By RAW, is an optimized epic wizard a match for published deities? [Archive]

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snana

2013-02-20, 04:50 AM

By RAW, is an epic wizard a match for published deities?

Two homebrew limitations I add is: one, no deity can do anything that changes the fundamentals (i.e., Mystra removing the weave); two, portfoilo sense acts like a powerful divination spell rather than instant awareness. (So no deity with the death portfolio can immediately sense, no matter what, that s/he is going to die in a few millenniums at the hands of this baby who will become an epic wizard.)

Other limitations is that the epic wizard cannot mitigate spells by relying on external factors (i.e., solars). He can only rely on himself, and how RAW applies to his own spellcasting. After all, how many solars there are (or if they even exist) is subject to DM judging, even if the DM runs strictly by RAW.

(Coincidentally, solars do exist in my campaign setting. I'm just trying to create a self-reliant wizard.)

Here's the background that motivated the question.

Previously, I had this powerful epic NPC wizard who was something of a magical scientist. He spent his time writing out the laws of the universe, mapping all of the planes in the multiverse, and if pressed, destroying evil (usually evil, sometimes good) deities who threatened to upset the balance in the world.

This epic NPC wizard comes from a strange futuristic world that I homebrewed, some mix between D&D and GURPS. Powerful, knowledgeable fella. I'm trying to maintain some semblance of working physics and chemistry so that the players can be creative with their craft skill, which is why I felt it was necessary to do this.

I never saw the need to stat him out. The players were merely after one of his major artifacts. He may as well be a god. But here's the rub--he's the older brother of one of the player characters (all of whom are currently under level 5, lol). He's currently lost in some faraway plane, but they will reunite shortly.

(I look forward to it. This epic wizard is neutral evil, his sibling is a younger sister who's a paladin. He loves his younger sister, but the feeling is not returned.)

Of course, I could just continue to run him as pretty much the DM's avatar, but as a simulationist I dislike this. I want him to be a character mechanically able to stand his own against a god.

I was wondering if having a smart character with epic spellcasting could do so.

JaronK

2013-02-20, 05:33 AM

You don't even need to be Epic. Just cast Genesis, making a plane that's got Flowing Time 100,000 and Timeless. Now, from your hyper speed plane, open Gates and attack each god, one after the other. Just throw out whatever attacks you want (you'll need Transdimensional Spell), and as long as you can connect in any way you will eventually kill them before they can ever react.

JaronK

Erik Vale

2013-02-20, 05:34 AM

By published do you mean statted out:
If no/not neccessarily, no, I point you to Ao, followed by yes, there are gods that are basically 20th level fighters with outsider levels and devine ranks [red knight is the first one that comes to my head].
If yes, maybe. I'll leave that to optimisers. Oh wait, pun puns, yes, a wizard can match/beat a god. If your assuming a reasonable/semi high, I'll leave that to others.

snana

2013-02-20, 05:44 AM

JaronK

2013-02-20, 05:59 AM

What if it's a deity with alter reality who sees this coming?

Unless they can attack you before you start the attack run, there's really not much they can do about it. You can probe their defenses all you want. You can also do a pretty good job of making it almost impossible to teleport into your plane, with the right precautions.

Of course, if they kill you before you can start the attack, that's different.

JaronK

Mnemnosyne

2013-02-20, 06:45 AM

Maybe, but it really kinda depends on which god you're talking about.

Any god that has the Life and Death salient divine ability can just choose to kill a mortal, no saving throw or way to escape it, they just die; all he needs to do is have the mortal be in a location he can sense.

There's also the Rejuvenation salient divine ability that a number of deities possess. Even if you manage to kill them, unless you have a higher divine rank, they don't stay dead; no mortal can ever kill a god with Rejuvenation, since the only way to get them to stay dead is to be a higher divine rank when you kill them.

Some of the printed deities are, in fact, quite weak. Others are much stronger, and simply can't be defeated by mortals. In FR, Lathander, and perhaps a few others have the Rejuvenation ability; Kelemvor, Chauntea, Silvanus, and probably a few others have Life and Death, and so on.

Powerful divinations (and therefore portfolio sense) can tell you when you're going to die, too. If you're ruling that mind blank blocks even portfolio sense (note that metafaculty penetrates even mind blank, and if portfolio sense is meant to be as powerful as the most powerful divinations, then it should penetrate mind blank too) it might not tell the deity who's going to kill it...but it would tell the deity time and manner of death, so it can simply pile on a bunch of contingencies to prevent that death. So, if you tried to kill Kelemvor, for instance, he'd know he's going to die 160 days ahead of the event; even if he doesn't know who's going to kill him, he contingencies himself up so he can't die in that manner, then as soon as his attempted murderer is revealed to him, he can use Life and Death and instantly kill the mortal with no save and no manner to avoid it.

On Genesis:
Note that flowing time shenanigans don't necessarily work via RAW; the default D&D cosmology doesn't actually have any flowing time planes, for one. It should also be noted that the description of the genesis spell does not actually say you can determine planar traits, either - if read carefully, it does not mention planar traits at all. Absent any mention that you can alter them in any way, I've never understood the argument that you can, except through massive overinterpretation of "The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain." But that sentence uses the word factors, not traits or planar traits. Trying to say that genesis allows you to choose traits feels very much to me like an "it doesn't say I can't!" argument.

I'm sure this has been argued a lot and there are solid camps that say you can do that, but honestly I don't see it.

JaronK

2013-02-20, 06:50 AM

Eerie

2013-02-20, 06:54 AM

Creating Pun-Puns is forbidden?

Wings of Peace

2013-02-20, 07:14 AM

Easily with those house rules. Normally the hardest part of killing a deity is the time travel and if/then shenanigans required to get around portfolio sense. However, if that sense is turned into a divination it can be blocked easily with the Vecna-Blooded template.

Alleran

2013-02-20, 07:30 AM

However, if that sense is turned into a divination it can be blocked easily with the Vecna-Blooded template.
Unless, of course, you happen to be Vecna.

Or a god with Divine Splendour. Maybe.

gooddragon1

2013-02-20, 07:33 AM

Pun pun is the answer to this. The ability to (exactly as written) "grant an ability" with no other restrictions leads to custom abilities such as "I win". A 20th level wizard performs a shapechange spell and has it outright. So if the deities didn't do this first a 20th level wizard can solo all of them at once (especially if they don't sense it outright).

Wings of Peace

2013-02-20, 07:33 AM

Unless, of course, you happen to be Vecna.

Or a god with Divine Splendour. Maybe.

Technically by strict raw it would work on vecna too. I'm not sure how Divine Spendour will help scry on the character...

Larkas

2013-02-20, 07:36 AM

If by "match" you mean "kill as an epic wizard", the chances are slim to nonexistent, depending on the deity.

If by "match" you mean "equal in power given an epic wizard arsenal", the chances get pretty good to guaranteed. IIRC, if you can make an Ice Assassin of any deity, you can order it to bestow you its divine ranks. Rinse and repeat until you're as strong as the target deity. Or stronger, if you like.

snana

2013-02-20, 07:37 AM

I guess I'm going to have to say that Pun Pun is off the table. Probably because he's a "solid" answer to most optimization queries, and so is unhelpful to this question, even if technically correct.

Reasonably high levels of optimization.

Edit

I'm also a bit iffy on the genesis attack. What happens before the attack? There will be many divination attempts. A clever god should have spells protecting him/her, right? So who goes first and pulls it off?

Wings of Peace

2013-02-20, 07:50 AM

I guess I'm going to have to say that Pun Pun is off the table. Probably because he's a "solid" answer to most optimization queries, and so is unhelpful to this question, even if technically correct.

Reasonably high levels of optimization.

A beastland ferocity/delay death combination will still make epic spells ridiculously abusable even without using chain summons etc.

Jack_Simth

2013-02-20, 08:22 AM

Two homebrew limitations I add is: one, no deity can do anything that changes the fundamentals (i.e., Mystra removing the weave); two, portfoilo sense acts like a powerful divination spell rather than instant awareness. (So no deity with the death portfolio can immediately sense, no matter what, that s/he is going to die in a few millenniums at the hands of this baby who will become an epic wizard.)

Other limitations is that the epic wizard cannot mitigate spells by relying on external factors (i.e., solars). He can only rely on himself, and how RAW applies to his own spellcasting. After all, how many solars there are (or if they even exist) is subject to DM judging, even if the DM runs strictly by RAW.

(Coincidentally, solars do exist in my campaign setting. I'm just trying to create a self-reliant wizard.)

Here's the background that motivated the question.

Previously, I had this powerful epic NPC wizard who was something of a magical scientist. He spent his time writing out the laws of the universe, mapping all of the planes in the multiverse, and if pressed, destroying evil (usually evil, sometimes good) deities who threatened to upset the balance in the world.

This epic NPC wizard comes from a strange futuristic world that I homebrewed, some mix between D&D and GURPS. Powerful, knowledgeable fella. I'm trying to maintain some semblance of working physics and chemistry so that the players can be creative with their craft skill, which is why I felt it was necessary to do this.

I never saw the need to stat him out. The players were merely after one of his major artifacts. He may as well be a god. But here's the rub--he's the older brother of one of the player characters (all of whom are currently under level 5, lol). He's currently lost in some faraway plane, but they will reunite shortly.

(I look forward to it. This epic wizard is neutral evil, his sibling is a younger sister who's a paladin. He loves his younger sister, but the feeling is not returned.)

Of course, I could just continue to run him as pretty much the DM's avatar, but as a simulationist I dislike this. I want him to be a character mechanically able to stand his own against a god.

I was wondering if having a smart character with epic spellcasting could do so.
Sure, although in some cases "kill" will have to be "trap forever", and even then, the deities that automatically roll a 20 on every single save (greater deities, rank 16-20) with Rejuvenation are safe from him (and those with the Life & Death salient divine ability can kill the Wizard, no save) (note: There stop being exceptions if you allow simulacrums, ice assasins, or critters made with the Shadow Epic seed (Lost Empires of Faerun) to have the same divine ranks as the original - in that case, the Wizard makes a copy of the target - or a better god than the target - and has the copy deal with the opponent).

And even without Summoning or Binding Solars: Simulacrum + a Rod of Excellent Magic - or the Shadow Epic spell seed - can make enough copies of the caster to have the same effect (although it's much slower with the Rod of Excellent Magic - and slightly slower with the Shadow seed - to do so than it is to Permanently Summon Planetars - which are actually a slightly better choice than Solars, as they have 9th level spellcasting but a lower CR). But then you just pump the save DC and SR penetration on an Epic spell making use of Reveal, Forsee, and Energy up to the point where the deity can't make it except on a 20, and then... cast it twice (or enough times that even with constant 20's, they'll still run out of HP; Energy is only reflex half, after all). For non-Greater deities with Rejuvination, you'll need to use the Shadow seed to duplicate Trap the Soul, and keep them in your pocket forever. For Greater Deities with Rejuvination, well, you'll need to copy a deity to do it.

Psyren

2013-02-20, 09:15 AM

open Gates and attack each god, one after the other.

Can't gods prevent Gates from opening near them? No action is given for this ability, so it might even be a standing or local condition that they could have running even while you've effectively stopped time.

I'm also a bit iffy on the genesis attack. What happens before the attack? There will be many divination attempts. A clever god should have spells protecting him/her, right? So who goes first and pulls it off?

There is no clear answer to this. The open-endedness of Portfolio Sense and most divinations, the mental and mystical gymnastics required to fool it, the countless other variables like time travel, other deities (rival and ally), overdeities etc. just make this entire scenario impossible to put to paper in any one definitive way.

Xenogears

2013-02-20, 10:17 AM

Some gods? Sure. All gods? No way. Have you ever looked at Boccobs stats? Can't find my copy of Deities and Demigods right now but from what I remember: He knows ALL wizard spells, can research new spells instantly, can cast them all spontaneously, the are all automatically silent, still, and quickened (if he wants them to be), he can create any kind of magic item, and that hasn't even touched most of his divine powers yet. Oh and the Deities & Demigods book mentions that if you are using the Epic Level Handbook you can replace some of their feats with Epic ones so he also has Epic Spellcasting.

Alleran

2013-02-20, 11:07 AM

Can't gods prevent Gates from opening near them? No action is given for this ability, so it might even be a standing or local condition that they could have running even while you've effectively stopped time.
The only text I can find right now (late, very tired, etc.) is this:

"A deity of rank 6 or higher not only has control over the environment [of their divine realm], but also controls links to the Astral Plane. Manipulating a realm’s astral links renders teleportation and similar effects useless within the realm. The deity can designate certain locales within the realm where astral links remain intact. Likewise, the deity can block off the realm from planar portals or designate locations where portals are possible."

Basically, if a rank 6 lesser god doesn't want portals entering into their divine realm (which is 100 feet per rank radius on the Material Plane, so 600 feet, or 1 mile radius per rank on an Outer Plane, so 6 miles), then there won't be portals entering into their divine realm. Period.

Their remote sensing also penetrates any barrier except that of a higher-ranked deity (stated), with regards to shielding from divination.

Alienist

2013-02-20, 11:18 AM

It says you can make the environment into anything you can visualize. Since planar traits are part of the environment of the plane by definition, that means you can have the planar traits. Specifically, the line is "The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize."

That just allows you to change the appearance, though even there there are limitations, such as not being able to make buildings.

"This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth)"

Funny how when people are bending the rules well and truly out of shape they always stop quoting as soon as they've got what they want (the broad strokes) but then don't bother quoting the specific details of how whatever it is is supposed to work:

"The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain."

That's what allows you to muck with planar traits.

I think this gets a pretty heavy "citation required" slapped all over it.

There are three standard abuses for Genesis:
(1) Choosing the time trait
(2) Making it out of gold and thereby becoming mega rich
(3) Making it out of pure uranium / neutronium / degenerate matter / something even more exotic than that, then casting Gate and connecting it to the bad guys realm and nuking them in the face.

The 'standard' interpretation of Genesis allowing fiddling with time traits fails numerous tests of basic English comprehension:

Firstly the phrase "anything you can visualise" is being interpreted as "anything you can imagine". Sometimes these are sort of synonyms. Given that it is immediately followed by a list of things that you can see this is a dodgy equivalency. These are not exactly the same, and obviously interpreting it that way greatly increases the power of it.

Secondly the phrase "planar traits" does not occur anywhere in the spell description. This all by itself should be a show stopper. Clearly it's not RAW if it is never written.

Thirdly when we look at planar traits we find that there are different categories of traits. Gravity and Time are listed as part of the 'physical' traits, which also includes how big the plane is, and how hard it is to alter the traits.

So lets look at the physical traits:
(a) gravity - not mentioned
(b) time - not mentioned
(c) size - strictly prescribed
(d) how hard it is to alter the traits - not mentioned

Given how important (d) is, you'd think if they had control over that, it would mention it.

They say that the demi-plane is finite, which is one of the choices (infinite, finite or wrap-around). It doesn't say that it separates it from the rest of the ethereal plane - in fact it says it is surrounded by ethereal vapours and proto-matter.*

*Yet people always say that it is cut off from every other plane - should add that to the list of abuses above, people have remarkably poor reading skills.

My bad - it says it has "limited access" but doesn't define what that means. (Epic Facepalm) (Hopefully that's defined elsewhere, but I couldn't find it in the SRD)

Ooh! But I found a couple of other cool things:
There's a nifty prestige class you can enter f you have a BAB of 21+ and live on a demiplane.
Then there's:
"Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire."

So, the time-sped-up-gate-kill thing doesn't work against deities on their home planes.

Which makes the rest of this kind of pointless, since the attack mode doesn't even work in the first place regardless of how you interpret Genesis. But dagnabit someone on the internet is WRONG

http://xkcd.com/386/

Fourthly, it beggars belief that you could control time and gravity, but not make buildings. It shows there is something very WTF??? about this interpretation, it doesn't jibe with the remainder of its actual text.

Fifthly - back to traits:
Nothing in the Morphic list fits the spell's description.
Nothing in the Alignment traits fits the description.
Nothing in the Magic traits fits the description. There is a default -
"Normal Magic
This magic trait means that all spells and supernatural abilities function as written. Unless otherwise noted in a description, every plane has the normal magic trait."

So we can safely say that Genesis creates planes with normal magic trait (only).

Some of the stuff in the Elemental and Energy traits kind of (but not really - e.g. choosing the atmosphere and water) fits the spell's description.**

**So this is presumably where we get demi-planes made out of plutonium from, but it presupposes that you have control over traits even though the spell never mentions traits.

E.g.
"Water-Dominant
Planes with this trait are mostly liquid. Visitors who can’t breathe water or reach a pocket of air will likely drown. Creatures of the fire subtype are extremely uncomfortable on water-dominant planes. Those made of fire take 1d10 points of damage each round.'"

Doesn't really match the description. You can "determine the water factor". But it doesn't say how much. And it certainly doesn't say the plane starts damaging fire creatures if they're hovering in the air (whereas on a properly water dominant plane a fire creature would take damage even if they were encased in a large air bubble).

Partly the problem is because the spell is kind of vague when it comes to interpreting what the word "environment" is supposed to mean, but we should note that it is vague restrictive, not vague permissive.

To reiterate - the spell tells you that you can choose what the ground looks like, but it doesn't tell you what it's made of. It also doesn't say you get to choose what it is made of.

Because it doesn't say, that's where interpretation should come in. Having opened up the floor to interpretation, the prosecution would like to present the following evidence.

Within this area, the deity can set any temperature that is normal for the plane where the realm is located (for the Material Plane, any temperature from -20ºF to 120ºF), and fill the area with scents and sounds as the deity sees fit. Sounds can be no louder than one hundred humans could make, but not intelligible speech or harmful sound. The deity’s ability to create scents is similar. Deities of rank 6 or higher can create the sounds of intelligible speech. A demigod or lesser deity can erect buildings and alter the landscape, but must do so through its own labor, through magic, or through its divine powers. A deity of rank 6 or higher not only has control over the environment, but also controls links to the Astral Plane. Manipulating a realm’s astral links renders teleportation and similar effects useless within the realm. The deity can designate certain locales within the realm where astral links remain intact. Likewise, the deity can block off the realm from planar portals or designate locations where portals are possible. A deity of rank 11 or higher can also apply the enhanced magic or impeded magic trait to up to four groups of spells (schools, domains, or spells with the same descriptor). The enhanced magic trait enables a metamagic feat to be applied to a group of spells without requiring higher-level spell slots. Many deities apply the enhanced magic trait to their domain spells, making them maximized (as the Maximize Spell feat) within the boundaries of their realm. The impeded magic trait doesn’t affect the deity’s spells and spell-like abilities.

In addition, a deity of rank 11 or higher can erect buildings as desired and alter terrain within ten miles to become any terrain type found on the Material Plane. These buildings and alterations are manifestations of the deity’s control over the realm.

A greater deity (rank 16 or higher) also can perform any one of the following acts:

Change or apply a gravity trait within the realm.
Change or apply an elemental or energy trait within the realm.
Change or apply a time trait within the realm.
Apply the limited magic trait to a particular school, domain, or spell descriptor within the area, preventing such spells and spell-like abilities from functioning. The greater deity’s own spells and spell-like abilities are not limited by these restrictions.

Anyway, from this external piece of evidence we can match it up to see where genesis fits on the scale.

{table=head]Divine Rank|Control over|Granted by Genesis
Demigod | choose the temperature | Yes
Demigod | can build buildings | Yes
Demigod | scents | No
Demigod | sounds (but not intelligent speech) | No
Lesser Deity | intelligent sounds | No
Lesser Deity | control links to the astral | No
Lesser Deity | block off planar portals | No
Intermediate Deity | can make buildings at will | No*
Intermediate Deity | can change terrain at will | No
Intermediate Deity | explicit control over some magic traits. | No.
Greater Deity | gravity traits | No
Greater Deity | elemental traits | No
Greater Deity | energy traits | No
Greater Deity | time traits | ???
Greater Deity | the remainder of the magic traits | No[/table]

*When we compare these things that intermediate deities can do to the spell, we find that one is explicitly banned, the other is missing in action, and the other is the first trait on the table.

The point of this additional evidence is that genesis explicitly matches up to the least powerful end of the chart only. Hence when we come to infer whether the caster can control time traits (the most powerful end of the chart), it is useful to see that they only match things at the other end. Genesis explicitly grants control over only the weakest things, should we then infer control over the strongest things, when we have to bypass at least one thing in the middle which is explicitly ruled out? Seems dodgy.

If you control planar traits (which aren't mentioned at all in the RAW btw) then you actually have to skip over a bunch of much easier stuff, none of which the spell lets you do.

Fifth point summarised: when we compare it to the powers of deities over their planes we find that interpreting that it allows control over traits does not make sense

Sixth: "factors such as" means factors that are similar. Planar traits are grossly more powerful than those four examples, and thus are not (in a normal English reading) viable candidates for the "such as", since there is no equivalency.

Seventh: environment. One of the key words under contention.

"A deity has at least modest control over the environment within its realm, controlling the temperature and minor elements of the environment."

"A deity of rank 6 or higher not only has control over the environment, but also controls links to the Astral Plane."

Hence control of the environment EXCLUDES planar traits!!!!
(Otherwise there would be no necessity to list them at the end of the table)
Holy smoking gun batman!
Control over the environment CAN'T mean control over planar traits, because otherwise demigods could do that!

Conclusion: Here's the proper reading of that text
"The character determines the environment in the demiplane ... The caster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the shape of the general terrain."

Obviously a Wizard capable of casting 9th level spells can visualize altered time traits... they've been casting Haste and Slow for ages, and Time Stop is another spell they've got.

So you're telling me they can see time? Citation Required.

Note that the Psionic version of Genesis does not allow for this.

If I remember correctly the psionic one explicitly rules this out but it otherwise pretty much the same wording. But that is not permission.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Likewise absence of denial is not presence of permission.

"It doesn't say I can't do that" means everything on these boards***, but it means nothing if you're reading the rules properly. The rules tell you what you can do. They don't tell you the things you can't do.

Can a first level human fighter grant wishes? It doesn't say he can't?

See how useless "it doesn't say he can't" is?

***Seriously, it should be the motto or something.

----

Let me give an example of how badly the English language is being murdered by this interpretation.

If I said "I will give you all the money back. I will pay you back the full amount of the debt, plus one percent interest per month."
And you then went away and said "Wow! He told me he was going to give me his entire net worth!"
And then I say "No, that's not what I said."
And then you say "But you said you would give me all your money!"

That's exactly what you're doing to the rules text of this spell.

----

I also like this defense for a Deity:
"Familiar
A deity of rank 1 or higher with levels as a sorcerer or a wizard has the ability to treat any creature of a given kind as a familiar, as long as that creature is within a distance of one mile per divine rank of the deity. This special familiar ability only applies to one creature at a time, but the deity can switch between one creature and another instantaneously, as long as the second creature is within range. This special familiar ability does not replace the deity’s ability to have a normal familiar, which could be any kind of eligible creature."

Even if the Deity allows you to open the portal, you are a creature, therefore they can make you their familiar, instantaneously. Good for the lols I guess.

Also, when you open the gate, if it lets you open the gate, it can Daze you as a free action. Double lolburgers. (You get a will save - looking at it the DC is kind of low, sadly 10+Divine Rank+Cha mod)

Psyren

2013-02-20, 11:24 AM

Alienist

2013-02-20, 11:26 AM

The only text I can find right now (late, very tired, etc.) is this:

"A deity of rank 6 or higher not only has control over the environment [of their divine realm], but also controls links to the Astral Plane. Manipulating a realm’s astral links renders teleportation and similar effects useless within the realm. The deity can designate certain locales within the realm where astral links remain intact. Likewise, the deity can block off the realm from planar portals or designate locations where portals are possible."

Basically, if a rank 6 lesser god doesn't want portals entering into their divine realm (which is 100 feet per rank radius on the Material Plane, so 600 feet, or 1 mile radius per rank on an Outer Plane, so 6 miles), then there won't be portals entering into their divine realm. Period.

Their remote sensing also penetrates any barrier except that of a higher-ranked deity (stated), with regards to shielding from divination.

There is also the text of the Gate Spell:

Planar Travel
As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire (a creation effect). Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire. Travelers need not join hands with you—anyone who chooses to step through the portal is transported. A gate cannot be opened to another point on the same plane; the spell works only for interplanar travel.

(emphasis added)

Relevant to the discussion, I don't see Genesis saying that the caster rules over the demiplane.

I'm not even sure (by strict RAW) how they return to the demiplane once they leave it.

(As far as I can see by RAW they are similar to extra-dimensional spaces (perhaps such as the insides of portable holes or bags of holding, except of course for the whole blowing up thing if one enters the other))

Perhaps when someone explains what "limited access" means (by citing actual rules) it will become more obvious how it is supposed to be interpreted.

Aharon

2013-02-20, 04:39 PM

I think the "limited access" is explained by the Effect line of the spell, which reads "A demiplane coterminous with the Ethereal Plane, centered on your location".

Being coterminous is defined as follows:

Coterminous Planes
Planes that touch at specific points are coterminous. Where they touch, a connection exists, and travelers can leave one reality behind and enter the other.

So it's probably meant to be similar to a portal.

Carth

2013-02-20, 05:03 PM

AFB, but limited access is defined in MotP, under the demiplane section. Basically, you can't plane shift to a demiplane, except when you're on a part of another plane that overlaps with the demiplane. Or something like that.

Regardless, the gate attack clearly doesn't work due.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-02-20, 08:58 PM

Spell Matrix/Spellsurge shennanigans to generate an infinite number of appropriately metamagic'd Orb of Fire (with Searing Spell to bypass fire immunity). I deal an arbitrary amount of damage to said deity until it falls over. The only problem would be ensuring you got the shot(s) off.

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-20, 09:00 PM

Alright, so it's not exactly RAW, but can we make an argument about the existence of finite beings with divine rank versus infinite epic wizards? Not clear that there is a definite assertion of the former in RAW, but, clearly, epic wizards have been around since way, way back in time. If it were possible to knock over gods with wizard optimization, it would happen all the time. The existence of gods that have been around since the arbitrarily distant past seems to contradict this.

I must also mention my knowledge of divine salient and such is abysmal. In my setting, gods exist with the explicit portfolio of maintaining a certain balance, and constant deicide (there are many, many NPCs of 30th level or higher, and the strongest mortals directly rival many gods in all power barring salient abilities) would make any kind of order tenuous at best. This god makes sure that arbitrarily easy deicide is not possible, and that when gods do die (very rare) that there is a good reason (like the god exceeding the limits of its portfolio, threatening the existence of the setting (the planet), and such).

A similar parallel should be drawn to RAW deities. While it doesn't follow that all deities are friends, it should certainly be in the interest of many that mortals aren't throwing their weight around on the Outer Planes. Thus, any RAW attack on a single deity must take into account that certain other deities might have foreseen this occurrence and applied countermeasures, spread this knowledge, etc.

Of course, if it's numbers vs numbers, then the wizard has a good chance, but it's a stupid exercise in this case. Gods are gods because of their place in the universe, integral parts of the lives of countless mortals, served by beings of epic power, legions of outsiders, and beings of vast experience and age. Every deity worth their salt has weathered 100 half-baked assaults for every one that had even a prayer of succeeding, and has applied nigh infinite countermeasures after each attempt.

Anything the wizard can think of doing, the deity has also thought a wizard might someday do, and planned against. That attack the wizard is planning? Here's a custom item or two that, when combo'd and activated as a free action counter the precise elements of the attack. Items not enough? You better not be assaulting the god within their domain, where the very land about them bends to their will. Contingent spell is a thing, and a god should have a nigh endless number. As an avatar is a manifestation of the deity's will, it can be customized as befits a specific threat, and multiple avatars can be present on the deity's homeplane, AFAIK.

Gods have limited access to the services of fellow gods. For the right payment, the crafting god of any pantheon is probably willing to create artifacts for other gods (what is the point of a crafting god if they don't craft the biggest, coolest toys and then put them in the hands of those that can show them off the best?) Every god should have resources well beyond those defined by its stat block alone, just like every wizard is more than just a collection of feats, skills, and items.

In short, if a wizard is ever able to kill a deity by RAW, then it is the exception, not the rule.

Psyren

2013-02-20, 09:07 PM

Both have happened in fantasy though. Wizards challenging gods and winning, gods smacking down upstarts etc. Though in most cases where the wizard wins, they achieve the prize and things don't turn out like they hope.

Scow2

2013-02-20, 09:59 PM

Powerful divinations (and therefore portfolio sense) can tell you when you're going to die, too. If you're ruling that mind blank blocks even portfolio sense (note that metafaculty penetrates even mind blank, and if portfolio sense is meant to be as powerful as the most powerful divinations, then it should penetrate mind blank too) it might not tell the deity who's going to kill it...but it would tell the deity time and manner of death, so it can simply pile on a bunch of contingencies to prevent that death. So, if you tried to kill Kelemvor, for instance, he'd know he's going to die 160 days ahead of the event; even if he doesn't know who's going to kill him, he contingencies himself up so he can't die in that manner, then as soon as his attempted murderer is revealed to him, he can use Life and Death and instantly kill the mortal with no save and no manner to avoid it.
Can they really? I don't see that as working out in anything but either an inevitable or Self-fullfilling prophesy. How can fortune/divination "Predict" something that won't happen?

Xenogears

2013-02-20, 10:06 PM

Can they really? I don't see that as working out in anything but either an inevitable or Self-fullfilling prophesy. How can fortune/divination "Predict" something that won't happen?

Well that's kind of the thing with predicting the future. Either it is useless (you predicted it so it has to happen so you can't prevent it) or it results in a loop (you prevented it because you predicted it but then how did you predict it?). Easiest solution is to just say that if you prevent it because of a prediction you still predicted it.

Scow2

2013-02-20, 10:09 PM

Well that's kind of the thing with predicting the future. Either it is useless (you predicted it so it has to happen so you can't prevent it) or it results in a loop (you prevented it because you predicted it but then how did you predict it?). Easiest solution is to just say that if you prevent it because of a prediction you still predicted it.

Most prophesies/predictions are of the "Unless X happens" - but that might not be the case for Portfolio sense, seeing how specifically it was worded. PCs always throw monkey-wrenches into the mechanisms of Fate.

Talakeal

2013-02-20, 10:18 PM

By RAI then yes, it is possible, just unlikely. Both Raistlin and that Netherse mage whose name escapes me at the moment did it.

By RAW, who the heck knows? Any debate about "RAW" is going to get bogged down in endless debates over the existence of Aleaxes, the inclusion of parts of deities / artifacts / infinite cp in spell component pouches, alternate time demi planes, Pun Pun, Chain Gating Solars, True Dragon Kobolds, self resetting magical traps, etc.

Pure RAW is incomprehensible self contradictory subjective madness, and can't be used in any but the most simple of discussions.

Xenogears

2013-02-20, 11:04 PM

Most prophesies/predictions are of the "Unless X happens" - but that might not be the case for Portfolio sense, seeing how specifically it was worded. PCs always throw monkey-wrenches into the mechanisms of Fate.

Yeah my reading of Portfolio Sense was that it functioned like a mundane sense but able to "see" across time as well. Either way IMO the only sane reading is that it has to be able to be preventable otherwise the world is a deterministic world where no prophecy or prediction can be prevented and all of our actions are already chosen...

By RAI then yes, it is possible, just unlikely. Both Raistlin and that Netherse mage whose name escapes me at the moment did it.

By RAW, who the heck knows? Any debate about "RAW" is going to get bogged down in endless debates over the existence of Aleaxes, the inclusion of parts of deities / artifacts / infinite cp in spell component pouches, alternate time demi planes, Pun Pun, Chain Gating Solars, True Dragon Kobolds, self resetting magical traps, etc.

Pure RAW is incomprehensible self contradictory subjective madness, and can't be used in any but the most simple of discussions.

Boccob senses all magic 19 weeks before it happens and can basically do anything so Pun-Pun could never exist since Boccob would know about it almost 5 months earlier and would have every reason to stop it.

Jack_Simth

2013-02-20, 11:16 PM

Yeah my reading of Portfolio Sense was that it functioned like a mundane sense but able to "see" across time as well. Either way IMO the only sane reading is that it has to be able to be preventable otherwise the world is a deterministic world where no prophecy or prediction can be prevented and all of our actions are already chosen...Which, while it can make good fiction, usually makes for a rather horrible game.

Pickford

2013-02-20, 11:40 PM

Can they really? I don't see that as working out in anything but either an inevitable or Self-fullfilling prophesy. How can fortune/divination "Predict" something that won't happen?

I think we're all getting ahead of ourselves...

What spell/ability is being used to predict the future with unerring accuracy?

PC spells only go moments into the future with such accuracy, and anything going days/week (augury/divination) is either exceptionally vague and only answers simple questions in terms of what is likely to occur (augury) or a riddle that technically provides no future knowledge (divination).

Edit: I would also point out that if anyone has perfect knowledge of future events there is no possible deviation, therefore no free will.

i.e. If a deity is able to determine perfectly that someone will kill it in the future...it is a dead meat deity.

Occasional Sage

2013-02-20, 11:43 PM

Pure RAW is incomprehensible self contradictory subjective madness, and can't be used in any but the most simple of discussions.

Although I block sig lines and use my own purely to give avatar credit, I am SORELY tempted to immortalize this.

Erik Vale

2013-02-21, 01:54 AM

Pure RAW is incomprehensible self contradictory subjective madness, and can't be used in any but the most simple of discussions.

Question, is Raw Cathulu or some other eldritch abomination. I am tempted to make a creature which when its name is abbreviated, becomes RAW.