[3.5] Drow Darkness + Faerie Fire

[SapereAude1490]

Help me settle this once and for all.

Do these two work together? I think they don't, but a player thinks they do.

Just to clarify, I'm talking about Drow spell-like abilities, not the spells.

I could houserule it to work together, but I don't want to make other PCs feel useless. The way I see it, one of the jobs of a DM is to make the game engaging, and having overpowered characters makes other players feel weak. They then try to compensate by shifting their focus to powergaming rather than role-playing. (the two aren't mutually exclusive, but in my experience, players often focus on optimizing at the expense of role-playing)

Might not seem like a big deal to you, but it is important to me and the campaign I'm running.

[Deaxsa]

Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally)

Darkness is a 2nd level spell.

edit: unless it's something else you are referring to? darkvision is still hampered by magical darkness. So i'm not really seeing what is abusable here.

[SapereAude1490]

Say you cast faerie fire on an orc. Then you cast darkness (60 ft. radius).

Can you see that orc? Can you just snipe him while he runs around in complete darkness?

Also, if you get in and engage in melee, can he see you? If I read the description right, you get 20% miss chance, and he gets nothing. Right?

[Deaxsa]

Say you cast faerie fire on an orc. Then you cast darkness (60 ft. radius).

Can you see that orc? Can you just snipe him while he runs around in complete darkness?

Also, if you get in and engage in melee, can he see you? If I read the description right, you get 20% miss chance, and he gets nothing. Right?

no, he also gets 20% miss chance, because faerie fire specifically does not work in magical darkness effects of 2nd level or higher, which darkness is.

also, even if you did allow that, i do not see how that is making other characters useless, seeing as it helps everybody.

[Psyren]

Say you cast faerie fire on an orc. Then you cast darkness (60 ft. radius).

Can you see that orc? Can you just snipe him while he runs around in complete darkness?

Also, if you get in and engage in melee, can he see you? If I read the description right, you get 20% miss chance, and he gets nothing. Right?

Darkness would completely negate the Faerie Fire as it is a lower level light effect. This combo does nothing but it hard for both parties to see.

[Flickerdart]

The feat Gift of the Spider Queen from Drow of the Underdark allows combining Drow SLAs in new and interesting ways. Combined with Magic in the Blood (for extra SLA uses) it's quite a nice toy.

[ericgrau]

Since darkness isn't complete darkness, it is only a 20% miss chance anyway and the orc can locate foes by sight. Even if a foe cannot see you at all he is not helpless. A DC 20 listen check can find the square of someone who attacked or cast a spell with a verbal component.

You could heighten faerie fire to level 3 and then cast darkness, but it seems like a lot of work for only 20%.

What works better with drow is to cast darkness on himself or an area, then hide ahead of time in the concealment it provides. He can't hide during the fight because you cannot normally hide while being observed. That means a foe that fails his spot check cannot find his square by sight, and even one that passes a listen check still has a 50% miss chance. The drow himself has only a 20% miss chance. But once he attacks or casts he is revealed unless he immediately moves to hide (on the same turn), and he takes a -20 penalty on this hide check. There isn't a penalty to the move silently for attacking, though.

If that fails he can't hide again as long as he is being observed, but he may break sight with total cover or total concealment and then hide in the darkness or other concealment or cover again. "Total" means he can't be seen without any need to roll checks. Any obstruction larger than he is.

Here's the breakdown (also here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm)):
Cover (physical): +4 AC, allows hiding, may locate by sight if target is not successfully hiding
Concealment (visual): 20% miss chance, allows hiding, may locate by sight if target is not successfully hiding
Total Cover: Cannot be attacked at all, no need to roll hide, may not locate by sight unless the physical barrier is transparent
Total Concealment: 50% miss chance, usually no need to roll hide, usually may not locate by sight.

[SapereAude1490]

Wait, so an orc can see in magical darkness but still has a 20% miss chance? Darkvision allows him to see through the dark (generated by the darkness spell) but has no effect on the magical concealment.

Then what happens if a human gets caught in darkness? He can't see and has a 20% miss chance, right? If he can't see his foe, is he flat footed?

Does it function as invisibility? (other than the fact that both the attacker and the victim have the 20% miss chance)

[Khedrac]

The first thing to remember is that in 3/3.5 D&D the "Darkness" spell does not create darkness.
Instead it creates an "area of shadowy illumination" (there's a RAW argument that it actually makes things brighter if there is no light source!)
This "shadowy illumination" grants concealment.
Darkvision does not see through magical darkness.
Low-Light vision does not help in magical darkness.
There are certain things that can see in magical darkness, but they are mainly fairly obscure, and based on the fact that devils can see in magical darkness.

Thus the human (no special vision) the orc (darkvision) and the elf (low light vision) have exactly the same problem in magical darkness.

So, on to the effects:
If you can see the target there is a 20% miss chance from the concealment.

If you cannot see the target the darkness' concealment miss chance goes away. At this point if you attack the square the target is in there is a 50% miss chance, if you attack the wrong square you miss.

So, in come the other senses:
Blindsense, e.g. dire bat sonar - this only tells you the square the target is in - so you are back up to 50% miss chance if you cannot see it or 20% if you can.
Blindsight, e.g. some dragons - this "pinpoints" the target - no miss chance.
Tremorsense, e.g. a lot of vermin - is the target touching the same ground you are standing on? (It won't cross gaps.) If yes then it pinpoints if no (e.g. flying, chasm in the way) then no effect.
Etc.

[Deaxsa]

Wait, so an orc can see in magical darkness but still has a 20% miss chance? Darkvision allows him to see through the dark (generated by the darkness spell) but has no effect on the magical concealment.

Then what happens if a human gets caught in darkness? He can't see and has a 20% miss chance, right? If he can't see his foe, is he flat footed?

Does it function as invisibility? (other than the fact that both the attacker and the victim have the 20% miss chance)

darvision does not allow sight through magical darkness. that said, darkness is more of an obscuring mist than real absence of light. i think you will solve a lot of your problems by reading Faerie Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/faerieFire.htm).

edit: also, read Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm).

[ericgrau]

The darkness spell basically creates shadowy illumination which darkvision will not penetrate. Some jokingly call the spell "dimness". Foes can still see you when you are in a darkness spell, just like they can see someone who is in a dark shadow. But since it counts as concealment you can use it to hide and then foes can no longer see you.

In general 20% concealment refers to something that is only partially obscured but can still be seen, whereas 50% means he is fully obscured and cannot be seen.

Likewise "cover" only means partially blocked for +4 AC, whereas if someone is fully blocked ("total cover") then you of course cannot hit him at all.

[SapereAude1490]

I think I get it now. I doubt they could have made this any more complicated. :smallamused:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think I get it now. I doubt they could have made this any more complicated. :smallamused:

Well, considering the spell Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm) explicitly states:


Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness.

And then under Special Abilities: Spell-Like Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) it explicitly states:


Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name.

I don't see how it is at all complicated.

[SapereAude1490]

I was referring to the fact that darkness doesn't actually makes darkness. (as ericgrau says "dimness")

That and me not knowing the rules about hiding in concealment. :smallbiggrin:

But I'm glad it's all clear now. You have my gratitude.

[Deaxsa]

I was referring to the fact that darkness doesn't actually makes darkness. (as ericgrau says "dimness")

That and me not knowing the rules about hiding in concealment. :smallbiggrin:

But I'm glad it's all clear now. You have my gratitude.

Yea, it's almost as if the WoTC are horrible at writing rules or something.