[PF] Can prestidigitation be used to carry items over a distance?

[Ellrin]

Normally you'd use mage hand, sure, but I'm wondering if it's possible to use prestidigitation to carry light items around (not just lift them) while you're busy doing other stuff, since mage hand requires concentration, and you can only move things using it by spending a move action.

[Ravenica]

Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.

spell description answers your question

[Ellrin]

spell description answers your question

Not... not really. As I already said, mage hand works differently than how I'm asking if prestidigitation can work, and "slowly lift" doesn't rule out "move horizontally." I'm not asking if I can make a better version of mage hand or unseen servant, just whether it can, for instance, grab a fork from a table and bring it towards me (however slowly) while I'm moving double my speed, or bring me some nails while I'm concentrating on hammering a bookshelf together without hammering my fingers. Obviously a DM would have to judge what the rate of motion would be if it were possible, but I'm just wondering if there's any RAW basis for saying it isn't.

[Ravenica]

raw basis would be that it is duplicating a different spell's effect therefore it can't

YMMV depending on the DM but RAW supports "no"

[Psyren]

just whether it can, for instance, grab a fork from a table and bring it towards me (however slowly) while I'm moving double my speed

Even if it could do that (which, as Ravenica said, is treading on Mage Hand's territory) it sounds like you'd very quickly go outside the spell's range while it was lifting whatever item if you were going that fast.

[Ellrin]

If carrying one pound of material is your definition of duplicating another spell's effect (I'm guessing mage hand?), then where's the line drawn? I mean, a number of explicit uses for prestidigitation can also be performed by mage hand or unseen servant. The heat and chill spells also have similar, if more powerful, effects to other explicit uses. I'm not sure there are any explicit (or obvious non-explicit) uses for prestidigitation that other spells can't directly perform.

Once again, I'm not asking "can I cast mage hand with prestidigitation?" Mage hand has specific powers that go beyond what I'm asking if prestidigitation is capable of; which, by my reading, would mean it was not duplicating another spell's effect--unless there's another spell I'm missing that is specifically capable of doing what I'm asking and no more.

[Ellrin]

Even if it could do that (which, as Ravenica said, is treading on Mage Hand's territory) it sounds like you'd very quickly go outside the spell's range while it was lifting whatever item if you were going that fast.

Well, yes. If I were a DM who had allowed such a use of the spell, I would never allow it to move an object more than 5 ft/round at most--in that scenario it would be more if the character were moving toward the fork/whatever and wanted to use the spell to get it faster than hustling would allow him to; or if he were moving, but staying at a relatively uniform distance from the item. It would be severely situational, obviously. I just wanted to know if it were possible.

[Psyren]

If carrying one pound of material is your definition of duplicating another spell's effect (I'm guessing mage hand?), then where's the line drawn?

If you want to get technical, Prestidigitation says it "slowly lifts" material - it says nothing about carrying that material over to you (unless you're directly above it, anyhow.)

[Ellrin]

Yeah, I'm not saying that it definitely does give this ability--I know it doesn't say anything about enabling you to move things horizontally.

Essentially, I guess what I'm getting at is this: is the list of explicit uses in the spell description merely examples (and limitations) of things prestidigitation could perform, or the sum total of the spell's abilities? The way I'm reading the first three sentences ("Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations."), it sounds more like the former to me; I can see a case being made for the latter, as well, but I'm wondering if there's anything in RAW that says it must be the latter.

[Laserlight]

is the list of explicit uses in the spell description merely examples (and limitations) of things prestidigitation could perform, or the sum total of the spell's abilities?

Given that the Forum usually refers to Presti as "Minor Wish", I'd say the list of uses is not exhaustive. Use it for whatever you can dream up, that your DM will give a nod to.

[Psyren]

Essentially, I guess what I'm getting at is this: is the list of explicit uses in the spell description merely examples (and limitations) of things prestidigitation could perform, or the sum total of the spell's abilities?

It is indeed capable of more. Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010707) are some expanded uses for it.

[Ellrin]

Considering the gather function listed there, it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that you could slowly move a pound (maybe less) around. But yeah, DM fiat.


You transform one object of Fine size or smaller into another object of roughly the same size. The object can weigh no more than 8 ounces.

The change must be within the same kingdom (animal, vegetable, or mineral). For example, you could change a piece of paper into scrap of linen, and then change that into a rose. Likewise, you could change a coin into a ring. You could not, however, turn a strip of leather into a piece of paper.

Oh, dear. Time to abuse infinite cantrips to start changing all my copper coins into platinum and get the table thrown at me.

Screw WBL, I have prestidigitation!

[Baroncognito]

Oh, dear. Time to abuse infinite cantrips to start changing all my copper coins into platinum and get the table thrown at me.

Screw WBL, I have prestidigitation!

You'd only have an hour to spend that coin, and I'm pretty sure it would radiate magic while changed.


Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial.

Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.

So, you could change the coin to platinum, but the vendor would look at it and say "Hmmm... this platinum coin is marked like a copper coin." You could use prestidigitation to change the markings, but they'd be crude. It might fool a vendor who wasn't paying very much attention, but I imagine that a vendor accepting platinum coins is going to be paying attention.

[ericgrau]

Basically the spell can perform any trick that's minor enough, and what's listed in the description are only examples.

Exactly what you can do relies pretty heavily on the DM, but I would say that slowly levitating a fork within 10 feet and bringing it to your hand is perfectly reasonable. It does not break the rule against cantrip imitation because this is much weaker than mage hand. As for the original question, I think it's safer to assume that almost anything a prestidigitation can do is a standard action. Making it a lesser action is getting too close to being as powerful as a cantrip. Constructing a pouch for an object might be reasonable though. EDIT @ V: I agree the fork should move slow not fast.

Further examples given by various gaming articles are merely suggestions to help explain what you might do to help you get more creative. They shouldn't be abused without limitation, especially since they aren't RAW. Anything that fits within one of those suggestions but is beyond what the spell is capable of is right out. For example any forgeries would be too crude to pass any kind of close up scrutiny.

[Psyren]

To clarify, I actually have nothing against moving a fork - but going double-speed while doing so and having the fork follow you the whole way is a bit much.

(Little-known fact - Psions get Prestidigitation too!)

[SilverLeaf167]

(Little-known fact - Psions get Prestidigitation too!)
Oh, really? How exactly?

[Jane_Smith]

Usually I would allow my player's to do that, and make mage hand and greater mage hand more useful by allowing them to ready actions and grab unattended objects with it - such as a thrown dagger, a flask of alchemist's fire before it hits the ground, etc, and then "throw it back" the next round or safety catch it as a standard action as if you threw it, etc. I had an arcane trickster use it in a similar fashion, and he had a very fun tactic when breaking into places: He would use prestidigitation to turn the locks from iron or steel or whatever into aluminum, and simply cut them in half with his blade (in which he got his orcish name, "Steelbane"). In an hour, they would return to being iron or steel, but by then the damage would have been done and people thought he was some kinda monster capable of ripping heavy metals in half.

[Edenbeast]

I think lifting up a very small item, like a spoon if it's not more than 1 pound, and then moving it around slowly, could be done with prestidigitation. It does require that you concentrate.

[Barstro]

FWIT, I agree with Psyren. Part of the fun of prestidigitation is moving objects to you. I would consider moving that object at half walking pace (15 feet per round?) a reasonable speed.

I'm not sure I would allow the object to follow you if you were going double speed. I think that would involve a concentration check. OR, as a free action I would allow you to "tell" the object to move to a certain location and you can hope that you are still there when the object finally arrives.

Prestidigitation is much more of a Constitution than a Law. It kind of gives a basic framework, but a lot more needs to be read into it and interpreted. Guess that's why we have DMs.

To address Ravenica

Finally, prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects.
Much like Ellrin said, this really should have been written "duplication any other spell's maximum effect". One can use Presti to lift a paperclip. Just because one can also use Mage Hand to do it, does not mean that Presti suddenly fails.

But this would lead into other problems, of course. "I could have used magic missile to hit four times, but I'm just using Presti to hit three times. It's fair, I tell you".

While Presti. does not require a concentration check, some of the effects probably should. "Moving an Object while distracted" is one of those. "Flavor one pound of nonliving material" on a specific item of food on a moving carousel that also contains several other items of food that you do not want to flavor; could be another.

[Barstro]

Ravenica;

If you are still reading this thread, what do you rule that CAN Presti do?

A player can use WISH to do anything. If Presti cannot do anything that another spell can do, and Wish does anything at all, then by RAW, Presti has no effect.

[Psyren]

Oh, really? How exactly?

Secrets of Sarlona gave it to them, along with a bunch of other cantrips and low-level spells.

The Psionic version of prestidigitation is a 1st-level power, but it also incorporates the effects of Mending.

[Ravenica]

Ravenica;

If you are still reading this thread, what do you rule that CAN Presti do?

A player can use WISH to do anything. If Presti cannot do anything that another spell can do, and Wish does anything at all, then by RAW, Presti has no effect.

I rule that it can do plenty, but that wasn't the question I was answering earlier.


Not... not really. As I already said, mage hand works differently than how I'm asking if prestidigitation can work, and "slowly lift" doesn't rule out "move horizontally." I'm not asking if I can make a better version of mage hand or unseen servant, just whether it can, for instance, grab a fork from a table and bring it towards me (however slowly) while I'm moving double my speed, or bring me some nails while I'm concentrating on hammering a bookshelf together without hammering my fingers. Obviously a DM would have to judge what the rate of motion would be if it were possible, but I'm just wondering if there's any RAW basis for saying it isn't. The bold section is specifically what I was adverse to, making prestidigitation better than the spells designed specifically to move things is clearly beyond it's power however. Furthermore, the pathfinder version is does not explicitly give you any further control over the effect after initial casting nor does it imply you get any. You make a one time choice for effect and it continues for up to an hour. If a character in one of my campaigns wishes to move an object beyond just floating it, that's fine but they aren't going to get it as even a move action as it requires more than one "trick".

A general list of the shenanigans my players use it for is typical street magician smoke a mirror effects and the like;
-Minor flashes of light or sparkle/flare type effects in colours of the casters choice.
-Puff's of smoke
-making objects wet
-repelling mundane insects (read as non-threatening, not encounter, don't technically exist flys/mosquitoes/ants)
-fixing their hair (this one gets used by quite a few XD)
-applying makeup like effects to their faces (again far too common... had to eventually rule that it didn't affect their disguise bonus)


Overall the most common use for it at my table tends to be simply using it to clean freaken everything... I had a bard last night spending her time cleaning every surface she could see in the dusty old ruin we were in last night...

[Ellrin]

The bold section is specifically what I was adverse to, making prestidigitation better than the spells designed specifically to move things is clearly beyond it's power however.

I'm sorry, how is moving an object, again as per my examples, 5 feet per round better than mage hand? As I already explained (and shouldn't have had to in the first place), I wasn't saying the object should move faster than, or even as fast as the character casting the spell. There are ways to move spatially with regards to another moving object than "in the same direction."

As for the second example, the idea was if somebody was concentrating on a long project and needed light, nearby, unattended objects brought to him periodically in order to continue; if the spell could work that way, great, he only needs to spend a standard action occasionally to continue, rather than getting up himself to get it or spending at least a full round casting mage hand and then moving it. This is situationally better than mage hand, yes, but mage hand still far and away trumps it for questions of "I need to do something over there quickly and I'm unwilling to go there myself," which is the primary intent of the spell.


A general list of the shenanigans my players use it for is typical street magician smoke a mirror effects and the like;
-Minor flashes of light or sparkle/flare type effects in colours of the casters choice.

So... better than dancing lights?


-making objects wet

Or treading on the territory of drench?

Look, I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but it almost seems like you're intentionally reading my posts with the most munchkiny interpretation possible. I'm not trying to break the game. I'm asking if, by RAW, there's any reason prestidigitation can't make a light object (under 1 pound) float around slowly, preferably without concentrating (though that last part is definitely at the DM's discretion).

[Ravenica]

I'm sorry, how is moving an object, again as per my examples, 5 feet per round better than mage hand? As I already explained (and shouldn't have had to in the first place), I wasn't saying the object should move faster than, or even as fast as the character casting the spell. There are ways to move spatially with regards to another moving object than "in the same direction." Moving an object without spending an action (specifically what you asked if it could do) Breaks action economy hard. As such that makes it immensely more powerful than mage hand even with only 1/5 the weight limit and speed. It is well beyond what a mere cantrip can do.


As for the second example, the idea was if somebody was concentrating on a long project and needed light, nearby, unattended objects brought to him periodically in order to continue; if the spell could work that way, great, he only needs to spend a standard action occasionally to continue, rather than getting up himself to get it or spending at least a full round casting mage hand and then moving it. This is situationally better than mage hand, yes, but mage hand still far and away trumps it for questions of "I need to do something over there quickly and I'm unwilling to go there myself," which is the primary intent of the spell. Unseen Servant IS the spell you want then but without wasting the precious first level slot?




So... better than dancing lights? not providing any benefit so no, it's a "flash" of light providing no illumination and is a hold over from older editions where it was specifically listed as being usable in that manner, try again.




Or treading on the territory of drench? Nope, soiling an item is LISTED as a use for the spell, try again.


Look, I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but it almost seems like you're intentionally reading my posts with the most munchkiny interpretation possible. I'm not trying to break the game. I'm asking if, by RAW, there's any reason prestidigitation can't make a light object (under 1 pound) float around slowly, preferably without concentrating (though that last part is definitely at the DM's discretion).

You don't like the RAW interpretation that it can't do what you want, thats fine. There is NO RAW precedent to let any spell be directed on a horizontal plane without concentration. The only RAW precedent for free action movement is with Levitate which allows for vertical movement only. Telekinesis is a level 5 spell and even IT can't do what you want it to.

[Ellrin]

{{scrubbed}}

[ahenobarbi]

I'm asking if, by RAW, there's any reason prestidigitation can't make a light object (under 1 pound) float around slowly, preferably without concentrating (though that last part is definitely at the DM's discretion).

There is nothing in RAW that says you can. Therefore you can't (reasoning "it doesn't say I can't therefore I can" is flawed).

[Ravenica]

There is nothing in RAW that says you can. Therefore you can't (reasoning "it doesn't say I can't therefore I can" is flawed).

Careful, your interest in RAW and roleplaying is at stake :smalltongue:

[Barstro]

Furthermore, the pathfinder version is does not explicitly give you any further control over the effect after initial casting nor does it imply you get any.

You and I read the following differently;

Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour.

I think that you get to do whatever effects you want (as many as you want) within that hour.

Your interpretation also makes sense, since it is a cantrip it can be cast all the time. But, my interpretation makes a bit more sense when viewing the psionic version as mentioned earlier, since it is a first-level spell.


Moving an object without spending an action (specifically what you asked if it could do) Breaks action economy hard.

I'm not sure about "hard", but I do see your point. But I think that 1/5 the weight and 1/5 the speed makes the ability to do this without a move action acceptable. Keeping in mind that I think there needs to be a concentration check if the caster is otherwise distracted.

Thank you for clarifying your position. It makes much more sense now.

[ahenobarbi]

Careful, your interest in RAW and roleplaying is at stake :smalltongue:

Lo, what hast I done. All is lost now. I guess I'll go play som MMO, now that I have no interest in roleplaying or RAW.

[Barstro]

Lo, what hast I done. All is lost now. I guess I'll go play som MMO, now that I have no interest in roleplaying or RAW.

Pretty sure MMOs force you do play Rules as Written. I know of no case where you could bribe the computer with Mountain Dew to ignore programming and rule in your favor.

[Ravenica]

You and I read the following differently;


I think that you get to do whatever effects you want (as many as you want) within that hour. Actually we agree on that part, my interpretation simply hinges on each minor act as an instantaneous act that takes an action to preform (usually a swift) as I said earlier my players often use it as stage magic so puff of smoke and flash of light here for a bonus on sleight of hand for misdirection ect some of the more complicated effects such as cleaning or creating an item will take a standard action.


Your interpretation also makes sense, since it is a cantrip it can be cast all the time. But, my interpretation makes a bit more sense when viewing the psionic version as mentioned earlier.
we'll see how you feel about my interpretation once you've read the update, but otherwise thanks :smallbiggrin:




I'm not sure about "hard", but I do see your point. But I think that 1/5 the weight and 1/5 the speed makes the ability to do this without a move action acceptable. Keeping in mind that I think there needs to be a concentration check if the caster is otherwise distracted. The problem with not requiring an action is that there are many things you could abuse 1 pound of pressure for. For instance, the ability to make n (where n=infinite) wands levitate at hand height and follow you (yay i walk slowly) for the cost of nothing; (a 0 level spell you cast with a single standard action and lasts for an hour, then no later actions per trick?) allows you easy access to a huge arsenal without spending actions digging through your pack, the same can be said for any item one pound or less (I'm looking at you, nearly every alchemical item and a large portion of slotless wonderous)


Thank you for clarifying your position. It makes much more sense now.
No problem :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

A player can use WISH to do anything. If Presti cannot do anything that another spell can do, and Wish does anything at all, then by RAW, Presti has no effect.

Actually, wish can, among other things, emulate other spells. Indirectly, that means it can do anything, but since prestidigitation doesn't need to emulate other spells (and can't) to do its job, that's not a problem.

Logic! :smallbiggrin:

[Barstro]

Actually we agree on that part, my interpretation simply hinges on each minor act as an instantaneous act that takes an action to preform (usually a swift)

Good enough for me. I'd handle it differently, with concentration checks, but I think the result is similar enough. I withdraw my objections.

As to your wand thing; I think there are other problems (actually getting the one wand you need out of the haystack) and making a bandoleer would be much easier.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Speaking of Prestidigitation vs. Wish...

*points to sig* :smallbiggrin: