Reflexing away from an attack

[sambouchah]

So in my group we always argue about what you can and can't reflex away from. It gets very bothersome and time consuming. So what is a player capable of reflexing out of? Is it only touch attacks made by someone without improved unarmed strike, can you reflex a bite from a beholder, can you reflex out of a reach attack?

One player suggests anything that would allow reflex in reality would allow a save in D&D, I think it can only be certain things like a drunk barbarian swinging an unimproved fist at you or a sleepy bear half heatedly batting at you to go away or a spell that says a reflex is allowed. I accept that it makes sense to reflex away/out of anything but is that how the game is written? We eventually search for it at the end of the argument and haven't found anything too useful(mainly because we've been fighting for 30 minutes and are sick of it).

Thanks so so much for settling our futile stupidity, Sam

[Urpriest]

As in most games, you only get to use mechanics when the game says you can. There are specific things, mostly spells, that call for Reflex saves. Anything else uses AC, or similar. That's why Dex bonus is in AC in the first place.

[The Dark Fiddler]

None of the above, for the most part. The only things that allow reflex saves are spells (like fireball), special abilities (like a dragon's breath), and maybe certain traps (like a pitfall) that explicitly say they do.

If you're up against an attack that your DM is making up, then he has a bit more liberty to decide what should and shouldn't allow a relfex save, but a normal attack will never allow one (except maybe in a corner case or two I'm not aware of).

[lsfreak]

If it doesn't say Reflex save, you don't get one. No Reflexing out of melee attacks, range attacks, or anything else that doesn't explicitly call for a Reflex save. As said, that's what you Dex and dodge bonuses to AC are.

[sambouchah]

As in most games, you only get to use mechanics when the game says you can. There are specific things, mostly spells, that call for Reflex saves. Anything else uses AC, or similar. That's why Dex bonus is in AC in the first place.


None of the above, for the most part. The only things that allow reflex saves are spells (like fireball), special abilities (like a dragon's breath), and maybe certain traps (like a pitfall) that explicitly say they do.

If you're up against an attack that your DM is making up, then he has a bit more liberty to decide what should and shouldn't allow a relfex save, but a normal attack will never allow one (except maybe in a corner case or two I'm not aware of).

Thanks so much for clarifying you guys.

[Barsoom]

As in most games, you only get to use mechanics when the game says you can. There are specific things, mostly spells, that call for Reflex saves. Anything else uses AC, or similar. That's why Dex bonus is in AC in the first place.True, but ..

I have to admit that after 20 years of gaming, it still bugs me that a 2nd level Rogue is better than 1st level Rogue at dodging [I]lightning bolts, and yet both are equally good at dodging arrows. I mean, is there some kind of a different skillset involved at dodging a bolt of lightning which does not apply when a mundane arrow is involved?

[Fouredged Sword]

Check out the defense bonus alternate rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm). It allows characters to get better at dodging as they gain levels. You may like it if you are bothered by that segment of the rules.

It meshes well with armor as DR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm).

[Psyren]

Tell your player to buy a Starmantle, then he can reflex vs. attacks to his heart's content.

[Urpriest]

True, but ..

I have to admit that after 20 years of gaming, it still bugs me that a 2nd level Rogue is better than 1st level Rogue at dodging [I]lightning bolts, and yet both are equally good at dodging arrows. I mean, is there some kind of a different skillset involved at dodging a bolt of lightning which does not apply when a mundane arrow is involved?


Check out the defense bonus alternate rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm). It allows characters to get better at dodging as they gain levels. You may like it if you are bothered by that segment of the rules.

It meshes well with armor as DR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm).

This, and, you don't dodge a lightning bolt. A lightning bolt fills the squares it travels through, just like a fireball (otherwise it's something like a ray, which you can dodge). Reflex saves mean you angle your body so as to take less damage from the surrounding energy, they don't mean you actually get out of the way.

But yeah, D&D in general assumes that AC increases due to magic items while accuracy increases due to skill. It's a silly system that has managed to trip up many an attempt at playing low magic D&D.

[Barsoom]

This, and, you don't dodge a lightning bolt. A lightning bolt fills the squares it travels through, just like a fireball (otherwise it's something like a ray, which you can dodge). Reflex saves mean you angle your body so as to take less damage from the surrounding energy, they don't mean you actually get out of the way.And in case you have Evasion, you angle your body as not to take any damage at all? :smallconfused:

Eh, in my games I'm still narrating successful reflex saves with "you duck out of the way in the nick of time, and ..."

[Phelix-Mu]

And in case you have Evasion, you angle your body as not to take any damage at all? :smallconfused:

Eh, in my games I'm still narrating successful reflex saves with "you duck out of the way in the nick of time, and ..."

It gets even sillier with Improved Evasion. You fail a save and still take only half! Basically you always Reflex half, and on success, Reflex none.

To channel the discussion a bit, it requires no action of any kind to make a Reflex save. It is an effortless response to something that stands to hurt the character. The only thing that stops a Reflex save from being made, as far as I can tell, is the helpless condition. Comments? Clarifications? Contradictions?

[AttilaTheGeek]

Yeah, basically what everyone else said. Touch AC is there for a reason, so I don't give Reflex saves unless it says so.