DMM question

[Asteron]

I've seen it mentioned that you can use Extend spell and Persistent spell to make spells last for 48 hours. My question is, do you get to chose the order you apply the feats?

Also, assuming you have the DMM feat for both, what is the turning cost for Persisting and Extend a spell? Is it 8 (1+6 for persist + 1 for extend) or is it 9 [(1+6) for persist + (1+1) for extend]?

[drax75]

I believe its been said but you apply them in what ever way benefits you the most.

hope that answers your question

EDIT: i should be clear (6+1)+1=8

[Curmudgeon]

I've seen it mentioned that you can use Extend spell and Persistent spell to make spells last for 48 hours.
You've seen it mentioned incorrectly, I'm afraid. Each metamagic feat sets the duration, either independently or in relation to the normal duration. You can get either 2x normal, or 24 hours, depending on which metamagic effect is applied last.

[Asteron]

You've seen it mentioned incorrectly, I'm afraid. Each metamagic feat sets the duration, either independently or in relation to the normal duration. You can get either 2x normal, or 24 hours, depending on which metamagic effect is applied last.

Thanks. That's what needed to know.

[drax75]

You've seen it mentioned incorrectly, I'm afraid. Each metamagic feat sets the duration, either independently or in relation to the normal duration. You can get either 2x normal, or 24 hours, depending on which metamagic effect is applied last.

Not sure i agree, i read a lot of other forums that say you can extended a persisted spell to 48 hours. The idea is you decide the order the Meta Magic hits, so first you apply the persist, and then you extend it.

Unless someone has a hard ruling they can quote here. I would say its up to your DM and you to discuss the effects. In my game's i let them stack so a player can have 48 hours worth of buffs and such. I find other ways to limit it.

[Curmudgeon]

Not sure i agree, i read a lot of other forums that say you can extended a persisted spell to 48 hours. The idea is you decide the order the Meta Magic hits, so first you apply the persist ... and you would get a duration of 24 hours.
, and then you extend it.
... and you would get a duration of 2x the normal duration of the spell, completely ignoring the Persistent Spell change.

Unless someone has a hard ruling they can quote here
Benefit: An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. That's not "twice as long as before Extend Spell was applied", but twice the normal duration of the spell.

You always get just what the rules specify, and never what you wish they had said instead.

[drax75]

Wouldn't "normal" be relative to the situation? I mean a persisted spell's duration is "NORMALLY" 24 hours...

Thus twice of the "normal" 24 hours would be 48 hours.

Based on your quote its very vague and open to interpretation. Again i would speak to your DM about it.

[KillianHawkeye]

Wouldn't "normal" be relative to the situation? I mean a persisted spell's duration is "NORMALLY" 24 hours...

No, a persisted spell's duration is extended to 24 hours. There is nothing normal about that.

[lunar2]

similar situation. empower and maximize.

both affect the base spell, not each other.

if you empower a CL 10 fireball, you get 15d6 damage. if you maximize a CL10 fireball, you get 60 damage. if you empower and maximize the same fireball, you get 5d6+60 damage, not 90 damage. the metamagic feats don't stack, they overlap.

[Urpriest]

No, a persisted spell's duration is extended to 24 hours. There is nothing normal about that.

This is the arguable bit, though. Normally, a Persistent Wraithstrike lasts 24 hours. That, normally, is what that particular spell does.

I agree that Empower and Maximize set a precedent...but ideally, if the writers were competent they would have made that precedent explicit.

[KillianHawkeye]

You and I have very different definitions of "normal" then. The normal effect is what you get without the feat. The layout of most feats is pretty specific about this.

[Urpriest]

You and I have very different definitions of "normal" then. The normal effect is what you get without the feat. The layout of most feats is pretty specific about this.

That is what you get without the feat, though. Without applying the Extend feat, Extended Persistent Wraithstrike is just Persistent Wraithstrike.

[KillianHawkeye]

Let me rephrase that: the normal effect is what you get without ANY feats.

[Urpriest]

Let me rephrase that: the normal effect is what you get without ANY feats.

What if the spell is one (like the Necrotic Cyst line) that can only be cast if you have a feat?

[Asteron]

New question here: What are the best spells to persist?

The cleric has Divine Power on himself, and will probably be looking to put Mass Lesser Vigor on the party. He will have 22 turn attempts so that leaves us with one more spell to persist.

[Fouredged Sword]

Righteous Might: Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.

This is a goody as it is a stacking strength bonus, DR, natural armor, and extra con, and a size boost. Nothing to argue with here.

Fell Drain (and Fell Weaken, Fell Shaken, ect) Cloud of Knives.

Nasty debuff that hits once per round. Great for an evil cleric that wants to hang back.

[drax75]

similar situation. empower and maximize.

both affect the base spell, not each other.

if you empower a CL 10 fireball, you get 15d6 damage. if you maximize a CL10 fireball, you get 60 damage. if you empower and maximize the same fireball, you get 5d6+60 damage, not 90 damage. the metamagic feats don't stack, they overlap.

OK, but isnt it written in the definition of the feat in the Book that Max and Empower do not work together?

I do not see any such wording when it comes to Persist and Extend. If they didnt want them to work together they would have written in a blurb next to them like they did with Maximize. No blurb means (imo) their is no hard ruling, which again leaves it to DM and Player to decide.

Am i wrong? So far the only counter point is a poorly worded paragraph about "Normal" cast time's, which is vague ta best really.

[ShurikVch]

the metamagic feats don't stack, they overlap.
Wrong. They stacks just fine.
If not, show us the RAW to prove it.
The epic feat Intensify Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#intensifySpell) says:
You can’t combine the effects of this feat with any other feat that affects the variable, numeric effects of a spell. Why they bother to clarify it if metamagic non-stackable? :smallconfused:

[lunar2]

Wrong. They stacks just fine.
If not, show us the RAW to prove it.
The epic feat Intensify Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#intensifySpell) says: Why they bother to clarify it if metamagic non-stackable? :smallconfused:

if you had actually read my post, you would have seen exactly what i was talking about. the metamagic feats empower spell and maximize spell overlap. they don't stack. empower affects the base spell, maximize affects the base spell, neither affects the other in any way.

[killem2]

if you had actually read my post, you would have seen exactly what i was talking about. the metamagic feats empower spell and maximize spell overlap. they don't stack. empower affects the base spell, maximize affects the base spell, neither affects the other in any way.

This is why I hate issues like this.

Making up a rule when one doesn't exist isn't answering a rules question.

The correct answer to me would be:

Ask your DM. Advise there is no clear rule on how the order of metamagics are applied and ask them to make a judgement call.


However in this sub case:
Maximize Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

[King Atticus]

Righteous Might: Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.

Is it possible to suppress this if you get in a position where the increased size is a detriment or would you have to counter it somehow?

[lunar2]

and i didn't make a rule. i simply pointed out the specific example of empower spell and maximize spell.

Nothing in the PHB contains a general rule that various metamagic feats don't stack. empower and maximize explicitly overlap. the wording of extend spell is the only issue here, because it mentions normal duration, instead of just duration. however, at the time extend spell was the only duration enhancing metamagic feat, so the wording probably doesn't mean anything.

[Gorgondantess]

Is it possible to suppress this if you get in a position where the increased size is a detriment or would you have to counter it somehow?

Wand of Reduce Person should do the trick.

[Synovia]

Let me rephrase that: the normal effect is what you get without ANY feats.


Why? Normal isn't a defined term, so you can't just arbitrarily decide that feats don't count for "normal".

[King Atticus]

Wand of Reduce Person should do the trick.

What if your an not a humanoid? I know there is ring, somewhere, that will effect anything with an intelligence but I don't remember exactly what it's called and its kinda pricey. Any way of reducing an outsider?

[Urpriest]

What if your an not a humanoid? I know there is ring, somewhere, that will effect anything with an intelligence but I don't remember exactly what it's called and its kinda pricey. Any way of reducing an outsider?

The ring and the compression power are basically your only options here. That said, many people forget that Large creatures can squeeze. You don't want to fight while squeezing, but you can get in anywhere a Medium character can (provided that Medium character doesn't have to squeeze, and honestly, how many DMs make dungeons where Medium characters have to squeeze to get in?)

[lunar2]

The ring and the compression power are basically your only options here. That said, many people forget that Large creatures can squeeze. You don't want to fight while squeezing, but you can get in anywhere a Medium character can (provided that Medium character doesn't have to squeeze, and honestly, how many DMs make dungeons where Medium characters have to squeeze to get in?)

those that don't like dealing with large characters.

that said, adamantine pick = never squeeze.