Improved Uncanny Dodge vs. Diamond Mind

[Deaxsa]

Just curious if there was an official ruling on whether certain Diamond Mind maneuvers (such as Sapphire Ruby Blade) made characters with improved uncanny dodge flat-footed, or no(given the attacker and defender are of the same level).

EDIT: i screwed up, i meant normal uncanny dodge

[Greenish]

If you succeed in the concentration check, the target is flat-footed, no ifs or buts.

Of course, enemies with Uncanny Dodge (not the improved version, that has nothing to do with flat-footing) would still retain their Dex to AC.

[Douglas]

Sapphire Nightmare Blade would make someone with Uncanny Dodge flatfooted, just like anyone else. It just wouldn't matter as much as normal because he'd still have dex to AC. The only effect I can think of that would still be relevant is that he would be unable to use counters, or any other immediate actions, against your attack.

[ArcturusV]

Well, it'd matter for things like Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike I imagine. Since the wording on those abilities typically has some "if the target is flatfooted" line as well. Same with Iajutsu Focus... least I think. Don't have access to check right now. Even if they would still have Dex to AC, the fact they are Flat-Footed would still key off those abilities.

[Eloel]

Well, it'd matter for things like Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike I imagine. Since the wording on those abilities typically has some "if the target is flatfooted" line as well. Same with Iajutsu Focus... least I think. Don't have access to check right now. Even if they would still have Dex to AC, the fact they are Flat-Footed would still key off those abilities.

Sneak Attack, at least as far as I can see, requires
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target., which means Uncanny Dodge blocks it (unless you also flank). I don't have my books handy so can't comment on others.

[Shining Wrath]

A lot of the maneuvers will call out that they don't work on targets immune to critical hits. If no exception is mentioned in the maneuver text, then there is no exception.

If there were a class feature that made you immune to being flat-footed that would possibly counter Diamond Mind (and some Shadow Hand as well). It'd be a DM ruling. Improved Uncanny Dodge, though, does not make the possessor immune to ever being flat-footed.

[ArcturusV]

Okay, found my book wasn't packed away as I thought. I know at least Iajutsu focus just says "If you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon..."

So that would check off. Even though they'd still have Dex to AC, they'd still be Flat-Footed.

[Deaxsa]

If you succeed in the concentration check, the target is flat-footed, no ifs or buts.

Of course, enemies with Uncanny Dodge (not the improved version, that has nothing to do with flat-footing) would still retain their Dex to AC.

:smallannoyed:

kiiiiinda contradicting yourself there... if it's just up to dm discretion, that's fine. but is there an official ruling or a clause somewhere which makes one side or another evidently the stronger one? Things make sense now.


Okay, found my book wasn't packed away as I thought. I know at least Iajutsu focus just says "If you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon..."

So that would check off. Even though they'd still have Dex to AC, they'd still be Flat-Footed.

ok, so this makes a bunch of sense to me. i think i'll go with this. given that
a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. says exactly that, and says nothing about being immune to being flat-footed. so they are flat footed, and allow special things because of that(like sneak attack), but retain dex to AC while flat footed. however, they do lose dodge bonuses.

[Greenish]

kiiiiinda contradicting yourself there...Read Uncanny Dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#uncannyDodge).

[Deaxsa]

Read Uncanny Dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#uncannyDodge).

edited my post, thanks. i was assuming that retaining dex to ac meant not being able to be caught flat-footed.

[Douglas]

so they are flat footed, and allow special things because of that(like sneak attack), but retain dex to AC while flat footed. however, they do lose dodge bonuses.
Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, and most similar things actually key off of dex bonus being denied, not flat-footedness. A flat-footed barbarian does not automatically qualify for Sneak Attack.

Same with dodge bonuses. A dodge bonus is lost when dex bonus is lost; preventing the loss of dex bonus also prevents the loss of dodge bonus.

Being flat-footed has the following effects:
Lose dex bonus to AC
Cannot take attacks of opportunity
Cannot take immediate actions
Qualify for things that specifically require flat-footedness

Uncanny Dodge removes the dex bonus part of that list, along with anything that depends on it - which includes Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike vulnerability, loss of dodge bonuses, and maybe a few other things.