[PF] Dimensional Dervish + Whirlwind Attack = ???

[The Grue]

How do these two feats interact? Specifically, at what stage does Whirlwind Attack check to see which and how many opponents are in reach?

I think you can see what I'm thinking of with this question. :smallbiggrin:

[Xerxus]

Actually looks like they interact perfectly. I guess you would just use one square as reference point though, since that's how whirlwind attack usually works (though I was never sure about that five-foot step in the middle of a full attack).

[NightbringerGGZ]

Well, with a normal Whirlwind Attack the assumption is that you're attacking from one spot and hitting everybody in a circle. Dimensional Dervish lets you move after every attack, but you have to move at least 5 feet before and after attacks as well as in between each attack.

My ruling would be that you may Whirlwind attack, but you have to teleport after every attack. This would allow you to change your positioning on the board and hit targets you couldn't initially reach. You would not be able to teleport to Spot A, attack everything in reach, then teleport to Spot B and attack everything in reach again.

Even so, this could be a really nasty damage dealing move.

[MrLemon]

Even so, this could be a really nasty awesome-looking damage dealing move.
FTFY :smallwink:

Since the buildup is 7 feats + 4th-level spellcasting (3rd for summoners) or a 10th(?) level class feature, I wouldn't call it overpowered.

Though technically, assuming a base speed of 60ft., you could ideally hit 24 enemies, with your best attack. Nice :smallbiggrin:

[The Grue]

For bonus points, take levels in a class with Sneak Attack and flank with yourself (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-savant)? :smallbiggrin:

[Answerer]

Those are cool feats, but my god does it require far too many feats to accomplish that.

[Deaxsa]

Those are cool feats, but my god does it require far too many feats to accomplish that.

remember, you get a feat every 2 levels in Pathfinder.

[Answerer]

remember, you get a feat every 2 levels in Pathfinder.
Doesn't change my statement.

[The Grue]

It's absolutely a high-level combo, but the prerequisite feats are all pretty good on their own. I'd say it's definitely worth it, especially for a Rogue or an Assassin that has some way of casting 4th level arcane spells.

[StreamOfTheSky]

That's not true, most of the pre-req feats are mediocre to bad.

And I agree, you would have to 5 ft teleport between each attack, and you could go till you ran out of enemies or teleport distance. It'd be a flashier version of the 3E Dervish PrC's Dervish Dance + WWA combo I did once, basically.

[Certified]

Alright, I'll bite, can we see a build using this interesting combo?

[The Grue]

That's not true, most of the pre-req feats are mediocre to bad.

Combat Expertise: Fight defensively except better
Dodge: Free +1 dodge bonus to AC
Mobility: +4 AC against AoO moving through threatened space
Spring Attack - Get in melee range of an opponent with reach, or re-position around him to flank
Dimensional Agility: Teleport without ending your turn
Dimensional Assault: Cast DD to charge ignoring terrain, reach, obstacles, threatened squares between you and your target, and don't even have to move in a straight line

Which of these specifically are mediocre or outright bad? Spring attack is probably the weakest of the bunch, but still has its uses.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Combat Expertise: Sucks. PA forcing you to take the scaling value is bad enough; at least that's increasing your damage output. CE is the definition of a feat tax.

Dodge: It's mediocre. Not bad, but there's definitely feats I'd rather be picking up.

Mobility: Sucks. Skirmishing in PF is for suckers. If you want to move through threatened squares, use any of the various spells that let you do so w/o provoking 100% of the time.

Spring Attack: Trap feat. Doesn't work with anything pretty much, even Vital Strike line. You do a single weak attack/damage in return for not getting full attacked, either. If you want to be an unthreatening turtle, just strap on a tower shield and call it a day.

Dimensional Agility: Mediocre. So you can teleport up to someone and make a single melee attack (if you can port as a move or swift action, otherwise, this feat is really crap)? You could just move and do that. I guess you can teleport farther and bypass obstacles, but you're still burning a resource to do it, so meh. And is there any difference between "I port next to bad guy and attack him once!" and "I ready an action to attack bad guy when and [I]then port next to him," functionally? Because I can already do the latter w/o needing to spend a feat.

Dimensional Assault: If charging is so troublesome for you, why not just use flight magic? You're teleporting, so you clearly have access to magical abilities.... Seems easier than blowing 2 feats. Mediocre.

[The Grue]

Alright, I'll bite, can we see a build using this interesting combo?

Proof-of-concept skeleton of a build: 13th level Magus (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=520914). Absent skills, equipment, HP rolls, Magus Arcana and two feat slots. Fill in the blanks as per your own discretion, I know very little about the Magus class.

There's also something you could do with a Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster build to abuse the crap out of Dimensional Savant to sneak attack everything, but that requires 1) Another feat, and therefore level 15(less if you use Rogue talents to get some of the Combat feats), 2) More time/effort than I'm prepared to put in tonight :smallbiggrin:


[A rebuttal]

Out of curiosity, what would you consider to be six "good" feats?

[Darius Kane]

Wow. Dimensional Dervish would work great with Teflammar Shadowlord.

[The Grue]

It also works great with the Shadowdancer if your DM houserules that Shadow Jump meets the Dimension Door prerequisite, but YMMV with that one since it's not RAW.

[Certified]

On the subject of Flanking and Sneak Attacking with oneself is there a way to pick up Abundant Step or Dimension Door for a Ninja without a major dip out of the class?

[Occasional Sage]

Out of curiosity, what would you consider to be six "good" feats?

Since the topic is melee, with at least a pinch of casting, I would submit for your consideration Arcane Strike: free to use, limitless additional damage which scales with caster level.

[Chained Birds]

Spring Attack: Trap feat. Doesn't work with anything pretty much, even Vital Strike line. You do a single weak attack/damage in return for not getting full attacked, either. If you want to be an unthreatening turtle, just strap on a tower shield and call it a day.

Can you use the Magus's Spellstrike with Spring Attack to dive in and deal Weapon Damage + 10d6 Shocking Grasp Dmg, then bounce away on the same turn? Or is there a conflict of actions going on here?

[Person_Man]

I would say that it's a poor cost/benefit ratio to use this combo.

For sake of comparison, in the 3.5 world Binder 5 with the Paimon vestige or Swordsage 11 with the Desert Tempest maneuver can pull off the same trick with 0 Feat investment. You can get comparable results from just using an area of effect spell or other ability. I can't think of a whole lot of special triggered effect that requires a melee attack that can't be duplicated with magic (or psionics).

[Zubrowka74]

Kind of like when Nightcrawler gets mind controlled in that first X-men movie.

Have you thought about a 2 level Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden) dip ? Nets you Combat Expertise plus two other feats. It's a classic Dex-based Magus dip.

[Sheogoroth]

I think you can get dimensional door with the Mark of Passage Dragonmark feats.
That's still a ton of feats, though that does free you up to just take fighter levels.

[Certified]

I think you can get dimensional door with the Mark of Passage Dragonmark feats.
That's still a ton of feats, though that does free you up to just take fighter levels.

Are those Pathfinder feats?

[Sheogoroth]

No, they're from Eberron.

[RFLS]

Are those Pathfinder feats?


I think you can get dimensional door with the Mark of Passage Dragonmark feats.
That's still a ton of feats, though that does free you up to just take fighter levels.


No, they're from Eberron.

It's funny because the post was specifically tagged [PF]. -.-

[StreamOfTheSky]

Good melee feats.... Limited to PF material I admit it's not an easy request, especially if you want things w/ similar pre-reqs. That said...

Power Attack / Piranha Strike
Extra Rage Power / Extra Discovery / other class-based feats like them
Step Up
Enforcer*
Roll With It
Dervish Dance
Eldritch Heritage line of feats (familiars are awesome; or get Orc bloodline for Str boost or Marid for unlimited use AoE ranged attack w/ blindness debuff at level 11)
Sap Adept and Sap Master
Crane Wing (yeah, it also has bad pre-reqs)
Lunge
Cornugon Smash*
Dreadful Carnage*
Dazing Assault

*Obviously, you'd not want all of these on the same PC, it'd be redundant


Can you use the Magus's Spellstrike with Spring Attack to dive in and deal Weapon Damage + 10d6 Shocking Grasp Dmg, then bounce away on the same turn? Or is there a conflict of actions going on here?

At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks.

You could spend a round casting the spell, hold the charge, then next round deliver it via an attack with Spring Attack, which is technically using spell combat. But that's a horrible waste of actions and I assume nt what you were after. If you were hoping to cast a spell, spring attack, and attack with it all in the same round....you're out of luck. Spring Attack is a full round action that lets you move and take an attack action between the movement. That offers no room for you to cast the spell. Unless it's swift/quickened, of course.

[AttilaTheGeek]

There's also something you could do with a Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster build to abuse the crap out of Dimensional Savant to sneak attack everything, but that requires 1) Another feat, and therefore level 15(less if you use Rogue talents to get some of the Combat feats), 2) More time/effort than I'm prepared to put in tonight :smallbiggrin:

I actually did this once. I believe the build went something like this:

Rogue (Knife Master) 1 / Assassin 1 / Magus (Spellblade) 4/ Arcane Trickster 10/ Fighter (archetype?) 3 / Magus 1

With the Dimensional Savant feat, I'd make six attacks in a round (+11/+6/+1 BAB, with a dagger in each hand), at 8d8 sneak attack each. It was also fun to teleport around the battlefield. The only downside was that it failed spectacularly when we fought a gelatinous cube. :smallfrown:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Shadowdancer is actually horrible for Dimensional Dervish, IMO. You have an extremely limited daily range you can teleport, versus 400 + 40 ft/level per cast for anyone else.

I think the best option if you don't want to be a caster is Horizon Walker 3 level dip. You get Dim Door as a SLA 3 + wis mod times per day. I think with some wis prioritization and a headband of wis +2/4/6, you can easily get enough uses per day to suit your needs.

And you only need to dip the class, whereas w/ shadowdancer you'd need every level to increase the daily range limit.

[Certified]

Alright, here is a bare bones Ninja 14 Horizon Walker 3 Build. (Note: That's Ninja 7, then 3 levels of Walker then back to Ninja.) Please let me know if this is valid or if the Combat Trick was over used.

Human Chaotic Flexible Ninja 7 Horizon Walker 3 Ninja 7

Str 10
Dex 21
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 11
Cha 15

HP (14d8+14+3d10+3)
Ini +5
BAB +13/+8

Fort 7 6 1
Ref 15 10 5
Will 5 5 0

Primary: +1 Agile Dagger +16/+11 (1d4+12/19-20)
Off Hand: +1 Agile Dagger +16/+11 (1d4+9/19-20)

Special: Dimensional Whirlwind +16 (1d4+12/19-20) Strikes all Targets within 60', or 100' Cost: 1 Ki Point

Feats
Combat Expertise (1st - Human)
Dodge (1st)
Weapon Finesse (2nd - Ninja Trick - Rogue Talent - Combat Trick)
Mobility (3rd)
Two Weapon Fighting (4th - Ninja Trick - Rogue Talent - Combat Trick)
Piranha Strike (5th)
Spring Attack (6th - Ninja Trick - Rogue Talent - Combat Trick)
Whirlwind Attack (7th)
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (9th)
Dimensional Agility (11th)
Dimensional Assault (13th)
Dimensional Dervish (15th)
Dimensional Savant (17th)


Class Abilities
Sneak attack +7d6
Ki Pool (Su): 9
No Trace (Ex)
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) (Improved)
Light Steps (Ex)

2 Remaining Ninja Tricks
2 Remaining Master Ninja Tricks

Favored Terrain: Astral Plane
Terrain Mastery: Astral Plane
Terrain Dominance: Astral Plane: The horizon walker gains a +1 competence bonus on attack and damage rolls against outsiders. He gains dimension door as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + the character's Wisdom modifier (caster level equal to the character's level).

[RFLS]

Alright, here is a bare bones Ninja 14 Horizon Walker 3 Build. (Note: That's Ninja 7, then 3 levels of Walker then back to Ninja.) Please let me know if this is valid or if the Combat Trick was over used.

You can only select a ninja trick once unless it specifies otherwise.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's worth noting Weapon Finesse *is* its own rogue talent, Finesse Rogue.

Now, for your Ninja build RFLS is correct. A Ninja cannot select Combat Trick more than once. Note however, that by RAW a Rogue *can* select Combat Trick as a rogue talent and then again as a ninja trick because the rogue's "grab from the other class" ability has different wording.

Ninja Trick (Ex)

Benefit: A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool.

Special: A rogue can pick this talent more than once.

Rogue Talent: The ninja can select a rogue talent in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja can select this talent multiple times.

In fact, I think Rogue can REPEATEDLY take Ninja Trick to gain more Combat Tricks if he wants. Paizo kinda sucks at writing coherent and uniform rules.

[RFLS]

It's worth noting Weapon Finesse *is* its own rogue talent, Finesse Rogue.

Now, for your Ninja build RFLS is correct. A Ninja cannot select Combat Trick more than once. Note however, that by RAW a Rogue *can* select Combat Trick as a rogue talent and then again as a ninja trick because the rogue's "grab from the other class" ability has different wording.

Ninja Trick (Ex)

Benefit: A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool.

Special: A rogue can pick this talent more than once.

Rogue Talent: The ninja can select a rogue talent in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja can select this talent multiple times.

In fact, I think Rogue can REPEATEDLY take Ninja Trick to gain more Combat Tricks if he wants. Paizo kinda sucks at writing coherent and uniform rules.

Huh. I'd actually missed that rogues can pull that particular bit of shenaniganry. *files away under "melee goodies"*

[RndmNumGen]

Wouldn't this line disqualify using Dimensional Dervish + Whirlwind, though?


When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

[RFLS]

Wouldn't this line disqualify using Dimensional Dervish + Whirlwind, though?

No, it wouldn't- the bonus referred to is a numerical bonus to the attack roll.

[Darius Kane]

No, it wouldn't- the bonus referred to is a numerical bonus to the attack roll.
Um, no, it says bonus or extra attacks.

[Certified]

It's worth noting Weapon Finesse *is* its own rogue talent, Finesse Rogue.

Now, for your Ninja build RFLS is correct. A Ninja cannot select Combat Trick more than once. Note however, that by RAW a Rogue *can* select Combat Trick as a rogue talent and then again as a ninja trick because the rogue's "grab from the other class" ability has different wording.

Ninja Trick (Ex)

Benefit: A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool.

Special: A rogue can pick this talent more than once.

Rogue Talent: The ninja can select a rogue talent in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja can select this talent multiple times.

In fact, I think Rogue can REPEATEDLY take Ninja Trick to gain more Combat Tricks if he wants. Paizo kinda sucks at writing coherent and uniform rules.

Okay, so layering in a level of Fighter seems to resolve the issue without relying on the looping trick . Additionally, with the use of an Advanced Talent the build comes in at 15th Level.

Human Chaotic Flexible Ninja 6 Fighter 1 Horizon Walker 3 Ninja 5

Str 10
Dex 21
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 11
Cha 15

HP 95 (11d8+11+1d10+1+3d10+3)
Ini +5
BAB +12/+7

Fort 9 8 1
Ref 14 9 5
Will 5 5 0

Primary: +1 Agile Dagger +16/+11 (1d4+12/19-20)
Off Hand: +1 Agile Dagger +16/+11 (1d4+9/19-20)

Special: Dimensional Whirlwind +15 (1d4+12/19-20) Strikes all Targets

within 60', or 100' Cost: 1 Ki Point

Feats
Combat Expertise (1st - Human)
Dodge (1st)
Weapon Finesse (2nd - Ninja Trick - Rogue Talent - Finesse Rogue
Mobility (3rd)
Two Weapon Fighting (4th - Ninja Trick - Rogue Talent - Combat Trick)
Piranha Strike (5th)
Weapon Focus: Dagger (6th - Ninja Trick - Weapon Training)
Spring Attack (7th - Fighter Bonus Feat)
Whirlwind Attack (7th)
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (9th)
Dimensional Agility (11th)
Dimensional Assault (13th)
Dimensional Dervish (14th - Master Trick - Feat)
Dimensional Savant (15th)

Class Abilities
Sneak attack +6d6
Ki Pool (Su): 9
No Trace (Ex)
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) (Improved)
Light Steps (Ex)

1 Remaining Ninja Tricks

Favored Terrain: Astral Plane
Terrain Mastery: Astral Plane
Terrain Dominance: Astral Plane: The horizon walker gains a +1 competence
bonus on attack and damage rolls against outsiders. He gains dimension
door as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + the character's Wisdom modifier (caster level equal to the character's level).

[AttilaTheGeek]

If you dip a level of rogue for the Knife Master archetype, it raises your sneak attack with daggers, kukris, and the like from d6s to d8s.

[Certified]

If you dip a level of rogue for the Knife Master archetype, it raises your sneak attack with daggers, kukris, and the like from d6s to d8s.

As the Ninja is an Alternate Rogue Class, is it possible to take the Knife Master Archetype with it?

[AttilaTheGeek]

As the Ninja is an Alternate Rogue Class, is it possible to take the Knife Master Archetype with it?

I don't believe so, because Knife Master replaces Trapfinding, which the Ninja doesn't have.

[Certified]

I don't believe so, because Knife Master replaces Trapfinding, which the Ninja doesn't have.

With that said, I don't think it would be in the spirit of the rules to do a 1 level dip into Rogue for Knife Master. The build works equally as well for both versions of the class so I would say, go with Ninja for a larger range, and go with Rogue for higher damage.

[RFLS]

Um, no, it says bonus or extra attacks.

What extra attacks are you getting that you wouldn't normally get, besides those directly from whirlwind attack?

[Darius Kane]

What extra attacks are you getting that you wouldn't normally get, besides those directly from whirlwind attack?
Why... are you asking me this? :smallconfused:

[RFLS]

Why... are you asking me this? :smallconfused:

Because it's the deciding factor? You're not getting any extra attacks or any bonus to your attacks that is NOT granted by Whirlwind Attack.

[Darius Kane]

I... didn't say you do. :smallconfused: I only corrected you that it says bonus or extra attacks, not bonus to attack rolls.

[RFLS]

I... didn't say you do. :smallconfused:

*goes back and rereads* Oh >.< You were clarifying what the bonus was, not saying it doesn't work, huh? My apologies; I wasn't reading clearly.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, Dim Dervish isn't giving you any extra attacks. It just happens to put you next to a lot more enemies than you probably would have been without it.

As for Ninja, of course it's not RAW, but I think Poison Use and No Trace are close enough in power (and follow identical level progressions/gain) that they should be swappable as if they were Trapfinding and Trapsense. Especially since by being a weird classification "alternate class," ninja is locked out from dipping rogue, and due to being a core class vs. splat book variant, every single available archetype was written for the rogue and w/ the rogue in mind.
If your DM is reasonable and open to tweaking things.

Certified: I'm not sure why exactly you want to use Ninja in your build, can you explain why? What synergy it is providing?

Ninja is the most MAD class in the game and wis (which you'll need for Dim Door uses) is at best 4th on a ninja's priority list while the most common dump stat in the game is their 2nd most important stat. The tricks are better than rogue talents, yes. But that's mostly due to rogue talents sucking, not the tricks being amazing.

Have you considered a build that dips Rogue for up to 4 levels (lets you nab 2 feats, use rogue archetypes, and bail before you take another BAB hit), does the HW for 3 levels, and all the rest in (Mindchemist? or Internal Alchemist) Vivisectionist Alchemist? Discoveries are powerful, can give you extra limbs, and if you go the natural weapons route (feral mutagen, or nat weapons from race, or both), you can buy an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists for 4k or 5k (it doesn't need to be +1 first, that is the ONLY advantage of AoMF) and for one low price get dex to damage on all attacks.

Just a thought.

Also, consider Half-Orc for any HW build. You can swap Ferocity for the Endurance feat. So then it's basically +1 skill point/level vs. every other half-orc feature in terms of benefits comparison. Half-Orc also opens up doors, like the Tusked (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Tusked) trait, though I guess Adopted would let anyone get it, DM is probably less likely to smack you if you're actually part orc. In any case, I never play a sneak attacker w/o darkvision. Being worthless in a dark alley is kinda stupid for a rogue.

[Certified]

Yeah, Dim Dervish isn't giving you any extra attacks. It just happens to put you next to a lot more enemies than you probably would have been without it.

As for Ninja, of course it's not RAW, but I think Poison Use and No Trace are close enough in power (and follow identical level progressions/gain) that they should be swappable as if they were Trapfinding and Trapsense. Especially since by being a weird classification "alternate class," ninja is locked out from dipping rogue, and due to being a core class vs. splat book variant, every single available archetype was written for the rogue and w/ the rogue in mind.
If your DM is reasonable and open to tweaking things.

Ninja V Rogue: Sticking to RAW this gives us a fun trade off, the Ninja has a potentially larger range to strike in whilst the Rogue has a higher average damage per strike. This being 100'/60' and 6d6/6d8 respectively. While the added damage is only 6 points on average I think it is better to keep them mutually exclusive.

[Xerxus]

Sniper Goggles anyone?