[3.5] Does change of Type also change Subtype?

[Unusual Muse]

If a race with a subtype (Silverbrow Human: Dragonblood subtype) also has an inherited template that changes their type (Half-Fey: Type--> Fey), does that change their subtype as well? I've seen different opinions, but nothing supported by rules yet. Apparently traits change but features stay the same; but what about the whole "augmented subtype" thing?

In the end, does a Half-Fey Silverbrow Human have the Dragonblood subtype or not?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Depends on the subtype. Some of them specifically mention what can have them. If Dragonblooded says they are humanoids, then adding Half-Fey would get rid of Dragonblooded. If it doesn't specify, then you retain Dragonblooded.

[Gotterdammerung]

If a race with a subtype (Silverbrow Human: Dragonblood subtype) also has an inherited template that changes their type (Half-Fey: Type--> Fey), does that change their subtype as well? I've seen different opinions, but nothing supported by rules yet. Apparently traits change but features stay the same; but what about the whole "augmented subtype" thing?

In the end, does a Half-Fey Silverbrow Human have the Dragonblood subtype or not?

When a template changes a creatures type, they gain the subtype Augmented. In this situation your final type would be Fey (augmented humaniod (human, dragonblood))

Another example would be a lvl 10 human renegade mastermaker becomes a living construct. His final type is Living construct (augmented humanoid (human)).


Sub-types don't go away unless the template itself says so. Their original type gains the augmented descriptor and becomes a subtype. They continue to modify the appropriate type or sub-type. (yes a sub-type can modify another sub-type which in turn modifies your type.)

[Unusual Muse]

When a template changes a creatures type, they gain the subtype Augmented. In this situation your final type would be Fey (augmented humaniod (human, dragonblood))

Another example would be a lvl 10 human renegade mastermaker becomes a living construct. His final type is Living construct (augmented humanoid (human)).


Sub-types don't go away unless the template itself says so. Their original type gains the augmented descriptor and becomes a subtype. They continue to modify the appropriate type or sub-type. (yes a sub-type can modify another sub-type which in turn modifies your type.)

Thanks! Can you point me to where this is spelled out in the book(s) so I can show it to my group?

[Gotterdammerung]

Thanks! Can you point me to where this is spelled out in the book(s) so I can show it to my group?

Yes i can quite easily point it out. I recently looked up the information to refute an argument that stated since Renegade mastermaker changes you to construct, then you are no longer human and lose the benefit of the dragonmark of making feats. This statement is false because of the aforementioned rules which can be found on page 291 of the monster manuel under "size and type", and page 295 under "humanoid", and page 297 under "Subtype- Augmented". These rules explain that when renegade mastermaker becomes a living construct he also acquires the augmented subtype modifying his original type. His original type is Humanoid(human). This leaves us with

Living Construct ([Humanoid (Human)] (Augmented))

So he is still human and therefore does not lose access to his human prerequisite feats.

[Unusual Muse]

Yes i can quite easily point it out. I recently looked up the information to refute an argument that stated since Renegade mastermaker changes you to construct, then you are no longer human and lose the benefit of the dragonmark of making feats. This statement is false because of the aforementioned rules which can be found on page 291 of the monster manuel under "size and type", and page 295 under "humanoid", and page 297 under "Subtype- Augmented". These rules explain that when renegade mastermaker becomes a living construct he also acquires the augmented subtype modifying his original type. His original type is Humanoid(human). This leaves us with

Living Construct ([Humanoid (Human)] (Augmented))

So he is still human and therefore does not lose access to his human prerequisite feats.

Excellent! Thanks for your help.

[Unusual Muse]

Okay, another question: Am I correct in my understanding that a Half-Fey Silverbrow Human would no longer have Feather Fall 1x/day and Disguise Aptitude, but would instead have Low-Light Vision and Simple Weapon proficiencies?

[Flickerdart]

Okay, another question: Am I correct in my understanding that a Half-Fey Silverbrow Human would no longer have Feather Fall 1x/day and Disguise Aptitude, but would instead have Low-Light Vision and Simple Weapon proficiencies?
No. Why would he lose them? Half-Fey doesn't take away anything from the base race.

[Urpriest]

Okay, another question: Am I correct in my understanding that a Half-Fey Silverbrow Human would no longer have Feather Fall 1x/day and Disguise Aptitude, but would instead have Low-Light Vision and Simple Weapon proficiencies?

No. Nothing in the Half-Fey template specifies that those abilities are lost.

[Unusual Muse]

No. Why would he lose them? Half-Fey doesn't take away anything from the base race.

The Monster Manual says that "unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type." I read this as the new Traits replacing the old ones. Incorrect?

[Gotterdammerung]

You only lose what the template specifically says you lose. And you only replace what the template specifically says to replace.

[Flickerdart]

The Monster Manual says that "unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type." I read this as the new Traits replacing the old ones. Incorrect?
Incorrect. "Traits of the old type" specifically refers to what's gained from the creature's creature type, not just all abilities it happens to have.

[Unusual Muse]

Incorrect. "Traits of the old type" specifically refers to what's gained from the creature's creature type, not just all abilities it happens to have.

Okay, so the Low-Light Vision and weapon proficiencies of the Fey Type are explicitly labeled as Traits, while Hit Dice, Saves, and Skill Points are explicitly labeled as Features, per the SRD. The question then is: Are the Feather Fall SLA and Disguise Aptitude of the Silverbrow human Traits or Features?

[Phelix-Mu]

Okay, so the Low-Light Vision and weapon proficiencies of the Fey Type are explicitly labeled as Traits, while Hit Dice, Saves, and Skill Points are explicitly labeled as Features, per the SRD. The question then is: Are the Feather Fall SLA and Disguise Aptitude of the Silverbrow human Traits or Features?

I think you only lose traits or w/e of the humanoid type, not your racial stuff. Look up the humanoid type in the glossary of MM. Off the top of my head, you don't lose much.

[Flickerdart]

Okay, so the Low-Light Vision and weapon proficiencies of the Fey Type are explicitly labeled as Traits, while Hit Dice, Saves, and Skill Points are explicitly labeled as Features, per the SRD. The question then is: Are the Feather Fall SLA and Disguise Aptitude of the Silverbrow human Traits or Features?
They are neither traits nor features. They are abilities granted by the Silverbrow Human race, not the Humanoid type.

[Unusual Muse]

They are neither traits nor features. They are abilities granted by the Silverbrow Human race, not the Humanoid type.

Got it. Thanks all!