Template Question

[gurgleflep]

Okay, I know that the Half-Dragon template can't be added to a mind flayer due to the illithids "birthing" process, or whatever it's called. This is where my question lies, that's not possible, but could the Half-Illithid template be added to a Dragonborn? The Tadpole could be placed in the dragonborns head/ear.

This is just a question based on pure curiosity.

[Aegis013]

I believe the answer is no due to the types of the templates they are respectively. According to the SRD, inherited templates are with the creature since the beginning of their existence. Half-Illithid is an inherited template. So in order to try to have both, you need to be a Half-Illithid and then undergo the Rite of Rebirth to be a Dragonborn, which is an acquired template, which the SRD says are gainable at any time through whatever means.

Since Dragonborn wipes out just about everything you had previously, I don't think you could keep (edit: most of) the benefits of Half-Illithid after becoming a Dragonborn.

[Xenogears]

I believe the answer is no due to the types of the templates they are respectively. According to the SRD, inherited templates are with the creature since the beginning of their existence. Half-Illithid is an inherited template. So in order to try to have both, you need to be a Half-Illithid and then undergo the Rite of Rebirth to be a Dragonborn, which is an acquired template, which the SRD says are gainable at any time through whatever means.

Since Dragonborn wipes out just about everything you had previously, I don't think you could keep (edit: most of) the benefits of Half-Illithid after becoming a Dragonborn.

Well in the half-illithid template it explains how illithids make more illithids. Basically they put a brain worm thingy into a humans skull and they get turned into an illithid. If they put the brain worm thingy into another creatures skull they turn into a half-illithid instead.

So it "should" actually work but it would probably piss Bahamut off and he might be able to take the dragonborn powers away.

[Aegis013]

Well in the half-illithid template it explains how illithids make more illithids. Basically they put a brain worm thingy into a humans skull and they get turned into an illithid. If they put the brain worm thingy into another creatures skull they turn into a half-illithid instead.

So it "should" actually work but it would probably piss Bahamut off and he might be able to take the dragonborn powers away.

Their spawning method is also covered...in gruesome detail...in Lords of Madness. This doesn't change what the RAW says about the templates.

[gurgleflep]

Their spawning method is also covered...in gruesome detail...in Lords of Madness. This doesn't change what the RAW says about the templates.

What does RAW mean? I don't know any of the abbreviations but LA and RHD.

[PrismCat21]

RAW means 'Rules as Written' - The literal meaning of the rules. (ignore common sense)
RAI means 'Rules as Intended' - What the writers were going for. What the rules are supposed to mean.

[Aegis013]

Yes, but it's typically contended that we have no possible way of discerning the authorial intent. And since the only common ground we as a player-base really have is that all of our books say exactly the same things, mostly what is discussed is the rules as they appear in the books.

Of course, this doesn't rule out interpretation of those rules, but it does mean taking them at face value almost all of the time, even when the fluff (or the descriptive texts) suggest otherwise - like in this case.

Given the Illithid spawning method, it seems like it should work, but given the rules text, it doesn't.

[otakumick]

the template can be applied, because the base creature dies and is replaced by the half-illithid version of it. What with the tadpole eating the original creatures brain.

[gurgleflep]

Okay, so depending on how you interpret the explanation of the templates, it could or could not work. So the dragonborns mentality would be replaced with the half-illithids mentality due to the tadpole eating the previous brain and replacing it.
Thank you everybody, you've all been quite helpful! :smallsmile:

[ksbsnowowl]

Use the version of the half illithid template from Underdark; that one isn't restricted to humanoids. The sample creature is even a half illithid beholder.

Half illithid great wyrm green dragon... Cthulhu... CR 27 creature with SR 48...

By the way, Underdark is the more recent book by 6 months.

[otakumick]

while I like the lack of restriction to humanoids, Underdark claims that half-illithids are the result of crossbreeding. Lords of Madness is the more recent and the primary source for Mind-flayer kind... Anyways it is clearly stated how new illithids and other related creatures come about... om nom nom brains, and take over the body. Though theoretically the transformed result could be able to sexually reproduce(hence the Illithid heritage feats and the related prestige class). Typically illithids and their halffreaks should usually be the result of a transformational event. For instance if a level 10 human rogue gets a tadpole in her ear, om nom nom all those levels go away and the body gets transformed into a mind flayer. Class levels would always be lost in the transformation. Racial hit die would only be preserved in a half illithid, a failed or incomplete transformation.

[Aegis013]

Annoyingly, this doesn't obviate the rules regarding to the types (inherited and acquired) of the templates. My understanding is that you can't gain an acquired template prior to an inherited template. Thus the only order the templates can be applied is Half-Illithid -> Dragonborn, which wipes out most of the benefits Half-Illithid due to the Rite of Rebirth. So by the rules as they are, it doesn't appear Half-Illithid Dragonborns can exist. Even though the fluff suggests otherwise, it doesn't overrule the rules.

Here's a link to the SRD page regarding the template types: Also, only trust this site for rules text if you see it says System Reference Document (SRD) at the bottom (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Templates) the homebrew on dandwiki is often appalling.

[ShurikVch]

Illithid can become half-dragon - at the Dragon Disciple 10th. Or by some weird magical ritual.
And creature infected by illithid tadpole can keep original personality by laethen drug. But it works only at 40% cases...

[The Viscount]

While RAW does state that the half-illithid template is inherited rather than acquired, the text for the template in FF states that it is the result of implantation of a tadpole in an extant creature. Underdark's vague mention of them mucking about with creatures doesn't exactly make things clearer.

[Aegis013]

While RAW does state that the half-illithid template is inherited rather than acquired, the text for the template in FF states that it is the result of implantation of a tadpole in an extant creature. Underdark's vague mention of them mucking about with creatures doesn't exactly make things clearer.

The statement about the method is still fluff, and doesn't overrule the rules text. I know that I'm taking the position of the jerk-face rules lawyer here, but it's just what the rules say.

If your DM allows otherwise, or you as a DM decide to allow otherwise, great! That seems perfectly reasonable. But the rules say what they say, even when oftentimes they fail to make a lot of sense.

[gurgleflep]

... I know that I'm taking the position of the jerk-face rules lawyer here, but it's just what the rules say. ....

I don't mind the fact you're being a rules lawyer, It's giving me another view on the whole situation. All the different opinions have given me a lot to think about with this character idea, you're all quite helpful.

One question though: if the character is allowed, would the tentacles be scaled or no?

Thank you all, by the way. I want to hug you all. :smallbiggrin:

[Dusk Eclipse]

RAW means 'Rules as Written' - The literal meaning of the rules. (ignore common sense)
RAI means 'Rules as Intended' - What the writers were going for. What the rules are supposed to mean.

A little note about RAI, unless you personally know and have asked the designer it is practically impossible to determine if something is RAI or not, so I should suggest to avoid that. To cover the same idea I prefer to go with RAMS (Rules As Makes Sense).

[lunar2]

Okay, I know that the Half-Dragon template can't be added to a mind flayer due to the illithids "birthing" process, or whatever it's called. This is where my question lies, that's not possible, but could the Half-Illithid template be added to a Dragonborn? The Tadpole could be placed in the dragonborns head/ear.

This is just a question based on pure curiosity.

wrong about the half dragon template. the half dragon template can be added to any corporeal living creature. the fluff (descriptive text) of how that happens may vary from creature to creature (a half dragon warforged was probably constructed out of dragon parts, for example), but the actual rules allow half dragon illithids.

[The Viscount]

Aegis013, I don't object to you being a rules lawyer, but I must ask how one is supposed to apply that template knowing how illithids reproduce.

[Aegis013]

Aegis013, I don't object to you being a rules lawyer, but I must ask how one is supposed to apply that template knowing how illithids reproduce.

There's a pretty nasty fluff-crunch conflict here. The rules themselves fail to support the descriptive text. But rules win against fluff in rules debates. I'm not trying to claim it makes good sense.

As far as application, you can apply it to any creature with other inherited templates simultaneously, or without templates, but the creature who gains the template would effectively be dead and replaced with a new Half-Illithid creature.

[gurgleflep]

wrong about the half dragon template. the half dragon template can be added to any corporeal living creature. the fluff (descriptive text) of how that happens may vary from creature to creature (a half dragon warforged was probably constructed out of dragon parts, for example), but the actual rules allow half dragon illithids.

Yes, but Illithid don't breed like other races. I could put the half-dragon onto a human(oid - Edit) then have the half-illithid template added on top of that, but putting the half-dragon on top of a half-illithid wouldn't work... unless the half-illithid keep their reproductive system, and NOBODY wants to imagine that!

[ksbsnowowl]

and NOBODY wants to imagine that!
I think some Japanese animators would disagree...

*squick*

[gurgleflep]

I think some Japanese animators would disagree...

*squick*

"I've seen enough hentai to know where this is going..." came to mind, but I'd like to not voice that on a forum of any form :smallredface:

[TuggyNE]

Yes, but it's typically contended that we have no possible way of discerning the authorial intent. And since the only common ground we as a player-base really have is that all of our books say exactly the same things, mostly what is discussed is the rules as they appear in the books.

Of course, this doesn't rule out interpretation of those rules, but it does mean taking them at face value almost all of the time, even when the fluff (or the descriptive texts) suggest otherwise - like in this case.

I generally like to know exactly what RAW says, if only so I can carefully change it in games I might run (or suggest changes to my DM).


A little note about RAI, unless you personally know and have asked the designer it is practically impossible to determine if something is RAI or not, so I should suggest to avoid that. To cover the same idea I prefer to go with RAMS (Rules As Makes Sense).

Or similarly, RACSD (Rules As Common Sense Dictates) can be useful, especially if using the hashed-out list. :smallwink:

[lunar2]

Yes, but Illithid don't breed like other races. I could put the half-dragon onto a human(oid - Edit) then have the half-illithid template added on top of that, but putting the half-dragon on top of a half-illithid wouldn't work... unless the half-illithid keep their reproductive system, and NOBODY wants to imagine that!

there is no 3.5 RAW about the order you place inherited templates, as long as you qualify for all of them. the method that illithids breed has nothing to do with whether they qualify for half dragon, which can be applied to any corporeal living creature.

it can be applied to oozes that only breed by fission. it can be applied to warforged who do not breed at all. it can be applied to demons that spontaneously arise from the abyss, or any other living, corporeal creature.