Making a charisma based character (now a beguiler) [Archive]

Bobur

2013-02-20, 02:02 PM

Hi,

I am thinking about a new character for the next adventure (which will come for sure) and I was playing with thoughts about a gnome illusionist or something with high charisma.

Can you actually do an effective mix between a sorcerer and and illusionist ? Or something like that ?

I would like him to be more of a mind trickster and a very charming person.
(In our current campaign, nobody really talks, as nobody has any charisma scores, which I find somewhat boring)

The idea around enchantments, mind control, illusions and charisma skills is interesting. But I never played a sorc. before, any good prestige classes for that direction ? Usually I like to take Prc that fit the character, taking only 1 level of a class just for a certain skill is nonsense to me, unless it has some kind of meaning for the character.

So, any thoughts ?

Khedrac

2013-02-20, 02:16 PM

Check out the Beguiler from PHB2.

Oddly they don't need charisma, but it can be useful to them.
Full Sorcerer spell-casting, however the spell list is pre-chosen (so you know a lot more than a normal sorcerer). The spells are limited to illusions and enchantments with a few useful buffs thrown in (like Haste).
Trapfinding - and to go with it they get virtually all rogue skills.
Only 6 skill points compared to the rogue's 8, however...
Int is the casting stat for both DCs and bonus spells, so they usually end up with more skills than the rogue.
They don't get sneak attack, but at they level they get casting bonuses against opponents denied Dex bonuses (to Save DCs etc).

Despite Charisma being an optional stat it pretty does everything you described.

Bobur

2013-02-20, 03:11 PM

Sounds great, pretty much what I had in mind. ^^ Thanks a lot.
Are there any interesting alternative versions/ feats or Prcs for beguilers ?

Fouredged Sword

2013-02-20, 03:23 PM

Check out PRC bard as an option for an Int casting bard. It adds bard spells to your already cool spellcasting and gives you bardic music you can use to power metamagic through a feat (something like metamagic song or some such, I am AFB right now)

You could also make a very interesting swiftblade (haste is on your spells known).

jedipilot24

2013-02-20, 04:03 PM

Play a straight Bard. With only a little optimization, even a straight Bard can very quickly reach the point where he can make everyone he meets indifferent to him simply by opening his mouth and he's got a decent list of illusions and enchantments in addition to his bardic music. Add in a 1-level Mindbender dip and the Mindsight feat for more fun.

For even more trickery, there's always the Charlatan (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6543.0).

Randomguy

2013-02-20, 04:22 PM

Sounds great, pretty much what I had in mind. ^^ Thanks a lot.
Are there any interesting alternative versions/ feats or Prcs for beguilers ?

Mindbender (Complete Arcane) is a somewhat evil prestige class focused on mind control. It's only worth taking one level, but it gives you telekenisis which lets you take the Mindsight feat, which is awesome.

There's also Nightmare Spinner from Complete Mage, which focuses on nightmare inducing, mind affecting illusions.

Greenish

2013-02-20, 06:21 PM

Mindbender (Complete Arcane) is a somewhat evil prestige class focused on mind control. It's only worth taking one level, but it gives you telekenisis which lets you take the Mindsight feat, which is awesome.Telepathy, not telekinesis.

Bobur

2013-02-20, 06:50 PM

Beguiler, mindbender, nightmare spinner, all sound pretty cool.
The mindbender is cool, walking around with some controlled trolls, but except for that it doesnt really look like much past the 1st level.

Beguiler 5, mindbender1, Nightmare spinner XX, ... is an idea.
Although pure beguiler or just beg.+ night. would be fine with me too.

Bards are something I never even looked at to be honest. no idea of how to play or interact them with other prc or classes.

Carth

2013-02-20, 07:00 PM

Telepathic bards are one of my favorite kinds of bards. Bard9/mindbender1/sublime chord10 (or sublime chord2/fullcaster8) or bard2/human paragon3/unseen seer2 (free silent spell)/mindbender1/ur-priest2 (or apostle of peace, etc)/sublime chord2/mystic theurge8

One of my favorite things about adding telepathy to a bard is that you can play as a mute. Take ranks in perform (oratory), but do it telepathically.

Arbane

2013-02-20, 07:01 PM

Why not just go Sorcerer, and pick up illusion spells?

Randomguy

2013-02-20, 07:03 PM

Why not just go Sorcerer, and pick up illusion spells?

Because that would give less spells known, less skill points and far worse class features than a beguiler.

8wGremlin

2013-02-20, 07:22 PM

Sha'ir (dragon magazine compendium, a published WotC book)
Binder
Anima Mage

Awesome versatility, awesome character

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-02-20, 07:31 PM

Sorcerers don't actually have a problem with spells known if you do it right (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4). The same trick actually works for any spontaneous class.

This Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252815#4) may be what you have in mind, the Necropolitan portion is entirely optional and the character's only alignment restriction is nonlawful.

Shadowcraft Mage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=58p8s16ucuvcm9j50v9gmqj722&topic=5638.0) could be something to look into, though to get the most out of it you'll want an encyclopedic knowledge of enough different evocation and conjuration (summoning and creation) spells to handle any situation that arises.

drax75

2013-02-20, 07:49 PM

Bobur

2013-02-22, 04:10 AM

I am really looking forward to playing a beguiler now. ^^

Mindbender:1 Lv is interesting for the thelepathy and it fits for taste. Though the idea of enslaving monsters is good too I dont think its really that effective.

Nightmarespinner: Is kinda nice too, although I am not too sure how well it works, focussing on fear effects like that. - Imunity to fear and the 1 extra illusion spell slot are nice for sure though. But we loose 1 spell progression on Lv1. And of course the Lv5 fear-death ability is great ^^.

Shadowcraft mage: A little more defensive. focussing on making illusions more effective and deadly if not disbeliefed. The defensive shadow cloak is good too.

Gotta check the guide again for what type of gnomes there are as a good race pick.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-02-22, 02:12 PM

Can you actually do an effective mix between a sorcerer and and illusionist ? Or something like that ?

Just roll up a sorcerer, learn one illusion spell each level, and max out Charisma as much as you can. Since you don't need to prepare spells, you can cast illusions in every spell slot, or if you wind up not needing them, you don't have to cast them at all. It's the beauty of Charisma-based spontaneous casting. :smallbiggrin:

Frosty

2013-02-22, 02:19 PM

far worse class features than a beguiler.What class features (besides a Familiar)? :smallconfused:

Telonius

2013-02-22, 02:29 PM

I'd direct you to this thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872354/Shadowcraft_Mage_Handbook). Sorcerer is a viable (if less powerful than Wizard) entry into Shadowcraft Mage.

EDIT: Shadowcraft Mage is really, really not a defensive build. The whole point of the Shadow Evocation/etc. spells is that you get to mimic Evocation (i.e. blasting) spells without actually "knowing" any blasting spells. They eventually deal more damage than the "real" versions of them.

Stront

2013-02-22, 02:37 PM

Spuddles

2013-02-22, 02:42 PM

Beguiler skills will make you a great talker even if int is your primary feature.

Level 5 sorc, with 18 cha and 12 int.

His bluff is +12. He can choose dipo or something cross class for a +8. And now he has no more skills. No spellcraft, no arcana. He can move two points over, and that brings his numbers down to +7 on sense motive or diplomacy.

Beguiler, 18 int, 12 cha. He can have almost all social skills at +9 (except intimidate for some dumb reason) thanks to his 10 skill points per level. Also note that thanks to synergy bonuses, he will actually end up with as much, or more, in diplomacy and bluff than the high charisma sorc. He can also trapfind or tumble or sneak.

So for the purpose of being the party face and casting illusions, beguiler19/mindbender1 is hard to beat.

A sorc could always load up on spella that buff those checks, of course, but then any time you want to be competent, you have to spend a spell slot. Not to mention that you need to invest precious spells known in disguise self, etc.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-02-22, 02:57 PM

Not to mention that you need to invest precious spells known in disguise self, etc.

Would you not have done that already? Disguise Self is a bad example because of a Hat of Disguise, but I'd never play a Sorcerer who didn't know Charm Person, Disguise Other, and other basic social spells like that.

Synovia

2013-02-22, 03:16 PM

(In our current campaign, nobody really talks, as nobody has any charisma scores, which I find somewhat boring)
I HATE stuff like this. There are plenty of really talkative people who aren't charismatic.

Stront

2013-02-22, 03:22 PM

I HATE stuff like this. There are plenty of really talkative people who aren't charismatic.

Tasslehoff Burrfoot comes to mind or for that matter, so does David Hasselhoff.

Spuddles

2013-02-22, 05:42 PM

Would you not have done that already? Disguise Self is a bad example because of a Hat of Disguise, but I'd never play a Sorcerer who didn't know Charm Person, Disguise Other, and other basic social spells like that.

You basically need to put one spell know per level into meeting skill competency of a beguiler. A 1st level beguiler has the same number of spells per day as a sorc, way more skills, and disguise self, charm person, sleep and mage armor.

As a sorc, you get one spell known. Charm person is useless in combat. You have to wait until about level 4 begin expanding your repertoire. There the beguiler has max ranks in sneak, blinding color surge, and invisibility, as well as glitterdust. If you want to even think about hiding at level 4 as a sorc, you have to pick up invis.

At 8th level, you need voice of the dragon to mimic a beguiler's speaking capabilities. I would rather take evard's black tentacles or wings of flurry.

Basically, at every even sorc level, to stay on par with an equal leveled beguiler, you have to sink your highest spell known into something that isn't going to help much in combat.

Ultimately, sure, with kobold sorc5/mindbender1/mage of the arcane order 4/sandshaper 1, using greater draconic rite, cerebrosis, a bloodline, the apprentice feat, and a runestaff, you can build a sorc that can both sorcelate and lie his ass off. At that point, beguiler picks up versatile spellcaster and magical training and wins everything forever.

But beguiler is much more elegant, more straightforward, and for at least the first 10 levels, better at being a beguiler AND a primary caster than a sorc trying to beguile and primary cast.

And spells have their own problems. Disguise skill is better in every way to a hat of disguise (dc11 to see through, detectable with magic, piercable with true seeing), hide is better than invis. Charm Person is strictly inferior to Diplomacy. Sorcerers don't get detect lies. Casting voice of the dragon before you try lying to people is not very subtle. Trying to put it up at the right time may be tricky. Skills always work, and you dont run out.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-02-22, 06:25 PM

Ouch. Speaking as a Pathfinder player who was just trying to chip in, this

Ultimately, sure, with kobold sorc5/mindbender1/mage of the arcane order 4/sandshaper 1, using greater draconic rite, cerebrosis, a bloodline, the apprentice feat, and a runestaff, you can build a sorc that can both sorcelate and lie his ass off. At that point, beguiler picks up versatile spellcaster and magical training and wins everything forever.

was basically meaningless to me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04). Especially because I'm not actually familiar with the Beguiler.

I still got your main point, though, and of course a sorcerer won't be able to out-beguile a beguiler. I was saying that the spells are still good to know because you don't have to decide in advance how many times you're going to cast a combat spell versus a social spell. Having social spells on hand still helps out in those one or two moments when you need one.

Spuddles

2013-02-22, 06:32 PM

Ouch. Speaking as a Pathfinder player who was just trying to chip in, this

was basically meaningless to me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04). Especially because I'm not actually familiar with the Beguiler.

I still got your main point, though, and of course a sorcerer won't be able to out-beguile a beguiler. I was saying that the spells are still good to know because you don't have to decide in advance how many times you're going to cast a combat spell versus a social spell. Having social spells on hand still helps out in those one or two moments when you need one.
A beguiler automatically knows and can spontaneously cast evey spell on his spell list. The list is composed of pre-picked spells, mostly illusions and enchantments, with quite a bit of overlap, but they also get glitterdust, haste, slow, mage armor, and some other useful buffs/debuffs.

They even get decent battlefield control, albeit a lot of it comes with will saves attached.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-02-22, 07:47 PM

A beguiler automatically knows and can spontaneously cast every spell on his spell list. The list is composed of pre-picked spells, mostly illusions and enchantments, with quite a bit of overlap, but they also get glitterdust, haste, slow, mage armor, and some other useful buffs/debuffs.

They even get decent battlefield control, albeit a lot of it comes with will saves attached.

A beguiler automatically knows and can spontaneously cast every spell on his spell list.

spontaneously cast every spell

What.

I'm too speechless to even think of something witty to fill the ten-character minimum.

hypnotoad

2013-02-22, 08:00 PM

What.

And your point is...?

Hint: He's right.

Spuddles

2013-02-22, 08:14 PM

What.

I'm too speechless to even think of something witty to fill the ten-character minimum.

If you aren't familiar with it.... Rather irritating.

TaiLiu

2013-02-22, 08:21 PM

Just a idea:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Optimized+Beguiler

"Google is banned in my country." :smalltongue:

AttilaTheGeek

2013-02-22, 08:22 PM

I don't doubt you, I just really need to familiarize myself with the 3.5 material, that's all. And did you mean it's rather irritating to deal with one, or rather irritating to see me not know what it is?

Spuddles

2013-02-22, 08:53 PM

AttilaTheGeek

2013-02-22, 10:23 PM

To deal with people that don't know what they're talking about :smallbiggrin:

:smalleek:
To the bookstore internet!
*leaves thread*

Bobur

2013-02-23, 05:10 AM

checking the guide and some books

The standart gnome seems to be the best way for a beguiler thanks to the +1DC on illusions + shadowcraft mage, although a half elve or a sun elve is good too.

Whisper gnome... the speed is great, 2DEX. 2 CON is nice, -2 STR doesnt matter, but the -2 CHA is somewhat bothersome.

A gnome with bonus on INT and DEX and no penalty to CHA would be best ^^

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-02-23, 11:27 AM

8wGremlin

2013-02-23, 01:35 PM

If you can't take whisper gnome,then may I suggest the lowly forest gnome, they are better than the standard gnome

Bobur

2013-02-23, 01:37 PM

Air gnome... never heard of those elemental versions. In which book are they in case my DM asks ? No breath, +2 Dex instead of con sounds good too. Better ini, better rogue skills, and a better ranged shot in case I use a bow or crossbow.

Whisper gnome: Great, only the -2 Cha is buggy.

Chaos gnomes: +2Dex, +2Con, +2Cha, -2Str. He lacks the illusion bonus and has a +1Lv adj and some strange abilities.

Tinker gnomes: +2 Int, +2Con, -2Str.
But again no illusion bonus. No Lv adj. either and only 20ft.

Halfe elves: Even better for the social skill parts. Disguise works better too as they are medium and have better speed. But they are bad at hiding and lack the gnomes illusion bonus.

Elves: Better casters and medium. A +2 int bonus is equal to the +1 DC for illusions of the gnomes... and more versatile.
... Now that I wrote it down... there is hardly a reason to pick a gnome except for the +4 hide bonus.

Sun/grey elve ?
Or a dark elve, while we are at it.

Changeling: No abil. bonus or feats, but they are the perfect disguise race.

CON is good for fort saves and Conc. But I guess the Dex is better in comparison.

Beguiler/ 1 Mindbender/ Beguiler seems legit
or mabye 5 levels of Shadowcraft mage later. Depending if my DM allows RoS.

Nightmarespinner sounds like fun too, but beguiler arent known for the big number of fear effects. ^^

More levels of mindbender would only be good for fun too. I guess I will decide it when I am actually playing the character. ^^

Bobur

2013-02-24, 05:17 PM

Seriously, what reason is there to take a gnome over an elve or even a half elve except for the hide bonus you get for beeing small ?
Ok, the spell like abil are somewhat nice I guess.

But with a +2 Int bonus you could do way more, and a med sized char can disguise as most any character you could ever interact with. Well... you could reate an illusion to talk for you, but that doesnt work all the time.

Shadowcraft mage isnt really a problem, it even states in the prereq. that it doesnt really HAS to be a gnome.

Could somebody tell me what bonus a drow would actuall get in 3.5e ? I find so many different versions in the net hat I cant tell.
I saw something with +2Int and +2 Cha which would be perfect, but I cant be sure. there are some with LA and some without...

Spuddles

2013-02-24, 05:22 PM

Drow is +2 int + 2 cha +2 dex -2 con, some ****ty SLAs and LA+2.

Arcane Gnome from DR291 is totally boss:
http://blackmarches.wikidot.com/forum/t-581729

Randomguy

2013-02-24, 06:04 PM

Seriously, what reason is there to take a gnome over an elve or even a half elve except for the hide bonus you get for beeing small ?
Ok, the spell like abil are somewhat nice I guess.

1. Higher AC from being small.
2. Your constitution is 4 higher than an elf's, so you get some much needed survivability.
3. +1 to illusion DC's, and if you play a beguiler about half your spells should be illusion spells.

Ouch. Speaking as a Pathfinder player who was just trying to chip in, this

Ultimately, sure, with kobold sorc5/mindbender1/mage of the arcane order 4/sandshaper 1, using greater draconic rite, cerebrosis, a bloodline, the apprentice feat, and a runestaff, you can build a sorc that can both sorcelate and lie his ass off. At that point, beguiler picks up versatile spellcaster and magical training and wins everything forever.

was basically meaningless to me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04). Especially because I'm not actually familiar with the Beguiler.

Draconic rite of passage lets kobolds cast sorcerer spells as if they were 1 level higher. It's found online.
A level of mindbender gives telekinesis (the rest of the class isn't worth it) which is decent on its own but you can take a feat called mindsight that's kind of like blindsight within the range of your telekinesis. The class is in Complete Arcane, the feat is in Lords of Madness.
Mage of the arcane order lets you take an extra full round action to get any sorcerer/wizard spell from the phb, but you need to cast it the next round and you can only get spells up to a certain level based on the number of levels you have in the class and you can only get 1/2 you CL in spell levels, and you need to pay back the spells, but it's still awesome. Also in complete Arcane.
Sandshaper is a class in sandstorm that expands your spells known by a lot of sandy spells (most of them are really good). A sorcerer 5/Sandshaper 1 has 30 spells known +cantrips, a sorcerer 6 has 6 spells known + cantrips. (A level 6 beguiler has 53 spells known plus cantrips.)
Runestaff are like staffs but instead of charges they add to your spells known.
Bloodlines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) are confusing. They give you various benefits.
cerebrosis is a feat from dragon magazine. It expands your spells known in exchange for -1 constitution.
The apprentice feat gives some more spells for casters, for other classes it has other benefits. It's in DMG2.
Versatile spellcaster lets a spontaneous caster like a beguiler cast a higher level spell by sacrificing 2 slots of 1 level lower.

The point is that to get the same amount illusion+enchantment skillz as a beguiler it takes the sorcerer A LOT more effort.

As an FYI: that one post mentioned things from about 10 different sources. Welcome to high op 3.5 edition.

Spuddles

2013-02-24, 06:18 PM

Thank you, Randomguy, for explaining that.

I would like to point out that I was referring to the Bloodline feats from a dragon magazine. They are for sorcerers and add one spell known to each level from a pre-set quasi-thematic spell list (why the fire bloodline has tongues but not fireball, I will never know). Combined with the Apprentice feat, you can switch out your bloodline spell at each new spell level for any other spell on the sorc list. In other words, you trade 2 feats for an extra known spell per level. Between cerebrosis and sandshaper, though, you probably don't need the bloodline feat. There will be plenty of feeder spells, like parching touch or aching dread, that you can swap for good stuff.

I can't remember which forumite I learned that trick from. I want to say it was the same one who discovered level 1 domain elf wizards casting 9th level spells.

Mindbender gives telepathy, not telekineses.

Magical Training gives you a spell book; Rules Compendium lets you both put spells in the spell book and count those spells as spells known. So basically, you learn spells as a wizard and use Versatile Spellcaster to gain access to those spells in your book.

Bobur

2013-02-25, 03:41 AM

So many options to expand the spells. Or otherwise buff him up. ^^°
I dont want to overdo it though and it has to be somewhat reasonable for the character to have such a spell or feat.

A Doppelganger bloodline might be somwhat interesting. A disguise bonus + alter self, which pretty much solves problems about the size. Although spells can be seen through with other spells...

Beeing a sandbender (if the DM allows it in the 1st place) while he never was in the desert before would be pretty poor.
I would stay away from Dragon Mag, as no one in our group could check on that. I would prefer trying to stick to as few sources as possible. In the end it will all be decided before the adventure starts, especially which sources will be allowed or not.

And so many race varioations to pick from. Gnomes, elves and others are all interesting. Gnomes seem to make the most sense in the end, even though I really dislike it that they are small and therefore suck in disguising as humans or other medium creatures. An individual item for enlarge person might be useful there.

A better caster INT is the most important stat, after that a mix between CON and DEX, followed by CHA, Will, STR.

An actual illusionist specialist would have it a bit easier, simply taking master specialist and stuff like that to boost the saves into the sky. + Shadowcraft mage.

A beguiler has a harder time picking a PrC as they actually hurt his adv. learing. 1 Lv mindbender and 5 lv of shadowcraft mage somwhat hurt a beguiler in HP and skill points. Although they are good for his DC and stuff too.

Spuddles

2013-02-25, 03:57 PM

I don't think Beguilers *need* a prestige class, not if you are playing a beguiler to be a sneaky little bastard with illusions and stuff. A dip in mindbender is all you really need, and a level of sandshaper can be useful.

Shadowcraft Mage is ok on beguiler, but Shadowcrafting, to be top notch, requires Shadow Adept, from forgotten realms.

Either way, if you wanted to be a primary caster, entering with focused specialist illusionist would be better. A beguiler is a primary skill monkey and a secondary caster, really. Sacrificing skill monkeying for casting kind of makes him average at both.

Sandshaper has some fluff requirements, for sure, but on my sorcerer, his background comes from the desert. His lineage has blue dragon in it, or so he claims. To gain the benefits of the class, you need to take a feat and find a relic from the desert, then spend gold on an 8 hour ritual establishing your connection to that place in the desert. It can certainly make sense as a sorcerer trying to expand his repertoire. Tell the DM you are interested in the class, on your adventures you find books about this ancient place, you hunt down a relic, perform a ritual, take a level (or more!).

Cerebrosis can be fluffed largely the same way.

Vaz

2013-02-25, 04:53 PM

Lesser Aasimar is a LA0 Race with +2 Cha.

Bobur

2013-02-26, 09:51 AM

I definately wanna play this type of character because of the mix of skills together with the enchant and illusion spells. It doesnt have to be on the level of a killer gnome or something like that.

But I am still a little concerned about the really low saves. Even on Lv 12 they are pretty bad.
Mindbender 1 would push the willsave a little.
Shadowcraft mage looses skillppoints and HP, but the Lv1 and 2 bonus is pretty nice too. Not so sure if the rest really works that well together with a beguiler.
Shadow adept has some neat hiding skills, but is somewhat hard to get into.

The BAB isnt that much of a problem, but the saves might cause trouble.
Even with a save booster item like a cloak +2 it doesnt get much better.
There are skills to use INt and Charisma for other stats... which would be pretty useful, but 2 feats for that ?
Usually you would want to use feats for stuff like impr. ini, shadow weave magic (if possible) spell focus, impr. spell focus.... that should be the most important feats. I like regional feats and sometimes flaws too, but they have to fit the character.

Im not used to meta magic. Do I need a feat to apply meta magic to a spell while casting ? A sp. caster doesnt prepare his spells so Im not sure.

The skilltricks (c.scoun.) are pretty usefull, especially the cloaked casting trick.

Bobur

2013-02-27, 11:33 AM

I think an arcane gnome (if allowed) will be the way to go. Makes the most sense.

Female Arcane Gnome
Name: Mara or Tinka Blackfeather, Nickname "Raven"

-2 STR/Will
+2 Dex/Int if I remember correctly

Lv1 Stats: 32 point buy system:
My first try:

STR: 8-2 =6
DEX: 12+2 = 14
CON: 14
INT: 16 +2 =18
WIS: 10-2 =8
CHA: 16

Of course I could push the INT to the max too:

STR: 8-2 = 6
DEX: 10+2 =12
CON: 14
INT: 18+2 =20
WIS: 10-2 =8
CHA: 14

But I think the 18 INT total should be pretty fine as well.
Thought about a flaw too as I wouldnt go into melee combat anyway unless I take the Dex for STR feat. ^^

Noncombatant
You are relatively inept at melee combat.

Effect: You take a -2 penalty on all melee attack rolls.

Lv1 feat: Impr. ini ? spell focus ench or illusion
Lv1 flaw bonus feat: Shadow weave magic would be great... but worshipping Shar? ... or 13 Wis... If I want to take this feat I am better off with a whisper gnome (do they get the illusion bonus ?)
Arcane disciple... nice but again. needs wisdom.

Vaz

2013-02-27, 01:03 PM

What happened to Charisma based?

Bobur

2013-02-27, 01:47 PM

At first I thought I had to play a sorc focussed on ench and illusion to be somewhat good in this field. But compared to a focus. wizz he is somwhat bad and a bard just isnt interesting to play.

A beguiler isnt as dependant of charisma, but makes up for it with his high skill number + the spells and INT base.

So it somewhat turned into a beguiler. ^^ Maybe with mindbender or shadowcraft mage as PrC mixed in. depends on how the character actually plays. ^^

Vaz

2013-02-27, 05:39 PM

If you have a look at the rules for skills based on Charisma, you'll see that they're primarily based on interaction; bluffing, intimidating, befriending etc. You can always use that as a back up for when your spells fail.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19867266/Enchanter_Handbook

Might be worthy have a boojie there.

Bobur

2013-02-27, 06:07 PM

Argh more choices. ^^

Illusionist ?
Enchanter ? Sounds very interesting too.
Beguiler ?

The wizzard based stuff works better with prestige classes as you usually only GAIN stuff by doing so, but the beguiler has both of them in one ^^° + a lot of skillpoints, just not as many different spells.

I slightly tend to the enchantment focus or beguiler with enchantment focus. Although gnomes are better for illusions (sllightly) In the end its the mix of both that makes it so attractive + spont. casting.

The beguilers covers many of the most important spells from both schools, and he has high skills + spont casting. Too bad he cant PrC so easily as a Wiz does. There are no variations for beguilers either.

nedz

2013-02-27, 06:31 PM

Beguiler skills will make you a great talker even if int is your primary feature.

Level 5 sorc, with 18 cha and 12 int.

His bluff is +12. He can choose dipo or something cross class for a +8. And now he has no more skills. No spellcraft, no arcana. He can move two points over, and that brings his numbers down to +7 on sense motive or diplomacy.

Beguiler, 18 int, 12 cha. He can have almost all social skills at +9 (except intimidate for some dumb reason) thanks to his 10 skill points per level. Also note that thanks to synergy bonuses, he will actually end up with as much, or more, in diplomacy and bluff than the high charisma sorc. He can also trapfind or tumble or sneak.

So for the purpose of being the party face and casting illusions, beguiler19/mindbender1 is hard to beat.

But the Sorcerer will be at +3 on the interpersonal skills, which are often opposed roles. So Beguiler has more breadth but less depth. Spending those extra skill points on skills you neither need nor use is of low utility.

Beguiler is a very good option, but Sorcerer does allow you to have any spell you want: no matter what school it is in. Fly for instance.

Sorcerer has more than enough spells known to cast all of the useful illusions, and for some utilities as well.

Bobur

2013-02-27, 07:01 PM

Yea... the choice is hard to make.

Playing around with some thoughts.

Arcane gnome for int and hide bonus
Starting as a cloist-cleric might be worth a thought. Has the same HD as a beguiler and the same number of skills... although you can almost only spend them on knowledge stuff. --° And it delays the already late spell progression of the beguiler further (Lv2 spells on Lv4- although that might be houseruled). And her wisdom will be pretty low, so the 1st level will be ... pretty useless. ^^

But you would get 3 domains.
Shar would be a nice godess (shadowweave magic feat), yea, she is evil. So what ? Its the lady od the night I say. ^^

Do the 2 bonus domains from a cl. cleric have to be on the deitys list ?
If not I would go for tyranny (+2DC compulsion) and domination (spell focus ench)

Spuddles

2013-02-27, 07:07 PM

But the Sorcerer will be at +3 on the interpersonal skills, which are often opposed roles. So Beguiler has more breadth but less depth. Spending those extra skill points on skills you neither need nor use is of low utility.

Beguiler is a very good option, but Sorcerer does allow you to have any spell you want: no matter what school it is in. Fly for instance.

Sorcerer has more than enough spells known to cast all of the useful illusions, and for some utilities as well.

Sorcerer is clearly the stronger arcane contender, no doubt, but the advantage the sorcerer has is quite marginal and only for maybe the first 5 levels. By level 6, the beguiler is using Glibness for +30 for his bluff checks. The Sorcerer is strictly worse at everything.

I suppose OP wants a character that can do the following:

Find out who runs the local onyx cartel. (Gather Info)
Bribe a merchant into giving up his contact. (Diplomacy)
Scare a lackey into spilling the beans on the operational details. (Intimidate)
Know when the lackey lies. (Sense Motive)
Disguise himself as local noble. (Disguise)
Convince the guards of his identity. (Bluff)
Pocket the guards keys when they aren't looking. (Sleight of Hand)
Infiltrate the base. (Hide & Move Silent)
Gather information. (Search, Spot, Listen)
Plant false or misleading information, or sabotage something. (Forgery, Disable Device)
Deduce what the onyx are being used for. (Know: Arcana)
Find a hidden door and the traps on it. (Search)
Understand what an active magical device does. (Spellcraft)
Take control of said magical device. (Use Magic Device)
Be able to cast your spells as the places starts to shake violently. (Concentration)
Escape the clutches of an enormous golem. (Tumble)

Do at least 25% of that on a sorcerer chassis, 32pb, at levels 1, 5, and 10.

Sorcerers are good at exactly one social skill. There are 5 of them.

nedz

2013-02-27, 08:15 PM

Spuddles

2013-02-27, 08:48 PM

Actually there is another option — sorry — Gnome Cleric with the Illusion and Trickery domains.

Would work well with the Spontaneous Cleric variant, or Cloistered Cleric also.

This would, of course, be a Wisdom based build.

Now the choice of spells available isn't ideal, though if you could wrangle the Shadow domain too: you would be golden.

If you want to have int as 3rd stat and charisma as 5th instead of int as 1st and charisma as 3rd or 4th. And also want to limit your illusion spells to once a day unless you're using domain spontaneity or whatever that feat is.

It might be the more powerful option because of Gate, Planar Ally, and Holy Word, but was that really the point?

Bobur

2013-02-28, 04:34 AM

Some of the better illusion spells a beguiler is actually lacking.

Phantasmal assailants (SC) Lv 2 spell, deals -4Wis/-4 dex damage
Phantasmal Killer (PHB) Kills a living target if they fail will/fort saves.
Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, related spells (PHB)
Hallucinatory Terrain (PHB)
Shades (PHB)
Sensory Deprivation

Shadowcraft mage would be a possibility as a PrC, the concealment is nice and the automatic silent illusions.
It has only D4 but at least 4 skillpoints.

Good Ench spells a beguiler doenst know:
Command, entice gift, irr. dance, hid. laughter, ray of stupidity. It seems a beguiler covers most of the important enchant spells, although some are left out and the alter memory spell later as well as the powerword spells.

nedz

2013-02-28, 07:29 AM

If you want to have int as 3rd stat and charisma as 5th instead of int as 1st and charisma as 3rd or 4th. And also want to limit your illusion spells to once a day unless you're using domain spontaneity or whatever that feat is.

It might be the more powerful option because of Gate, Planar Ally, and Holy Word, but was that really the point?

Spontaneous Cleric allows multiple domain spells per day as does the domain spontaneity variant rule. I mentioned it because it's an interesting option which is worth considering.

Bobur

2013-03-01, 03:38 AM

I definately want this casting skillmonkey stile of player. Indeed he doesnt have much of a damage potential, at the best he can use a range weapon based on a more or less good Dex stat, but that would be it.

Comparing the skills, there is simply no way for a wiz or sorc to be anywhere close to his set. Sorc has bluff as a class skill, but thats pretty much all he has.

I now have to check how to get some more of the listed spells/ dmg into his build.
Some come by adv. learning, some may be cancelled out thanks to DM book limitations and some may come in with a runestaff.

Interesting feats:
Spell focus, gr. spell focus (either enchant or illusion)
Shadow weave magic
Heighten spell
quicken spell
Rapid meta magic
Potent enchantment: Maybe

Tattoo focus: Region Thay - Gives more background to the character.
But beeing an enchanter is somewhat difficult to do for a beguiler. ^^°

Apprentice might as well be a nice 1st level feat and would solve a lot of the problems with spells. As you could simply swap out an older unused spell to learn a new one.
Not exactly sure how this works on a beguiler though can you kick out a low spell and replace it with a higher one or the same level?
Might be an interesting storyline: Coming from a cloister into the city, beeing picked up by a shady sorcerer type as an apprentice. But as she is neutral chaotic she has hardly the will to stick for too long and leaves on Lv5.

If I would go for a cloistered cleric as 1st Lv (which would be a bummer skillwise) I could add Illusion and Dominantion domain for basically +1 on both schools DC. EDIT: No, neither illusion nor gnome domain add a DC, just CL. So tyranny might be the better pick there.

PRC: Shadowcraft: Good for illusions, especially the auto silent illusions and semi shadow magic are especially useful. Doent have to be all the way through though.

Mindbender: Might be houseruled to a better spellcaster progression. Might be interesting flavorwise. With full caster progression its actually a lot better.
And fits the enchanter type really well.

Nightmare spinner: Like mentioned in the enchanter handbook, it MAY be changed to enchantment focus + a bonus that you can effect almost all creatures, that are usually imune. If the DM does so this would be great.

A wizz build could look something like this:
Cl. Cleric> Wizz> focus wiz> mindbender (maybe) > nightmare spinner or fate spinner > archmage
A beguiler with classes like that would loose a lot of HD and skillpoints.