Pathfinder making a Rogue (or Rogue-like)

[Suddo]

So next time I play a pathfinder campaign I'm thinking about playing the rogue. But I have heard, and kind of understand, that the rogue is a pretty weak class. So basically I have to choose to optimize my out of combat capabilities, trap stuff, while maintaining some relevancy in combat.
Here is my current build:

Scavenger Acute Darkvision Half Orc Trapsmith Rogue 10/ Sleepless Detective (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/sleepless-detective) 10
Feats (in order): Skill Focus (DisableDevice), Keen Scent, Skill Focus (Perception), Weapon Finesse, Alertness, Combat Expertise, Butterfly Strike, fill
Tricks (in order): Trap Spotter, Canny Observer, Minor Magic Trick (Open or Close), Major Magic Trick (Vanish), Dispelling Attack

I assume some some what favorable stats since we are rolling and if I roll bad I just drop a Keen Scent or something and move on.
I like Darkvision on the rogue. I also like Scent (I just like having more information).
I like the abilities Sleepless Detective gives and I don't care for most Advance Tricks (which I can burn feats on if need be) which is why I go into it. I stay in Rogue until 10 for Dispelling Attack, it just seems good I maybe wrong on this though.
I go into Butterfly Strike later because its probably the best way for me to stay useful in combat (I'm assuming we have a two-handed fighter or barbarian who would be willing to wield a scythe). I can go deeper into that build after that point but I don't want to plan too far into the future.
I'm thinking of dropping Skill Focus (Perception) because I already have to take alertness. This would allow my build to progress a little faster without taking to much damage.

Oh and I'll probably take a +1 Perception Trait and a +1 Disable Device trait (if my GM allows it).



The question I have is two fold:
1) Any suggestions for this build?
2) Is there a build that can do what I want better or do more things as well? Currently this build is pretty much just a Trap person and maybe a sneak attacker and that is the goal.

Thanks for any suggestions.

[Gnaeus]

I would also examine Crypt Breaker Alchemist.

Cons: No sneak attack, no evasion
Pros: Still get trapfinding. "mutagen" gives +4 bonus on all Perception checks and gains one of the following special senses: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, or scent (Freeing up feats for other uses). Extracts are generally awesome. Poison immunity and poison use. Bombs made of acid.

For another option which is also probably better than rogue, examine Archaeologist Bard. You still get pretty much all the iconic rogue skills, but replace sneak attack with casting.

[Suddo]

I would also examine Crypt Breaker Alchemist.

Cons: No sneak attack, no evasion
Pros: Still get trapfinding. "mutagen" gives +4 bonus on all Perception checks and gains one of the following special senses: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, or scent (Freeing up feats for other uses). Extracts are generally awesome. Poison immunity and poison use. Bombs made of acid.
This is interesting. I just hate that you have to burn an hour every time you want to sniff anything (I know it lasts a long time but I tend to like sniffing all the things). And I still like the Trapsmith Rogue stuff. I mean even if I flub a roll with the above build, after level four, I'm usually still good, at level 4 it's +18 (3dex + 7skill + 2tools + 2finding + 3focus +1trait) which means the DC would have to be a 29 for me to be able to spring it while disabling.


For another option which is also probably better than rogue, examine Archaeologist Bard. You still get pretty much all the iconic rogue skills, but replace sneak attack with casting.

I looked into this at one point but I feel like you sacrifice even more combat capabilities to be about the same as the rogue in skill sets. I do like spell casting, hell even Prestidigitation at will is awesome, but beyond basic quality of life things I don't see the spells giving to much bang.

[Gnaeus]

This is interesting. I just hate that you have to burn an hour every time you want to sniff anything (I know it lasts a long time but I tend to like sniffing all the things). And I still like the Trapsmith Rogue stuff. I mean even if I flub a roll with the above build, after level four, I'm usually still good, at level 4 it's +18 (3dex + 7skill + 2tools + 2spotting + 3focus +1trait) which means the DC would have to be a 29 for me to be able to spring it while disabling.

As you say, it lasts 10 minutes per level. Your typical adventuring day when you are really going to be investigating is usually short enough that one dose will do you.

At level 4, the Cryptbreaker (assuming the same feat and trait) should have the exact same modifiers. (+3 dex, +7 skill, +2 tools, +2 trapfinding, +3 focus, +1 trait), and can even take the relevant rogue talents as discoveries. But the Cryptbreaker can actually do it better, because if he is concerned about the outcome he can drink a extract of cats grace beforehand. As far as perception stuff, he is way, way better, with extracts like See Invisibility, Acute Senses, and Perceive Cues.




I looked into this at one point but I feel like you sacrifice even more combat capabilities to be about the same as the rogue in skill sets. I do like spell casting, hell even Prestidigitation at will is awesome, but beyond basic quality of life things I don't see the spells giving to much bang.

You don't kill the enemy yourself as a bard, but you totally win fights. At level 1 your spell list includes Daze (very good spell that you can cast all day), Ear Piercing Scream (Damage and a fort save or target is dazed) and either Sleep or Cause Fear (will save or target is out of combat).

Level 3 you take Craft Wondrous items. This lets you craft items to give yourself combat bonuses, while at the same time crafting stuff to boost your trapfinding beyond what a rogue can get.

Level 4 is Heroism. With its 10 minute per level duration, you can probably have it going on yourself and the party fighter for most of the adventuring day. +10% chance for your BSF to hit by itself is probably going to average out more damage than your 2d6 sneak attack, it will also help your chances to hit, and both your saves, and (added bonus) it will boost your perception and disable device above where a rogue can get it. For your second spell, you can take a save or lose like blindness or hold person, or something that makes you a better scout than the rogue, like invisibility, locate object or create treasure map. Heck, Gallant Inspiration. If you fail a disarm trap, spend an immediate action to add 2-8 to your roll. It isn't like you will be failing often with those numbers.

In 3.5/PF, spells are generally just better than not spells. If you don't want to be a caster because that just isn't the kind of character you want, thats cool. But for both utility and combat effectiveness both the Bard and the Alchemist will ultimately blow past the rogue (especially a rogue like yours who is more optimized to skill use than to sneak attack. A really militant rogue with lots of attacks and combat related talents can be a good combatant).

[Suddo]

As you say, it lasts 10 minutes per level. Your typical adventuring day when you are really going to be investigating is usually short enough that one dose will do you.

At level 4, the Cryptbreaker (assuming the same feat and trait) should have the exact same modifiers. (+3 dex, +7 skill, +2 tools, +2 trapfinding, +3 focus, +1 trait), and can even take the relevant rogue talents as discoveries. But the Cryptbreaker can actually do it better, because if he is concerned about the outcome he can drink a extract of cats grace beforehand. As far as perception stuff, he is way, way better, with extracts like See Invisibility, Acute Senses, and Perceive Cues.

The specific thing I was referring to was the Trapsmith ACF which allows you not to spring a trap unless you are 10 below the DC instead of 5. Though yes the lack of spells is a problem for the rogue.

Edit: The more I look at it the more I think you maybe right. Plus I haven't looked too deep into the bombs much (pretty interesting stuff).


You don't kill the enemy yourself as a bard, but you totally win fights. At level 1 your spell list includes Daze (very good spell that you can cast all day), Ear Piercing Scream (Damage and a fort save or target is dazed) and either Sleep or Cause Fear (will save or target is out of combat)...

Okay this is something I really like. I'm just used to being that awesome song singing bard, forgetting the spells they have can often be amazing. I also love crafting so having an ability to do that is a boon. One annoying thing is that I do get less skill points and will be even more mad, I mean I'm a bard still I'd like to be the face but I can't do that if I'm burning points in DD and stealth. If I didn't value darkvision so highly a human bard would probably be really fun (you could get the skilled ARF too to get more skill focuses).