Adding Charisma to Initiative

[Sylthia]

My reasoning is a character with high Charisma would have more battle-presence/luck/what-have-you and be able to get the edge and act first more often.

I've been doing this for a few years now, and it seems to work out okay. We add the charisma modifier in addition to dex to determine initiative.

It gives Cha a property for every class, putting it on par with pretty much every other stat. Str affects carrying capacity, Dex AC and Reflex saves, Con HP and Fort saves, Int Skill points, and Wis Will saves. Charisma seems to be left out, only affecting some skill rolls and not much else, unless your class uses Cha.

It doesn't kill you if your Cha isn't great, but makes it less of an obvious dump stat.

[Grindle]

My reasoning is a character with high Charisma would have more battle-presence/luck/what-have-you and be able to get the edge and act first more often.

I've been doing this for a few years now, and it seems to work out okay. We add the charisma modifier in addition to dex to determine initiative.

It gives Cha a property for every class, putting it on par with pretty much every other stat. Str affects carrying capacity, Dex AC and Reflex saves, Con HP and Fort saves, Int Skill points, and Wis Will saves. Charisma seems to be left out, only affecting some skill rolls and not much else, unless your class uses Cha.

It doesn't kill you if your Cha isn't great, but makes it less of an obvious dump stat.

I'm not sure what Charisma has to do with one's ability to react quickly to the start of combat. I think Initiative is just a character's speed of reaction.

If you want to do it, feel free to do it, though.:smallwink:

[Sylthia]

I could really see any of the mental stats affecting initiative and wouldn't be surprised if there were feats that granted it, but since Charisma doesn't do much, I house-ruled it in.

[GunbladeKnight]

Wisdom makes more sense than Charisma, since Wisdom is awareness of your surroundings. Then again, Charisma makes more sense than Wisdom on will saves.

[Omnicrat]

Wisdom makes more sense than Charisma, since Wisdom is awareness of your surroundings. Then again, Charisma makes more sense than Wisdom on will saves.

Only since charisma has been re-branded as mental constitution, will being the equivalent of a mental fortitude save.

[vasharanpaladin]

Only since charisma has been re-branded as mental constitution, will being the equivalent of a mental fortitude save.

3.5e defines Charisma as your sense of self, while Wisdom is your ability to perceive others. Thus, Will saves should have been Cha-based from the beginning, or at the very least they should have split the difference between enchantment (resisted by force of personality) and illusion (resisted by spotting the thread) effects.

[Grundy]

I have always paired the stats like this
Str= Cha- affecting the world around you
Dex= Int- speed and precision
Con= Wis- durability and fortitude.

Obviously not perfect, since Int reflects both speed and memory, and wisdom is awareness, which probably pairs with Dex that way, but that's what's closest for me.

One thing I have noticed about "high Cha" people in real life is that they are typically very quick thinking and good/fast/alert in an argument, regardless of their physicality. I can see that aiding them in a physical fight, so I think there's some basis for it.
Maybe it depends in your definition if Charisma. In high school I though it told you if the character was pretty or plain. Now, I sum it up as "how good are you at getting other people to do what you want them to- regardless of reasons, techniques or whether they like you or not".

[Plato Play-Doh]

I would consider charisma force of personality and/or likeability, and I don't think it applies to reaction time. However, it makes sense with will, as was already said.

[vasharanpaladin]

I would consider charisma force of personality and/or likeability, and I don't think it applies to reaction time.

Tieflings get a feat that does this in 4e, Imperious Majesty. The general gist is, everyone's so busy admiring you that you get a chance to react first. :smallcool:

[Plato Play-Doh]

Tieflings get a feat that does this in 4e, Imperious Majesty. The general gist is, everyone's so busy admiring you that you get a chance to react first. :smallcool:

Shouldn't that be a penalty to their initiative checks? Like, you could houserule that that can be accomplished with an intimidate check or something. I suppose that could let charisma add to initiative, but it's not really the best mechanical representation of what the character is doing, which is really, in the end, the whole point of RPGs, isn't it? (Well, other than fun, of course).

Also, THAT DEMONIC PERSON...THING...IS SO AMAZING! I AM AWESTRUCK BY ITS MAJESTY!

...Weirdos.:smallwink:

[Waargh!]

I would consider charisma force of personality and/or likeability, and I don't think it applies to reaction time. However, it makes sense with will, as was already said.

Charisma literally means "gift", implying usually that is granted by divine means. So it could be anything really. So if you make a luck based feat where you react first because you are just lucky, charisma suits it. Imperious majesty is another excuse. So you can power anything really with charisma but the point is that it needs to be something specific. So generally everyone that has charisma to also react faster, makes a little sense. I would say make it into a feat that justifies it even if you use several optional reasons and you end up giving it for free for all PCs.

[Omnicrat]

Charisma literally means "gift", implying usually that is granted by divine means. So it could be anything really. So if you make a luck based feat where you react first because you are just lucky, charisma suits it. Imperious majesty is another excuse. So you can power anything really with charisma but the point is that it needs to be something specific. So generally everyone that has charisma to also react faster, makes a little sense. I would say make it into a feat that justifies it even if you use several optional reasons and you end up giving it for free for all PCs.

This is a logical fallacy. Even if that was the original meaning of the word, that is not the current meaning in English, and so its original meaning is irrelevant.

[Yitzi]

CHA is force of personality; how will a forceful personality help you get the jump on someone?

Now, WIS to init I could understand. But CHA?
If you want to make CHA more relevant, a better way would be to use it instead of WIS for Will saves (except maybe against illusions and Enchantment(charm) effects), and then fill in the slack from WIS with being added to initiative.

[Sylthia]

CHA is force of personality; how will a forceful personality help you get the jump on someone?

Now, WIS to init I could understand. But CHA?
If you want to make CHA more relevant, a better way would be to use it instead of WIS for Will saves (except maybe against illusions and Enchantment(charm) effects), and then fill in the slack from WIS with being added to initiative.

For charisma, charismatic individuals could be more confident and have a slight edge in acting, whereas others might have a slight hesitation. Since all actions take 6 seconds and happen almost simultaneously, it could be used as reasoning. Luck is another reason. Since charisma is a "leadership" stat, others often follow their lead.

[Zeful]

Wisdom makes more sense than Charisma, since Wisdom is awareness of your surroundings. Then again, Charisma makes more sense than Wisdom on will saves.

Wisdom makes more sense than Dexterity, as Wisdom is awareness of your surroundings and Dexterity is manual precision.

[Frathe]

Wisdom makes more sense than Dexterity, as Wisdom is awareness of your surroundings and Dexterity is manual precision.

Dexterity is also agility, which is why it's added to AC. It makes as much sense as Wisdom does for Initiative--it's how fast you can physically react.

[Grundy]

Wisdom helps your spot and listen- just because you're aware of the enemy doesn't mean you can react quickly- moving the corpus requires dexterity, even if its just to open your mouth.
I just don't see Cha as a will save. Wisdom is specifically called out as willpower. Charisma as force of personality- bending people to your will. Wisdom is resisting, charisma acting on others.

It seems like wisdom is a bit of a catch all, to be sure, but it makes sense to me. I've met many dynamic people who lack willpower, but are excellent with other people.

[Xefas]

Hmmm... which ability score to add to initiative checks...

Well, Dexterity is the default! It's your reflexes. Your brain's ability to send those signals to your muscles quicker. Or perhaps even a representation of your ability to retain muscle memory, and thus react faster. Perfectly reasonable.

Although, you have to process the imminent threat of danger. You have to know the danger, before you can react to it. Knowing and processing are definitely Intelligence.

But you have to be able to notice the danger before your brain can process it! And situational awareness and perception are all Wisdom.

Of course, once all that processing is done, your body knows to react, and certainly will, but can it do so quickly enough? You see, it doesn't matter how good your reflexes are if, say, you're out of shape to begin with, and your muscles just aren't strong enough to move you with sufficient speed to make the difference. So Strength is certainly part of it. One could argue Constitution, too!

I say we should add every ability score modifier except Charisma to your initiative roll. And then apply your Charisma modifier as a penalty to everyone else's initiative roll, who can perceive you, as a form of hesitation.

Now everyone is included!

(You can do this kind of breakdown for a lot of things.)

[Grundy]

@ xefas:
Initiative isn't about thinking or analyzing, it's about reacting. Awareness is taken care of in surprise, and having a Str and con of 1 is sufficient to keep your body from collapsing under its own weight (barely). If you're overloaded with gear you get a movement penalty, but it doesn't and shouldn't affect reaction speed. Dexterity encompasses physical and mental quickness, part of which is a muscular function, to be sure, but its separate from Str mechanically. The charisma part I like, but its easier to represent and track as a personal bonus.

[LordErebus12]

I dont think Charisma has any place in Initiative.

I would argue a +1 bonus per four ranks in perception (listen and/or spot if 3.5). Those more aware of the battlefield have better reactions than those who do not.

[Yitzi]

@ xefas:
Awareness is taken care of in surprise

Only as a simple yes/no. I'd think that even if you don't actually hear enough to detect someone, it might have a subconscious effect that helps you react sooner.


Dexterity encompasses physical and mental quickness

Where do you see that it encompasses mental quickness?

[RedWarlock]

I generally favor putting either wisdom or charisma to initiative.

Wisdom can make sense as awareness, while charisma would represent the force of personality making you bold and decisive, pushing past the hesitation like mentioned above.

Charisma needs something, without a dependent class feature, dumping it has no major penalty, whereas every other stat has more significant problems as a dump-stat.

[Synovia]

I generally favor putting either wisdom or charisma to initiative.

Wisdom can make sense as awareness, while charisma would represent the force of personality making you bold and decisive, pushing past the hesitation like mentioned above.

The bolded sounds like Wisdom to me.

[Yitzi]

Charisma needs something, without a dependent class feature, dumping it has no major penalty, whereas every other stat has more significant problems as a dump-stat.

How about Will saves?

[Sho]

{{scrubbed}}

Charisma to Initiative is best done as a class feature or a feat.

There is no base mechanical reason to use it.


Wisdom makes more sense than Charisma, since Wisdom is awareness of your surroundings. Then again, Charisma makes more sense than Wisdom on will saves.
This, though I'd say it makes as much sense AS Wisdom does on Will saves, which is why it's so nice that 4e keys Will saves on either.

[LordErebus12]

Charisma to Initiative is best done as a class feature or a feat.

There is no base mechanical reason to use it.


im inclined to agree

[Grundy]

Only as a simple yes/no. I'd think that even if you don't actually hear enough to detect someone, it might have a subconscious effect that helps you react sooner.



Where do you see that it encompasses mental quickness?

As reaction time. Not speed, like calculating 234 x 987, that's Int.

Edit:
Look at it this way:
High Wis lets you know something's up.
High Dex lets you react/move quickly once you're aware.
High Cha makes you decisive.
The character with a good wis, or at least perception, will get to act first more often than a character with good dex when there's surprise involved.
If it's just a matter of pulling the trigger, then the high dex goes first.
A high Cha character will do something more than have a startle reflex- they'll make a decision instantly.
What's wrong with that?
Truly great situational awareness will involve high perception, speed and decisive action.

[Grundy]

The bolded sounds like Wisdom to me.

I don't see wisdom= quick decisions.

A high Wis character will tend to make good decisions.
A high Int character will tend to recall and calculate quickly and accurately.
A high Cha character will tend to be decisive.

Typical examples of people with one high and two low stats are the High Cha charlatan who makes a great first impression by seeming to be an authority, but on a closer look doesn't know what he's talking about; the high Int sage who makes a room-sized incredibly complicated contraption that makes toast; and the high Wis crotchety old man who takes forever to do the simplest thing but never makes a mistake.

[Sho]

As reaction time. Not speed, like calculating 234 x 987, that's Int.

Edit:
Look at it this way:
High Wis lets you know something's up.
High Dex lets you react/move quickly once you're aware.
High Cha makes you decisive.
The character with a good wis, or at least perception, will get to act first more often than a character with good dex when there's surprise involved.
If it's just a matter of pulling the trigger, then the high dex goes first.
A high Cha character will do something more than have a startle reflex- they'll make a decision instantly.
What's wrong with that?
Truly great situational awareness will involve high perception, speed and decisive action.

That's why there's Intelligence to Initiative feats and class features. Not Charisma ones.

[Grundy]

That's why there's Intelligence to Initiative feats and class features. Not Charisma ones.

Because a high int lets you do math really fast? What does that have to do with reaction time? Coming up with a plan quickly, perhaps. But that's different than just moving NOW.

I always assumed the int to init feats were a bone thrown to that poor dog, the wizard, and all his spellcasting buddies, who never get anything nice.
Seriously, though, I think there are several types of fast thinking, and int reflects the ones about problem solving and information recall, not instant reactions or snap decisions. Cha is the mental stat that best does that.

[Sho]

Because a high int lets you do math really fast? What does that have to do with reaction time? Coming up with a plan quickly, perhaps. But that's different than just moving NOW.
Read that. See this.


A high Int character will tend to recall and calculate quickly and accurately.

A high Cha character will do something more than have a startle reflex- they'll make a decision instantly.
Now fixed.


A high Int character will do something more than have a startle reflex- they'll make a decision instantly.
Coming up with a quick plan falls within the same parameters as having a decisive thought of the moment.

A thought of the moment I just had is that you might be arguing Devil's Advocate for the case being for Charisma to apply to Initiative, and I might be for that. The real case already however stated multiple times over as to the definition of Charisma and what could be real additions for people to use said attribute for their initiative checks: Feats, or Class Features.

[Grundy]

I don't really care how Cha is applied to Init, or really whether it is or not. It's not my table, after all :smallsmile: Applying it with a feat or class feature works for me, or as a basic feature of init works for me too. I just think that the mental stat that best applies to init is Cha, and that the OP has a good idea.
As to Int vs. Cha, a quick plan is not the same thing as an instant reaction.
Int isn't used to interact to people, it's used to remember or calculate. Cha is used to react to other people, and to act on other people. That's initiative.

Let's try this, if you think of the stats as different ways to use your brain:

People using Cha don't hesitate, they seize the opportunity- whatever that is.
People using Int will hesitate while they're taking time- even a little- to calculate or remember.
People using Wis will hesitate- even a little- to make sure that their action is the best one available.

So in that first moment, Cha is the best function to use. After that, it's still a good choice, but it better be tempered by Int and Wis or you'll end up doing really stupid and foolish things.

[Frathe]

I don't really care how Cha is applied to Init, or really whether it is or not. It's not my table, after all :smallsmile: Applying it with a feat or class feature works for me, or as a basic feature of init works for me too. I just think that the mental stat that best applies to init is Cha, and that the OP has a good idea.
As to Int vs. Cha, a quick plan is not the same thing as an instant reaction.
Int isn't used to interact to people, it's used to remember or calculate. Cha is used to react to other people, and to act on other people. That's initiative.

Let's try this, if you think of the stats as different ways to use your brain:

People using Cha don't hesitate, they seize the opportunity- whatever that is.
People using Int will hesitate while they're taking time- even a little- to calculate or remember.
People using Wis will hesitate- even a little- to make sure that their action is the best one available.

So in that first moment, Cha is the best function to use. After that, it's still a good choice, but it better be tempered by Int and Wis or you'll end up doing really stupid and foolish things.

But Wisdom makes sense too, and can't be quickly dismissed, because it's how well you notice/perceive things, not just judgement. If you spot something first, you can react first. Charisma has nothing to do with any kind of speed.

[Grundy]

But Wisdom makes sense too, and can't be quickly dismissed, because it's how well you notice/perceive things, not just judgement. If you spot something first, you can react first. Charisma has nothing to do with any kind of speed.

There's already a mechanic for wisdom to allow you to perceive things and react to them- the surprise round. You need to know what's going on to participate, and after 3 seconds, pretty much everybody knows something is happening.

[Grindle]

Honestly, this thread is getting increasingly repetitive. People have pretty varied definitions of the main attributes, some of them more closely based on the existing mechanics than others, and arguing about which of them makes the most sense/should be applied to the game mechanics is pointless.

[Plato Play-Doh]

I don't really care how Cha is applied to Init, or really whether it is or not. It's not my table, after all :smallsmile: Applying it with a feat or class feature works for me, or as a basic feature of init works for me too. I just think that the mental stat that best applies to init is Cha, and that the OP has a good idea.
As to Int vs. Cha, a quick plan is not the same thing as an instant reaction.
Int isn't used to interact to people, it's used to remember or calculate. Cha is used to react to other people, and to act on other people. That's initiative.

Let's try this, if you think of the stats as different ways to use your brain:

People using Cha don't hesitate, they seize the opportunity- whatever that is.
People using Int will hesitate while they're taking time- even a little- to calculate or remember.
People using Wis will hesitate- even a little- to make sure that their action is the best one available.

So in that first moment, Cha is the best function to use. After that, it's still a good choice, but it better be tempered by Int and Wis or you'll end up doing really stupid and foolish things.

How does force of personality/likeability make you more decisive? Cha is how well you interact with other people, not how quickly you make decisions. I'd say that's either Int or Wis.

[Yitzi]

As reaction time. Not speed, like calculating 234 x 987, that's Int.

And where do you see that DEX encompasses reaction time?

I'd say the best are either:

1. DEX if you start with a physical action, CHA if you start with a mental action (such as spellcasting), or:
2. WIS, because even with warning, you still need to notice that NOW is the moment to act.

[Seharvepernfan]

CHA is force of personality; how will a forceful personality help you get the jump on someone?

Now, WIS to init I could understand. But CHA?
If you want to make CHA more relevant, a better way would be to use it instead of WIS for Will saves (except maybe against illusions and Enchantment(charm) effects), and then fill in the slack from WIS with being added to initiative.

I second this.

[Jota]

I think it's pretty clear for what has been said thus far that each individual has their own arguments and counterarguments for the addition of X/Y/Z to initiative, but to add something new to the discussion, I would make an argument for BAB.

My basic line of reasoning would be that BAB, representing accrued combat skill, also represents the subjugation of default responses to stimuli, instincts which might be counter-productive to a quick response, which are replaced by reflexive action from significant amounts of training. Muscle memory and the like.

I can't think of a mechanical reason for doing so (adding BAB, not the whole thing, but some derivation thereof, to initiative). It seems the OP was angling for such a change to boost the relevance of Charisma and offer a slight leg-up to Charisma-primary characters, which is fine. The fluff and the mechanics don't necessarily have to match up perfectly if all you're looking for is a more balanced game (not saying I think this makes things more balanced, or less balanced, for that matter, but as a general principle). I just think from the fluff mesh perspective, BAB makes as much sense as anything else.

[Waargh!]

This is a logical fallacy. Even if that was the original meaning of the word, that is not the current meaning in English, and so its original meaning is irrelevant.

I didn't say "original" meaning, I said "literal" meaning. Besides that it is a common meaning of the word. You can look at wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charisma)for example. As a bonus to Diplomacy it makes sense to translate it as the force of your personality. As the ability for Sorcerers to cast a spell it makes more sense to translate it as a "special" gift or talent. For clerics and the ability to turn undead as a divine gift. And so on.

Regardless, the common use of a word doesn't change its literal meaning. If you have a "gifted personality" you are implied to be more persuasive have a personal magnetism or even the ability to lead other people. So the common use is just a more specialized version of the literal meaning.

[Grundy]

How does force of personality/likeability make you more decisive? Cha is how well you interact with other people, not how quickly you make decisions. I'd say that's either Int or Wis.

Cha makes you more decisive because of this, from the SRD:
"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness."

People who have these attributes don't hesitate, they lead. They are decisive. When you hesitate, people hesitate to follow you. When you lead, they follow.

Int:
"Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons."
Wis:
"Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition."

There is some confusion, I think, about definitions. These are the ones relevant to a discussion about dnd, since they are the ones that the game uses.
I get the arguments for wis to init, but there's no reason to apply wis to init twice, which is the effect. First it's used to determine the surprise round, and then it's used to determine an init bonus? That's simply too much. It's place is in the surprise round- determining awareness.
As far as int, while you hopefully learn from combat, int really just doesn't measure reaction time, reflexes, or anything like it.

I'll admit that adding Cha to init strays from the core mechanics, but its the best fit of the mental stats.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

So, my two cents.

INT to init makes no sense, either in terms of mechanics or realism. Mechanically, INT is already a quite useful stat, and doesn't really need anything else piled onto it. Realistically... in the first moments of a fight, people aren't conducting detailed plans, they're panicking. Read descriptions of combat - soldiers, including the most intelligent ones, just aren't able to engage their thought processes until a few moments into the fight. That's why muscle memory is so important, and a lot of the time, it's all they're relying on; higher processes just grind to a halt.

CHA to init... also no. CHA to will saves, I could get behind, as that makes voth mechanical and realistic sense. However, a reaction is not the same as a decision; the reason people hesitate in combat isn't that they're hesitant and indecisive people, it's that they're just overloaded with sensory data, emotions, thoughts, all of that. Being more intelligent or charismatic doesn't help with that - arguably, it hurts, as it just means there's even more traffic crowding your mind.

Realistically, WIS for surprise rounds and DEX for init makes sense, for the reasons everyone has already described - DEX is a matter of precision, coordination, and "Muscle memory" fits better with that than with any of the other stats. Mechanically... not so much. DEX is already an overloaded stay, what with reflex saves and AC being important to almost every character. WIS is a little bit less so, but still at least has one component almost any character will need (Will save.)

[Yitzi]

I think it's pretty clear for what has been said thus far that each individual has their own arguments and counterarguments for the addition of X/Y/Z to initiative, but to add something new to the discussion, I would make an argument for BAB.

My basic line of reasoning would be that BAB, representing accrued combat skill, also represents the subjugation of default responses to stimuli, instincts which might be counter-productive to a quick response, which are replaced by reflexive action from significant amounts of training. Muscle memory and the like.

Except that then rogues aren't high-initiative, which they probably should be. Maybe a better approach is "BAB, but high-Reflex-save classes count as full BAB for that purpose."

[NotScaryBats]

Dunno if its been mentioned, but taking Marshal 1 can give you an always on 60 foot aura that grants cha to initiative (and dex checks and dex based skill checks)

[TuggyNE]

It gives Cha a property for every class, putting it on par with pretty much every other stat. Str affects carrying capacity, Dex AC and Reflex saves, Con HP and Fort saves, Int Skill points, and Wis Will saves. Charisma seems to be left out, only affecting some skill rolls and not much else, unless your class uses Cha.

It doesn't kill you if your Cha isn't great, but makes it less of an obvious dump stat.


Charisma needs something, without a dependent class feature, dumping it has no major penalty, whereas every other stat has more significant problems as a dump-stat.

I felt like highlighting these, as they represent a fairly common attitude among some fix-makers: "X is mechanically weak, therefore let's cobble together some vaguely plausible reason to give it Y and call it good". The problem with that is it solves one problem by introducing another; you have better mechanical balance, but increased fluff-crunch disconnect and more inconsistencies.

The correct way is generally to think a little longer about useful things X could have that actually make sense. Often, this needs to be paired with reducing the mechanical impact of other options, of course.

So, back to the topic at hand, yes, Charisma is a dump stat, and nigh-universal dump stats are bad design. However, the best way to fix this, short of rejiggering all the ability score definitions or taking one out, is probably to rework the things Cha is logically used for and make them more essential or more useful (as well as limiting the abuses). Some specialty abilities may also be useful; certain niche classes might indeed be able to justify Cha to initiative, and others might be able to justify a Cha penalty to enemy initative. Making it universally applicable, though, really doesn't fit, for reasons that the thread has already gone into rather thoroughly.

[Jota]

Except that then rogues aren't high-initiative, which they probably should be. Maybe a better approach is "BAB, but high-Reflex-save classes count as full BAB for that purpose."

Rogues are still Dexterity-based, so they'd have a greater bonus to initiative than a Strength-based character in that regard, and I mentioned later that it doesn't strictly have to be the entirety of the character's BAB. My intent in saying that was to preserve the integrity of random number generation as a viable means of determining who goes first.

If you give out the bonus to Initiative based on X points of BAB, 5 is the most equitable treatment across the various BAB levels but also the one with the least overall impact (2/3/4). 4 favors the high BAB more (2/3/5), 3 favors the middle (3/5/6), relatively speaking, and 2 (5/7/10) screws the middle. 1 to 1 is technically perfectly fair, but it creates gaps as high as 10 on the initiative roll (which already exist based on Dexterity alone (the rogue's 34 or so to the wizards 14ish, perhaps), so the combination makes the Initiative roll a practically foregone conclusion, which isn't ideal. That really only happens at high levels though; the gap is smaller and stays "reasonable" through the first few levels most games are played at.

As I said though, I can't think of a mechanical reason for offering more numbers based on BAB unless you feel the need to reinforce a general notion of "casters act last, fighting men go first." The rule also has knock-ons to monsters, however, if it is universal and not just for players, resulting in even more polarization on the power gradient for creature types. Since type doesn't reflect monster focus (spell casting can be added arbitrarily, for instance), the issues are further compounded in that regard.