where you got this from; Fire, according to Planescape, has always been... well... fire. This sort of phoenixlike concept doesn't exist as far as I'm aware. I should point out that Fire is much more than a lake of flames and a City of Brass.


Would this work as a way to learn about the void around Sigil:

1. dominate a creature/person
2. Cast interplanar telepathic bond on them (linking them to yourself.)
3. order them to jump off the edge of the city (or chuck them off to deny them a new save to avoid suicide) with orders to mentallly describe their experiences.

Actually, would versions of that procedure work as a means to explore dangerous planar locations? Are there any published locations for which that would explicitly not work? (Note, the morality of the above plan is irrelevant, as I'm pretty sure a scholar would have to be evil to even serriously consider it, let alone try it.)

Definitely doesn't work for Sigil; likely wouldn't work for other places of mystery. Crossing a planar boundary severs control, as does demanding a suicidal course of action. In addition, most places of mystery and danger have a nasty habit of cutting off forms of outside contact.


I'm not sure if the plane of wood is described as leafy trees or just solid wood though (Afro?). Though as DM you can say it is trees if you want regardless.

It's one gigantic tree. It's basically Yggdrasil.


While reading through some Dragon Magazines, I noticed something I never did before: did you know that the original Primus is statted out as a vestige in #341?

I did know that.


How do you think that ties in with what we traditionally know of the Primus?

Makes sense. Old Primus was destroyed by the Last Word and displaced by Tenebrous. Becoming a vestige seems apt.

[Lapak]

I don't know where you got this from; Fire, according to Planescape, has always been... well... fire. This sort of phoenixlike concept doesn't exist as far as I'm aware. I should point out that Fire is much more than a lake of flames and a City of Brass.The closest thing I can think of (and it is a very, very close match) to what the question-asker was describing is not a plane but a planet - Echronedal, the Fire Planet, from Iain Banks' book The Player of Games.

(Which had nothing to do with D&D, 2nd edition or otherwise.)

[Proud Tortoise]

What is there other than seas of flames and efreet cities?

[Gildedragon]

Well it borders the paraelemental planes of ash, radiance, magma and smoke, so I figure there's a fair bit of that around the "edges" of the plane.
Azer, there's those too.

[CRtwenty]

There's references to "Wars in Heaven" in some of the books where the Upper Planes fight each other. How many times has this occurred that we know of? What details do we know about it?

[ArcturusV]

It was part of one of the base, generic settingless books from 2nd edition. Been 16 years so it's hard to remember which one. I think I got it from Tome of Magic? Maybe the DMG of that edition. It wasn't Planescape as I hadn't heard of it until later on.

... this is gonna bug me now.

[Asmodai]

http://www.arlde.com/one/11361s.jpg

This one? It was one of the final AD&D books printed before the line wound down. The design and art inside scream Planescape, even though it's a generic black book. I kinda expected it to be the counterpart to Faces of Evil, but the whole thing felt lather lackluster and spent waaay too many pages trying to explain to me how i can play an Angel rulewise :P

No idea if the Wars were inside, though. Don't have it around to check :P
I'm sure Afro does, though ;)

[Proud Tortoise]

What are the intelligent races of the Plane of Shadow which are not universally hostile to humans, or evil in alignment, and what are their cultures like?

[Gildedragon]

Illumians have quite a nice metropolis there with a volcano floral clock, an in-process panoptic library, a couple of resident gods, a ton of graves with heroes of ages past waiting to rise to the defense of their city, and an incredible hatred to the Githyanki.

[ShadowFireLance]

What can you tell me about Carceri?

[Cirrylius]

What can you tell me about Carceri?

If you go, do it of your own free will. Getting banished there is tantamount to a death sentence. Don't expect the Titans to be sympathetic unless your DM points you that way. Don't trust ANYONE.

...and if you DO go of your own free will? Don't advertise it to the locals.

Edit: Just realized I'm talking 2nd Edition Carceri. Oops.

[Acanous]

Who all have current, serious plots relating to deposing the Lady of Pain, and what do those plots involve? (Trying to get a read on what sorts of things in-game players might pick up on)

[Cirrylius]

Who all have current, serious plots relating to deposing the Lady of Pain, and what do those plots involve? (Trying to get a read on what sorts of things in-game players might pick up on)

Google Die Vecna Die, Shekelor and Labrynth Stone for canon examples.

Also, off the top of my head, I can't remember whether the plot to revive Aoskar was a hidden bid to take over Sigil or not.

[Proud Tortoise]

Google Die Vecna Die, Shekelor and Labrynth Stone.

Also, off the top of my head, I can't remember whether the plot to revive Aoskar was a hidden bid to take over Sigil or not.

I love the Faction War. So ironic.

[123456789blaaa]

What can you tell us about Ghaunadaur, Mak Thuum Ngatha, The Patient One, and the Xammux?

How is B'olugubro able to summon oozes?

Why do Tharizduns clerics get the Force domain?

[afroakuma]

What is there other than seas of flames and efreet cities?


Well it borders the paraelemental planes of ash, radiance, magma and smoke, so I figure there's a fair bit of that around the "edges" of the plane.
Azer, there's those too.

Also salamanders, fire mephits, magmins, yada yada yada. It's a happening place.


There's references to "Wars in Heaven" in some of the books where the Upper Planes fight each other. How many times has this occurred that we know of? What details do we know about it?

Canonically, that number would be zero. They've carefully paved over all references to that.


What are the intelligent races of the Plane of Shadow which are not universally hostile to humans, or evil in alignment, and what are their cultures like?

Er... well, there are gloamings, but as planetouched they aren't really residents so much as descendants of the Plane of Shadow, and they don't have a culture per se. Shadowswyfts likewise, though there are more of them on the Plane of Shadow. Shadowswyfts have vague traces of a common culture; they tend to worship Olidammara and have short personal names associated with a gesture.


What can you tell me about Carceri?

Start with this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carceri). Come back if you have further questions.


Who all have current, serious plots relating to deposing the Lady of Pain, and what do those plots involve? (Trying to get a read on what sorts of things in-game players might pick up on)

As of 3.5, nobody has a serious plot to depose the Lady of Pain right now. I'd argue that no plot to depose the Lady is serious, since trying is stupid.


What can you tell us about list of evil alien entities

Oh who gave you that to read.

If you've already read the information from Lords of Madness/Book of Vile Darkness, I have nothing else from canon to give you for three of those. Ghaunadaur has been around for longer and can be read about here (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghaunadaur).


Why do Tharizduns clerics get the Force domain?

Because he grants it. :smallbiggrin:

As I know that's just baiting an obvious follow-up question, I'll just jump right in and say I have no sweet clue and have not been blessed with the design notes of whoever made that decision. I note that Tharizdun is also permitted the Rune domain in some source or other (no, I'm not going to bother hunting it down) so it may be that the designers bizarrely associate the powers imprisoning him with his own power somehow. Sympathetic magic?

Of course, it might just be another way to express nihilism and destruction; energy that doesn't act like energy, that sort of thing.

[ShadowFireLance]

Who is Dark Myrakul?

[Yora]

A half human, half Gehreleth cleric who served Graz'zt, Dark Myrakul was somehow turned into a lich by his patron. He serves as the chief warden of Skullrot.
Sources:
The Shackled City - Adventure Path
Dungeon #116

---


What can you tell us about Ghaunadaur

Personally, I believe Ghaunadaur is an alternate identity of Juiblex in the Forgotten Realms. They are pretty much identical.

[Jigokuro]

Why is the Lady of Pain named/called that? Granted she can cause a huge amount of pain to anyone or anything in her domain, but that isn't ALL she does (stuff like making Sigil able to exist seems pretty important), so why it is her only descriptor?:smallconfused:
'Lady of Pain' sound more like a mid-level CE rogue/assassin that is a bit full of herself than an omnipotent governess.

[ArcturusV]

I imagine it has something to do with the excessive amount of blades that are hanging off her body.

[Yora]

Given what seems to be the concept of the Lady of Pain, the idea that she makes Sigil possible to exist is just a mere hypothesis. Someone postulated it and people have kept parroting it ever since.
But that's not how planescape works. The original books never made any definitive statements comming from the setting writers. Unless I am mistaken, everything was always written as text created by characters within the setting itself. Everything in Planescape is theory at best, completely random guess at worst.
And with the Lady of Pain usually made to appear as the greatest mystery of all, I really can't imagine any official statements about her nature existing at all.
All that is known for sure is that she is there and either flays or mazes anyone who seems to have an actual shot at changing the status quo of Sigil.

[Cirrylius]

Why is the Lady of Pain named/called that?
...but that isn't ALL she does (stuff like making Sigil able to exist seems pretty important), so why it is her only descriptor?
Because she doesn't talk about herself, and nicknames happen easily.

[Eldan]

And out of setting, because for some reason, someone named her after a poem:
Notre-Dame des Sept Douleurs. (http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/174550)

[Yora]

Because it sounds awesome! :smallbiggrin:

[Proud Tortoise]

And out of setting, because for some reason, someone named her after a poem:
Notre-Dame des Sept Douleurs. (http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/174550)

This was, in fact, the actual inspiration for the Lady.



Why do Tharizduns clerics get the Force domain?

Why not?

[afroakuma]

Personally, I believe Ghaunadaur is an alternate identity of Juiblex in the Forgotten Realms. They are pretty much identical.

On Toril, Ghaunadaur does annex the (limited) worship of Juiblex, cutting the demon lord off from that particular well. However, the two are very different beings.


Why is the Lady of Pain named/called that?

What else would you call her? She looks like a mere touch would cause immense suffering, she personally does cause immense suffering, she doesn't speak, doesn't govern and slaughters those who would worship her.

In any event, it's the name she goes by, and on those rare occasions where a dabus identifies her, she is the Lady of Pain.

[Yora]

In any event, it's the name she goes by, and on those rare occasions where a dabus identifies her, she is the Lady of Pain.
Does she? If the never speaks and doesn't care what people do as long as it doesn't change the status quo, I would guess that's simply a nickname someone came up with and that stuck.

[afroakuma]

Does she? If the never speaks and doesn't care what people do as long as it doesn't change the status quo, I would guess that's simply a nickname someone came up with and that stuck.

On the rare occasions that she has issued any sort of communication, it is signed "The Lady of Pain." So yes, it's the name she uses.

[Lord_Gareth]

How much does Her Serenity/The various factions of Sigil care about new portals being opened up into the City of Doors - such as a mage's college connecting their school to Sigil? Obviously not including doors opened up for hostile purposes, since obvious reaction is obvious.

[Eldan]

It's in fact not possible, normally. There's natural portals, every other way to travel into or out of Sigil is impossible, as far as anyone knows.

[Asmodai]

What else would you call her? She looks like a mere touch would cause immense suffering, she personally does cause immense suffering, she doesn't speak, doesn't govern and slaughters those who would worship her.

In any event, it's the name she goes by, and on those rare occasions where a dabus identifies her, she is the Lady of Pain.

Pages of Pain has some ideas about her actually spreading pain through some kind of parasites that cause people to endure suffering longterm and reeling away from happiness. Is this just the author inventing crap or was there something to it?

[Gildedragon]

Is there any place the Dark Powers from the demiplane of dread can't bring people in from/make their mists appear?
Could the DPs go into Sigil, not being quite deities?

[Eldan]

Pages of Pain has some ideas about her actually spreading pain through some kind of parasites that cause people to endure suffering longterm and reeling away from happiness. Is this just the author inventing crap or was there something to it?

That entire book is crap.

[Yora]

Is there any place the Dark Powers from the demiplane of dread can't bring people in from/make their mists appear?
Could the DPs go into Sigil, not being quite deities?
Since we don't know what the dark powers are and even if they are people, that's impossible to say*. But to snatch people away, they don't need to go to a place. I would say the mists are basically just fancy looking portals. As portals have no defined appearance, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't.


*Damn, 2nd Ed. settings are just so much better as RPG settings and not just tabletop miniature wargame backgrounds.

[Asmodai]

Yeah i figured out as much while i was reading it, the idea that she's Poseidon's daughter was pretty much as bonkers as it gets. I liked the whole Clueless Berk being taken for a ride, but it got bad pretty fast...

[afroakuma]

Pages of Pain has some ideas about her actually spreading pain through some kind of parasites that cause people to endure suffering longterm and reeling away from happiness. Is this just the author inventing crap or was there something to it?

Yeah don't listen to that book.


Is there any place the Dark Powers from the demiplane of dread can't bring people in from/make their mists appear?

Theoretically. They Dark Powers generally have no interest in the Planes beyond the Material Plane, though if you're fleeing from them you might discover to your horror that the measures you used to flee to the Planes had in fact deposited you in a reflection of the Dark Powers' design, waiting for you to relax and feel safe before revealing the Mists.


Could the DPs go into Sigil, not being quite deities?

We don't know what they are, and there are plenty of non-deific beings that are heavily dissuaded from entering Sigil. While I would assume they can send the Mists to Sigil to gank someone with the Lady's tacit approval, I would expect that the Dark Powers themselves, whatever they are, are banned from personally entering the Cage.

[Chilingsworth]

What can you tell us about the Justicator, a lawful outsider found (in its most recent version, anyway) on Pg 85 of the MMIII?

I mean, other than what's mentioned in the MMIII. Are they a creature from an earlier eddition, or new? If they're new, are there any similiar creatures from earlier edditions?

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
Oh who gave you that to read.

If you've already read the information from Lords of Madness/Book of Vile Darkness, I have nothing else from canon to give you for three of those. Ghaunadaur has been around for longer and can be read about here (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghaunadaur).
<snip>


Darn...I've already read all of those. Do you have any noncanon material of your own devising on them? (additionally, the link says that Ghaunadaur is the god of abominations. What exactly does that mean? I'm only aware of two types of creatures called abominations in dnd (these guys (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm) and these guys (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/yuan-ti-abomination)) and neither seem to fit. Or do they mean abominations as in the RL term?)

Also, you seem to have missed one of my questions:



<snip>
How is B'olugubro able to summon oozes?
<snip>

In case you don't know who I'm talking about, he was the "prize recruit" of the Cult of the Faceless. You said:


While B'olugubro has no power to control the oozes, it possesses a bizarre affinity for summoning them, transforming them and using its own slime and mucus to give the oozes vague direction.


I could not find out how he does so.


---



Personally, I believe Ghaunadaur is an alternate identity of Juiblex in the Forgotten Realms. They are pretty much identical.

As Afro said, the two are actually quite different.

Juiblex hates everything and has no goals besides existing and destroying (oh, and also taking over Zuggtmoys realm). He doesn't even really care about worshippers and is one of the weakest demon lords (there's a reason he's called the "Lord of Nothing").

Ghaunadaur on the other hand, loves having worshippers because he loves sacrifices (even more so if they're willing/mind controlled). Sometimes he'll even reward false worshippers (on the other hand, they may be devoured. Ghaunadaur is an unpredictable deity).

Also, while Juiblex's sphere of influence begins and ends at slimes and oozes, Ghaunadaur is also the diety of outcasts and rebels. He prizes finding new ways or trying new things and holds that all creatures are fit to wield power.

Honestly, as much as I love Juiblex, I've got to admit that Ghaunadaur has a lot more personality and uniqueness.

[Larkas]

Darn...I've already read all of those. Do you have any noncanon material of your own devising on them? (additionally, the link says that Ghaunadaur is the god of abominations. What exactly does that mean? I'm only aware of two types of creatures called abominations in dnd (these guys (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm) and these guys (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/yuan-ti-abomination)) and neither seem to fit. Or do they mean abominations as in the RL term?)

Maybe they meant aberrations?

[afroakuma]

Darn...I've already read all of those. Do you have any noncanon material of your own devising on them? (additionally, the link says that Ghaunadaur is the god of abominations. What exactly does that mean? I'm only aware of two types of creatures called abominations in dnd (these guys (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm) and these guys (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/yuan-ti-abomination)) and neither seem to fit. Or do they mean abominations as in the RL term?)

I don't; I never found any of them particularly interesting.

"Abominations" is here being used in the colloquial sense; Ghaunadaur is a god of freakish, warped and horrifying things.


I could not find out how he does so.

That would be fluff, not crunch.

[Go!Go!Go!]

hey where does zihaja fit in to the cosmalogy?/

[123456789blaaa]

Is there any material on Ghaunadaur in any of the books besides the ghaunadan monster, the Initiate of Ghaunadaur feat, and the Slime Lord PRC?

[ArcturusV]

ADnD 2nd Edition Drow of the Underdark had a section on Ghaunadaur as I recall.

[afroakuma]

hey where does zihaja fit in to the cosmalogy?/

Kamala is removed from the Material Plane; the "planes" that constitute it are partitioned from the rest of the multiverse by an astral shell that is excruciatingly difficult to navigate and impossible to penetrate.


Is there any material on Ghaunadaur in any of the books besides the ghaunadan monster, the Initiate of Ghaunadaur feat, and the Slime Lord PRC?

As in crunch? Don't believe so.

[123456789blaaa]

Kamala is removed from the Material Plane; the "planes" that constitute it are partitioned from the rest of the multiverse by an astral shell that is excruciatingly difficult to navigate and impossible to penetrate.



As in crunch? Don't believe so.

(*sobs gently*)

Also, what can you tell us about Moil, the City That Waits?

[LOTRfan]

What can you tell me about Windblades? Are they new creations made for the 3.X Monster Manual IV?

Why is it that Nupperibos, Lemures, Dretches, and the like have 2 HD (like standard petitioners) while Lantern Archons only have 1?

[Proud Tortoise]

Because devils are supposed to be enemies, and archons are supposed to be your friends. :smallyuk:

[Go!Go!Go!]

why do demons even have lords? or any hierachy at all? they are repersenting chaos, so they shouldnt listen to athority, like the slaad.

[LOTRfan]

Actually, funnily enough Slaadi have lords as well. The only one I can name off the top of my head is Ygorl, Lord of Entropy. I suggest reading Afroakuma's own homebrew concerning Slaadi here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92837).

[ArcturusV]

Consider it an evolutionary trait of the Blood War? I mean you can't have a rabble of guys who are anarchists and can't work together survive against the onslaught of an organized force like the Devils. They have to have SOME level of organization. Even if it's just a barbaric "I can beat you up, so do what I say" or "I'm BIGGER!"

[Fable Wright]

How do outsiders in general view Vestiges? I know gods don't like them, but what abound demons/devils? Do Archons really feel justified about killing every binder they see? Are Modrons infuriated by a force that's outside what they can observe?

[afroakuma]

(*sobs gently*)

Also, what can you tell us about Moil, the City That Waits?

I would imagine that you've read the most pertinent info about it already; nonetheless, here's the Cliff Notes.

Moil was a city on a Material Plane world named Ranais (do not ask me follow-up questions about Ranais) that worshiped Orcus. When they turned from his worship, the demon prince cast a nasty curse of eternal slumber on the whole city, with the escape clause being the dawning of the sun. Of course, Orcus being Orcus he had to go beyond that and cast the whole city into a lightless demiplane.

Eventually everything died, and between the rather horrific means of their death, the agglomeration of cursed nightmares and the touch of Orcus, Moil filled with the stink of undeath in a terrible way. Eventually, Acererak found it, dragged part of it into the Negative Energy Plane and recruited some undead minions.

The Black Lore of Moil is of course a boon to arcanists willing to delve into it (it's a feat, you've seen it around), and necromancers armed with a copy of the Libris Mortis can unlock the mysteries of certain types of undead associated with the dead city.


What can you tell me about Windblades? Are they new creations made for the 3.X Monster Manual IV?

Yup. They're just nasty things for Pandemonium. No connection to prior editions, nothing much to say about them. They are creations of Erythnul, and about as pleasant as one would expect of creatures fitting that description. They are also in the employ of Talos.


Why is it that Nupperibos, Lemures, Dretches, and the like have 2 HD (like standard petitioners) while Lantern Archons only have 1?

Lantern archons have superior DR, can teleport, have an attack that specifically bypasses DR and is ranged touch, can hit themselves with a +1 to attacks and 1d8+3 temporary hit points (essentially a second, better hit die) whenever they please, are permanently surrounded by a magic circle against evil and weaken hostile beings within 20 feet.

So yeah.


why do demons even have lords? or any hierachy at all? they are repersenting chaos, so they shouldnt listen to athority, like the slaad.

Demon lords aren't exactly appointed, you know; they just install themselves in despotic fashion, with the threat of violence backing their actions. It's not a hierarchy, it's pure applied bullying.

[123456789blaaa]

I would imagine that you've read the most pertinent info about it already; nonetheless, here's the Cliff Notes.

Moil was a city on a Material Plane world named Ranais (do not ask me follow-up questions about Ranais) that worshiped Orcus. When they turned from his worship, the demon prince cast a nasty curse of eternal slumber on the whole city, with the escape clause being the dawning of the sun. Of course, Orcus being Orcus he had to go beyond that and cast the whole city into a lightless demiplane.

Eventually everything died, and between the rather horrific means of their death, the agglomeration of cursed nightmares and the touch of Orcus, Moil filled with the stink of undeath in a terrible way. Eventually, Acererak found it, dragged part of it into the Negative Energy Plane and recruited some undead minions.

The Black Lore of Moil is of course a boon to arcanists willing to delve into it (it's a feat, you've seen it around), and necromancers armed with a copy of the Libris Mortis can unlock the mysteries of certain types of undead associated with the dead city.
<snip>


A lot of that's new info for me actually.

I still can't believe the Moilian zombie, bone weird, vestige, and winterwight were all updated to 3E but the Moilian Heart wasn't! That was the best monster! :smallfrown:.

[Proud Tortoise]

do not ask me follow-up questions about Ranais

...
.......
...........................................
:smallconfused:

[LOTRfan]

I still can't believe the Moilian zombie, bone weird, vestige, and winterwight were all updated to 3E but the Moilian Heart wasn't! That was the best monster! :smallfrown:.

I bring gifts. (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1060) It's not official, obviously, but the creature catalog has a wide variety of cool conversions from earlier editions.

[Fable Wright]

...
.......
...........................................
:smallconfused:

Here (http://www.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/ranais). Even includes sources at the end for further reading.

[Go!Go!Go!]

Demon lords aren't exactly appointed, you know; they just install themselves in despotic fashion, with the threat of violence backing their actions. It's not a hierarchy, it's pure applied bullying.

it just seams to me that a bunch of anarhcists wouldn't even want to bully other demons, and that other demons wouldnt listen to a buly in thier ranks

[Yora]

Some don't. Which is why the abyss is looking as it is.

[Clistenes]

it just seams to me that a bunch of anarhcists wouldn't even want to bully other demons, and that other demons wouldnt listen to a buly in thier ranks

I think that if a Demon Lord becomes powerful enough he or she can create a link with the Abyssal Layer he's dwelling in, and gains the power to alter it as if he/she were a deity, which give him great leverage over its inhabitants.

Anyway, Demon Lords and Archdevils are too simiar for my taste. Demons should be way more chaotic that anything in the Prime. I don't like when Demon Lords have courts, hierarchies, chains of command and the like. I think a Demon Lord should just have a load of barely controlled strong demons chained with planar bindings, and treat the rest of their "subjects" as a herd of wild beasts that he or she directs more or less efficiently against a given target with threats of violence and bribes, but won't have much control over them when not bringing them to battle.

[Eldan]

Ah, but remember: many demons, especially high ranking ones, are not just wild beasts. They are highly intelligent, wise and charismatic. And I don't think chaotic has to mean "no hierarchy".

[123456789blaaa]

I bring gifts. (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1060) It's not official, obviously, but the creature catalog has a wide variety of cool conversions from earlier editions.

Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[afroakuma]

...
.......
...........................................
:smallconfused:

Indeed. And since the link to Ranais has been provided, I'm now obligated to follow up with there is no list of gods worshiped on Ranais apart from Orcus, do not ask and the Lovelorn are just ordinary wraiths who call themselves that. If there are any questions that do not involve my conjecture on either of the preceding topics, I'll be happy to cover them.


it just seams to me that a bunch of anarhcists wouldn't even want to bully other demons, and that other demons wouldnt listen to a buly in thier ranks

That presumes that they're devoted to philosophical anarchy. Demons are hedonists, cowards, brutes and slackers. Making their own lives comfortable, safe and easy at the expense of others is absolutely something they would do. Also, you need to realize that I'm using "bully" loosely here; a higher-ranked demon will murder those that refuse to serve it. Possibly devour their souls, too. Demons don't appreciate serving anything as a general rule, but they tend towards (this is not an absolute, mind you) a healthy regard for their own skins. A demon lord is not some being accepting responsibilities in a hierarchy; it's a being who has reached the level of power where it can legitimately claim, over some amount of territory or some aspect of evil, "It's all about MEEEEEE!" and have that legitimacy backed up by nothing nearby being able to kill said demon lord.


Anyway, Demon Lords and Archdevils are too simiar for my taste. Demons should be way more chaotic that anything in the Prime. I don't like when Demon Lords have courts, hierarchies, chains of command and the like.

Very few of them have anything of the sort, and nothing has the kind of structure that Hell does. Graz'zt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KUJE2xs-RE&t=0m45s) has a majordomo and Orcus has big structured legions of undead, but Malcanthet's "court" is just an eternal orgy. I suppose technically so is Graz'zt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KUJE2xs-RE&t=0m45s)'s.

[Menteith]

Is there a way for Demons and Devils to send each other messages in a peaceful way? I know that the Blood War has been stopped (incredibly rarely, but it has) when circumstances demanded it - how do these cease-fires come about?

Specifically, I'm wondering if there is an embassy, a being on either side who is responsible for passing on messages, or any kind of established channel of communication.

[Occasional Sage]

I think that if a Demon Lord becomes powerful enough he or she can create a link with the Abyssal Layer he's dwelling in, and gains the power to alter it as if he/she were a deity, which give him great leverage over its inhabitants.

Anyway, Demon Lords and Archdevils are too simiar for my taste. Demons should be way more chaotic that anything in the Prime. I don't like when Demon Lords have courts, hierarchies, chains of command and the like. I think a Demon Lord should just have a load of barely controlled strong demons chained with planar bindings, and treat the rest of their "subjects" as a herd of wild beasts that he or she directs more or less efficiently against a given target with threats of violence and bribes, but won't have much control over them when not bringing them to battle.

So... feudalism.

[Gildedragon]

Nah, feudalism had systems of honor, due behavior and reciprocity across the board.
Think more Lord of the Flies or post-apocalyptic-bandit-raider-junkies

That or the sort of barbarian-pretending-culture, savage-tinged-refinement that the Romantics liked to envision and postulate... Only much more so, and much darker than the rosy-gold tones of the poets.

[123456789blaaa]

What made you decide to make the Cult of the Faceless?

[Coidzor]

I seem to recall some connection between The Underdark and the plane of Shadow, is this supported by canon? If so, is this the general case of underdarks or specific to the Underdarks of Oerth, Toril, or both?


I think that if a Demon Lord becomes powerful enough he or she can create a link with the Abyssal Layer he's dwelling in, and gains the power to alter it as if he/she were a deity, which give him great leverage over its inhabitants.

Isn't that the principle difference between being a demon lord (which is basically a catch-all term for unique fiends who are also demons, tanar'ri or obyrith or otherwise) and a demon prince, that ability to form a link with a layer of the Abyss? Or possibly the presence of a link so made? :smallconfused:


Anyway, Demon Lords and Archdevils are too simiar for my taste. Demons should be way more chaotic that anything in the Prime. I don't like when Demon Lords have courts, hierarchies, chains of command and the like. I think a Demon Lord should just have a load of barely controlled strong demons chained with planar bindings, and treat the rest of their "subjects" as a herd of wild beasts that he or she directs more or less efficiently against a given target with threats of violence and bribes, but won't have much control over them when not bringing them to battle.

That always sounded like most of the way such were described aside from Graz'zt and other ones who were powerful and successful enough or persuasive enough to make the demons want to work for them because doing so was winning, to borrow some tiger blood.

[afroakuma]

Is there a way for Demons and Devils to send each other messages in a peaceful way? I know that the Blood War has been stopped (incredibly rarely, but it has) when circumstances demanded it - how do these cease-fires come about?

Specifically, I'm wondering if there is an embassy, a being on either side who is responsible for passing on messages, or any kind of established channel of communication.

Well, on Hell's side, there's Zapan and the Ministry of Immortal Relations. You can send a mephit if you want to annoy the recipient; you can go through intermediaries if your message isn't crucial; but for high-level negotiations you need the appropriate personnel.

Generally, this will involve sending a herald or other representative, expendable but trustworthy, through a known and secure portal and with some form of advance notice. Many fiends have suitable peons to use, the most prominent being Graz'zt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KUJE2xs-RE&t=0m45s)'s majordomo Verin. Orcus has various high-level undead and worshipers, Demogorgon has his aquatic underlings, et cetera. A full-blooded fiend will rarely be used for this purpose.

The Abyss is terrible for receiving messages, though. It has no hierarchy or organization. You really have to know how to reach out to contacts on an individual level. Hell at least can be corresponded with.

On the rare occasions that the Blood War has stopped - all two of them - in one instance it was just a very obvious "hey guys? We hate them more" kind of thing; in the other, it was serious enough that fiends were going back and forth, and not low-level ones either.


What made you decide to make the Cult of the Faceless?

No idea. I had just been thinking of covering Juiblex as an Elder Evil around that time.

[G.Cube]

I'm sure it's been asked before, but has anyone ever bothered to make a map of the planes, complete with borders, cities, and major land(planar?) marks?

[Babale]

Kind of a random question here... The Malconvoker Prestige Class lets you summon Fiends and trick them, then use them to do Good.

So a hero summons (Or, to make things more interesting, Binds or Planar Ally-s) some demons or devils and uses them to save children from a burning orphanage, or to take down an Evil Wizard, etc. etc. Obviously the demons and devils would be pissed off, right? But how would they react? Would they just seek revenge, or would it have some sort of longer-lasting impact?

Now, the interesting part. What about a reverse Malconvoker who summons Angels, Archons, or Eladrins and uses them to do Evil? How would the Celestials of the various types react to this? Would they be welcomed back into their previous roles, or shunned for the Evil they have done? Would they have a way to redeem themselves? Could this make a Celestial Fall and turn to Evil?

[Cirrylius]

I think that if a Demon Lord becomes powerful enough he or she can create a link with the Abyssal Layer he's dwelling in, and gains the power to alter it as if he/she were a deity, which give him great leverage over its inhabitants.
I believe that's supported by canon, although alter-as-deity might be going slightly too far. I do remember that there's a fair number of barely-sub-Prince unique demons in the Abyss because of the dangers of achieving Princehood; the link is reciprocal, meaning that if the Princeling doesn't psychically wrestle the layer into submission, he's devoured by it.



Is there a way for Demons and Devils to send each other messages in a peaceful way?

I imagine that the Baatezu would be more likely to accept an emissary waving a white flag, albeit with tremendous reservation and every damn precaution he can imagine; the thought of being punished by his superiors for potentially losing an opportunity to get one up on the demons because he didn't have the skill/stones to try and parlay would force him into it. And as for trying to contact the Tanar'ri, devils would probably just send several low/mid rankers who had been showing too much ambition or were trying to work of reprimands, who could survive being attacked by rank-and-file demons, and just hope that whoever's in charge of the mob won't just eat 'em or send 'em back to their commander in a catapult.

These'd just be prelimenaries, of course. Setting up real talks would take infinitely more time and maneuvering.


I'm sure it's been asked before, but has anyone ever bothered to make a map of the planes, complete with borders, cities, and major land(planar?) marks?
Heh. Be a big f*****g map.:smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

You mention two occasions when the Blood War stopped. I can only think of one, so, what are they?

[hamishspence]

I believe that's supported by canon, although alter-as-deity might be going slightly too far. I do remember that there's a fair number of barely-sub-Prince unique demons in the Abyss because of the dangers of achieving Princehood; the link is reciprocal, meaning that if the Princeling doesn't psychically wrestle the layer into submission, he's devoured by it.

I think Fraz'Urblu was one- though he can't adjust his layer any more, according to his Demonomicon article.

[afroakuma]

I'm sure it's been asked before, but has anyone ever bothered to make a map of the planes, complete with borders, cities, and major land(planar?) marks?

Infinite. No can do.


So a hero summons (Or, to make things more interesting, Binds or Planar Ally-s) some demons or devils and uses them to save children from a burning orphanage, or to take down an Evil Wizard, etc. etc. Obviously the demons and devils would be pissed off, right? But how would they react? Would they just seek revenge, or would it have some sort of longer-lasting impact?

Well, Malconvokers merely get bonuses to deceive fiends; any idiot could do it. Fiends can still suspect a malconvoker of shenanigans if their bidding is really bizarre. Fiends who have been tricked into a bargain, though, are very likely to seek revenge.


Now, the interesting part. What about a reverse Malconvoker who summons Angels, Archons, or Eladrins and uses them to do Evil? How would the Celestials of the various types react to this? Would they be welcomed back into their previous roles, or shunned for the Evil they have done? Would they have a way to redeem themselves? Could this make a Celestial Fall and turn to Evil?

Again, Celestials would likely be able to figure out the stupidly evil requests. Assuming they could not, they would likely return to some sorrowful colleagues and set about to make reparations if possible. Some acts are definitely enough to get booted out and forced to seek atonement, though. It could not in and of itself make a celestial fall, though. Coercion and deception don't output intent. :smalltongue:


You mention two occasions when the Blood War stopped. I can only think of one, so, what are they?

Technically there were three; the attack of the Upper Planes, the threat of the mind flayers, and the discovery of the Ghoresh Chasm.

[Go!Go!Go!]

is there a way to repprogram a modron or a inevitible other than the normal ways of changing a cretures mind? i know about diplomancy, mindrape, dominate monsteer and all that but i want to know how they affect robotlike thing.s

[Cirrylius]

I'm sure it's been asked before, but has anyone ever bothered to make a map of the planes, complete with borders, cities, and major land(planar?) marks?
Anyway, seriously.
There were big poster maps in the Planescape boxes, for the outer planes and Sigil at least. I doubt anyone's updated 'em all, though.


is there a way to repprogram a modron or a inevitible other than the normal ways of changing a cretures mind?
Best Manchurian Candidate ever. I can see a Slaad reprogramming squad peeling open a Monodrone's eyelid and showing him footage of higher drones doing horrible chaotic things while a crowd of Xaositects chant in the background:smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

Wouldn't really work. Not only are they immune to mind-affecting, they don't even know that higher ranked modrons exist.

[Babale]

What sort of psychological impact would being tricked or forced into doing Evil have on a Celestial? Could the trauma cause them to go insane or turn to Evil, at least for the weaker Celestials?

[Asmodai]

Technically there were three; the attack of the Upper Planes, the threat of the mind flayers, and the discovery of the Ghoresh Chasm.

Interesting, could you elaborate a bit on these three or are they just mentioned seeds?

[Cirrylius]

Not only are they immune to mind-affecting,
Well, no. Slaadi are not exactly known for their efficiency and planning. Funny to watch 'em try, though.

...up until a frustrated Death Slaad homebrews a Modron-specific spell that explicitly ignores that immunity, I suppose. Then you're just watching Wall-e get torn a new brain-hole:smallfrown:


they don't even know that higher ranked modrons exist.
They understand the existence of Duodrones. You're right about the others, though; the only instance I can think of where they recognize other Modrons is when they get judged by tribunal. It's specifically mentioned in... Planes of Law, I think, that they find the experience terrifying and incomprehensible.

[Proud Tortoise]

Afro, do you have any info on the Ship of One Hundred that expands on Wikipedia's single paragrab?



They understand the existence of Duodrones. You're right about the others, though; the only instance I can think of where they recognize other Modrons is when they get judged by tribunal. It's specifically mentioned in... Planes of Law, I think, that they find the experience terrifying and incomprehensible.

Each modron can only perceive the modrons of the levels below them and those directly above them. All the higher-ranking modrons are like RL gods- conjectured about, but not proven. I have no idea why this doesn't lead to anarchy though- oh, wait. Modrons.

[Cirrylius]

Each modron can only perceive the modrons of the levels below them and those directly above them.
I... yeah, that's what I said. :smallconfused:Monodrone answers to Duodrone, and that's it. Typically.



All the higher-ranking modrons are like RL gods- conjectured about, but not proven.
*shrug* The trubunal thing is was 2nd Ed. canon. I don't know whether it was a purposeful inclusion or whether it was an accidental contradiction. I thought it made bitchin' fluff.

[afroakuma]

is there a way to repprogram a modron or a inevitible other than the normal ways of changing a cretures mind? i know about diplomancy, mindrape, dominate monsteer and all that but i want to know how they affect robotlike thing.s

Modrons and inevitables are both immune to mind-affecting shenanigans. Modrons in particular cannot be "reprogrammed" in any way and remain true modrons (Primus will disconnect them or recall them for reabsorption). If an inevitable were somehow reprogrammed, its fellows would know and would make efforts to reclaim it/destroy it/replace it.


What sort of psychological impact would being tricked or forced into doing Evil have on a Celestial? Could the trauma cause them to go insane or turn to Evil, at least for the weaker Celestials?

No no no. Would you expect a devil to crack and become Good upon finding out it had committed a good deed? When a celestial discovers it has done something wrong, it seeks atonement and to make reparations.


Interesting, could you elaborate a bit on these three or are they just mentioned seeds?

I've done so before, but here we go again:

• The celestials decided to take the Blood War as an opportunity to stamp out all evil. The Blood War decided it wasn't having any of that nonsense. 3000 celestials survived.

• The mind flayers popped up out of nowhere in force wielding massive mental powers. Even the aboleths had no record of them, and the planes didn't have any lore to share. Witnessing their expansion across wildspace, the Blood War called a truce to kick them out of the Astral Plane. The pause might have gone longer had the gith rebellion not hit around the same time.

• Most recently, the Ghoresh Chasm was discovered in Hades. At its bottom a seal marked with symbols of law, chaos and evil. The War paused so the three major fiendish races could meet and study it in an attempt to unlock its secrets. The War resumed about five minutes after the conference began. Don't ask what's in the Chasm; that is unknown.

[Babale]

No no no. Would you expect a devil to crack and become Good upon finding out it had committed a good deed? When a celestial discovers it has done something wrong, it seeks atonement and to make reparations.


True enough. But in that case, what DOES make a Celestial fall? Because obviously there are Evil Celestials (and Good Fiends, though they're much rarer) so something must do it... Is it just that fallen Celestials still think that they are doing Good, and are just mistaken?

[Cirrylius]

True enough. But in that case, what DOES make a Celestial fall? Because obviously there are Evil Celestials (and Good Fiends, though they're much rarer) so something must do it... Is it just that fallen Celestials still think that they are doing Good, and are just mistaken?
While celestials are typically devoid of negative emotions and impulses, all living things mutate over time, and powerful enough or protracted enough stimuli can alter them enough for rot to set in. Sometimes the inability to perform their duties adequately can make them unstable, and they begin to overreact, sacrificing altruism for effectiveness. Witnessing or performing too much violence can warp them over time (that's how Asmodeus got his start in some accounts). Baalzebul was a paragon of beauty and virtue, and eventually his pride ate him out from the inside. If too many allies or wards fail a celestial, or if he fails himself, frustration and contempt can rise.Righteous anger can become mindless rage, good causes become inexorable obsessions, platonic love becomes physical lust, high standards become rigid intolerance.

[Coidzor]

Who would you consider the most unlucky bastard in all the planes or who had gotten the rawest deal?

[AuraTwilight]

Adahn. Being told you don't exist and proceeding to poof back out of existence really sucks.

[Yora]

Wasn't there a guy in Torment who had a curse that inversed the directon of his digestion? That really sucked.

[LeshLush]

Andromalius, Olidammara's former herald. He repented of thievery on his deathbed, hoping to cheat his god of his, and thus pull off the ultimate act of thievery. Olidammara thought it was funny, but didn't want to ruin the joke by accepting his soul anyway, so he cast him into the void between existence and nonexistence.

[Go!Go!Go!]

who first built the inevitibles anyway? and who controls them? do they have a leader or a whowatchesthewatchmen group that keeps an eye on thier ranks? are they only in 3rd adition? do they patrol the inner plains or are they mostly conserned with the matireal plain?

[afroakuma]

Afro, do you have any info on the Ship of One Hundred that expands on Wikipedia's single paragrab?

There was never much written about it. It's just another shiny plot hook. So many plot hooks.


what DOES make a Celestial fall? Because obviously there are Evil Celestials (and Good Fiends, though they're much rarer) so something must do it... Is it just that fallen Celestials still think that they are doing Good, and are just mistaken?

Nothing specific. There's no consistent way to process Good into Evil. It takes an awful lot, though, and it's not an immediate thing.


who first built the inevitibles anyway?

That is unknown. They first appeared shortly after the fall and disappearance of a race of lawful beings known as aphanacts, about whom little is known (read: don't ask, that's it).


and who controls them? do they have a leader or a whowatchesthewatchmen group that keeps an eye on thier ranks?

The inevitables are directed by unknown intelligences on Neumannus known as "forge elders." These intelligences have never been revealed, but it is known that they act as dispatchers for the inevitables, and are aware if a task has been left incomplete. The forge elders can and do monitor inevitables for errors in programming and upgrade models that have proven insufficient for their duties.


are they only in 3rd adition?

As "inevitables," yes. The marut has existed much longer as a standalone being.


do they patrol the inner plains or are they mostly conserned with the matireal plain?

They go wherever they are told to go.

[Yora]

As "inevitables," yes. The marut has existed much longer as a standalone being.
And looked a lot cooler.

Yes, even cooler than the 3rd Ed. design.

http://www.ratcreve.com/site/images/planescape/marut.jpg

[Eldan]

Oooh. I feel stupid now. I never made the connection. I knew there was a lawful golemlike creature called Marut in Planescape, and an Inevitable called Marut in third edition, and never noticed that they were the same.

[Cirrylius]

The inevitables are directed by unknown intelligences on Neumannus known as "forge elders."
:smallconfused:Waitwaitwait...

...Neumannus? As in John Von Neumann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_probe#Von_Neumann_probes)??

Awesome:smallbiggrin:

[Asmodai]

I've heard that in 3E the Neogi moved into the general planes instead of Space. Was there any new information or adventures related to them? Did they make any new monsters for them? Where do they fit into Planescape?

[Coidzor]

I've heard that in 3E the Neogi moved into the general planes instead of Space. Was there any new information or adventures related to them? Did they make any new monsters for them? Where do they fit into Planescape?

In general 3.5, they were covered in Lords of Madness at the very least, as I recall. No new monsters for the Neogi, but there is one adventure site/dungeon crawl detailed there and a couple of customization options for Neogi as well as various lifestages of neogi detailed there.

They were also adapted to Eberron in particular as Daelkyr corrupted dwarves (probably). I believe that was primarily dealt with in articles on the WOTC website though.

[afroakuma]

I've heard that in 3E the Neogi moved into the general planes instead of Space. Was there any new information or adventures related to them? Did they make any new monsters for them? Where do they fit into Planescape?

Neogi are generally horrible creatures of wildspace, and occasionally infest Prime worlds as well. A neogi-like race known as the tso plies trade on the Planes, particularly the Lower Planes. It has not been stated, but it is likely that the tso and the neogi have dealings.

[kornwiser]

Is there anything a party of low-level prime adventurers would be able to offer a baatezu in exchange for aiding them to take back their world from a tanar'ri invasion, or would the baatezu not even give them the time of day? Obviously if he did help, the baatezu would screw them over in the end, but to what extent?

[Jigokuro]

What is that gravity like at the inner side of a crystal sphere*? Could one build stuff directly on the inside of a crystal sphere (possibly needing to magically control gravity pending the previous Q)?

*and out in the Phlostigon for that matter, but I'm less curious there. It's probably something simple like none or subjective or based on the nearest flow. And my DM will never have us going out of our sphere. :p

[CRtwenty]

Let's assume we have a soul that worships a god like Fharlanghn who resides on the Material Plane. What would happen if that soul was made into a Petitioner? Would they be brought back to life?

[Asmodai]

Afro, could you possibly name at least three exotic and rare items of Planescape lore that would be cool to steal? (if you add a dash of lore so i can color the conversations a bit better, even better!)

[Proud Tortoise]

Afro, do you have any information, theories, etc. on the Codex of the Infinite Planes? Which publications has it appeared in, particularly adventures?

[Gildedragon]

@Asmodai: must they be canonical and planescape exclusive? if not...
Lady of Pain's Teddy Bear
Odilammara's Shell
Any god's favored weapon
A devil's contract
A gear from Mechanus
A trumpet archon's trumpet
A hound archon's chew toy
A gith silver sword
A key to a portal in sigil, or a map / list of said portals

[Lord_Gareth]

How much of a power boost does being in their own divine realm give a deity, in terms of personal combat? Is it enough to overcome great power disparity (that is, could a Lesser deity feel safe from assault by a Greater deity, provided the Lesser one was in its own realm?)