PF - Preparing for magic item creation

[Yora]

So I want to create a magic item and it all hinges on that one Spellcraft check made at the end. How would I prepare to make sure everything goes well?

I should be able to take 10, and since I know the DC in advance, I can make sure I have all the bonuses I will need.

- Masterwork Tools for a +2 bonus.
- Having an assistant Aiding me for another +2 bonus. Hopefully one with a +9 Spellcraft modifier.
- Getting a bit cheesy, casting fox' cunning before doing the finishing step for another +2. It never says that the modifiers have to be in place for the whle item creation process, or anything about how long the final step takes.
- With 1 rank in Spellcraft, it's another +4 as a class skill.
- Plus +1 to +3 from the regular Int modifier for a 1st level spellcaster.
- Let's say we're a 6th level character and maxed out Spellcraft, which is another +5.

So that is a guaranteed Spellcraft check of 26 to 28.
As a 6th level character, the Caster Level can only by 6th, so the base DC for the item would be 11. This gives me free room to ignore 3 prerequistes. (Since for every additional skill rank the caster level could also rise by only one, the difference would always be +15 with the other modifiers staying the same.)
That does look a bit too easy.

[Occasional Sage]

Welcome to Pathfinder.

This is one of the main reasons my DM doesn't allow 10s on enchanting.

[Baroncognito]

That does look a bit too easy.

Yes, the spellcraft check should be easy if you meet all the requirements. It's DC 5 + caster level and if you put one rank in spellcraft every level and spell craft is a class skill, you only fail 10% of the time. And someone who has invested in spellcraft should never fail by 5 or more.

The real cost of item creation is the time it takes. Half-cost items are nice, but if you're out adventuring, you're only getting 2 hours of work done a day, so it would take you eight days to make a +1 sword.

Edit: 5% chance of failure because tie counts as a success. So, without an intelligence bonus to spellcraft, you should only fail if you roll a one. If you've got a bonus to spellcraft, any type of bonus at all, you can't fail.

[VanIsleKnight]

I have never understood the rules for crafting items, magical or mundane. It has always been needlessly complicated and complex, and almost every campaign I've played in I've seen it either be broken by someone savvy, or be completely underwhelming and a waste of time and resources for the player that tried it. I was happy to just use whatever we found, it was usually more than enough.

The way my DM explains it, it'd take years to make anything worthwhile because of craft checks.

[Bhaakon]

Maybe we should go back to second edition a charge players a point of constitution (not serious).

[Baroncognito]

By adding 5 to the DC, you can double the amount of work you do per a work session.

And the feat "Cooperative crafting" helps speed things up too.

[Psyren]

Welcome to Pathfinder.

This is one of the main reasons my DM doesn't allow 10s on enchanting.

Oh no, mundanes can get the gear they need to function more easily. Clearly we should do something.

Crafting is already DM-dependent anyway (you need wealth and you need time, both of which come from the DM) so having less internal obstacles in the process is fine by me.

[Alienist]

After going through the UMDWTF hell that is the artificer*, the pathfinder magic item creation rules are like manna from heaven.

*cool concept, terrible implementation

[Yora]

I have never understood the rules for crafting items, magical or mundane. It has always been needlessly complicated and complex, and almost every campaign I've played in I've seen it either be broken by someone savvy, or be completely underwhelming and a waste of time and resources for the player that tried it. I was happy to just use whatever we found, it was usually more than enough.

The way my DM explains it, it'd take years to make anything worthwhile because of craft checks.
Actually my ultimate goal is to strip the item creation feats from the game while still making it possible for players to build custom items to deal with specific obstacles they will have to face. Just say "You can't do it, but that lousy NPC witch can make if for you in two days" is a bit cheap.

So I was thinking that crafting without a feeat should increase the Spellcraft DC by +10, double the normal amont for ignoring a prerequisite. But obviously, a base DC of 15 is still very low.
20 + CL + 5/prerequisite seems like a more sensible starting point.

What I hoped to find was a situation in which you can craft an item reliably, but it's a major effort that requires a lot of effort and resources. Like having a highly specialized workshop, expert assistants, preparatory spells cast on the workplace, and so on. But I want it to be difficult on the characters, not hard on me as the GM who has to remember and track all those steps. :smallbiggrin:

[navar100]

If crafting is that important to your character take Skill Focus (Spellcraft). The early +3 helps, and when it becomes +6 at level 10 presuming max ranks, huzzah!

[Baroncognito]

What I hoped to find was a situation in which you can craft an item reliably, but it's a major effort that requires a lot of effort and resources. Like having a highly specialized workshop, expert assistants, preparatory spells cast on the workplace, and so on. But I want it to be difficult on the characters, not hard on me as the GM who has to remember and track all those steps. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, instead of taking any craft item feats, I took the leadership feat, which isn't so overwhelmingly powerful when your cohort and followers stay back at the base of operations and make stuff for the war effort.

[Psyren]

If crafting is that important to your character take Skill Focus (Spellcraft). The early +3 helps, and when it becomes +6 at level 10 presuming max ranks, huzzah!

Wow, I didn't even notice the bonus doubled like that. I love Pathfinder!

I hope Kyeudo ports his Truenamer over :smallbiggrin:

[Daftendirekt]

Would Crafter's Fortune apply to Spellcraft? :smalltongue:

I know it doesn't. Try and convince your DM anyway.

[Roog]

As a 6th level character, the Caster Level can only by 6th, so the base DC for the item would be 11. This gives me free room to ignore 3 prerequistes. (Since for every additional skill rank the caster level could also rise by only one, the difference would always be +15 with the other modifiers staying the same.)
That does look a bit too easy.
It looks easy because you are unnecessarily limiting the items you make.
You are not limited to making items with a caster level less than or equal to yours.
A 1st level pearl of power is CL17, which gives a DC of 27 for a double speed check.

[AttilaTheGeek]

]As a 6th level character, the Caster Level can only by 6th, so the base DC for the item would be 11.

So, for example, I can't craft a Pearl of Power until I'm 17th level, even if it's only a 1st-level one?

[Giarc]

You technically can make any magical item as long as you have the item creation feat. Each missing prerequisite just adds +5 to the DC. The CL listed on item descriptions isn't related to item creation except for difficulty.

[Psyren]

You technically can make any magical item as long as you have the item creation feat. Each missing prerequisite just adds +5 to the DC. The CL listed on item descriptions isn't related to item creation except for difficulty.

Almost any - for spell trigger (e.g. wands) and spell completion (e.g. scrolls) you do need the actual spells to create them.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Oh, okay. That's what I thought, but I'm just starting to get into crafting on one character, so I'm not super clear on the rules.

[Psyren]

There's an official ruling on crafting pearls of power (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/pearl-of-power) - it's quoted on the item page.

[navar100]

The caster level in the book for magic items are for such items found in treasure. You can always make a magic item at a caster level lower than what's published but at a minimum of the caster level necessary for the highest level spell prerequisite. The item functions normally in all ways except it's that much easier to suppress with Dispel Magic. Spell-trigger items such as wands and scrolls naturally do have the spell effects happen at the caster level crafted.

[Psyren]

The item functions normally in all ways except it's that much easier to suppress with Dispel Magic.

It also affects the power of the spell coming out of the item itself. A CL11 scroll of fireball will do more damage and have an easier time piercing SR than a CL5 one will.

[AttilaTheGeek]

There's an official ruling on crafting pearls of power (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/pearl-of-power) - it's quoted on the item page.

Ooh, okay. Thanks for clearing that up. I guess that's what I get for using the paizo.com site instead.

Double edit: moved the addition into its own post.

[Psyren]

Ooh, okay. Thanks for clearing that up. I guess that's what I get for using the paizo.com site instead.

Actually, paizo.com is the source of the quote - they tend to post errata/rulings to their forums though, so the PFSRD guys go there and pick it up. The official PRD doesn't get updated until they do a new print run, so the PFSRD tends to be the most up-to-date at any given moment.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Wait, nevermind. I'm confused again.


At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.


Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level. However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st. For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.

So to craft a Pearl of Power of a 2nd-level spell as a 3rd level wizard, I need to make a DC 8 Spellcraft check- 5 base plus CL 3, and the fact that a Pearl of Power has CL 17 by default doesn't apply. But if I want to craft a Headband of Vast Intelligence, which has CL 8, then I need to make a DC 13 Spellcraft check (5+8=13), or DC 18 if I don't also have Fox's Cunning. Is that all correct?

[Psyren]

So to craft a Pearl of Power of a 2nd-level spell as a 3rd level wizard, I need to make a DC 8 Spellcraft check- 5 base plus CL 3, and the fact that a Pearl of Power has CL 17 by default doesn't apply.

Correct.


But if I want to craft a Headband of Vast Intelligence, which has CL 8, then I need to make a DC 13 Spellcraft check (5+8=13), or DC 18 if I don't also have Fox's Cunning. Is that all correct?

Partially correct. You can in fact create a Headband with a lower CL than 8 (and indeed, you would have to in this instance.)

"A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell."

The "needed spell" in this case, Fox's Cunning, has a minimum caster level of 3. So you can create a CL 3 headband, and the base DC would thus be 8 (5+3), with an additional 5 if you didn't happen to know the spell for a grand total of 13.

In short, the CL 8 in the Headband's entry is there so that DMs know what CL they typically have if found as treasure. It is not part of the "Requirements" block for you to have that same CL.

[Giarc]

Yes, that is correct.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Got it. Thank you very much. :smallsmile:

[Doreegekku]

"A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell."

The "needed spell" in this case, Fox's Cunning, has a minimum caster level of 3. So you can create a CL 3 headband, and the base DC would thus be 8 (5+3), with an additional 5 if you didn't happen to know the spell for a grand total of 13.

In the case of an item that doesn't cast a spell, like the headband, what effect does having a low caster level have on the item?

[Psyren]

In the case of an item that doesn't cast a spell, like the headband, what effect does having a low caster level have on the item?

Easier to suppress (via dispel magic) is the main one. It also matters for more esoteric scenarios like the item's saving throws. (Typically this never comes up, as a PC's saving throws are almost always higher than those of their items anyway.)

[Spuddles]

Depending on the familiar, they could probably aid you on your roll, and I suspect there is a trait out there that boosts spellcraft by +1.

Is there anything keeping a level 5 wizard from crafting CL10 scroll of fireball, if the wizard has fireball on his list? Other than price, etc.

[Psyren]

Depending on the familiar, they could probably aid you on your roll, and I suspect there is a trait out there that boosts spellcraft by +1.

Is there anything keeping a level 5 wizard from crafting CL10 scroll of fireball, if the wizard has fireball on his list? Other than price, etc.

Nothing beyond the Spellcraft check itself, and the price.

Using the scroll once made might have its own challenges, however; as it has a higher CL than his own, it could result in a mishap.

[Yora]

You can actually craft items at a lower caster level than listed in 3.5e as well. Which is very hard to spot, since the only indication is that CL is separated by the prerequisites by a semicolon instead of a comma. That one tiny dot changes everything. :smallbiggrin:


Faint transmutation; CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, bull’s strength; Price 4,000 gp; Weight 4 lb.