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Binks
2013-02-20, 04:57 PM
Hey all. My current campaign is drawing to a close soon and, as is my custom, I've begun thinking about what to run next. I usually like to develop 3 or 4 ideas and then see which one my players want to do next and I've hit a bit of a snag. I've been getting a lot of player feedback that they'll miss these characters and how they'd like to continue their story. A perfectly reasonable thing to want...except they'll be hitting level 30 (and then becoming gods if all goes well) by the finale.

I have no interest in trying to balance a post-30 4E campaign as finding challenges in the system is hard enough as is at level 30 but the idea intrigues me too much to pass up without at least trying to make it work. I already have some ideas as to a story for divinely powered characters, but before I could propose this as a possibility I would need a rule system that can handle that kind of play.

What I'm looking for is suggestions for a system that can:
A) Handle PCs that are limited gods, starting out from around demigod level power and going all the way up to being on-par with a major deity like Pelor or the like. Or, to use less D&D terminology, a system that can handle powers from, say, comic book Thor level (very very powerful but still challenge-able by mortals) to old style Zeus/Odin level (ridiculously powerful and only really challenge-able by others in their weight range)
B) Ideally uses dice, though diceless is not out of the question. I have 2 gamers in my party who are dice fanatics so diceless is probably not going to go over as well as a dice based game, but if there's a diceless system that is absolutely perfect for this and no dice based ones that get close then that's fine
C) Has a decent set of rules. I know handling that level of power can often get pretty GM-fiat-y at times but I prefer systems where the outcome can be looked up to ones that require it to be made up every time.

I've looked into a few options, Scion, Exalted, Nobilis, but I'm not familiar enough with any of them to judge if they can handle this kind of gameplay.

I'm ideally looking for something as close to the mechanics/gameplay feel of D&D, but with an entirely different scale of play.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

Rhynn
2013-02-20, 05:37 PM
D&D Set 5 Immortals rules (TSR 1017).

Ahahaha. No, that stuff was horrible.

You could, conceivably, take a page from the Set 4 Master Rules, where almost all paths to godhood required multiple rebirths at level 1 with different stipulations, and generally getting back up to level 30 or 36 or whatever (I forget the specifics). As many as three times, at least. During these rebirths, you'd have to do something like create an empire that lasts X generations, create a new way of thinking, and so on - I think some goals were abstract, some concrete.

If your players don't mind playing the whole 1-30 thing again (well, maybe 1-20 is more appropriate so that their reincarnations don't finish their own epic destinies?), it could work out. They'd still be pursuing the same goals in the same world.

I'm not very familiar with Nobilis, but that might work? Maybe somebody with experience can weigh in on that.

Jallorn
2013-02-20, 06:13 PM
Mutants and Masterminds, hands down. Thor is around PL 13 or so, I think (although only DC characters have ever had official stat ups) and it goes up to 20 (and could theoretically be increased further, but...)

Despite the system's base, it actually does really well modeling practically anything more powerful than the real world, even if it's not a super hero setting. That said, combat does feel different, with attacks not being nearly as immediately lethal.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-02-20, 06:33 PM
Mutants and Masterminds, hands down. Thor is around PL 13 or so, I think (although only DC characters have ever had official stat ups) and it goes up to 20 (and could theoretically be increased further, but...)

Despite the system's base, it actually does really well modeling practically anything more powerful than the real world, even if it's not a super hero setting. That said, combat does feel different, with attacks not being nearly as immediately lethal.

I'd put Thor higher than 13, but while power level tracks acceptably well to combat power, it doesn't always translate very well to out-of-combat power-- you can make a PL 12 martial artist who doesn't really do anything a human can't, and a PL 8 character who can circle the world in a round, permanently transmute matter, or lift an aircraft carrier.

That being said, M&M is a pretty great system, and the combat-vs-apparent PL issue does mean that you can put Batman, Flash, and Wonder Woman on the same team without anyone feeling overshadowed. It's also d20 based, so there's a fair amount of familiarity coming from D&D. Most of the complexity comes in character building-- once you get used to the system, you can model even some pretty weird powers effectively, but it takes a while before doing so becomes intuitive.

Jallorn
2013-02-20, 08:34 PM
Also a fair warning: It's pretty easy to break. But if your characters' powers are already well defined, that should be less of a problem. I find it's a system that generates a, "Don't be a jerk," feeling because of just how easy it is to break sometimes.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-02-20, 08:54 PM
Also a fair warning: It's pretty easy to break. But if your characters' powers are already well defined, that should be less of a problem. I find it's a system that generates a, "Don't be a jerk," feeling because of just how easy it is to break sometimes.

It's broken on a very different level than D&D, mind you. Broken in D&D gives you arbitrary amounts of damage, irresistible mind control, and complete immunity from harm, and requires the DM to either resort to similar optimization or lobbing books. Broken in M&M gives you save-or-be-taken-out-of-action (attack teleport/dimension travel on targets without that ability themselves). It sometimes requires a mental shift to get used to characters who can search a city in five minutes, walk through walls and read minds, but it works fine once you do.

Jallorn
2013-02-20, 09:02 PM
It's broken on a very different level than D&D, mind you. Broken in D&D gives you arbitrary amounts of damage, irresistible mind control, and complete immunity from harm, and requires the DM to either resort to similar optimization or lobbing books. Broken in M&M gives you save-or-be-taken-out-of-action (attack teleport/dimension travel on targets without that ability themselves). It sometimes requires a mental shift to get used to characters who can search a city in five minutes, walk through walls and read minds, but it works fine once you do.

This is true. There are also certain options that allow you to radically increase your power level if you play with it, but those also often come with fairly exploitable weaknesses, like the full round action it takes to assume your Alternate Form, or the ability of an enemy to turn your Device against you.

That said, Metamorph from 2e of MnM was simply totally broken, being even more adaptable than a DnD 3.5 Wizard.

#e is quite a bit more balanced, though I'll admit to not being sure if it's as adaptable as 2e.

SowZ
2013-02-20, 09:45 PM
Would exalted work?

Grod_The_Giant
2013-02-20, 10:55 PM
This is true. There are also certain options that allow you to radically increase your power level if you play with it, but those also often come with fairly exploitable weaknesses, like the full round action it takes to assume your Alternate Form, or the ability of an enemy to turn your Device against you.

That said, Metamorph from 2e of MnM was simply totally broken, being even more adaptable than a DnD 3.5 Wizard.

#e is quite a bit more balanced, though I'll admit to not being sure if it's as adaptable as 2e.
Ah, I think we were talking about different editions there-- I've only played 3e. While it lacks 2e's splatbook support, I, at least, have never had a problem making it do whatever I wanted it to do.


Would exalted work?
If Exalted worked as a game, it would work in this context. But while the fluff is amazing, I've had... bad experiences trying to make the system work. It's incredibly clunky in-combat, and pretty much requires an enormous errata document to play.

Curiously, I have a pertinent answer to both the quoted posts... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14044941#post14044941)

Binks
2013-02-21, 09:25 AM
If your players don't mind playing the whole 1-30 thing again...
I don't think that would go over too well. Good idea, but probably not a good fit for this group/game.


Mutants and Masterminds, hands down.
That's...a very interesting idea. I hadn't even considered M&M. We have played 3E in the past and it's gotten some mixed reviews from people but overall we've had a good time with it, so that might be an option. I personally would prefer a system I haven't played before but this could work.


If Exalted worked as a game, it would work in this context.
I've never tried Exalted, only heard about it. Not a big fan of clunky game systems, so I'll steer away from that one.

Thanks for all the responses. I'm still looking into the possibilities, always nice to start looking a while before you need to have everything set in stone so you can take your time. Killing 1 possibility and adding another, familiar, one should help my search out quite a bit.

eepop
2013-02-21, 11:17 AM
Find some indie game about courtroom drama (there's an indie game for everything right? if not, freeform discussion is probably fine)

Then refluff it as the court of the gods, and play several sessions of the players going through the bureaucratic process of getting their respective domains. These should include some concepts, lands, and worshippers. Have them meet a handful of other new gods that will be taking over other parts of the portfolio.

Now switch gears entirely, and move into a freeform board game.

Make a "scoreboard" that shows various metrics like number of worshipers, acres of land, etc.

Make a list of everything that could go wrong for a group of people (nothing is too absurd or difficult), and randomly roll each session to see what is befalling each of their peoples.

Leave it up to them to find a way to solve each problem. A god can not enter another god's territory unless invited.

In the beginning they will probably be very hands on in solving problems, but be sure to give them complications for those things.
If my god solves all my problems for me, why bother working? After all farmers stop farming, they now have to deal with a food shortage. etc
If they get the other players to help them, like having the wizard player solve the issue, maybe some of the first character's worshipers convert over to worshiping the wizard.

Make a list of godly acts that are beyond their ability to do currently, like pushing the evolution of their worshipers a certain direction, changing the terrain, etc. Give them these as rewards periodically. At the same time, be letting the other gods do things like spawning awful creatures, creating diseases, etc.

If a major conflict ever brews up between two of the characters, stop the game and start a new campaign set in the world they've made.

Geostationary
2013-02-22, 01:59 AM
I'm not very familiar with Nobilis, but that might work? Maybe somebody with experience can weigh in on that.
Nobilis could certainly work, but while the system is solid it has at its core several assumptions orthogonal to your typical D&D game. No reason not to check it out though!

What I'm looking for is suggestions for a system that can:
A) Handle PCs that are limited gods, starting out from around demigod level power and going all the way up to being on-par with a major deity like Pelor or the like. Or, to use less D&D terminology, a system that can handle powers from, say, comic book Thor level (very very powerful but still challenge-able by mortals) to old style Zeus/Odin level (ridiculously powerful and only really challenge-able by others in their weight range)

Nobilis can do this, but you'll need to understand how things scale in the system- your typical Noble built on 25 character points (the default) can totally start the game with the power to make the heart of every being in the multiverse explode simultaneously; if they really want to, they can do so as a free action as much as they want (build it as a gift). Lower power play is entirely possible, but you need to keep in mind that power scales relatively fast, and is largely proportional to your players' capacity to think of fiendish uses for their Estate (thing they have control over, their portfolio. While you can have more than one, it gets very expensive fast unless you're an Imperator, but more on those later). The other thing to ask is how you build gods- like Nobles/Excrucians, i.e. with more character points, or as Imperators- they start with maybe 9cp, but get Immortal; five Divine wound levels (everyone else gets 2); the power to speak Imperial Miracles; and gifts, Bonds, Afflictions, and mortal skills to taste. Nobles get more cool powers, but Imperators get more defensive heft and the power to declare miracles that are only resolvable by plot.



B) Ideally uses dice, though diceless is not out of the question. I have 2 gamers in my party who are dice fanatics so diceless is probably not going to go over as well as a dice based game, but if there's a diceless system that is absolutely perfect for this and no dice based ones that get close then that's fine
Totes diceless. Solid system that may take a bit to wrap your head around, but diceless. It's a blind bidding system, and miraculous combat is basically a fight for narrative control over what's going on.



C) Has a decent set of rules. I know handling that level of power can often get pretty GM-fiat-y at times but I prefer systems where the outcome can be looked up to ones that require it to be made up every time.

I've looked into a few options, Scion, Exalted, Nobilis, but I'm not familiar enough with any of them to judge if they can handle this kind of gameplay.

I'm ideally looking for something as close to the mechanics/gameplay feel of D&D, but with an entirely different scale of play.

This is where you may have problems. On one hand, the system is solid, based on blind bidding with a resource (Miracle Points) and comparing static Attributes. Conflict resolution is pretty clear-cut, but you'll need to figure out how the miracles translate into 'things happening'. It has as much scale as you want it too, and probably more.

But it's also very different from D&D. Killing people is hard and often less productive than you'd realize. Health levels are backwards to what people expect (you can only kill someone by filling their highest level and working down). There is no mechanical difference between a sword to the chest and a sicknasty burn that will resound across the ages. There's no power level difference between a caster and a physical person beyond what they can specifically do, as it's all Miracles (Domain Noble can make a bridge to the moon. Aspect Noble just says "screw that", and jumps). Tactical combat is not really a thing, and the action economy is 1)very simple and 2)cannot be toyed with, else tentacled perversions born from your pride consume you/the GM tells you to cut that sh*t out (actual rule, by the way). Even at the heights of cosmic power, those below can be a huge pain in your side, even if they don't kill you.

So, check it out. It's a great system, but I'm not sure it's at all what you're looking for, especially if you're looking for something that emulates D&D to any appreciable extent.

...Now that I think on it, have you considered FATE?

Ashdate
2013-02-22, 02:44 AM
This might be an awkward idea (depending on how your players build their characters), but one option might be to simply do the work so they can continue playing 4e. If you've played it to level 30, then you clearly have a system that works well enough for you and your players; adapting it to "level 31" would save learning a new system, as well as translation issues from going from one system to the next.

The very basics of 4e could easily continue to scale; hit points, defenses, skill bonuses, feats etc. could continue to go up or be added as normal, and there's no reason why a "+7" magical item couldn't be created (or a +8...), particularly since wealth is probably near meaningless. Monster math would continue working fine as well, although obviously you'd need to create everything.

The biggest problem is new powers, of which I could offer two potential solutions.

The first is to begin allowing the players to "pick and choose" new powers from other classes, as long as they share the same power source. As an example, a Warden (primal power source) could pick up new encounter/daily powers from the Barbarian, Druid, Seeker, or other lists. This lets them have "new" toys if they desire. Perhaps they can take a new Paragon Path at level 41, and a new Epic Destiny at 51.

The second, more complicated option, is to start "adding" a new level one character onto their old level 30 one. Depending on how complicated they wish their character sheets to be, they would get added class features (plus access to new powers/feats) without losing anything their level 30 self had. Perhaps in the effort of simplicity, they only get a single AEDU power of their "new" class, unless they swap out one of their older AEDU powers from their "old" class. You could discuss this with the players. As above, a second Paragon Path and Epic Destiny would be easily added.

Again, I don't know how practical this option is, but I was wondering if you thought of it.

Binks
2013-02-22, 10:24 AM
Then refluff it as the court of the gods...
Interesting idea. Not sure if it gels with the way I was planning to take the story, but definitely doable. Main worry here is the switching rulesystems while playing and lack of a real character sheet (more freeform) as I know my players like having specific character sheets. Probably going to stick with M&M or Nobilis for my two core ideas for now but if neither works this would be a good fallback.


Nobilis could certainly work, but while the system is solid it has at its core several assumptions orthogonal to your typical D&D game...
Thank you for the analysis of Nobilis. Right now it's looking like either that or M&M are the best ways to handle this. I'm not 100% committed to the 'must be like D&D' thing, just that this game will be coming out of a previous D&D game, so at least some similarity is required. Thankfully I already have a 'tier' system of divinity in my campaign, greater and lesser deities so that can probably translate over pretty well as Imperiators and Nobles (with the players starting as Nobles and likely ending as Imperiators). Dice is probably the smallest concern of the big 3, so that can be worked around as the system sounds to be well equipped to handle the power levels I'm looking for and fits most of my other criteria. I'll definitely check it out.


...Now that I think on it, have you considered FATE?
I'm not super familiar with FATE, but I do know that at least 3 people in our group (myself included) have had bad experiences with a FATE based game (Dresdon RPG). From what I've heard/learned its very GM-resolution dependent (even more so than Nobilis), with a few dice rolls to determine advantage and the like. Do you think it would be good for this sort of thing? I can probably get around any opposition if it's a good system for this, but it would be a bit harder to convince my players of than the other options I think. I have very minimal knowledge of the system, however.


This might be an awkward idea (depending on how your players build their characters)...
Not a bad idea but I'm probably not going to go that way. As much fun as 4E is it is already incredibly unbalanced at the level we're at (I've been pseudo-forced to make the last boss as true immortal, unkillable by the players, just so they can have a proper boss fight) and I fear what could happen beyond level 30. Personally my opinion on it is that it's a great system but it's not flexible enough to permit this kind of tampering with. I kind of want to have a clear 'you were men, now you are gods' separation in the campaigns which I believe a switch to a different system would help facilitate. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I'm taking a look at Nobilis and M&M (specifically Nobilis 2E and M&M 3E as I own M&M 3E and can easily get my hands on a copy of Nobilis 2E to browse before I decide on it). Still open to new suggestions if anyone has any, as the campaign is a ways in the future. Thanks.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-02-22, 12:37 PM
I'm not super familiar with FATE, but I do know that at least 3 people in our group (myself included) have had bad experiences with a FATE based game (Dresdon RPG). From what I've heard/learned its very GM-resolution dependent (even more so than Nobilis), with a few dice rolls to determine advantage and the like. Do you think it would be good for this sort of thing? I can probably get around any opposition if it's a good system for this, but it would be a bit harder to convince my players of than the other options I think. I have very minimal knowledge of the system, however.

I don't think so... the default game isn't really set up for godlike power levels, so you'd have to rewrite all the benchmarks and stuff.

Geostationary
2013-02-22, 05:19 PM
Thank you for the analysis of Nobilis. Right now it's looking like either that or M&M are the best ways to handle this. I'm not 100% committed to the 'must be like D&D' thing, just that this game will be coming out of a previous D&D game, so at least some similarity is required. Thankfully I already have a 'tier' system of divinity in my campaign, greater and lesser deities so that can probably translate over pretty well as Imperiators and Nobles (with the players starting as Nobles and likely ending as Imperiators). Dice is probably the smallest concern of the big 3, so that can be worked around as the system sounds to be well equipped to handle the power levels I'm looking for and fits most of my other criteria. I'll definitely check it out.

...

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I'm taking a look at Nobilis and M&M (specifically Nobilis 2E and M&M 3E as I own M&M 3E and can easily get my hands on a copy of Nobilis 2E to browse before I decide on it). Still open to new suggestions if anyone has any, as the campaign is a ways in the future. Thanks.

So, edition is rather important in this instance. Might I ask why you're looking at 2e?

I ask, as there are big differences in the attributes between 2&3e, and Imperator mechanics are different in each. Of the two, I'd say 3e is the better, but that's my opinion.

In 2e, the attributes are Aspect, Domain, Realm, and Spirit. Aspect is physical/mental acts, Domain deals with the substance of your Estate, Realm is like Domain (everything) albeit limited to the interior of your Chancel, and Spirit determines your defenses and some other stuff, but nothing much beyond that. Imperators are built on 60-90 character points, but Imperial Miracles are not really defined mechanically. It works fine but it may have more focus on the Chancels (think divine pocket dimension), and Domain has a few strange limitations such as not technically being capable of turning things into other things (such as the Power of Frogs being unable to turn you into a frog).

3e ditches Realm and Spirit for Persona and Treasure. Persona deals with the meaning of your Estate (Domain sets you on fire; Persona makes you like fire) and increases some of your defensive potential, while Treasure deals with your divine panoply and swag- this is where you use your sword that sunders the earth and whatnot. You can still get a Realm-analogue, but it's bought as a Secondary Estate. Also, the effects of Miracles at different levels have been changed/adjusted somewhat. Imperators are weaker in terms of cp (~9, as compared to the starting Noble's 25), but they get more health, free immortality, and other stats to taste; additionally, Imperial Miracles have mechanical heft. You can obviously still choose to build your high-tier gods more along the lines of Nobles with buckets of cp or Excrucians, but it may take a bit more fiddling than doing things vanilla. I'd suggest 3e over 2e as the system supports more what I think you're aiming at, and is generally more flexible compared to 2e. It's also easier to come by miracle points in 3e, and the Bond/Affliction system works better in my opinion than Bonds and Affiliations in 2e.

That's my two cents, and hopefully it made sense. 2e is still a good resource, I'd just recommend the newer edition's system.

Binks
2013-02-25, 11:56 AM
So, edition is rather important in this instance. Might I ask why you're looking at 2e?
Primarily because I can easily get my hands on a copy of 2E for evaluating it (one of my friends, not in this gaming group, has the coffee table book buried somewhere, I skimmed it years ago at his place) but I haven't found how I can get a paper version of the 3E rules yet (Amazon only seems to have the Kindle version, and google has yet to point me to a paper version). I'm a bit of a luddite when it comes to books, I much prefer paper to digital, and as best I was aware 2E and 3E didn't different notably enough to make a big difference.

It sounds like the differences are enough to make getting my hands on 3E worthwhile instead of just trying to use 2E, so I'll be looking into that for the time being. The whole Realm/Chancery thing was turning out to be a bit of a problem so the idea of ditching it for Persona and Treasure (and I know my PCs have plenty of items they want as treasure) sounds good.

neonchameleon
2013-02-25, 12:45 PM
I'd say Mutants and Masterminds is on the right lines (a supers system), but would far rather go with Marvel Heroic; here's a write-up of one such conversion (http://critical-hits.com/2012/10/04/epic-changes-converting-from-pathfinder-to-marvel-heroic-roleplaying/).

Geostationary
2013-02-25, 02:40 PM
Getting a hold of a physical copy can be difficult, as you have to get it through third parties, such as Amazon or Ebay (which is how I got mine). The publisher seems to have only made the initial print run and now sells it in pdf & ebook format on drivethrurpg, but not the physical copy. If worst comes to worst, I've found some cheat sheets that distill most the rules down to two pages for quick reference, so that may appease your paper luddite ways should you be so inclined. As a point for the pdf, it does have very good bookmarking, and all versions of the book have an excellent index.