What is a "devil" by RAW?

[123456789blaaa]

I asked this same question in the simple questions thread. Unfortunately there was some confusion over the topic so I'm making a new thread for it.

The SRD says:


Devils are fiends from lawful evil-aligned planes (the rest of what it says are about most devils, not all of them)

This could mean that "devils" are from those planes in the same way asians are from Asia. It could also mean that any fiend from those planes counts as a devil. I'm not sure which.

I've also heard from the simple questions thread that devils are outsiders from a Lawful Lower Plane that has both the [Lawful] and [Evil] subtypes (I heard the same from another person except the fiend had to be native to the Nine Hells specifically). Unfortunately I couldn't find where it said that since they didn't give specific page numbers (hint hint).

The MM says that devils are fiends from the Nine Hells. This encounters the same problem as the definition in the SRD.

The SRD definition also says:


Devil Traits

Most devils possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
•Immunity to fire and poison.
•Resistance to acid 10 and cold 10.
•See in Darkness (Su): Some devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.
•Summon (Sp): Some devils share the ability to summon others of their kind (the success chance and type of devils summoned are noted in each monster description).
•Telepathy.

Except when otherwise noted, devils speak Infernal, Celestial, and Draconic.

The MM says the same thing except that it says the above are baatezu traits.

I'm pretty lost here. Help would be greatly appreciated.

[Anachronity]

Very specifically, a devil is any outsider with the devil subtype. All printed devils that I know of are Lawful Evil. Baatezu is just a fancy-sounding term for the devil subtype that is used to add flavor.

Edit: my mistake, the subtype is called Baatezu. You can find a detailed description of devils on page 50 of the MM. They live in the Nine Hells of Baator which I assume is where they get Baatezu from.

[Urpriest]

The MM definition is only changed in the SRD to protect product identity (namely, the name Baatezu). Those traits should only apply to Baatezu, and should not apply to other Devils.

Broadly speaking, Devils are indeed Lawful Evil Fiends. The category may be a bit more specific than that, but it is more general than Baatezu, including several non-Baatezu Devils.

Is there a particular devil-based mechanic you are investigating?

[Flickerdart]

Notice that a Kyton, even though it is listed on the Devil entry and has the appropriate subtypes of Evil and Lawful, has none of the Baatezu traits because it isn't Baatezu.

[ArcturusV]

What I find interesting about your first quote there in the opening post is the indication that Lawful Evil planes are themselves inherently corrupting. This could be... interesting. Least to me.

Say a level 20 monk went to hell (Where he obviously belongs for cutting some Faustian Deal to actually make it to level 20 or for bribing the DM). Even if he wasn't "evil", maybe he was some crusader going there to kick Asmodeus in the teeth, whatever. How long does he have to remain there before he's considered a Devil? I mean he's an outsider (Far as I can recall "Fiend" isn't actually a type, just a term used to describe outsiders who come from Evil places). The word "From" is vague enough that being on long term assignment to the plane in question could count as residing there. If your quest to find a kick Asmodeus in the Teeth takes you 15 years do you count as being "From" that plane? Does this make you a devil? Even if you're Lawful Good and were going there to put him down?

[Devils_Advocate]

I'm not sure that "devil" is actually a game-mechanical category. Is anything specifically based on whether a creature is a devil or not? (And if so, what?)

[Ravenica]

In pathfinder it is actually a subtype of outsider defined as such


Devil Subtype: Devils are lawful evil outsiders that hail from the plane of Hell. Devils possess a particular suite of traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).

Immunity to fire and poison.
Resistance to acid 10 and cold 10.
See in Darkness (Su) Some devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.
Summon (Sp) Devils share the ability to summon others of their kind, typically another of their type or a small number of less-powerful devils.
Telepathy.
Except when otherwise noted, devils speak Celestial, Draconic, and Infernal.
A devil's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as lawful and evil for the purpose of resolving damage reduction.

It's a specific subtype so the above mentioned monk question wouldn't happen, it would require a template or some other effect to apply a new subtype... Of course this is only RAW as far as pathfinder is concerned.

more generally they are described as such;
Devil
Masters of corruption and despoilers of purity, devils seek to destroy all things good and drag mortal souls back with them to the depths of Hell.

As the most numerous fiendish occupants of Hell, the various forms of devils are well catalogued by diabolists. Most are known by two names: an evocative title given to the fiends by commoners and folklore, and an obscure, ancient designation spoken by the servants of Hell and those who would seek to deal with the damned.

Born from the foulest of mortal souls—their personalities and memories long since scoured by millennia of torment—would-be devils rise from the masses of suffering souls as lemures, revolting beings of mindless evil potentiality. Only through continued centuries of torture or by the edicts of more powerful devils do these least of devilkind rise to become deadlier fiends, graduating through a pain-wracked metamorphosis dictated by their masters or the infernal whims of Hell's semi-sentient layers. While fiendish lords wield transformation into greater or lesser forms as both prize and punishment, some devils spontaneously rise from particularly evil souls long trapped upon an infernal layer. Thus, although the various diabolical breeds possess recognizable abilities and hold generalized rankings in the great infernal hierarchy, a devil's type alone does not always correspond to a specific tenure of torment or place in the infernal chain of command.

Devils fill the nine layers of Hell, though certain fiends are more common on specific layers than others, their specialized duties or fealty to individual archdevils drawing them to one torturous domain more than others. Although the various types of devils tend to specialize in unique forms of depravity or temptation, the hierarchies of Hell are not without flexibility for uncommon individual talents. Thus, particularly watchful hamatulas might join the ranks of Phlegethon's bone devil inquisitors, while veteran barbazus might serve among the pit fiends of Nessus.

Beyond the pits of Hell, devils often travel to the Material Plane at the summons of evil spellcasters. Quick to bargain and willing to serve mortals to assure their damnation, devils ever obey the letter of their agreements, but serve the whims of Hell foremost. Thus, even the least of devilkind might come to the Material Plane intent on further corrupting souls, cleverly escaping the bonds of their contracts to indulge their own plots, or to further the unspeakable goals of the archdevils of Hell.

The Ranks of Devilkind
Diabolists speak often of the rankings of Hell, the distinctions made between devils that distinguish the foot soldiers from the commanders of Hell's armies. While such divisions mean little to most mortals—a devil being a deadly foe in any incarnation—the hierarchies and nuances of Hell's society carry distinctions vital to the survival of any who would commune with devils. What distinguishes a breed of devils above or below others is more than a matter of brawn, with several cunning types of fiend holding priority over their fundamentally stronger brethren. While a devil's station does not mean it can instantly command every other devil of inferior standing, it does imply which fiends might serve their brethren or hold influence over others.

Below these are the devil races themselves, from the lordly and malevolent pit fiends all the way down to the lowly, malformed lemure.

The Infernal Hierarchy
Listed here, from the absolute weakest devils to the lords of Hell, is the most basic hierarchy of the infernal realm's best-known denizens.

Least Devils: imps, lemures

Lesser Devils: bearded devils (barbazus), erinyes, barbed devils (hamatulas), bone devils (osyluths)

Greater Devils: horned devils (cornugons), ice devils (gelugons), pit fiends

All this is released on Pathfinders PRD Place of finding stuff (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/devil.html)

[Eldonauran]

Say a level 20 monk went to hell (Where he obviously belongs for cutting some Faustian Deal to actually make it to level 20 or for bribing the DM). ... I mean he's an outsider (Far as I can recall "Fiend" isn't actually a type, just a term used to describe outsiders who come from Evil places). ...

Bolded for emphasis. Level 20 monks are NOT OUTSIDERS. They only count as outsiders for spells and other effects.


At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.

[ArcturusV]

Well, then it gets into the muck of what "treated as an outsider" and "an effect" necessarily means. I mean I could see an interpretation where our intrepid monk in that example might get called by some Planar Binding spell where someone was trying to pick up a Devil to bind.

Which would be kinda funny.

But I suppose I could have just said something like an Archon, Deva, Planetar, etc, goes to Hell to kick Asmodeus's teeth in. I just picked monk because it was the first PC class that jumped to mind which had Outsider related stuff. So my bad on that.

[123456789blaaa]

Very specifically, a devil is any outsider with the devil subtype. All printed devils that I know of are Lawful Evil. Baatezu is just a fancy-sounding term for the devil subtype that is used to add flavor.

Edit: my mistake, the subtype is called Baatezu. You can find a detailed description of devils on page 50 of the MM. They live in the Nine Hells of Baator which I assume is where they get Baatezu from.

I know of that page actually. It specifically says that the Baatezu are only the largest group of devils (see kytons as an example of a non-devil Baatezu).


The MM definition is only changed in the SRD to protect product identity (namely, the name Baatezu). Those traits should only apply to Baatezu, and should not apply to other Devils.

Broadly speaking, Devils are indeed Lawful Evil Fiends. The category may be a bit more specific than that, but it is more general than Baatezu, including several non-Baatezu Devils.

Is there a particular devil-based mechanic you are investigating?

Oh yeah. Forgot about that :smallredface:.

I am attempting to find a way (preferably a non-terrible one) to become a devil in order to qualify for the Mark of X feats (and their prequisite feat Brand of the Nine Hells) from the FCII.

These feats are criminally overlooked because they require you to be a devil. Suprisingly some of them are actually quite interesting, flavorfull and even powerful!. I would like to play around with them and present them to the optimization community for ideas.


I'm not sure that "devil" is actually a game-mechanical category. Is anything specifically based on whether a creature is a devil or not? (And if so, what?)

See above.


Notice that a Kyton, even though it is listed on the Devil entry and has the appropriate subtypes of Evil and Lawful, has none of the Baatezu traits because it isn't Baatezu.

Can you give a page number for that definition? I've been looking all through my books and can't find it.


What I find interesting about your first quote there in the opening post is the indication that Lawful Evil planes are themselves inherently corrupting. This could be... interesting. Least to me.

Say a level 20 monk went to hell (Where he obviously belongs for cutting some Faustian Deal to actually make it to level 20 or for bribing the DM). Even if he wasn't "evil", maybe he was some crusader going there to kick Asmodeus in the teeth, whatever. How long does he have to remain there before he's considered a Devil? I mean he's an outsider (Far as I can recall "Fiend" isn't actually a type, just a term used to describe outsiders who come from Evil places). The word "From" is vague enough that being on long term assignment to the plane in question could count as residing there. If your quest to find a kick Asmodeus in the Teeth takes you 15 years do you count as being "From" that plane? Does this make you a devil? Even if you're Lawful Good and were going there to put him down?

I'm just as lost as you are :smallfrown:.

You know...isn't the FCII the primary source for devils? That would mean tha if we could get a definition from it that definition would trump all the others and we wouldn't have to muddle through all these contradictions.

[Doxkid]

'Devil' can be used to describe any Lawful Evil outsider from Lawful/Evil planes. It's not going to be accurate all the time though, in the same way that you could call every dog you see a Labrador without all of them actually being of that breed.

You have the definite labs who have been bred from labs who were also bred from labs. Those are the monsters with the Devil or Baatezu types.

Then you get Mutts who arekinda Labradors, but not really Labs; they either look like labs, or have lab blood...but a breeder would kill you in front of your parents and their priest if you dared call such a 'mutt' a "lab". In this analogy, those dogs are things like barghests and whatnot that you'll find in those planes.

Then you have Angels who happened to be fighting down there. Those are goats that happened to be standing near the dogs from earlier.

[123456789blaaa]

'Devil' can be used to describe any Lawful Evil outsider from Lawful/Evil planes. It's not going to be accurate all the time though, in the same way that you could call every dog you see a Labrador without all of them actually being of that breed.

You have the definite labs who have been bred from labs who were also bred from labs. Those are the monsters with the Devil or Baatezu types.

Then you get Mutts who arekinda Labradors, but not really Labs; they either look like labs, or have lab blood...but a breeder would kill you in front of your parents and their priest if you dared call such a 'mutt' a "lab". In this analogy, those dogs are things like barghests and whatnot that you'll find in those planes.

Then you have Angels who happened to be fighting down there. Those are goats that happened to be standing near the dogs from earlier.

Source please. The title of the thread does say "by RAW". If I wanted fluff I'd ask Afroakuma.

[Flickerdart]

Can you give a page number for that definition? I've been looking all through my books and can't find it.
Definition of what? I'm saying that although a Kuton is a devil (it's Lawful, Evil, and is listed under Devil) it is not Baatezu because it lacks their traits.

[Urpriest]

Definition of what? I'm saying that although a Kuton is a devil (it's Lawful, Evil, and is listed under Devil) it is not Baatezu because it lacks their traits.

To elaborate: if a creature is in the Devil entry, it is a Devil. This is a sufficient condition, but perhaps not a necessary one.

[Talderas]

Here's some things that we know about devils.

Devils will have a home plane that is Lawful Evil aligned.
All devils are fiends.
Not all lawful evil fiends are devils.
Some devils are baatezu.
Not all baatezu are devils.
Any creature who is listed under the devil entry in a MM is a devil.

There's at least three criteria for what makes something a devil and we only know two. The two that we know is that you must be a fiend and your homeplane must be lawful evil aligned. There is certainly a third criteria that must be met since not all fiends are devils.

[123456789blaaa]

Definition of what? I'm saying that although a Kuton is a devil (it's Lawful, Evil, and is listed under Devil) it is not Baatezu because it lacks their traits.

You specifically mentioned the [Lawful] and [Evil] subtypes. At least two people have mentioned those subtypes as required for a being to be a devil (along with either being from a Lawfull Lower Plane or the Nine Hells specifically). I cannot however find this definition anywhere.

[KillianHawkeye]

To elaborate: if a creature is in the Devil entry, it is a Devil. This is a sufficient condition, but perhaps not a necessary one.

QFT. The way to know if a creature is a devil is if it's listed under the devil section of a monster book or has the word "devil" in its name. Or if it's a baatezu, since all baatezus are a type of devil.

That is all.

[Flickerdart]

You specifically mentioned the [Lawful] and [Evil] subtypes. At least two people have mentioned those subtypes as required for a being to be a devil (along with either being from a Lawfull Lower Plane or the Nine Hells specifically). I cannot however find this definition anywhere.
Creatures native to a Lawful Evil plane automatically have the subtypes (which is described in the entries for the subtypes). Being native to a Lawful Evil plane is one of the requirements from being a devil.

[Urpriest]

Not all baatezu are devils.


Huh? Have an example to back this up? I would certainly assume all baatezu are devils, and I've never encountered one that wasn't.

As for FCII being the primary source on devils, unfortunately that's not how primary source rules work. Primary source rules only apply to the PHB/DMG/MM, and their only use is to supply arguments to Curmudgeon. They have no other useful applications.

[123456789blaaa]

QFT. The way to know if a creature is a devil is if it's listed under the devil section of a monster book or has the word "devil" in its name. Or if it's a baatezu, since all baatezus are a type of devil.

That is all.

My assumption is that if we can find a definition of devil, than everything that fits that definition will be a devil even if it is not explicity said.


Creatures native to a Lawful Evil plane automatically have the subtypes (which is described in the entries for the subtypes). Being native to a Lawful Evil plane is one of the requirements from being a devil.

Where does it say that being native to a Lawful Evil plane is one of the requirements from being a devil? The closest thing I can think of is the MM which says that devils are "from" the Nine Hells.

[Phelix-Mu]

It might be instructive, but maybe not crystal clear RAW reading, to look at the larger group of fiends, remove all other known types, and then arrive at a subset that includes devils + unknown fiends.

Problems with this approach:

1.) "Fiend" is even less defined than "devil," AFAIK.

2.) Infinite planes.

3.) A possible distinction between LE aligned fiends, fiends from Lawful planes, fiends from Evil planes, and fiends from LE aligned planes. It's not clear to me that all devils originate in the Nine Hells of Baator, though I'm not sure why it's not clear to me. Let me posit a hypothetical LE god not residing in the Nine Hells that is served by devils...theoretically those devils don't need to be imported from Baator by said god, though I'm not sure that it is within the power of all gods to create a creature type from scratch. Urghh....

So, um, was I trying to clear this up somehow...? Right, the larger group of fiends minus all other known fiends equals devils plus unknown fiends. Great, not as useful as I'd hoped.

I think it is also worth mentioning that the Portal Towns in the Outlands are also referenced as being populated by devils.

If we take it that devils must originate on Baator, then we can look at the process by which known devils come into being, the Maggot Pit in Fiendish Codex II being the easiest-to-locate example of the process. There are other processes, but RAW for these is going to be a bit of a goose-chase, and some will prove more or less apocryphal, holdovers from earlier editions.

Sadly, I think we need to look into an issue with "devils originate on Baator" since it seems to me that some beings that are fallen celestials may then have transformed into devils. My brain is beset by a bunch of third party settings where The Fall and similar quasi-biblical events led to events x and y in the history of the Nine Hells.

Finally, to cap off this mostly unhelpful post, I would direct you to the rejkar critter in MM3. These are outsiders originating in the Nine Hells that lack either the evil or lawful subtype, and are explicitly not devils. Also note, before the rise of Glasya, the Hag Countess was outsider of Archduchess rank, but not a devil (a night hag).

Was any of this helpful? (Rate 1 to 10, with 1=extremely unhelpful, 10=extremely helpful.)

[Flickerdart]

Where does it say that being native to a Lawful Evil plane is one of the requirements from being a devil? The closest thing I can think of is the SRD definition that says devils are "from" those planes and the MM which says that devils are "from" the Nine Hells.
When you are "from" somewhere, it's because you are native to that place. A creature born elsewhere but settling in the Hells gains the [Extraplanar] subtype, and is not actually "from" that place.

[123456789blaaa]

It might be instructive, but maybe not crystal clear RAW reading, to look at the larger group of fiends, remove all other known types, and then arrive at a subset that includes devils + unknown fiends.

Problems with this approach:

1.) "Fiend" is even less defined than "devil," AFAIK.

2.) Infinite planes.

3.) A possible distinction between LE aligned fiends, fiends from Lawful planes, fiends from Evil planes, and fiends from LE aligned planes. It's not clear to me that all devils originate in the Nine Hells of Baator, though I'm not sure why it's not clear to me. Let me posit a hypothetical LE god not residing in the Nine Hells that is served by devils...theoretically those devils don't need to be imported from Baator by said god, though I'm not sure that it is within the power of all gods to create a creature type from scratch. Urghh....

So, um, was I trying to clear this up somehow...? Right, the larger group of fiends minus all other known fiends equals devils plus unknown fiends. Great, not as useful as I'd hoped.

I think it is also worth mentioning that the Portal Towns in the Outlands are also referenced as being populated by devils.

If we take it that devils must originate on Baator, then we can look at the process by which known devils come into being, the Maggot Pit in Fiendish Codex II being the easiest-to-locate example of the process. There are other processes, but RAW for these is going to be a bit of a goose-chase, and some will prove more or less apocryphal, holdovers from earlier editions.

Sadly, I think we need to look into an issue with "devils originate on Baator" since it seems to me that some beings that are fallen celestials may then have transformed into devils. My brain is beset by a bunch of third party settings where The Fall and similar quasi-biblical events led to events x and y in the history of the Nine Hells.

Finally, to cap off this mostly unhelpful post, I would direct you to the rejkar critter in MM3. These are outsiders originating in the Nine Hells that lack either the evil or lawful subtype, and are explicitly not devils. Also note, before the rise of Glasya, the Hag Countess was outsider of Archduchess rank, but not a devil (a night hag).

Was any of this helpful? (Rate 1 to 10, with 1=extremely unhelpful, 10=extremely helpful.)

Honesty compels me to give you a 2. Sorry :smallfrown:. You get a 9 for effort.


When you are "from" somewhere, it's because you are native to that place. A creature born elsewhere but settling in the Hells gains the [Extraplanar] subtype, and is not actually "from" that place.

To my knowledge this is not stated anywhere in the DnD rules. This means we need to look at the RL definition. From Dictionary.com:


From

preposition
1.
(used to specify a starting point in spatial movement): a train running west from Chicago.

2.
(used to specify a starting point in an expression of limits): The number of stores will be increased from 25 to 30.

3.
(used to express removal or separation, as in space, time, or order): two miles from shore; 30 minutes from now; from one page to the next.

4.
(used to express discrimination or distinction): to be excluded from membership; to differ from one's father.

5.
(used to indicate source or origin): to come from the Midwest; to take a pencil from one's pocket.

Only one of those is close to what you said.

I know I'm being nitpicky but I'm trying to stick as closely to RAW as possible.

[Flickerdart]

Only one of those is close to what you said.
Yeah, and the other four don't make sense in the context at all. A devil is different from the Hells? A devil is excluded from the Hells?

[Phelix-Mu]

Honesty compels me to give you a 2. Sorry :smallfrown:. You get a 9 for effort.

I know I'm being nitpicky but I'm trying to stick as closely to RAW as possible.

I'm surprised I got a 2, frankly. The RAW on this matter seems fairly disjointed. I think we may have gotten something going with the subtypes thing, though, but it relies on fiend being a reading of outsider from the lower planes, and I have no idea how RAW that is.

Rejkar was really the most useful thing I said, since it proves that creatures from the Nine Hells aren't all devils (as well as that not all critters from the Nine Hells have the Lawful and/or Evil subtypes).

If you could pair this with an example of a creature that is a devil but which didn't originate in the Nine Hells, then you've stripped away any small significance that "devil" has as a game term. You might then pick any creature of significant power and evil that devotes themselves to Hell and then give them one of the Marks, since lack of game definition renders "devil" into a fluff requirement. The rest can be jury-rigged with backstory.

[KillianHawkeye]

My assumption is that if we can find a definition of devil, than everything that fits that definition will be a devil even if it is not explicity said.

That is not how naming things works.

[Hiro Protagonest]

That is not how naming things works.

Yeah. "Large four-legged creature with fur, pointy ears, and sharp teeth" is a description of a German shepherd. It's also a description of lions and snow leopards. Does that make big cats German shepherds? All German shepherds big cats? Or both?

[Devils_Advocate]

Looking at the other fiends with the Lawful and Evil subtypes, I notice that hell hounds are described as being "from the plane of Acheron", although they're typically found in Baator (i.e. that's what's listed as their Environment, in case their name wasn't enough of a hint ;) ) (http://xkcd.com/541/).

So it looks like "from" in this context indicates a species's plane of origin, rather than the plane on which a typical member of the species originates. So hell hounds, for example, would not qualify as devils.

That the hell hound, barghest, and achaierai aren't listed under "Devil" also implies that they aren't devils.


"Fiend" is even less defined than "devil," AFAIK.
The description of the Evil subtype says "Evil outsiders are also called fiends" (MM p. 308). "Evil outsiders" should probably be taken to mean "outsiders with the Evil subtype"... not only here, but probably pretty much anywhere where the phrase appears in the rules. Holy water really shouldn't work against evil aasimar or even evil tieflings, though by an absurdly literal reading of the rules it works against both. (Planetouched probably shouldn't be classified as outsiders either, but that's a separate issue.)


I am attempting to find a way (preferably a non-terrible one) to become a devil in order to qualify for the Mark of X feats (and their prequisite feat Brand of the Nine Hells) from the FCII.
Did you read the "Special" section of the Brand of the Nine Hells feat description? There is a way for nondevils to qualify, though it requires special DM permission for a player character.

I thought I'd point that out just in case you missed it.

[Phelix-Mu]

So an example of a devil that originated outside the Nine Hells would provide a counterexample to the "from the Nine Hells" bit. Not sure that you could find one without venturing into unique devils, though, and that is not exactly the territory you are looking for.

There are those wraiths that are captive in Dis. But they are the imprisoned souls of mortals, IIRC, so not exactly devils. I believe that there is reference somewhere to mortals of great malevolence occasionally skipping the larva/lemure stage and moving directly to fiend-status, retaining their mortal memories and such. 90% chance that this is 2e that I am remembering, though.

Hmm, quite the puzzle. As far as background text on devils, the only places that I can think of are Miniature's Handbook, Manual of the Planes, Fiend Folio, BoVD, FCII, and some likely redundant text in each of the Monster Manuals. I glance over what I have around tonight.

[The Viscount]

As Ur-Priest said, there is a simple thing that all devils have in common. They are all listed under the description for "devil" in the book in which they are found.

Also, although it has been mentioned that not all denizens of the Nine Hells are devils, I do not know of any devils that are not from the Nine Hells.

[afroakuma]

As I said when this was tried with "demon;" neither term is given a fixed definition. You can't just fill in a checklist to be considered a devil/demon. If you shape your ears to points, adopt a condescending attitude and hug a tree, you're not suddenly an elf - you're just from Vancouver.

Similarly, although devils have certain traits, possession of those traits does not make one a devil. You can't assemble some hodgepodge of [Lawful], [Evil] and appropriate resistances and immunities and take on the nature of a devil, nor by RAW (that is, in crunch, not fluff) can you snap the pieces into place and take on what is ultimately a fluff designator. Your choices are to either play something that is unambiguously referred to as "a devil" (read: anything appearing in a Devil entry) or asking your DM to waive the prerequisite.

[Spuddles]

Doesn't FC2 have an exhaustive list of LE outsiders and their listing as lesser devil, great devil, or -?

I feel like that book would have the best description of what a devil is.


Well, then it gets into the muck of what "treated as an outsider" and "an effect" necessarily means. I mean I could see an interpretation where our intrepid monk in that example might get called by some Planar Binding spell where someone was trying to pick up a Devil to bind.

Which would be kinda funny.

But I suppose I could have just said something like an Archon, Deva, Planetar, etc, goes to Hell to kick Asmodeus's teeth in. I just picked monk because it was the first PC class that jumped to mind which had Outsider related stuff. So my bad on that.

It's pretty clear that a monk is treated as an outsider for the purpose of ressurection & charm person, but doesn't gain prof with all martial weapons or 60ft of darkvision via that particular clause.


Here's some things that we know about devils.

Devils will have a home plane that is Lawful Evil aligned.
All devils are fiends.
Not all lawful evil fiends are devils.
Some devils are baatezu.
Not all baatezu are devils.
Any creature who is listed under the devil entry in a MM is a devil.

There's at least three criteria for what makes something a devil and we only know two. The two that we know is that you must be a fiend and your homeplane must be lawful evil aligned. There is certainly a third criteria that must be met since not all fiends are devils.

Pretty sure all baatezu are devils.


Honesty compels me to give you a 2. Sorry :smallfrown:. You get a 9 for effort.



To my knowledge this is not stated anywhere in the DnD rules. This means we need to look at the RL definition. From Dictionary.com:



Only one of those is close to what you said.

I know I'm being nitpicky but I'm trying to stick as closely to RAW as possible.

I think the rules are in manual of the planes or maybe planar handbook. I recollect reading a similar rule somewhere.

[Talderas]

Where does it say that being native to a Lawful Evil plane is one of the requirements from being a devil? The closest thing I can think of is the MM which says that devils are "from" the Nine Hells.

That's where it says they must be from a Lawful Evil plane. Realize that the PHB/DMG/MM describe the Greyhawk world. That's why in the SRD you see the spell Mage's Disjunction while it's Mordekainen's Disjunction in the PHB. Baator does not need to exist in all campaign worlds so either devils only exist in campaign worlds that include Baator (which is silly) or devils reside and have as their homeplane a lawful evil aligned outer plane.

[123456789blaaa]

Not sure if I'm explaining good. Am tired.


Yeah, and the other four don't make sense in the context at all. A devil is different from the Hells? A devil is excluded from the Hells?

The first one seems to fit. By that definition a being that visited the Hells and then went back home would be "from" the Hells.

Besides, even if we go by the last definition...wait, urg. If a human is born on a different plane are they considered a native to that plane?


That is not how naming things works.


Yeah. "Large four-legged creature with fur, pointy ears, and sharp teeth" is a description of a German shepherd. It's also a description of lions and snow leopards. Does that make big cats German shepherds? All German shepherds big cats? Or both?


As I said when this was tried with "demon;" neither term is given a fixed definition. You can't just fill in a checklist to be considered a devil/demon. If you shape your ears to points, adopt a condescending attitude and hug a tree, you're not suddenly an elf - you're just from Vancouver.

Similarly, although devils have certain traits, possession of those traits does not make one a devil. You can't assemble some hodgepodge of [Lawful], [Evil] and appropriate resistances and immunities and take on the nature of a devil, nor by RAW (that is, in crunch, not fluff) can you snap the pieces into place and take on what is ultimately a fluff designator. Your choices are to either play something that is unambiguously referred to as "a devil" (read: anything appearing in a Devil entry) or asking your DM to waive the prerequisite.

I was assuming the term "devil" was a term used to classify beings instead of being a race of beings themselves. For example Afro, when I asked what a "Fiend" was you said:


It's sort of a nebulous term, but the generally understood rule of thumb is as follows:

• Outsider with the Evil subtype
• Above-animal intelligence
• Is "of" a Lower Plane (Acheron, Baator, Gehenna, Hades, Carceri, the Abyss, Pandemonium) - that is, it is born of/native to the plane, rather than a creation of a deity that resides there.

So if you meet all those criteria then you are a "fiend". I was assuming the term "devil" was like that.




The description of the Evil subtype says "Evil outsiders are also called fiends" (MM p. 308). "Evil outsiders" should probably be taken to mean "outsiders with the Evil subtype"... not only here, but probably pretty much anywhere where the phrase appears in the rules. Holy water really shouldn't work against evil aasimar or even evil tieflings, though by an absurdly literal reading of the rules it works against both. (Planetouched probably shouldn't be classified as outsiders either, but that's a separate issue.)


Did you read the "Special" section of the Brand of the Nine Hells feat description? There is a way for nondevils to qualify, though it requires special DM permission for a player character.

I thought I'd point that out just in case you missed it.

I'm trying to look at RAW only here, since this speculation isn't for an actual game.

And yes, I saw it. I'll do it as a last resort but I really hate relying on DM Fiat.


That's where it says they must be from a Lawful Evil plane. Realize that the PHB/DMG/MM describe the Greyhawk world. That's why in the SRD you see the spell Mage's Disjunction while it's Mordekainen's Disjunction in the PHB. Baator does not need to exist in all campaign worlds so either devils only exist in campaign worlds that include Baator (which is silly) or devils reside and have as their homeplane a lawful evil aligned outer plane.

RAW is often silly.

[Urpriest]

One useful guideline: if the creature described comes from a book that has a devil entry, and is not found in that devil entry, then it is not a devil.

[Spuddles]

That's where it says they must be from a Lawful Evil plane. Realize that the PHB/DMG/MM describe the Greyhawk world. That's why in the SRD you see the spell Mage's Disjunction while it's Mordekainen's Disjunction in the PHB. Baator does not need to exist in all campaign worlds so either devils only exist in campaign worlds that include Baator (which is silly) or devils reside and have as their homeplane a lawful evil aligned outer plane.

Actually, the names are removed in the SRD for the same reason illithids are- they're proprietary.

And Baator isn't the only lawful evil plane in the greyhawk/planescape cosmology- there's also Acheron.

[Flickerdart]

The first one seems to fit. By that definition a being that visited the Hells and then went back home would be "from" the Hells.
By your very own argument, that's only one of five, so it must be false.

[123456789blaaa]

By your very own argument, that's only one of five, so it must be false.

I'm not trying to say that the one I pointed out is the correct one and that the others are wrong. I'm saying we shouldn't rule it out when discussing the definition of "from" within the context of this discussion since it makes sense.

The other 3 do not make sense within the context of this discussion and thus we can ignore them when talking about dicussing devils and native planes and etc.

[KillianHawkeye]

Helpful Tip: stop assuming everything works the way you think it does.

[123456789blaaa]

Helpful Tip: stop assuming everything works the way you think it does.

The whole reason I made this thread was because I wasn't sure of a topic. I know that there are people much smarter and more knowledgable than me on this forum. If one of my assumptions is wrong than I want to know about it and I will try my best to find it out.

Now obviously I believe my assumptions to be correct. Otherwise I wouldn't believe them. This means I need to be convinced. You did not convince me because you simply stated something and didn't provide any explanation. Why should I have believed you more than a guy who said the opposite?

Furthermore, it's not just how I think it works. As you can see from this thread, there are multiple people who didn't say what you said so at least some seem to agree with my assumptions. I also created a thread like this on the minmaxboards and there was only one person over there who said anything like you said (and he thought all devils were Baatezu!). There are also two people who said that a devil was


a outsider from a Lawful Lower Plane that has both the [Lawful] and [Evil] subtypes

Thus seeming to agree with me that "devils" is a term to classify beings. Both of these people are noted posters. The first, Lord Gareth, is a noted poster here on Gitp, and the second, PlzBreakMyCampaign, is a noted poster over on the minmaxboards. I consider both of these people to be trustworthy sources.

Now l looked over the text when you and Afro argued against this and I can see that your guy's interpretation is both valid and probably the correct one. This-along with the fact that Afro is a known expert on this topic--is enough to convince me (I may reverse my stance if somebody can get a source for LG's and PMBC's definition though). I found out this on my own however. You did not say anything to convince me.

I believe I was in the right when I didn't immediately believe what you said because of all this.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's a -really- simple answer to this. FC2 has a nearly exhaustive list of every devil printed before it. If it's not on that list or otherwise listed under a "Devils" heading in a monster section of a book then it's not a devil. The only other possible identifier for a devil is that it's specifically called a devil in its entry somewhere (like the sand devil in sandstorm; one of the few devils -not- on the FC2 list.)

[123456789blaaa]

There's a -really- simple answer to this. FC2 has a nearly exhaustive list of every devil printed before it. If it's not on that list or otherwise listed under a "Devils" heading in a monster section of a book then it's not a devil. The only other possible identifier for a devil is that it's specifically called a devil in its entry somewhere (like the sand devil in sandstorm; one of the few devils -not- on the FC2 list.)

Does the list contain any monsters not previously noted as being devils?

[KillianHawkeye]

LOL, sorry for not being a "noted poster" or a "known expert." It's not my fault if you haven't noticed all the time I waste posting here.

Anyway, if I offended you I apologize. Your continued use of the word assumption got on one of my pet peeves.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Does the list contain any monsters not previously noted as being devils?

A few. The hellfire golem and hellfire wyrm aren't listed explicitly as devils in their original sources. Their roles and natures as agents of the baatezu that were born or created in the nine hells does lend credence to their asignation of the label in-spite of the fact that neither of them is an outsider.

[Cerlis]

Honesty compels me to give you a 2. Sorry :smallfrown:. You get a 9 for effort.



To my knowledge this is not stated anywhere in the DnD rules. This means we need to look at the RL definition. From Dictionary.com:



Only one of those is close to what you said.

I know I'm being nitpicky but I'm trying to stick as closely to RAW as possible.


Dont want to derail the thread, but i suppose this directly applies to WHY you made the thread, rather than the thread itself.

I believe you said that you wanted to know this so you could make a character/creature that uses those feats in which you need to be a devil

I see two possible reasons for this
1) being a DM who has players that want everything to be fair, where "fair" is defined as "RAW"
2)Being a player with a DM who wants everything as RAW.

In both situations you would obey these rules to prevent aggroing the other party, but I imagine that making some work around RAW wont make them any more happy.

based on your questions and alterations of what you are asking based on your last few posts, it seems like you are trying to find some fine print, or rather lack of print which would give you leway. I.E. "Even though its not listed as Devil the only definition in a book of "Devil" is THIS, and since THIS is worded This way, that means this character counts as one and i can TECHNICALLY take the feat.

this is compounded by the fact that i'm 98% positive (and i'm never 99% positive of anything, even my own existance) that if you where to ask the writers of the book they would say they just put the requirement of being a devil in there so they wouldnt have to list the name of every devil in every supliment in the game.

In otherwords you need to be a devil as in one of the creatures that is under Devil, or have some abilitiy or feat that says you count as one.

--------------

I think the best thing is, i could be wrong, but i imagine it is likely there is some book out there, Planar, Book of VD, Fiend folio, ect that probably has a feat that you pick at lvl one to indicate that your Feindish heratige is great enough so that you count as a Devil . So i'd investigate that first, before going the other route.

[123456789blaaa]

LOL, sorry for not being a "noted poster" or a "known expert." It's not my fault if you haven't noticed all the time I waste posting here.

Anyway, if I offended you I apologize. Your continued use of the word assumption got on one of my pet peeves.

You don't have to be a noted poster or a known expert. You simply have to give good points. The only reason I even mentioned those posters was to show that my assumptions were not unfounded. If they had come into the thread and said the things you did than I would have reacted in the exact same way.

Furthermore I was using "noted poster" mostly to show that I wasn't just picking some random person who only posted once on the forums. If you want to consider yourself a noted poster than you can. It doesn't really matter.

I wasn't aware you were a "known expert" on anything. Afro has created mounds of high-quality homebrew and has created two threads in which he answered a very large amount of questions about the planes. If you could link to a few things you have done I would be happy to reconsider.

If you wish to not offend people than it is best not to laugh at them loudly.

Finally, if the "continued use of the word assumption" is one of your pet peeves than tell me why. If what you say makes sense than I will stop.


A few. The hellfire golem and hellfire wyrm aren't listed explicitly as devils in their original sources. Their roles and natures as agents of the baatezu that were born or created in the nine hells does lend credence to their asignation of the label in-spite of the fact that neither of them is an outsider.

So now constructs can be devils? :smallconfused: Wiiiieeerrrd...


Dont want to derail the thread, but i suppose this directly applies to WHY you made the thread, rather than the thread itself.

I believe you said that you wanted to know this so you could make a character/creature that uses those feats in which you need to be a devil

I see two possible reasons for this
1) being a DM who has players that want everything to be fair, where "fair" is defined as "RAW"
2)Being a player with a DM who wants everything as RAW.

In both situations you would obey these rules to prevent aggroing the other party, but I imagine that making some work around RAW wont make them any more happy.

based on your questions and alterations of what you are asking based on your last few posts, it seems like you are trying to find some fine print, or rather lack of print which would give you leway. I.E. "Even though its not listed as Devil the only definition in a book of "Devil" is THIS, and since THIS is worded This way, that means this character counts as one and i can TECHNICALLY take the feat.

this is compounded by the fact that i'm 98% positive (and i'm never 99% positive of anything, even my own existance) that if you where to ask the writers of the book they would say they just put the requirement of being a devil in there so they wouldnt have to list the name of every devil in every supliment in the game.

In otherwords you need to be a devil as in one of the creatures that is under Devil, or have some abilitiy or feat that says you count as one.

--------------

I think the best thing is, i could be wrong, but i imagine it is likely there is some book out there, Planar, Book of VD, Fiend folio, ect that probably has a feat that you pick at lvl one to indicate that your Feindish heratige is great enough so that you count as a Devil . So i'd investigate that first, before going the other route.

You forgot a third reason :smallwink::

3) You're tinkering with this just to see what cool things can be done with it.

I fairly certain that I'm never going to use this in an RL game. If it ever came up I could just ask the DM to remove the requirement (though I like sticking to RAW regardless so I'd probably not do that...). I'm an optimizer and I like sticking to RAW most of the time. It's just how I am :smallsmile:.

I've looked through lots of books and I've never come across a feat like that. Since I already have leads I think I'll follow the route I'm currently following rather than doing the thing you suggest.

[Phelix-Mu]

I did like this discussion. It was like a treasure hunt for RAW! But cooler!

[123456789blaaa]

I did like this discussion. It was like a treasure hunt for RAW! But cooler!

I'm glad :smallbiggrin:.

Right now I've sort of settled on an answer but there's a single avenue left that I'm exploring out of this thread.

It's the " a devil is an outsider with both the [Lawfull] and [Evil] subtypes that is native to Baator" definition that was said by two other posters. I'm currently pming them. If they don't answer I'll cross that out.

[Phelix-Mu]

The whole matter is still rather nebulous, in my mind. While I did like the "master list" fix, whereby creatures under a heading of "devil" or on a list of devils are devils, the whole matter is made kind of weird by the mention of "unique devils" in various places in FC2. The unique devils probably aren't all on the master list, since they aren't even all called out by name in the specific text that mentions them. Since they are called devils, they are devils by the master list type definition (they are called devils, so they are devils), but we know little if anything about their traits, ostensibly preventing any more categorical or concrete definition of what makes a devil a devil.

I also noticed in the process of this discussion that there seemed to be some confusion about the nature of the planes and planar alignments. Several of the planes that tend to be inhabited by Lawful Evil beings are not lawful and evil-aligned planes themselves.

In any case, it's all very interesting, and I hope that you succeed in your further inquiries.