The Diploficer. 280+ Diplomacy, here we come.

[SowZ]

So far my build has, effectively, 281 diplomacy. 276 if you don't think that Visage of the Greater Deity gives the racial stat bonus of a Half-Celestial. 288 if I am willing to use DCFS, (Explained below. Also, the Diploficer always take ten, don't take a -10 penalty for rushed on diplomacy checks.)

Build: Warlock 1/Binder 1/Marshal 1/Cleric 1 (Charm and Community Domain)/Artificer 16

Race: Venerable Magic Blooded Unseelie Fey Half-Elf (25 Charisma. 35 With Tomes and levels.)

Flaws: Murkey Eyed, Non-combatant

Traits: Polite, Illiterate (For a +2 Diplomacy)

Feats: Complementary Insight, (Synergy bonus goes up to +3,) Nymph's Kiss, Sacred Vow, Negotiator, Wild Talent, Psicrystal Affinity, Item Familiar, Leadership, Obtain Familiar (Pig,) Skill Focus Diplomacy*, All the crafting feats plus Extra Rings/Attune Magic Weapon/the Artisan Feats* (I still have one feat left, too!) *Means I got it as a bonus feat

Magic Items: (Many of these items can be 1/day because they last so long. Regardless, well within a level 20 Characters WBL. Enough so we could buy extra items to consume to fuel the XP costs. But we shouldn't need to with the craft reserve.)
Charisma Boosters
Nixie's Grace, +8 Cha.
Devil's Ego, (Magic Item, Command Word, keep casting until +5)
Snowsong, +4 Cha.
Righteous Aura, +4 Cha.
Visage of the Greater Deity, +4 Cha
Diplomacy Boosters
+30 Diplomacy Item
Voice of the Dragon, +10
CL 15 Divine Insight, +20
CL 16 Improvisation, +8
Item of Friendly Face
Pendant of Joy +5 (Greater Heroism is smarter for a morale bonus in an opposed diplomacy situation.)

Binder lets me ignore the penalty for rushed diplomacy and lets me take ten on Diplomacy checks. Warlock gives me Beguiling Influence. Marshal let's me
double the Charisma bonus on skill checks.

I wear Glamerweave for +2.

Total Charisma of 67, with +4 from Charm Cleric and my FoP cohort.

Final Tally: 23 Skill Ranks, +54 Charisma, +30 Competence, +23 Item Familiar, +20 Insight, +10 Enhancement (Voice of the Dragon,) +10 Circumstance (Artificer Infusion,) +9 Synergy, +8 Luck, +6 Warlock, +5 Morale, +3 Skill Focus, +3 Psicrystal, +3 Pig, +2 Negotiator, +2 Perfection, +2 Circumstance, +2 Racial, +2 Traits, +2 Glamerweave, +2 Community, +10 d20 roll, +10 when taking -10 for quick diplomacy

Now, here is where we go crazy. Take Leadership. My Cohort? I am going to try and attract a Half-Elf. The rules don't say I can attract templates or anything, though. So I won't do it. But I am going to encourage him to be a diplomancer. I will train him in the art of diplomancy. And I will let him use all my items, even making him his own +30 diplomacy ring cause I am so nice.

I'm attracting a Charisma Prodigy/Binder/Warlock/Fiend of Possession, Half-Elf Kaorti. While assuming the Evil subtype, he doesn't actually have to be evil. Assuming he has 13 Charisma, I am going to age him to Venerable. He might get pissed about it. Oh, well, I can calm him down cause he is a fanatic follower. So 24 Charisma. +4 from levels, +5 from Tome. 31. I can bring it up to 60 with all my gear and his dip coming up. He can give me +3 Cha, too!

Assuming he has max diplomacy ranks, skill focus, negotiator, and complementary insight, he will have a high bonus. He can take a level of Marshal, freeing up a feat slot. He can take Favored and Primary Contact for +1 skill rank. I am going to make him take a Sacred Vow and make out with my Nymph friend after he dips in Charm/Community Domain Cleric, (he will serve my god, now. Remember, this is TO. If his Cohort was this good, this is the highest theoretical Diplomacy if we do it right. Barring Jumplomancy and loops.) He will also take three levels in half-elf.

Also, he should dip a level in Psion. Take Psicrystal Affinity. +3. Wizard for a Pig Familiar is an easy +3 boost.

His build is Kaorti 4/Prodigy 2/Binder 1/Warlock 1/Marshal 1/Psion 1/Cleric 1/Half-Elf Paragon 3/Wizard 1/X (Free levels) 2

I teach him to make an item familiar. If he maxes it out, that is plus 17. Final score should be 266 on his Diplomacy, (268 with Glamerweave.) His aid another gives me +26, using the expert assistance rules.

I'm assuming LA Buyoff is a no-go. If it is not, yipee for us. We can be Charisma prodigy Half-Fey. That is an extra +10 Diplomacy! But let's not assume that, it breaks the rules.

ULTRA MUNCHKIN MODE
This uses the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle. It also throws a bunch of 3e feats into the mix. Anyway, our half-elf Cohort will take one level of Fighter and three of Artificer, giving us four lovely feats to play with. Trustworthy, Persuasive, and Alluring. He will also take Undead Empathy.

As for our part, we want to keep Extra Rings, Extraordinary Artisan, Legendary Artisan from our Artificer bonus feats. As for crafting feats, we will keep Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Forge Ring. We have six extra feats. Taking Favored and Primary Contact will give us plus one skill rank and let us dump an extra point in our Item familiar. Then we take Persuasive, Trustworthy, and Alluring. Then we take Nimbus of Light for +2 when dealing with good creatures.

The bonus is now up to 286, 288 against Good aligned creatures. And we can use diplomacy against unintelligent undead, which is stupid but kinda nice utility.

Could I go any higher? What is the current record? Did I break any rules? Thanks, playground.

[Astral Avenger]

I'm not a rules expert, so I could definitely be wrong here, but I thought that in dnd 3.5 the max bonus one item can give is 6. Otoh if the dragon thingy +10 is a specific then that would trump the general rule.
I don't know wording of either offhand, so I am probably wrong in some way, shape or form. I like the idea of playing this thing...

*walks up to a group of devils*
"You should be nice to people"
*walks away from a group of angels*

[SowZ]

I'm not a rules expert, so I could definitely be wrong here, but I thought that in dnd 3.5 the max bonus one item can give is 6. Otoh if the dragon thingy +10 is a specific then that would trump the general rule.
I don't know wording of either offhand, so I am probably wrong in some way, shape or form. I like the idea of playing this thing...

*walks up to a group of devils*
"You should be nice to people"
*walks away from a group of angels*

You're not wrong. Well, okay, you CAN put a +8 Enh. bonus on an item but it multiplies the cost by ten so it is ridiculous. Voice of the Dragon is a spell. It is totally cheesy to put a spell on an item that gives a bonus bigger than +6, so I would definitely tone down my Artificer cheese if I actually played this.

Also, I don't think Artificer's actually qualify as 'casting' spells even though they kinda-sorta know them all, so Heartwarder probably isn't RAW. Good thing it isn't in my actual build.

[Deaxsa]

Incidentally, 'your' character is also an NPC. unless PCs can take things like unearthly beauty and vestigial twin and prodigy all of a sudden>.>

nitpicks aside, i'm convinced that this is ridiculous, and that your character can in fact befriend everyone.

[SowZ]

Incidentally, 'your' character is also an NPC. unless PCs can take things like unearthly beauty and vestigial twin and prodigy all of a sudden>.>

nitpicks aside, i'm convinced that this is ridiculous, and that your character can in fact befriend everyone.

:smallbiggrin: He's a very nice guy. When he enters and leaves a town, the whole town follows him. Is it pretty well established that Prodigy is illegal for PCs by RAW?

As for the spoiler, it is not relevant since I dropped prodigy from the build.
Anyway, if LA buyoff is allowed, you are probably best off taking Half-Fey, dropping venerable to old, boosting Charisma to make up for it, and then taking a 1 lvl. dip in Witch Hunter or Battledancer. Or, if you want to keep pimping Charisma, take a dip in Cleric. Charm domain. Which would bring your Diplomacy to 230. But I find LA buyoff to be a little cheap in these sorts of things.

Now, IF Prodigy is rules to be non-RAW, it is okay. We will just take that level in Cleric, (which allows us to drop down to old.) Ultimately, our Diplomacy is only 2 lower for the trade off. Further, some people may think it goes against fluff to take Sacred Vow and be an Unseelie. I would argue that it is still okay RAW, and possibly RAI, but even if I have to do both things to appease people it is still 214.

[Deaxsa]

:smallbiggrin: He's a very nice guy. When he enters and leaves a town, the whole town follows him. Is it pretty well established that Prodigy is illegal for PCs by RAW?

Not exactly, it just only ever refers to these abilities as "unique NPC abilities", never using the term PC with these abilities, except in a short segment talking about how NPCs can have unusual benefits too. so VERY strictly raw? i guess it's not for PCs. However, it never says you cannot, and it even gives you rules for increasing LA and CR with these things (prodigy is +2 LA, +0 CR). Just for kicks, Unearthly beauty is +7 CR, and +12 LA. :smalleek:

[Metahuman1]

...

Can Diplomacy work on other PC's?


If so, I have a chaotic stupid party I want to unleash this on. :smallamused:

[Spuddles]

You're not wrong. Well, okay, you CAN put a +8 Enh. bonus on an item but it multiplies the cost by ten so it is ridiculous. Voice of the Dragon is a spell. It is totally cheesy to put a spell on an item that gives a bonus bigger than +6, so I would definitely tone down my Artificer cheese if I actually played this.

Also, I don't think Artificer's actually qualify as 'casting' spells even though they kinda-sorta know them all, so Heartwarder probably isn't RAW. Good thing it isn't in my actual build.

Well you could just put the spell in a scroll, then use metamagic trigger cheese to persist it and burn an action point that you got from a spell to make it so you dont use a charge.

...but then, Voice of the dragon doesn't give you a boost to charisma.

[edit]
What, and where, is charisma prodigy?

[SowZ]

I modified the build cheesing out Expert Assistance. Up to 238, which I believe is the record without loops/jumplomancy/stuff like that. I could be wrong.


Well you could just put the spell in a scroll, then use metamagic trigger cheese to persist it and burn an action point that you got from a spell to make it so you dont use a charge.

...but then, Voice of the dragon doesn't give you a boost to charisma.

Yeah, you're right, there are other ways to do it.


Well you could just put the spell in a scroll, then use metamagic trigger cheese to persist it and burn an action point that you got from a spell to make it so you dont use a charge.

...but then, Voice of the dragon doesn't give you a boost to charisma.

[edit]
What, and where, is charisma prodigy?

You are right, it is to diplomacy itself as an enhancement bonus. Oops. Okay, so replace it with Nixie's Grace. I lose 2 Charisma, which means I lose out on 2 Diplomacy. If the Voice of the Dragon stacks with what I have, I actually will net gain +6 from that.

[Draz74]

This is small potatoes, but you can certainly get a Diplomacy boost out of two more feats. You could go with Wild Talent and Psicrystal Affinity (and a psicrystal with the Friendly personality), but unless I'm missing an insight bonus somewhere in your array of buffs, you'll get more bang for your buck out of Shape Soulmeld (Silvertongue Mask) and Bonus Essentia.

[Psyren]

...

Can Diplomacy work on other PC's?


If so, I have a chaotic stupid party I want to unleash this on. :smallamused:

It explicitly doesn't, and even if it did, all they would do is ignore anything they didn't want to go along with no matter what you rolled.

[SowZ]

This is small potatoes, but you can certainly get a Diplomacy boost out of two more feats. You could go with Wild Talent and Psicrystal Affinity (and a psicrystal with the Friendly personality), but unless I'm missing an insight bonus somewhere in your array of buffs, you'll get more bang for your buck out of Shape Soulmeld (Silvertongue Mask) and Bonus Essentia.

Sadly I already have +20 Insight. The friendly bonus is untyped though, right?

Hmm, I need ONE more feat to pull that trick off. If I have to, I'll dump Primary Contact/Favored. But that will lose me two diplomacy points, (net me three, though.) Any chance there are any ACFs I missed out on that get me a bonus feat?

Right now, I can get 3 feats at level 1, a level 3 feat, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18. My artificer bonus feats are specific, so I can't use those. And I don't want to use Shuffling Shenanigans... Where can I get an extra feat?

[Psyren]

Any chance there are any ACFs I missed out on that get me a bonus feat?

I think you only have 1 flaw as of this post - another will get you one more feat.

[Gazzien]

Sadly I already have +20 Insight. The friendly bonus is untyped though, right?

Hmm, I need ONE more feat to pull that trick off. If I have to, I'll dump Primary Contact/Favored. But that will lose me two diplomacy points, (net me three, though.) Any chance there are any ACFs I missed out on that get me a bonus feat?

Right now, I can get 3 feats at level 1, a level 3 feat, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18. My artificer bonus feats are specific, so I can't use those. And I don't want to use Shuffling Shenanigans... Where can I get an extra feat?

I believe that there are ways to literally sell your soul for feats in one of the Fiend Folios. I could be mistaken, though.

[SowZ]

I think you only have 1 flaw as of this post - another will get you one more feat.

Yeah, the other flaw will get me wild talent. I still need to grab Psicrystal affinity somehow.


I believe that there are ways to literally sell your soul for feats in one of the Fiend Folios. I could be mistaken, though.

That one might screw with my Sacred Vow, though. Would it, by RAW?

[Spuddles]

I dunno, it may be an order in which you take them thing.

If you're really going to cheese feat purchase, just magical location + DCFS.

[SowZ]

I dunno, it may be an order in which you take them thing.

If you're really going to cheese feat purchase, just magical location + DCFS.

I could, yeah. Last resort I may. I'd rather not, but I could. I suppose I could always Sacred Vow after I DCFS. If there is another way, I'll take it, though.

[Gazzien]

I could, yeah. Last resort I may. I'd rather not, but I could. I suppose I could always Sacred Vow after I DCFS. If there is another way, I'll take it, though.

I believe that it would mess with it, unless you took the feat, were converted back to good (per the rules in BoED), then took your Sacred Vows... which is possible.

A poor <class> in a small town, driven to dark powers by the ruthless destruction of his town, only to be captured by/ turn themselves into a peaceful group of religious folk, who then turn him back to the path of good... Storybook enough to fit D&D.

[Spuddles]

How much is being good doing for you, really? (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/power-leech--213/)

[SowZ]

I've read of Psionic Artificer. I can replicate all spells, though, so I can already replicate Psionic spells. Does Psionic Artificer limit my ability to craft non psionic items? Would it even qualify me for Psicrystal affinity?


How much is being good doing for you, really? (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/power-leech--213/)

Hehe. I'd have to be able to get a +12 Enh. bonus to make it worthwhile, though.


I believe that it would mess with it, unless you took the feat, were converted back to good (per the rules in BoED), then took your Sacred Vows... which is possible.

A poor <class> in a small town, driven to dark powers by the ruthless destruction of his town, only to be captured by/ turn themselves into a peaceful group of religious folk, who then turn him back to the path of good... Storybook enough to fit D&D.

Good point.

[Sugashane]

Looks good. Another facet that you might be able to use is Legacy Champion, where you can add skill points to a Legacy Item. It could be very potent when combined with Artificer I imagine, though +250 to Diplomacy is....ok, I guess. :smallbiggrin:

[Gazzien]

I've read of Psionic Artificer. I can replicate all spells, though, so I can already replicate Psionic spells. Does Psionic Artificer limit my ability to craft non psionic items? Would it even qualify me for Psicrystal affinity?
Psionic powers are not spells.


Hehe. I'd have to be able to get a +12 Enh. bonus to make it worthwhile, though. CL=20; gate something in that has at least 20 CHA (or use one of your own items/spells on it temporarily to get it there), and drain it for a +20 Enhancement.

[Psyren]

I've read of Psionic Artificer. I can replicate all spells, though, so I can already replicate Psionic spells.

What the heck is a "psionic spell?" :smalltongue:


Does Psionic Artificer limit my ability to craft non psionic items? Would it even qualify me for Psicrystal affinity?

Psionic Artificer can craft every psionic item, and almost every magic item as well (using the rules in MiC.)

[Telonius]

Might be a long way to go about it... but the "Fiend of Corruption" monster PrC from Fiend Folio 3.5 can grant an untyped +3 to one stat (Say, Charisma) daily.

Interestingly enough, you don't have to be a devil or a demon - or even have an Evil alignment - to qualify. Start out with a Tiefling (or anything else with the Outsider type), whose parents paid for an Alignment Ritual (Savage Species) when the child was an infant. Instant Evil Outsider. Later, the tiefling changes alignment to Good - maybe after being diplomacized at +250? - so you don't have to worry about associating with evildoers. Take 10 levels of Bard to get the required Will save.

[SowZ]

What the heck is a "psionic spell?" :smalltongue:



Psionic Artificer can craft every psionic item, and almost every magic item as well (using the rules in MiC.)

Hmm, do you know if I would be unable to craft anything above? And could I use it to qualify for the Psicrystal?

Also, let me make sure, I'm correct on this, your CL is Artificer level +2. But you have to have a high enough actual Artificer level to cast the spell, right?


Might be a long way to go about it... but the "Fiend of Corruption" monster PrC from Fiend Folio 3.5 can grant an untyped +3 to one stat (Say, Charisma) daily.

Interestingly enough, you don't have to be a devil or a demon - or even have an Evil alignment - to qualify. Start out with a Tiefling (or anything else with the Outsider type), whose parents paid for an Alignment Ritual (Savage Species) when the child was an infant. Instant Evil Outsider. Later, the tiefling changes alignment to Good - maybe after being diplomacized at +250? - so you don't have to worry about associating with evildoers. Take 10 levels of Bard to get the required Will save.

I'm highly considering making my Cohort a Kaorti and dipping a level in this.

[Phelix-Mu]

Some serious refluff may be needed to swing both selling the soul and Sacred Vow. I suppose the powers of good may subsidize your benefit from the soul pact, but more realistically, it's hard to be good while still accepting the benefits of being evil. If it were easy to do this, evil would be screwed, since there goes their hook for corrupting those that seek power to do good at "little price." Strict reading of good might allow some intermediary step of having pledged service to goodness, but still having a contract out on your soul...I guess it may depend on the pact format you are using.

As to the other points, I think you have climbed to the top of the diplomancer build charts. The only other thing I could think of was maybe some dragon heritage stuff...no, doesn't seem like that might work. Too bad they didn't publish stuff like psionic dragon heritage for the gem dragons (my favorite dragons).

And too bad Book of Erotic Fantasy isn't official. I seem to remember some bonuses to interaction stuff based on the Appearance ability score mechanic.

[SowZ]

Some serious refluff may be needed to swing both selling the soul and Sacred Vow. I suppose the powers of good may subsidize your benefit from the soul pact, but more realistically, it's hard to be good while still accepting the benefits of being evil. If it were easy to do this, evil would be screwed, since there goes their hook for corrupting those that seek power to do good at "little price." Strict reading of good might allow some intermediary step of having pledged service to goodness, but still having a contract out on your soul...I guess it may depend on the pact format you are using.

As to the other points, I think you have climbed to the top of the diplomancer build charts. The only other thing I could think of was maybe some dragon heritage stuff...no, doesn't seem like that might work. Too bad they didn't publish stuff like psionic dragon heritage for the gem dragons (my favorite dragons).

And too bad Book of Erotic Fantasy isn't official. I seem to remember some bonuses to interaction stuff based on the Appearance ability score mechanic.

Cool cool.

So the questions I still have are ,

A. Is visage of the greater diety an untyped cha. Bonus?
B. Does psionic artific qualify for psi crystals and can I make all the above items with it?
C. Is there any way that I've missed to get another +1?

[Psyren]

bi) No, they don't have the psionic subtype (no PP, PLAs, or "Psionics" SLAs) and so must gain it like everyone else, via Wild/Hidden Talent. They can fake it very well but can't actually take Psicrystal Affinity without it.

bii) This one is dependent on your DM; you need to find powers that provide the necessary bonus to your Cha and Diplomacy checks. Animal Affinity will cover you for enhancement to Cha and Empathy will cover insight to Diplomacy for instance. Then s/he decides if they're close enough thematically to the required spells to create those items to be allowed. It's a somewhat subjective area.

For this specific thought experiment I would say stick with regular Artificer.

[Metahuman1]

It explicitly doesn't, and even if it did, all they would do is ignore anything they didn't want to go along with no matter what you rolled.

Well, the players wouldn't like it but they'd go with it if they lost the dice rolls and me and the DM told them "No, you didn't roll high enough to get out of it."

Yes, I'm aware this would require me to be a colossal @$$ to my party, but every once in a blue moon, they make me crazy enough not to care.

Alas, if RAW it doesn't work, then I loose the option to do that too them.

[Spuddles]

Curmudgeon has ruled that greater visage is an enhancement bonus, as it refers to visage which is enhancement. But ymmv. That would be the conservative ruling.

[SowZ]

Curmudgeon has ruled that greater visage is an enhancement bonus, as it refers to visage which is enhancement. But ymmv. That would be the conservative ruling.

Hmm, but since it essentially says you are gaining the Half-Celestial template, wouldn't that make it a racial bonus? Shoot, a direct reading seems to say you get all the benefits of the Lesser Visage, (including a +4 enhancement,) and you gain the template temporarily, making it a +8 Cha total.


bi) No, they don't have the psionic subtype (no PP, PLAs, or "Psionics" SLAs) and so must gain it like everyone else, via Wild/Hidden Talent. They can fake it very well but can't actually take Psicrystal Affinity without it.

bii) This one is dependent on your DM; you need to find powers that provide the necessary bonus to your Cha and Diplomacy checks. Animal Affinity will cover you for enhancement to Cha and Empathy will cover insight to Diplomacy for instance. Then s/he decides if they're close enough thematically to the required spells to create those items to be allowed. It's a somewhat subjective area.

For this specific thought experiment I would say stick with regular Artificer.

Thanks, yeah, I will.

One more question.

The Feat Ability Enhancer? That doesn't matter to me since I am casting the spells from an item, right? Or would it work even though I am casting it from an item?

[Vaz]

The snowflake charisma boost makes it difficult to be heard over the noise of the wind.

I realise that Diplomacy is the name of the game, but an similar can be achieved by something like Whatever 14/Cancer Mage 1/Exemplar 5 and become a Jumplomancer, if the purpose is for optimization of Diplomacy.

[Jack_Simth]

So far my build has, effectively, 265 diplomacy. 261 if you don't think that Visage of the Greater Deity gives the racial stat bonus of a Half-Celestial. (Always take ten, don't take a -10 penalty for rushed.)... what's the point? With just a +159 modifier, you can already make a Rushed Diplomacy check to turn Hostile to Fanatical on a roll of 1 as a full round action. Have you found an extension to Diplomacy somewhere that lets you take a penalty to use it on more than one individual at a time?

[SowZ]

The snowflake charisma boost makes it difficult to be heard over the noise of the wind.

I realise that Diplomacy is the name of the game, but an similar can be achieved by something like Whatever 14/Cancer Mage 1/Exemplar 5 and become a Jumplomancer, if the purpose is for optimization of Diplomacy.

Yeah, the jumplomancer record beats 1000. I'm going for the record of highest diplomacy check that is actually a diplomacy check, though, not using another skill in place of diplomacy.


... what's the point? With just a +159 modifier, you can already make a Rushed Diplomacy check to turn Hostile to Fanatical on a roll of 1 as a full round action. Have you found an extension to Diplomacy somewhere that lets you take a penalty to use it on more than one individual at a time?

Mostly for fun, but there are two instances when it is useful. One, you can use diplomacy to make one group friendly towards another group. So I could try and mediate nations or something this way. You add the leaders Charisma modifier to the DC of the check. So in case the leader of said group is a diplomancer himself, I can still convince him.

Two, if you use certain diplomacy variants, (including The Giant's himself,) you factor in something about the target. Sometimes it is level or Sense Motive or Wisdom or more than one of those things. Even with such a rule system in place, the Diploficer should be able to Diplomance the gods.