Super Optimized Shield thrower fighter Tier 4 or tier 5?

[silverwolfer]

A super optimized sheild thrower/fighter build, would that be tier 4 or tier 5?

[Ravenica]

Depends if he has any levels in Super Soldier Program :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

Depends on what you mean by "super optimized". Can you kill an enemy with every swing? With a single full attack? Can you kill every enemy you see with a single swing?

[silverwolfer]

Hmm,, well I am just looking over some various builds so am not sure how to answer to be fully honest.

[Blueiji]

The tier system is based off versatility and ability to function in as many situations as possible. Being extremely good at one thing (such as throwing shields), especially if that thing is only relevant in combat, doesn't make for a tier four character.

However, there is the Dungeon Crasher ACF, which is a Fighter option that brings the class to tier 4.

[Urpriest]

It is neither. A Super Optimized Shield thrower would be a character, while the tier system is a classification of classes.

[silverwolfer]

True but just as Blue just said, figher is tier 5, but if you give him the ACF, suddenly he is tier 4? Make him the trip all day and kill it until it gets tired spiked chain build, secures it even more.

[Urpriest]

True but just as Blue just said, figher is tier 5, but if you give him the ACF, suddenly he is tier 4? Make him the trip all day and kill it until it gets tired spiked chain build, secures it even more.

More properly, treating the Fighter+ACFs as if it were a class in its own right makes a Tier 4 class. Once you've got a character with a pile of feats and tactics and choices that sort of analysis can no longer be generalized.

[Spuddles]

Well if you can use your shield to keep yourself safe from a touch attack, an attack targeting a weak save, or open a door, as well as doing mediocre damage, you're probably in tier 3 territory.

[Immabozo]

Your shield better have a red and white target with a white star bullseye. And your name needs to start with "Capt" and end with "MURICA!" or with god as my witness, I will punch a drunk baby. I will get a baby drunk, just so I can punch it.

[chronomatophobe]

But the question is really "If my off-hand shield is an animated shield, can I wield my main-hand shield with BOTH HANDS?"

[Gnaeus]

Urpriest is correct. A character is not really a tier.

That said, we can do more analysis.

1. In general, the tier system assumes equal optimization across the party. Does super-optimized mean that you will be operating on an op level much above your teammates? Or are they high op also? If you are much above them in op-fu, you may be able to operate as if you were higher tier.

2. Tier system is not immune to campaign assumptions. In the case of a heavy shield user, my question will be, in YOUR game, will monsters usually attack the fighter with the shield because he is standing in the front line, or will they ignore him as a non-threat? The answer to that question has a big impact on whether you are useful or useless as a tank.

3. A high power damage dealer is usually around tier 4. A tank is usually somewhere between T4 and 5 depending on what level you are operating at and on campaign assumptions (Yes, Urpriest, Tier system is not based on a certain level, I know, but tanks drop in effectiveness over the level curve is all I'm saying). I don't really know what a super-optimized shield fighter is without an actual build. If it includes leap attack and shock trooper and you just happen to be using a shield as your 2h weapon to bash people in the head, thats closer to T4 than if you are taking defense feats.

I disagree with Spuddles that having a shield that can protect against effects, doing mediocre damage, and bash a door is Tier 3. Monk has all good saves, is great against touch attacks, and has more utility than typical fighter, and lives firmly in T5.

[Spuddles]

You should pick up knockdown. Free trip attempts on your attacks. Half minotaur template is almost always worth it, for the big damage, reach, and size boosts, and con.

It's definitely cheesy, but it pretty much auto-optimizes you with narry an investment.



I disagree with Spuddles that having a shield that can protect against effects, doing mediocre damage, and bash a door is Tier 3. Monk has all good saves, is great against touch attacks, and has more utility than typical fighter, and lives firmly in T5.

This isn't a discussion of unoptimized vanilla melee classes vs perfectly spell optimized spellcasters that have foregone conclusions, though. With the right build, you can get monk to perform at tier 3.

And all those things I listed are the only reason ToB classes are t3. I actually have no idea how people think ToB classes are more than t4, but whatever. Again, it goes back to vanilla base classes. A vanilla warlock sucks- a little UMD optimization & hellfire, and it is at the top of t3. Rainbow warsnake likewise moves warmage from t4 to the upper echelons of t1.

So, if you can get this class to do the stuff that a warblade does- mediocre damage output, iron heart surge, moment of perfect making will save, I use my weapon to open things, and hear the air- welcome to t3 I guess.

An adamantine weapon duplicates pretty much the only out of combat feature worth speaking of (other than a smattering of skills) that ToB classes get. Everything else can be met simply by playing an OP race and gear optimization. Throw half minotaur on something martial and you usually go up about a tier in functionality, thanks to the reach, saves, hp, huge damage etc.

Remember, this is a particular build functioning at a certain tier. We aren't discussing the overall effectiveness of a class by ignoring virtually everything that makes charop worth while. We are taking a character and seeing if it can perform like a vanilla warblade, which honestly isn't that high of a threshold.

[Gnaeus]

This isn't a discussion of unoptimized vanilla melee classes vs perfectly spell optimized spellcasters that have foregone conclusions, though. With the right build, you can get monk to perform at tier 3.

Sure. That build includes Quingong and Hungry Ghost.


And all those things I listed are the only reason ToB classes are t3. I actually have no idea how people think ToB classes are more than t4, but whatever. Again, it goes back to vanilla base classes. A vanilla warlock sucks- a little UMD optimization & hellfire, and it is at the top of t3. Rainbow warsnake likewise moves warmage from t4 to the upper echelons of t1.

So, if you can get this class to do the stuff that a warblade does- mediocre damage output, iron heart surge, moment of perfect making will save, I use my weapon to open things, and hear the air- welcome to t3 I guess.

An adamantine weapon duplicates pretty much the only out of combat feature worth speaking of (other than a smattering of skills) that ToB classes get. Everything else can be met simply by playing an OP race and gear optimization. Throw half minotaur on something martial and you usually go up about a tier in functionality, thanks to the reach, saves, hp, huge damage etc.

Remember, this is a particular build functioning at a certain tier. We aren't discussing the overall effectiveness of a class by ignoring virtually everything that makes charop worth while. We are taking a character and seeing if it can perform like a vanilla warblade, which honestly isn't that high of a threshold.

A vanilla warblade can hand out actions to other party members like candy with white raven tactics, so his turn is as effective as the most effective member of the party, because that is who I am going to give the free turn to.

He can use maneuvers to full attack on a charge, or move as a swift, allowing him damage potential above any other melee class except barbarian. He can take 2 turns in a row or double his base attacks. He gets fighter like bonus feats, but he can change them up if he needs to. (A shield specialist, for example, really is going to feel bad if his shield gets taken away, a warblade can kick backside with a broken chair leg).

For times when damage isn't great, he gets save or lose/suck effects, no save just suck attacks, party repositioning tactical abilities. He has more skill points than a fighter, and his class abilities reward Int as other than a dump stat, so he is better than average at skilly stuff as well.

A T3 character is one who can contribute in almost any situation. A warblade is pretty good at doing that. A fighter or monk usually cannot contribute well in ANY situation, thats tier 5. If focused, they can often be useful in situations that play closely to their strengths, thats tier 4.

[Spuddles]

Ehh, you're still just a chump with a stick, good at using your stick. ToB is bottom of T3. Like absolute bottom.

But regardless, you can still make a build using shields that more or less does the same crap that warblades do, because warblades are round about ways to use swift actions to make up for low numbers.

Like, a full attack is cool and all, but 1) barb 2 and 2) just get single smack damage up high and who cares. Or, you know, use range. Like OP.

Anyway, you haven't really made the case that a warblade is anything more special than a rogue, but with fewer hoops to jump through to get to function properly. While that may be the general case for tier discussion, remember that this is a particular case. The threshhold for playing at a t3 level is quite low, due to ToB inclusion.

[Gnaeus]

I'm not sure if you fundamentally don't understand the tier system, or if you fundamentally don't understand ToB.

Can shield fighter do ANYTHING outside a combat? Probably not. Bad skills off a bad list with no class features. Worse than Warblade.

Can shield fighter do decent damage? Maybe. I haven't seen the "Super optimized build". Maybe as good as warblade giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Does shield fighter have save or lose effects? No. Worse than warblade.

Can shield fighter break action economy? No. Worse than warblade.

Is shield fighter reliant on DM or magic mart to provide specific equipment and replace it if lost/destroyed/stolen? Yes. Worse than warblade.

A character who can do only one thing (fight) and who can only do that in one way (damage) is tier 4 or 5, depending on whether he is good at it or not.



Like, a full attack is cool and all, but 1) barb 2 and 2) just get single smack damage up high and who cares. Or, you know, use range. Like OP.

How exactly are you going to get your single smack damage up close to a warblade, who has the same BAB as the fighter, probably similar strength, but can apply a maneuver to do (for example) 2d6 con damage or +100 hp.

OP hasn't explained his exact build. Is he throwing a bunch of shields? If not, I suspect he will be relying on the Returning property. That means 1 attack per round. A melee who can move then full attack will utterly blow that away. The ranged guy with a returning shield can't move after he throws. And if he loses it, as mentioned, he is kinda screwed.

[Spuddles]

Bro honestly, do you even play ToB?

The standard question for putting something in a tier is like: deliver a message to an underground resistance leader, fight a dragon, get through a trapped dungeon, attend a royal ball.

I think you can see how a beguiler or dread necro actually has class feature answers to 75% of those. A warblade has intimidate, diplomancer, and use stick.

Anyway, a well optimized rogue is T3. "throwing shields" doesn't really preclude you from t3. It entirely depends on your build. If you are familiar with what warblades are capable (more like incapable) of, then that's all you have to meet.

Warblades are great at combat, but the stuff that makes them great, you can mimic largely with a handful of racials, feats, and dips.

REMEMBER TIERS ARE RATED WITHOUT OPTIMIZATION. It's extremely easy to hit warblade level dps and defense. Dragonborn gets you wings. Then you pick up a couple skills.

This is all, of course, ignoring that 15 levels of t1 classes and 5 levels of bloodstorm blade is going to get you one hell of an anything thrower. In other words, given all of 3.5, meeting the bare minimum of warblade competence with a build that throws shields isn't hard.

[Gnaeus]

Bro honestly, do you even play ToB?

The standard question for putting something in a tier is like: deliver a message to an underground resistance leader, fight a dragon, get through a trapped dungeon, attend a royal ball.

I think you can see how a beguiler or dread necro actually has class feature answers to 75% of those. A warblade has intimidate, diplomancer, and use stick.

You are really shooting yourself in the foot here. As you say, 2 of those are delivering a message and attending a ball. The Warblade has both Diplomacy and Intimidate and, unlike the fighter or monk, has the skill points to be good at both. He is Significantly better at those jobs than you are. He isn't quite as versatile as Beguiler or DN, because they live at the TOP of T3. But he is still excellent in melee combat, while at the same time not being useless outside melee combat.



REMEMBER TIERS ARE RATED WITHOUT OPTIMIZATION. It's extremely easy to hit warblade level dps and defense. Dragonborn gets you wings. Then you pick up a couple skills.

That isn't entirely true. Tiers are rated at equivalent levels of optimization. A Vanilla warblade with weapon focus and toughness is compared with a blaster wizard and a fighter with weapon focus and toughness.

Now, if his opti fu is well above his average party optimization level, that is an effective bump. But you don't get to say "If he is as good as worst Warblade evah, he is T3" UNLESS the rest of the party is all operating at the same optimization level as worst Warblade evah.

Finally, DPS isn't the only thing that makes you "good at combat". A charge pounce barbarian may have a vastly higher DPS than the warblade. He is still T4, not T3. Because the warblade has options in combat. Charge/pounce barb is screwed if he can't charge/pounce. Warblade can buff, debuff, break the action economy, move and attack. This is why he is T3, not because he has good DPS. White Raven Tactics, by itself, is more powerful than anything a rogue, fighter, or monk gets throughout his entire career, and that is only one of a Warblade's tools, and you get it at level 5.

[Spuddles]

I am not arguing whether a generic fighter is better than a generic warblade. I am not sure why you are so hung up on strawmen.

I am saying that, using your run-of-the-mill warblade, you can easily build something that throws shields and adequately performs the handful of things a warblade is competent at. Including warblade5/Bloodstorm blade5.

This isn't "make sure we argue about the status quo of classes", it's recognizing what warblade does (not a whole hell of a lot) and coming up with a build that matches it. Fighter10/rogue10 could do it, with proper itemization and feats. And I don't mean a fighter/rogue is a higher tier than warblade, just that with proper optimization, you can get lower tier stuff to play with t3. In fact, unless you're iron heart surging away the sun or playing the white raven tactician cohort of a wizard, the cieling for warblade optimization isn't particularly high. Compare that to warsnake with versatile spellcaster and magical training. A particular bud can have low tier class functioning just fine as a moderately optimized high tier class.

In the case of hitting t3, all you need is marginal melee competence, the ability to not die to everything, and a little mobility. Oh, and diplomacy (though I would rather have UMD). Warblade is t3 because it has such a high floor, unlike warlock.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Bro honestly, do you even play ToB?

I haven't (enough to really count), but I can rattle off pretty much every maneuver with out-of-combat relevance off the top of my head.

Crusader doesn't get any of them, though.

[Gnaeus]

I am not arguing whether a generic fighter is better than a generic warblade. I am not sure why you are so hung up on strawmen.

I am saying that, using your run-of-the-mill warblade, you can easily build something that throws shields and adequately performs the handful of things a warblade is competent at. Including warblade5/Bloodstorm blade5.

Yes. A Warblade does equal a warblade, and they can be made to use shields with little loss in power. OP, however, specified a fighter build.


This isn't "make sure we argue about the status quo of classes", it's recognizing what warblade does (not a whole hell of a lot) and coming up with a build that matches it. Fighter10/rogue10 could do it, with proper itemization and feats.

Probably. Of course, you would spend all your feats and WBL matching a warblade, then the warblade would spend HIS WBL and be better than you again.


And I don't mean a fighter/rogue is a higher tier than warblade, just that with proper optimization, you can get lower tier stuff to play with t3.

Sure. Tiers usually play well within 1 tier of each other. That doesn't make the Rogue or Barbarian a T3, it just means they don't get embarassed in a T3 party.


In the case of hitting t3, all you need is marginal melee competence, the ability to not die to everything, and a little mobility.

Not true at all.

[Spuddles]

I haven't (enough to really count), but I can rattle off pretty much every maneuver with out-of-combat relevance off the top of my head.

Crusader doesn't get any of them, though.

I have DMd for a warblade (level13), two swordsages (level 13 and 20 respectivel), a crusader (level 2) and have myself played a swordsage and a warblade (level 15 & 6).

They all did splendidly in combat because they could use immediate actions to deny being laser beamed by beholders, get to casters via shadowhand, deal with flyers with tiger claw, avoid petrification and fear with diamond mind, and get rid of status effects with iron heart.

But all that stuff can be mimic'd relatively easy by just having higher saves, more ranks in tumble, and a flight mode. What makes the upper tiers so good is stuff like dispel magic, summon horde of angels, teleport, solid fog, etc.

ToB is still, by and large, BMX bandit.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

ToB is still, by and large, BMX bandit.

I'm quite good at my BMX.