Builds to avoid all attacks?

[Nettlekid]

For some reason, although the Ubercharger and the Mailman are entertaining builds for their massive damage output, once in a while I like the idea of building a super-defensive character that would just piss off anyone fighting it. In the past I built an effectively immortal character who relied on a plethora of magic items to render him immune to everything I could think of. But now, how about a character who's infuriating to his enemies in that he evades every kind of offense against him, and is as such untouchable?

I'm thinking either Fighter or Monk, because the bonus feats help. Also, Monk adds insult to injury.
The feats that I think you'd need would be Evasive Reflexes, first and foremost. Make a 5ft step instead of an AoO? Perfect. Couple with Combat Reflexes (or Improved Combat Reflexes in low epic) to keep dashing out of the way. Wield a reach weapon to provoke more AoOs to run from. If you had Deflect Arrows, and then again in low epic Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection, no ranged attack (not even the Mailman's Orbs) could strike you. And then if you wore some custom magic item of continuous Antimagic Field, no magical effect can target you. Is there anything I'm missing, or would that create an untouchable combatant?

That's actually not all that many feats. Swordsage levels would probably be good for Ex Teleports and the Press the Advantage stance.

[Rubik]

Be a warforged or elan spell-to-power erudite, or max out UMD and UPD.

Use Ice Assassin (or a scroll thereof) to create an aleax of yourself. Aleaxes are completely invulnerable to anyone and anything that doesn't directly correspond to the thing they were created to kill (including gods). Now you control yours. Manifest Fusion (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fusion.htm) to merge with it and then Astral Seed (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) just prior to killing yourself. Don't UnFusion with your Ice Assassin before suicide.

When you come back, the original aleax will be a part of you. You're now an aleax of yourself and completely immune to everything but yourself. You're now the only one who can affect you in any way, including damage and offensive spells.

Have fun being immortal and invulnerable.

[Psyren]

It is actually possible to stop an Aleax; you simply need a way of affecting it that doesn't count as an attack. In addition, though it can only be harmed by its intended victim (which is now you yourself, using Rubik's trick) it only fails to be hindered by other creatures. A non-harming effect from a non-creature source can still slow it down or stop it outright.

[Keltaris]

In case you're allergic to cheese, try this. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29427631/)

[Phelix-Mu]

It is actually possible to stop an Aleax; you simply need a way of affecting it that doesn't count as an attack. In addition, though it can only be harmed by its intended victim (which is now you yourself, using Rubik's trick) it only fails to be hindered by other creatures. A non-harming effect from a non-creature source can still slow it down or stop it outright.

So like bad weather?

The Aleax trick always struck me as sketchy. Aleaxes are tools used by gods. Not sure I want to be caught sticking my hand in the toolbox of the gods for my invulnerability trick. Do gods count as creatures? :smallbiggrin:

I think you could probably engineer said immortal and invulnerable person into a trap of some kind that ported him/her to a prison plane of some kind. As long as the source isn't a creature...not a big bar to jump there. Non-attack likewise leaves a whole slew of stuff as options. Finally, it's way easier than op usually admits to get someone that should be immortal/invulnerable to do the one stupid thing that gets him/her killed. We need only look to mythology to see that the single weakness/flawless plan (except for...) thing is not as cool as it sounds.

[ArcturusV]

Probably silly, but when I first read this what popped into my mind is a creative, and well played, Illusionist. It takes less levels to get online than most schemes to become immune to everything. Less likely to get a DM to throw a punch at you (Or a book I suppose if you are sitting at the far end of the table). Doesn't necessarily "Steal the Spotlight" or depend on your enemies walking into your build and doing exactly what you want. True Seeing may suck some fun out of it of course. But a lot less likely to have someone throw something at you. Or in the case of your fighter build the enemies you are designed to counter just ignoring you (As the build seems set up to only be a threat to people who dog after you), and just throw AoE or Auto-Hits at you. Even with the AMF you're still vulnerable to things like simple Fire flasks after all (Not to mention before you get that even simple Blaster wizards are going to end your day). Or creative use of spells like I'd normally use to avoid AMFs (Loosen Stone on the roof over your head to cause a collapse of perfectly mundane stone dealing damage to you and pinning you down helplessly).

Course, the wrench in the Illusionist plan is how your DM rules "mindless". It's not clear cut. Now... as far as I've been able to read a mindless creature is completely helpless against an Illusion. I've seen DMs rule that as well. They don't have a mind to doubt what they are seeing isn't real and thus will always fail to disbelieve it. I've seen other DMs (Probably fed up with clever use of Illusions foiling their dungeon), rule that Mindless means they could never in fact be tricked because they don't have a mind to process the illusion as reality and thus will instead always act on the reality as their master told them it was.

Which may not come up at all of course.

[Psyren]

So like bad weather?

Well, one example is to trick the Aleax into chasing you to a dead magic plane or something, then have your buddy (or minion) Wish you out, leaving it stranded. He will be completely invulnerable there but also unable to leave. Though of course his god could lift him out the same way and put him back on your trail.

Also, traps aren't creatures, though you'd have to be careful with this one as a creature may have made them. It's unclear how direct or indirect the source has to be. Note also that any effect that causes a saving throw counts as an attack.

[Nettlekid]

Everything suggested so far either involves being outright immune to effects (Aleax) or not having to deal with them in the first place (Hiding/Illusions). What I meant, and I suppose the title of the thread is a bit misleading on that point, is what can you do so that any offense against you simply doesn't connect? Things along the line of always taking a 5ft step when the enemy is near, so you're always a little away and out of reach. If a ranged attack comes, you can deflect it 100% of the time. I'd like a better way to be immune to magic effects than just hiding in an antimagic field, but I can't think of a good one.

[Person_Man]

I think it would work. But you'd want to layer on at least one additional "trick" for when your DM finds a way to foil this one.

Options to consider:

1) More Immediate Action free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). In addition to Evasive Reflexes, take a look at the Wizard 1 with the PHBII variant, Broken One's Sacrifice feat, Celerity spells, Greaves of Aundair, Boots of Sidestepping, Flicker mystery, Formation Expert feat, Faith Unswerving maneuver, Cunning Evasion feat, and Eternal Blade.

2) Hide every round at the end of your turn: Bunch of ways to pull this off. Adept of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352), Cunning Evasion + Explosive weapon enhancement, or just normal Hide in Plain Site combined with free movement.

3) Winged Warrior Feat: As a Move Action you can create a hemisphere of concealment (for those in the cloud) and total concealment (for those trying to look into the cloud) around you. Cast a Standard Action spell, use Mobile Spellcasting Feat to move away from your enemies, and then use your Move Action to activate this feat and prevent counter attack. Easy to qualify for as a Raptorian or Dragonborn. Races of the Wild pg 153.

3) Incarnate. Gets access to a huge array of defensive abilities - Spell Resistance, Evasion, Energy Resistance, massive bonus hit point, AC bonus, damage reduction, Miss Chance, the ability to Deflect Arrows multiple times per round, infinite healing, infinitely replaceable Necrocarnate Zombie, etherealness, and more. And all of them are "all day" continuous abilities. Wind Cloak soulmeld bound to Shoulder chakra (Incarnate 9, or 12 HD if you're using Feats) is a particularly unique-ish option: DR 2 + (2 * esssentia) vs all ranged, Tiny or smaller creatures attempting to enter square must succeed on Fort Save to do so, and you can Deflect Arrows 1 + essentia invested times per round without needing a free hand.

4) Totemist: Though not as defensively oriented as the Incarnate, he does get access to all day greater invisibility via Shadow Mantle and ethereal movement via Phase Cloak at level 9. You can also play a Totemist/Incarnate/Prestige Class, and use both.

5) Binder: Lots of weird defensive tricks. Ronove gives you Far Hand, which lets you move objects with like Mage Hand with a Str equal to your Binder level as a Swift Action, and you can keep it going continuously once started. So buy a very wide and very thin sheet of mithral or whatever, and move it around the battlefield at will to block line of sight and frustrate enemies. Dahlver-Nar gives you Shield Self (50% of damage to an enemy). Paimon gives you Whirlwind Attack and Dance of Death, which can help trigger all sorts of attack of opportunity fun. And at higher levels you can flood the zone with Summons.

6) Confound the Big Folk Feat (Races of the Wild): It has some very specific mechanics you have to follow, but basically if you're two sizes smaller then your enemy (easy to pull off as a Psychic Rogue or Warrior with the Compression power, or just play as a Tibbit or Hengeyokai) then you can move into enemy squares, and the next round he’s Flat Footed against you, and when other enemies attack you they have a 50% chance of hitting the enemy in your square instead of you. Very handy when combined with free movement.

7) Bulwark of Antimagic: A +1 tower shield with an 1/day Anti-Magic Field. 27,580 gp. Draconomicon pg 118. Buy a couple of them if you need them.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, one example is to trick the Aleax into chasing you to a dead magic plane or something, then have your buddy (or minion) Wish you out, leaving it stranded. He will be completely invulnerable there but also unable to leave. Though of course his god could lift him out the same way and put him back on your trail.

Also, traps aren't creatures, though you'd have to be careful with this one as a creature may have made them. It's unclear how direct or indirect the source has to be. Note also that any effect that causes a saving throw counts as an attack.

So would one of those unavoidable damage things count as an attack? There were a number of traps, IIRC, that deal unavoidable damage. Might still have been phrased as some kind of attack, though.

The any saving throw counts as an attack might complicate things. Can't have a tree fall on him in the woods. Darn, cause that was going to be funny. Actually, are they just immune to damage from said effects? Or is it possible that the Aleax would be affected by the falling tree (possibly pinned), but unhurt? That is a big loophole, though, and I imagine would have occurred to whoever thought this up.

Any plan that starts with "Ice Assassin" though looses my attention pretty rapidly. I like simulacra and stuff, but I think the way they made them work in 3e was kind of like "wait...why?" They were always cool, but I don't remember them being the key to infinite power.

That thread about "The Terminator" and the build to kill Pun Pun was unhinged. Way too much craziness if that kind of thing works by RAW.

I do like the monk use for this untouchable build. If you can net Mettle on top of Imp. Evasion, that would be nice, though it's not an easy ability to acquire, AFAIK. This concept should also use sparring dummy of the master (Arms and Equipment Guide) to make all 5' steps into 10' steps, allowing Evasive Reflexes will get silly in a hurry.

Finally, I don't know about the most current version of the epic feat, but the combo Infinite Deflection, Exceptional Deflection, and Reflect Arrows (all three epic feats, so now you have to be level 27 without access to bonus feats that could be epic) could be nice. Reflect Arrows seems to suggest that all ranged attacks that are deflectable are now sent back to their originator, which seems to me to include the ranged attacks included in Exceptional Deflection. Combine with Improved Evasion, SR, a source of fast healing or (ideally) regen, and the druid spell earthen grace, and you have a nice build to confound 90% of what spellcasters are likely to throw your way. Mettle, again, would be nice, but, meh, I dunno if the build is plausible with those kind of op-gymnastics.

[Eldariel]

For Move As Immediate Action (or faster), Contingency, Instant Refuge, Craft Contingent Spell and their ilk should also be of interest.

This is really the primary advantage of high level Wizards; regardless of what people throw at you, you can generally avoid it in one way or another (or kill the source if that were to suit your fancy) thanks to temporal manipulation. Psionics can do it too (Chrono-Legionnaire [ask me if you want the build listed, it got eaten by the forum backup bug on 339] is an old proto-level "Teleport-By Attacker" for instance with access to all the psionic contingencies and such making him very hard to tag).

There's also the Twice-Betrayer of Shar (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871166/New_Build_and_Challenge:_The_Twice-Betrayer_of_Shar) if you prefer being a juggernaut who's very hard to harm. Most of his defenses rely on damage immunity + anti-magic field and an array of other immunities. If the anti-magic field + contingent anti-magic fields are not breached, he's extremely hard to affect by anyone who cannot cast in AMFs (Invoke Magic has trouble due to spell level limitations so it's mostly Initiates of Mystra that are worrisome here).


Basically, you probably want to be a high-level caster or manifester since those have the best tools for this. Evasive Reflexes/Sidestep + Robilar's Gambit (plus Press the Advantage and +39 Tumble) is of course fine vs. melee attacks and exceptional + infinite reflection vs. ranged attacks, but vs. magicks you can't really get better than magic immunity and that only covers so much.

[Slipperychicken]

Finding some way to persist Greater Ironguard (sorc/wiz 7, SpC) and Friendly Fire (sorc/wiz 4, Exemplars of Evil) alone will go a long way to achieving this end. Stacking up Regeneration (Troll-Blooded feat) and immunity to nonlethal, Fire, and Acid will make it very hard to damage you even when they do hit. Some way to cast within an AMF will make you still more irritating as you keep an AMF over yourself at all times, rendering you hard to target with most spells. Keep yourself flying.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A bit of a high level trick (level 12 at the earliest unless you go with a crazy interpretation of martial monk); but Evasive Reflexes+Robilar's Gambit means you can avoid most non-reach attacks, add a sparing dummy of the master or reliable tumble checks DC 40 to avoid up 10 ft. reach attacks.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm, I just thought of a the Miniature's Handbook creature, Walking Wall. Was trying to come up with a way to use this, as it is an elemental (a creature) that can be used to provide cover. Not sure how this works with other critters without this Stony Defense special quality, but if you had access to a number of these critters, they might be useful in setting up line of effect restrictions to counter spellcasters. With the free movement concept, movable walls could be very useful. Getting your hands on them might be challenging, however, barring a high level druid ally, which doesn't fit well with this build.

[Psyren]

Another easy trick is a Starmantle (BoED) + Evasion. This will make you immune to weapon damage if you pass a reflex save.



So would one of those unavoidable damage things count as an attack? There were a number of traps, IIRC, that deal unavoidable damage. Might still have been phrased as some kind of attack, though.

The any saving throw counts as an attack might complicate things. Can't have a tree fall on him in the woods. Darn, cause that was going to be funny. Actually, are they just immune to damage from said effects? Or is it possible that the Aleax would be affected by the falling tree (possibly pinned), but unhurt? That is a big loophole, though, and I imagine would have occurred to whoever thought this up.

Any damage might count as an attack too. But there are plenty of traps that deal neither damage nor saves. A Solid Fog trap for instance would slow one to a crawl.

If a tree fell by itself (i.e. a creature didn't push it) then it would indeed pin him. Only attacks by creatures fail to hinder it.



Any plan that starts with "Ice Assassin" though looses my attention pretty rapidly. I like simulacra and stuff, but I think the way they made them work in 3e was kind of like "wait...why?" They were always cool, but I don't remember them being the key to infinite power.

Ice Assassin tricks rely on the extraordinarily foolish rule in the PHB that any components without a cost are assumed to be in your spell component pouch. This apparently extends to very singular items like a god's eyelash, which allow you to clone any god you want and give it orders.

[Phelix-Mu]

Ice Assassin tricks rely on the extraordinarily foolish rule in the PHB that any components without a cost are assumed to be in your spell component pouch. This apparently extends to very singular items like a god's eyelash, which allow you to clone any god you want and give it orders.

Ah, thanks, now I have my answer as a DM. I have been working for a bit on formalizing a definition of "cost" versus "value," and it seems like this is yet another instance where the distinction would prove useful. "Without cost" means either not available for purchase or easily available without purchase, as "cost" is what someone that is selling is charging for it. "Value" is a more inherent quality, more directly related to an Appraise check and what one might expect to sell a given item for to an interested, private buyer.

Many things that aren't available for purchase (the hand of vecna), and are thus "without cost," are clearly not "without value." Ergo, a nice, RAI solution to spell component pouch weirdness. This might even be able to be tied more closely to RAW by looking at the ill-defined but present distinction between cost and price outlined in the various Item Creation feats.

While I do like the spellcaster fixes, I think it might be more instructive to explore non-spell combo solutions. Everyone on the forums is generally familiar with the concept that proper spell prep+build tricks=win. While I'm not suggesting a magic-less build, let's focus on lower-level spells (wandable, perhaps) and build tricks. Ofc, the OP was pretty wide open, but I like a more esoteric discussion of how to thwart, say, wizards. This is probably because I will one day have the responsibility of doing this as a DM, and I would prefer some finesse options over the normal endurance encounters in non-teleport zones with a smattering of obstructed line of effect and difficulty with spellcasting (Pandemonium, anyone? I've just had a nice thought along those lines...).

[Psyren]

Well, my own trick needs no spells at all - you just get Evasion somehow (Rogue? Monk? Ranger?) and buy a cloak from BoED. It won't protect you from everything under the sun but it's better than Ironguard in many ways.

[Gazzien]

I'm actually building a character like this in a Pathfinder-only campaign right now. Level 10; taken as a Young, Drunk, Summoner [Synthesis] 7/Paladin [LE] 2 'Dread Wraith Sovereign' Half-Elf.

Crazy saves and touch AC (deflection bonus from DWS), going to pick up Mettle next level with a feat and the Hexcrafter-Archetype Magus.

The seven levels of Summoner actually net me 50% concealment, evasion, and immunity to the five main energies (acid, cold, fire, electricity, and sonic), and Dimension Door 1/day if he gets in trouble. Yay, evolutions.

I used the racial ACF's to make him a half-drow (half-drow Paragon, Drow Nobility, Improved Drow Nobility, and Greater Drow Nobility) for the at-will SLAs.

He worships Urgathoa; that allows him to use the magic item "Pallid Crystal" that makes him essentially immune to the positive energy spells (Cure only, maybe, I can't remember).

I'm sure I've missed something in his quest for invulnerability, but...

EDIT: Starmantle Cloak, yes. I need to pick one of those up if I can.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, my own trick needs no spells at all - you just get Evasion somehow (Rogue? Monk? Ranger?) and buy a cloak from BoED. It won't protect you from everything under the sun but it's better than Ironguard in many ways.

Oh, I thought you were referring to a spell in BoED.... Hmm, I'll have to check that out. BoED is one of my favorite sources of tricks for builds. An exalted cleric PC that was being played in one of my campaigns a couple years back practically threw that book at me, and it definitely hurt. Not that I wasn't asking for it, lots of fiends in that campaign.

Back to the OP, deployable cover/concealment are extremely useful for combating spellcasters and other ranged combatants. Smokesticks and tower shields aside, what nifty ways are there to get each? Again, there are a million ways to do this with spells, but let's see about non-spell options, as they avoid steering the build into full caster territory.

[Gazzien]

Oh, I thought you were referring to a spell in BoED.... Hmm, I'll have to check that out. BoED is one of my favorite sources of tricks for builds. An exalted cleric PC that was being played in one of my campaigns a couple years back practically threw that book at me, and it definitely hurt. Not that I wasn't asking for it, lots of fiends in that campaign.
Starmantle is a spell. I presume he meant the Starmantle Cloak, which is essentially a continuous item of Starmantle.

[Traab]

Hmm, if you do that immune to everything except yourself deal, then wouldnt reflect type effects cause "you" to hurt "yourself"? And what about triggered traps? "You" stepped on it, therefore "you" set it off, so it should hurt you.

[Psyren]

Starmantle is a spell. I presume he meant the Starmantle Cloak, which is essentially a continuous item of Starmantle.

Po-tay-toe, etc.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm, if you do that immune to everything except yourself deal, then wouldnt reflect type effects cause "you" to hurt "yourself"? And what about triggered traps? "You" stepped on it, therefore "you" set it off, so it should hurt you.

I think if the monk bats the aleax' own attack back at it, they should hurt it. Just sayin'.

[123456789blaaa]

I think the Evasion Tank (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29395413)is exactly what you're looking for. Combine with some of the other things mentioned in this thread.

[Slipperychicken]

Hmm, if you do that immune to everything except yourself deal, then wouldnt reflect type effects cause "you" to hurt "yourself"? And what about triggered traps? "You" stepped on it, therefore "you" set it off, so it should hurt you.

The trap made the attack roll, or cast the spell, or whatever. Doesn't matter who sets it off.

To illustrate my point, do you count landmines as suicide? Because there are a lot of grieving parents, widows, and orphaned children in former war-zones who would strongly disagree.

[Psyren]

The trap made the attack roll, or cast the spell, or whatever. Doesn't matter who sets it off.

To illustrate my point, do you count landmines as suicide? Because there are a lot of grieving parents, widows, and orphaned children in former war-zones who would strongly disagree.

Well, that depends then. Who do you blame for the death? The landmine, or the guy who planted it there?

If the former, traps are not creatures and can thus hurt an Aleax. If the latter, the trap-setter is the source and, if that entity is a creature, the aleax can bypass his traps unscathed.

The best way to take out an Aleax (that is immune to you) is via environmental hazards of some kind.

[123456789blaaa]

Another good build would be the Gnowhere Gnome (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29427631/).

[Traab]

The trap made the attack roll, or cast the spell, or whatever. Doesn't matter who sets it off.

To illustrate my point, do you count landmines as suicide? Because there are a lot of grieving parents, widows, and orphaned children in former war-zones who would strongly disagree.

I wouldnt count it as suicide, but if I was the one who stepped on it, then I was the one who set it off. Its my action that caused me to get hurt. If someone remotely triggered it, that would be another thing entirely.

[Slipperychicken]

I wouldnt count it as suicide, but if I was the one who stepped on it, then I was the one who set it off. Its my action that caused me to get hurt. If someone remotely triggered it, that would be another thing entirely.

So you're saying that being killed by a land mine is the victim's fault. Even if there was no way he could have known it was there, and someone else planted it with the express purpose of killing random passers-by.

[TuggyNE]

So you're saying that being killed by a land mine is the victim's fault. Even if there was no way he could have known it was there, and someone else planted it with the express purpose of killing random passers-by.

Please, skip the emotional baggage; this is about aleaxes and their ability to avoid damage, not who to blame for political/moral/military issues in the real world.

[Phelix-Mu]

Please, skip the emotional baggage; this is about aleaxes and their ability to avoid damage, not who to blame for political/moral/military issues in the real world.

The degree of instrumentality behind the "attack" is something of an issue, however. Suppose a druid casts control weather, and the bad weather hits the aleax. That sounds like an attack. Filling a cave with icicles that might fall on an aleax if it makes a loud noise, less clear.

In terms of a clear cut strategy, I still would like some kind of trapped/sent to an area where indirect destruction was likely.

Also, something occurred to me, and anyone familiar with this aleax device probably knows. Can there be some kind of chain aleax setup? Here's a somewhat stripped down example, hopefully keeping it simple:

Character X (original)
Aleax of X
Aleax of X post switch
Aleax_2 of X (or maybe Aleax of the mind-switched Aleax)

So, the reason that this comes up is that the aleax seemed to be originally set up to designate a two-person fight, between the original and the Aleax. Can't we just add a second Aleax into the mix? The aleax can't be harmed by except by X or an aleax of X (unless the aleax can't harm itself). The intent of setting up a binary conflict would be preserved. I'm totally unclear on how the ice assassin affects this.

I should look at the Aleax description, but at this point in the night, it is 1000% more fun to ask the experts.

[Psyren]

Recursive Aleaxes would require deific collusion - each deity gets one and only one for a given individual. If the target kills it, that deity can never send another one after them again, ever.