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Morph Bark
2013-02-20, 11:46 AM
In DnD, you generally play adolescent characters, people aged 16-34 (or their alternatively-raced equivalent ages). Children are practically unheard of, middle aged sometimes pops up, old age and beyond is pretty rare. The ability score penalties are a logical reason behind this, as many players feel like it's an unnecessary nerf to their character that adds little to their roleplay.

So, I'd like to formulate some rules for playing children and for characters of middle, old or venerable age.


Children
For children, the baseline is easy, as I can take a page from d20 Modern and give the PC -3 Str, -1 Dex, -3 Con, -1 Int, -1 Wis and -1 Cha. What else is there though, and are there any benefits, however small? Going on that last word, children are smaller than adults, but not enough to be a full size category less. How about giving them Slight Build? It's a small enough boost. I don't think there are any skills that children are objectively better than adults at in general, so they don't get a bonus on anything, but they also don't get a penalty, as most things we can do as adults is primarily the result of training and studying. What about movement speed? Children are slower than adults, largely owing that to their shorter legs. Bringing down their movement speed would be a pretty big change though, and too much of a nerf to their playability, unless you just outright made them a size category smaller.

Middle Age
The -1 to physical ability scores, +1 to mental ability scores, seems okay all in all. Probably doesn't really need more or less. We'll see.

Old Age
The -2 to physical ability scores really starts to count here. Other than SAD casters, I doubt there is anyone who would start play at old age from a mechanical perspective. So how about this: we make it -1/+1 instead of -2/+1, for a total of -2/+2. Sounds too good, right? Well, it is, so let's tack on some other things. One thing that seems relatively common that I've seen is comments about how older people shouldn't have better Listen/Spot/Perception modifiers, even though their Wisdom increases. Let's give people of older age a -1 penalty for each age category beyond adolescence. This would give Middle Age a -1, Old Age a -2 and Venerable Age a -3, offsetting the Wisdom bonus and then just a bit more. That's a little better, but perhaps there should be another downside to it, like a 5 ft decrease in movement speed. That might bring it down a tad too much again though, maybe? I was thinking of perhaps rounding it off with a final +1/age category to Sense Motive/Insight.

Venerable Age
Just building on the previous, so it would be a total of -3 physical/+3 mental, -3 Listen/Spot/Perception, +3 Sense Motive/Insight, -10 ft movement speed.


What do you think?

tardisvalkyrie
2013-02-20, 12:21 PM
I would contest the children penaltys to intelience and charisma, they can be just as smart and commanding as adults, ant they should have a bonus to dexterity, kids are fast and agile, you ever seen a kid on the monkey bars, case closed


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Omnicrat
2013-02-20, 12:42 PM
I would contest the children penaltys to intelience and charisma, they can be just as smart and commanding as adults, ant they should have a bonus to dexterity, kids are fast and agile, you ever seen a kid on the monkey bars, case closed.

I would take it a step further. Intelligence isn't supposed to reflect what you know, but what you can learn. And, as we know, children have an exponentially higher capacity for learning than adults. This being so, a child character, who is gaining so much life experience at a young age, would rationally have a bonus to intelligence.

Arguably, they should also have some type of charisma bonus, as most people let kids get away with more than adults.

Eloel
2013-02-20, 01:36 PM
I would take it a step further. Intelligence isn't supposed to reflect what you know, but what you can learn. And, as we know, children have an exponentially higher capacity for learning than adults. This being so, a child character, who is gaining so much life experience at a young age, would rationally have a bonus to intelligence.

Arguably, they should also have some type of charisma bonus, as most people let kids get away with more than adults.

A charisma bonus translates into a bonus in Intimidate too.
I'm not really sure about that one.

Morph Bark
2013-02-20, 01:49 PM
Arguably, they should also have some type of charisma bonus, as most people let kids get away with more than adults.

That'd be a circumstance bonus having to do with the fact that they're your kids, or you don't want to have to deal with their parents getting on your ass over whatever you didn't let them get away with.

The point about Intelligence is a valid one. The point about the climbing less so, at least to DnD mechanics, as climbing is Str-based.

Perhaps just a -3 or -2 penalty to Str and Con?

Pesimismrocks
2013-02-20, 02:17 PM
A charisma bonus translates into a bonus in Intimidate too.
I'm not really sure about that one.
Half-Orcs have -2 to charisma. This also translates to intimidate too. Generally homebrew charisma to choose between charisma, constitution and strength. Otherwise fighters are often less scary than dancing men in pretty clothes carrying lutes.

Amechra
2013-02-20, 05:25 PM
Half-Orcs have -2 to charisma. This also translates to intimidate too. Generally homebrew charisma to choose between charisma, constitution and strength. Otherwise fighters are often less scary than dancing men in pretty clothes carrying lutes.

Or, in the case of one of my characters, Jane Austen.

She's scarier than your Fighter, you know.

Frathe
2013-02-20, 06:06 PM
I gotta say, the thread title confused me because adolescent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolescence) means in the period between puberty and adulthood (mostly teenagers). You seem to be using it to mean adulthood.

Morph Bark
2013-02-20, 06:49 PM
If I had used "adult", it would have been referring to anything beyond the age of 15 (or racial equivalent). "Adolescent" was the closest approximation, especially since in the present it is used varyingly to describe people even up to the age of 25, or rarely even 29. Either way, that's not important here.


Half-Orcs have -2 to charisma. This also translates to intimidate too. Generally homebrew charisma to choose between charisma, constitution and strength. Otherwise fighters are often less scary than dancing men in pretty clothes carrying lutes.

Con-based Intimidate? Really? :smallconfused:

As for the "children learn stuff faster", that's reflected by the 4x skill points at level 1. A level 1 character reflects a person fresh out of high school, prettymuch.

Are there any other penalties or bonuses that older people should be getting?

Frathe
2013-02-20, 07:28 PM
If I had used "adult", it would have been referring to anything beyond the age of 15 (or racial equivalent). "Adolescent" was the closest approximation, especially since in the present it is used varyingly to describe people even up to the age of 25, or rarely even 29. Either way, that's not important here.It's not important if people don't come to the thread or are confused about what it's about? :smallconfused:

Grundy
2013-02-21, 12:53 AM
Older people should probably have higher starting wealth. Its not universal, of course, and I suppose you could argue that the young kids get cash/goods from the folks back home, but its logical, and relatively minor.

Older characters should also have greater social interconnectivity. I don't know how to put that in game terms, though. But it's true. The older you are, the more people you know (and know you)- and the more importance you place on other people. That comes with responsibilities that don't fit with adventuring, of course, which is one reason you see fewer old "new" adventurers.

Morph Bark
2013-02-21, 06:17 AM
It's not important if people don't come to the thread or are confused about what it's about? :smallconfused:

I never said anything about people not coming to the thread not being important. :smallconfused: Either way, if you know a word that describes people aged 16-34, no older, no younger, I'd be happy to use that instead. "Adult" doesn't work since it also applies to older people, "adolescent" applies to only about half the people in that range and is a very vague term by itself, but because it was the closest thing that I knew, I used it when making the thread.


Older people should probably have higher starting wealth. Its not universal, of course, and I suppose you could argue that the young kids get cash/goods from the folks back home, but its logical, and relatively minor.

Older characters should also have greater social interconnectivity. I don't know how to put that in game terms, though. But it's true. The older you are, the more people you know (and know you)- and the more importance you place on other people. That comes with responsibilities that don't fit with adventuring, of course, which is one reason you see fewer old "new" adventurers.

Good points. Perhaps when using the UA/SRD stuff about Reputation and Contacts, older people should have an increase to both? That probably reflects those things the best. A small increase in starting wealth sounds good, though only at level 1 of course. Something like 1 gp/year beyond the first year of middle age (less for longer-lived races, more for short-lived ones), or just a flat increase per age category? The latter would probably be fairest.

Grundy
2013-02-21, 08:15 AM
I'd use categories. Easier and accurate enough.

You could say "young adult" rather than adolescent. Everybody in their 30's would be flattered to be called young, and those in their 20's would like to be called adults.

NineThePuma
2013-02-21, 02:08 PM
I would like to second the confusion regarding use of the term adolescent

I suggest "non-standard character ages" as an alternative.

Ashtagon
2013-02-21, 05:32 PM
I would take it a step further. Intelligence isn't supposed to reflect what you know, but what you can learn. And, as we know, children have an exponentially higher capacity for learning than adults. This being so, a child character, who is gaining so much life experience at a young age, would rationally have a bonus to intelligence.

Arguably, they should also have some type of charisma bonus, as most people let kids get away with more than adults.

You never worked in a school I take it.

Omnicrat
2013-02-21, 06:44 PM
You never worked in a school I take it.

To what do you refer?

Ashtagon
2013-02-22, 02:11 AM
To what do you refer?

To the fact that kids can be surprisingly clumsy (albeit fast; they do deserve initiative bonuses, but not general Dex bonuses). They are also unbelievably stupid at times, its just that we don't see this because we have some well-developed social biases against adults competing directly against children. Charisma? Pssh. Kids are pathetic at, for example, deception.

If you want to play heroic kids, stat out the character as human or halfling and RP the heck out of it. Realistic kids most of the time are barely worth stating out at all in a game.

Debihuman
2013-02-22, 10:35 AM
I particularly like the Young Template from Pathfinder that could just be imported whole here.
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1

+2 to Dex, -2 to all other rolls, -2 hp/HD.

Debby

Rakoa
2013-02-22, 11:25 AM
Excellent idea. I had never though of playing a child before, honestly, and that surprises me. Allow me to add my two copper.


To the fact that kids can be surprisingly clumsy (albeit fast; they do deserve initiative bonuses, but not general Dex bonuses). They are also unbelievably stupid at times, its just that we don't see this because we have some well-developed social biases against adults competing directly against children. Charisma? Pssh. Kids are pathetic at, for example, deception.

If you want to play heroic kids, play as human or halfling and RP the heck out of it. Realistic kids most of the time are barely worth stating out at all in a game.

I would argue that kids do indeed act stupid at times. However, this isn't a reflection of low intelligence but low wisdom. I would still argue that a higher intelligence than average would be in order to represent their potential to learn.

And while roleplaying a halfling is a potential solution, it isn't really the point of the thread.

FreakyCheeseMan
2013-02-22, 12:20 PM
Adult's are pre-disposed not to take kids seriously - I certainly wouldn't give them a CHA bonus.

Ashtagon
2013-02-22, 12:25 PM
http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=8366

I've yet to see anything better than this as a model for children.

Grundy
2013-02-22, 01:26 PM
To the fact that kids can be surprisingly clumsy (albeit fast; they do deserve initiative bonuses, but not general Dex bonuses). They are also unbelievably stupid at times, its just that we don't see this because we have some well-developed social biases against adults competing directly against children. Charisma? Pssh. Kids are pathetic at, for example, deception.

If you want to play heroic kids, play as human or halfling and RP the heck out of it. Realistic kids most of the time are barely worth stating out at all in a game.

I agree with this 100%. The init bonuses should offset the Dex penalties. I've spent a lot of time with kids, especially since having my own, and there's nothing they do near as well as an adult, except being cute enough that you don't give up on them (and that doesn't translate to high Cha or skills). Adults let kids get away with all kinds of behavior that would be totally unacceptable from an adult, but that's basically because they know the kids are doing the best they can, and it would be totally unfair to hold them to adult standards of behavior or performance.

Zireael
2013-02-28, 04:00 AM
http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=8366

I've yet to see anything better than this as a model for children.

I agree, this is excellent for humans, but what about all the other races?

Ashtagon
2013-03-01, 12:52 AM
I agree, this is excellent for humans, but what about all the other races?

Adjust the age numbers proportionately to the starting "adult" age of the race (or the age at which they become physically adult, if you subscribe to the "elves are forever tweenagers" theory), and it should work fine. The actual modifiers don't need changing from race to race.

Zireael
2013-03-02, 04:56 AM
Adjust the age numbers proportionately to the starting "adult" age of the race (or the age at which they become physically adult, if you subscribe to the "elves are forever tweenagers" theory), and it should work fine. The actual modifiers don't need changing from race to race.

Oh, right. Good idea, thanks.