Tiers for Incarnum Classes?

[Phelix-Mu]

I will, sometime in the future, be engineering a setting-based historical event that will allow function of Incarnum as a mechanic within my setting, with some liberal refluffing. Got a pretty good hand on it, and I think I did at least as well as the writers of said source book.

My question is mainly for designing NPCs to pioneer/co-pioneer the meldshaper classes in my world. What tier do they fall into? I hear a lot of totemist on these boards, a couple mentions of incarnate, but almost no mention of that other one (to the extent that its name is escaping me atm).

I also have some precedent settings for the emergence of the PC races introduced with the incarnum rules. How do these races fair in terms of playability, synergy with the incarnum rules, and playability outside of incarnum-related stuff?

Thanks for any input you can give. I offered players a chance to take incarnum feats near the end of a long campaign that introduced the existence of incarnum, but no one took me up on it, so I am left with exactly zero experience with how this stuff actually functions in game (I have a rough grasp of the mechanic, mainly since I haven't looked at the book recently).

[Rhaegar14]

Generally, Totemists are considered Tier 3, Incarnates are considered Tier 3 (but a bit lower in the Tier than Totemists), and Soulborn are considered Tier 5.

As for playability of races, Azurin are basically human, but with an extra essentia instead of an extra skill point. They work out fine. I don't have any experience with any of the others.

[Phelix-Mu]

All very helpful so far.


. Dusklings....[scrubbed]

Well, duly noted. I would hasten to add, though, if we are staying away from racial stereotypes, then we are going to have to ditch considerably more than just dusklings.

Actually, I find that fantasy games are actually useful places to debunk irl prejudice by stretching the limits of the imagination and intentionally breaking out of cliches and time-worn modes of thought. I usually run in a mixed race gaming group, and we have occasionally verged into themes that are difficult topics irl; slavery, oppression, racism, and egocentric behaviors are all pretty standard stuff for fantasy. Indeed, this is one of the main reasons I really like fantasy as a genre, because it both is not restricted to reality, but draws heavily on our real life experiences to give texture and depth to a setting.

The most sketchy thing we ever handled was the mental/physical rape of one of the characters by an evil villain, and while it was difficult, it was probably some of the most complex role playing that that player had a chance to participate in. Not for all groups, surely, but a mature group can usually handle mature topics maturely, in a game where that is the accepted atmosphere.

[Psyren]

I also have some precedent settings for the emergence of the PC races introduced with the incarnum rules. How do these races fair in terms of playability, synergy with the incarnum rules, and playability outside of incarnum-related stuff?

Well, outside incarnum they don't do as well, just like psionic races don't function as well without psionic powers and feats. Azurins are strictly worse than Humans without soulmelds/feats to put their essentia in, for instance. (They're literally worse than humans without that - they don't even live as long.)

Skarns do well without Incarnum thanks to their natural weapon. Dusklings are one of the extremely rare 0 LA Fey in the game. And a Rilkan's ability to treat all knowledges as trained comes in handy if they're playing a high-Int class.

[lunar2]

dusklings without other incarnum support have a 35 ft. speed. weird, but potentially useful in a chase or something.

[Phelix-Mu]

If you think you can deal with Dusklings in a mature manner, then go ahead. Personally, they're the one thing in 3.5 that crosses the line from "okay" not "not okay", but YMMV.

I've rolled with BoVD/Book of Erotic Fantasy being pretty standard, and several NPCs with Lichloved. The BBEG in the campaign I was referring to was a mix of the Borg and Jubilex, but massively stronger, and capable of doing the worst of what Taint and Depravity could unleash on the campaign. As I mentioned, rape popped up at least twice in the plot (to characters and major NPCs), serious torture happened several times, mindrape as a plot device, LSD-like hallucinations inspired by psionic succubi, secret magic-induced lycanthropy leading samurai-types to mass murder, my druid NPC brainwashed a drow cleric with narcotics.

A more recent campaign was almost derailed when one of the PCs decided that his quest for money made becoming a drug kingpin the ideal career path. Let's just say that this worked out really, really well for the vampire antagonists.

It all depends on the group, really. I can understand your feelings, though, as some of the stuff that was eventually roped into 3e was a little weird/sketchy, to say the least.

Back on topic, the azurin, if memory serves are the only ones that get the auto-in in my campaign, as the decendents of one of the PCs from said campaign will eventually become azurin.

[Kazyan]

If you were really sorry you'd edit that nonsense out of your post. But I won't hold my breath.

You're right. I'll scrub everything.

[Psyren]

I'll gladly remove the quotes if you do so.

[Psyren]

Moving on:


Thanks for any input you can give. I offered players a chance to take incarnum feats near the end of a long campaign that introduced the existence of incarnum, but no one took me up on it, so I am left with exactly zero experience with how this stuff actually functions in game (I have a rough grasp of the mechanic, mainly since I haven't looked at the book recently).

One way to coax them is to have an NPC - or even an enemy - do some cool stuff with the material. Say, instead of standard zombies in one low-level game, you put them up against some Lost - those work very well as the fast, 28-Days-Later/Left4Dead style of zombie that can get up in your face frighteningly fast.

[Phelix-Mu]

Moving on:



One way to coax them is to have an NPC - or even an enemy - do some cool stuff with the material. Say, instead of standard zombies in one low-level game, you put them up against some Lost - those work very well as the fast, 28-Days-Later/Left4Dead style of zombie that can get up in your face frighteningly fast.

Ah, I do remember that! Hmm, yes, a future campaign for which I've been generating ideas may be just the place for those critters. Mmm, yes. Excellent, Smithers.:smalltongue:

And apologies if I contributed toward any of the awkwardness. I generally like to keep things open, as redacting stuff rubs me the wrong way. I accept w/e standard of non-event posts you wish to set, however, and let us speak of it no more.

Gosh...so mature. I feel like I'm actually surrounded by adults, not on some kind of internet forum.

[Lans]

I would put incarnate at a high tier 4. Give it a little more hp, skills, and base attack and it should make tier 3.

[lunar2]

gestalt incarnate/totemist. that is all.

you fill every chakra, you bind every soulmeld, you max out everything with essentia, including a few incarnum feats, etc. etc.

you, my friend, are a badass.

[Dragonmuncher]

I haven't read the book in a while, but I definitely remember that a carefully made Totemist can be a monster in combat. I don't remember being too impressed with the other two classes, though.

[Psyren]

I haven't read the book in a while, but I definitely remember that a carefully made Totemist can be a monster in combat. I don't remember being too impressed with the other two classes, though.

One benefit to Incarnate is that most of its skill bonuses are Insight - the Totemist meanwhile relies on Competence, which you can pretty easily get just from having a Bard or various magic items around.

Incarnate melds also offer more general utility; trapfinding, flight, healing, ghost touch etc. Totemists tend to be more combat-focused, which makes them a stronger solo class but not as versatile at multiclassing.

[Person_Man]

Totemist and Incarnate are both solid Tier 3, though Incarnate requires a much higher level of rules mastery to get there.


gestalt incarnate/totemist. that is all.

you fill every chakra, you bind every soulmeld, you max out everything with essentia, including a few incarnum feats, etc. etc.

you, my friend, are a badass.

Anything//Incarnate or Anything//Totemist will generally work very well, since soulmelds and chakra binds provide a ton of excellent passive bonuses and always on abilities. But Incarnate//Totemist works poorly.

There are precisely 10 chakra slots. Crown, Feet, Hands, Arms, Brow, Shoulders, Waist, Throat, Heart, Soul. (The Totem chakra is a slotless bind option - every Totemist soulmeld is shaped in some other chakra slot, and can be bound to that slot and/or the Totem chakra slot). You cannot shape or bind more then one soulmeld in each slot unless you take the Double Chakra feat for it. An Incarnate//Totemist gets 18 soulmelds. So you either need to take the Double Chakra feat 8 times, or you waste 8 soulmelds. And the number of soulmelds you can shape is equal to your Constitution score -10. So you'd need a Con of 28 to shape all of them.

Having said that, Incarnate 6//Totemist 6 in a gestalt E6 game would be a melee monster. 10 soulmelds, 4 chakra binds, 10 points of essentia. Even then, you're not going to be able to shape all of your favorite soulmelds, because many of them will overlap into the same slot.

[Piggy Knowles]

One benefit to Incarnate is that most of its skill bonuses are Insight - the Totemist meanwhile relies on Competence, which you can pretty easily get just from having a Bard or various magic items around.

There are a few exceptions, though. Spot in particular is insane for Totemists - they get three soulmelds that boost Spot, each giving a different bonus type and occupying different chakras.

[Bonzai]

Totemists are a strong Melee oriented class. I'm not much for tiers, but they definately are a strong Tier 3.

Incarnates are skill monkies. Typical jacks of all trades, master of none. They are somewhat front loaded, don't scale extremely well, but have insane flexability. As a stand alone, I would place them just under Factotum and Binder. They are not quite as potent as those two, but they are a litteral swiss army nife. The main strength of Incarnates though, is as a dipping class. A single level dip gives you access to a ton of melds, and they are a great stepping stone class for all kinds of bulds.

Soulborn are a weaker version of a Charge variant paladin. They have some nice smite and charge options, bonus feats that help with their seeming lack of essentia, and a small but usefull set of melds to choose from. Their biggest weakness is being unable to swap out melds pre-epic. I know, I've played one. This limits your options further, as you have to stick with your all purpose melds rather than the nice situational melds.

All the Incarnum races have their strong points. Previous posters have mentioned them, so no need to go over them again.

The prestige classes?

Incandescent Champion: It is kind of an odd class. 10hp per lvl, 3/4 bab, Strong Will Save, and great essentia progression. No new binds, and it's primary ability is to increase a meld/feats/ability's essentia capacity equal to your Charisma bonus. This only lasts one round, and can be done 3 times a day at 10th lvl. It's mostly a pass, but I can see some builds that might dip into it for essentia and nova striking with a particular meld.

Incarnum Blade: This is the biggest stinker in the codex and I am not really sure why some one would play one. It gives nothing that gear or other melds can't give you, and doesn't even increase your incarnum abilities.

Ironsoul Forgemaster: This is an interesting class that is really fluffy. Allows you to forge magic items without a caster level, and supe up weapons and armor that you craft. It also improves your binds and meldshaper progression.

Necrocarnate: This was the abusable PrC in the expansion. Aside from ant hill style cheese, this is a nice PrC for any morally challenged incarnate. However it's dependance on recently dead corpses for essentia makes it more of a DM tool.

Saphire Hierarch: This is the divine/Incarnum theurge, and it's an ok class. Main knock against it is that it is a bit alignment restrictive.

Soul Caster: Incarnum/ Arcane theurge, with a few decent perks. Nothing terrible or really special here.

Spinemeld Warrior: This is a strong class, one that I have seen combined with Skarn Monks for deadly effect. Only knock against it is that it's skarn only, but who really cares?

Totem Rager: Barbarian/Totemist Hybrid. Very decent class for what it is. Great flavor too.

Umbral Disciple: I don't know why, but I just love this PrC. All of it's abilities are usefull, and some are just down right cool. Doesn't increase binds or meldshaping, but has ample essentia and is perfect for light dip type builds.

Witchborn Binder: Wierd class, and there are better mage killers out there. Still, you get free gold, lol.

Soul Manifester (web enhancement): Psionic/MeldShaper theurge. In and of it's self it's very decent, but combined with some of the psionic/incarnum feats, I've seen some absolutely broke things.

Hope this helps!

[Darth Stabber]

Incarnates get a bum rap, people keep saying they aren't really t3. They are, possibly even moreso than totemist. They aren't as good at combat (unless you are good at the opti-fu, in which case they have a higher ceiling balanced by lower floor), but at everything that isn't murder. Seriously, they are amazing skillmonkeys, and better at combat than rogues if you know what you are doing. If you weigh combat higher than out of combat, totemist might come out ahead, but if you do any things that aren't combat you are well served by incarnate.

Soulborn is aweful. Imagine srd only paladin, and make it two notches worse (why you no free horse?). Paladin has splat support, soulborn gets next to nothing. Other than a more widely applicable smite, nothing else it has puts it ahead. If you gestalt it with soulknife and let it play amoungst non-gestalt characters it actually plays pretty well, but the class is kind of a joke otherwise.

Totemist is easily the best non-tob, non-gish, melee class, and it can keep pace with ToB and any of the "out of the box gishes". It's an okay class at level 1, at level 2 it's the best class in the game, and it stays good thereafter. Mixes well with barbarian, especially with the PRC. Also, one of the most dippable classes going, 2 levels gives you a lot neat toys that can be swapped out as needed.

Also note that essentia capacity is determined by level, not class level, so those dips scale well.

[Psyren]

Incarnum Blade: This is the biggest stinker in the codex and I am not really sure why some one would play one. It gives nothing that gear or other melds can't give you, and doesn't even increase your incarnum abilities.

I see it as a low-powered class that can be used to ease new groups into Incarnum that might be worried about its power level. (Kind of like the Soulknife's role for Psionics.) But I definitely agree that they made it TOO weak.

It makes a good footsoldier in a high-incarnum setting though. You put this on all the town guards, or all the grunts in an incarnum mercenary company, and you get a lot of flavor.



Ironsoul Forgemaster: This is an interesting class that is really fluffy. Allows you to forge magic items without a caster level, and supe up weapons and armor that you craft. It also improves your binds and meldshaper progression.

You forgot to mention that (a) this class has the fastest access to the Heart bind of any other combination (though it gives up a couple of lower chakras along the way) and (b) if you combine it with Battlesmith you can craft stupidly high CL weapons and armor. (something like CL 45 at 20.)



Necrocarnate: This was the abusable PrC in the expansion. Aside from ant hill style cheese, this is a nice PrC for any morally challenged incarnate. However it's dependance on recently dead corpses for essentia makes it more of a DM tool.

Note that the adaptation lets you turn it into a good-aligned version (Vivicarnate.) So you can be a good guy and play this great class if you want. The need to harvest essentia isn't as restrictive as you think - it lasts a long time once you get some, so if you're getting into combat every day you'll have plenty. You can also get temporary boosts from stuff like a Soul Boon wand and Psycarnum Infusion that will help you drop a bad guy to eat.



Saphire Hierarch: This is the divine/Incarnum theurge, and it's an ok class. Main knock against it is that it is a bit alignment restrictive.

There's an adaptation for this as well that opens it up to more alignments :smallsmile:



Umbral Disciple: I don't know why, but I just love this PrC. All of it's abilities are usefull, and some are just down right cool. Doesn't increase binds or meldshaping, but has ample essentia and is perfect for light dip type builds.

I love this one too - it's gets you HiPs at about the same time as a Shadowdancer while being a lot easier to get into. And a single Incarnate dip on a Rogue + this gives you a thief with a ton of tricks up his sleeve.



Soul Manifester (web enhancement): Psionic/MeldShaper theurge. In and of it's self it's very decent, but combined with some of the psionic/incarnum feats, I've seen some absolutely broke things.

Even without the psycarnum stuff it works better than the Soulcaster does; this is because of the relationship between manifester level and save DC for most powers. Raising the ML increases the amount you can augment the power, which increases the DC even more, so Psionic Investment yields better returns than Arcane investment at equal levels. In addition, because PP are more granular than spell slots, Psionic Distillation has a lower opportunity cost than Magical Distillation - you aren't giving up your biggest guns to use it.