(PF) Ifrits vs. Gnomes for Pyromancy

[Johanas]

Evening Playgrounders, I'm looking to build a really classic fire-blasty sorcerer. I'm torn between the gnome alternate racial trait of Pyromanic, and the fire affinity trait of ifrits. I'll be using the Elemental (Fire) bloodline.

Here's Pyromanic: Pyromaniac Gnomes with this racial trait are treated as one level higher when casting spells with the fire descriptor, using granted powers of the Fire domain, using the bloodline powers of the fire elemental bloodline or the revelations of the oracle's flame mystery, and determining the damage of alchemist bombs that deal fire damage (this ability does not give gnomes early access to level-based powers; it only affects the powers they could use without this ability). Gnomes with Charisma scores of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, flare, prestidigitation, produce flame. The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level; the DCs are Charisma-based. This racial trait replaces gnome magic and illusion resistance.
That's got some neat stuff, i.e. produce flame 1/day, and bonus damage dice and better chance to get through SR. Neat bonus for bloodline stuff.

And here's Fire Affinity: Fire Affinity: Ifrit sorcerers with the elemental (fire) bloodline treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer spells and class abilities. Ifrit spellcasters with the Fire domain use their domain powers and spells at +1 caster level.

This one however, seems to have a higher DC, and also offers bonuses to bloodline powers.

I see obvious advantages to both, and both races offer a shiny +2 to Charisma as well. I'm hoping someone can chime in with a good reason to take one over the other.

Thoughts?

[chaos_redefined]

With only what you said there, I'd go gnome. Using fireball as an example... The extra CL will deal an extra 3.5 damage if they fail the save, 1.75 if they pass. The extra +2 cha will deal an extra CL*1.75 5% of the time, which comes out to 0.0875 damage *CL. If you have a caster level of 20, this means you deal 1.75 extra damage on average... Compared to the +1 CL which will deal 1.75 extra damage at worst. So, from just those abilities, the +1 CL is better than +2 cha for the purposes of fire spells

With this in mind, however, there is another thing to consider. High level play is generally a case of "whoever wins initiative wins combat", and the ifrit can give you +4 initiative, in addition to the +2 dex. (The +2 also gives you +1 hit and AC, but the gnome gets that for being small). So, how often does your dm give multiple opponents, and how often do you get them lined up for an AoE that doesn't also hit your allies? Coz that free shot at the beginning of combat might help on that.

[avr]

A gnome isn't restricted to taking the elemental (fire) bloodline when maxing out your fire spells. This is good because honestly it's neither the best nor the coolest of bloodlines. Take Draconic instead for +1 per die of damage, or Abyssal to get bonuses on summoned creatures (summon monster is a fire spell when summoning creatures of that type), or anything else to broaden your character; the elemental (fire) bloodline just doesn't have anything going for it except that Ifrits get a bonus if they take it.

[Slipperychicken]

Half Orc Crossblooded (Draconic & Orc) Sorcerer

Draconic bloodline: +1 per die of damage for spells with [element] descriptor. This will be [Fire] for our purposes.

Orc bloodline: +1 per die whenever spell damage is rolled.

Half-Orc Favored class bonus: +1/2 damage per Sorcerer level (NOT per damage die) on spells which deal fire damage.


Before CL boosts, this will amount to +2.5 damage per die. So instead of a 10d6 (average 35) fire spell, you're looking at 10d6+25 (avg 60). Before metamagic. That's like applying Maximize for free. Crossblooded does cripple your spells known a bit, although I get the feeling you were going all-in on Fire anyway. Look into Elemental Spell metamagic, which changes damage type without changing the energy descriptor, so Draconic and Orc bonuses still apply to it (Half-Orc favored class bonus won't).

For traits, look at Magical Lineage (-1 metamagic adjustments for one spell. Choose wisely. Note it does not have to be a spell you get at 1st level), which will allow you to better use those 2nd level slots in the level you don't have spells known for them (you can still cast 1sts out of them, but it feels like a waste of a slot). Alternatively, Havoc of the Society (+1 force damage). Also Reactive, because Initiative is nice.

In terms of feats, one option to consider is Mage's Tattoo (Evocation) for +1 CL.

EDIT: Actually addressing the thread: I might consider taking Pyro Gnome with my build instead, but not Ifrit. The +1 CL would be more efficient than the Half-Orc bonus up to about level 10, and applies to all [fire] spells, not just ones which deal Fire damage (the wording also means you don't lose any damage when you use Elemental Spell). Also, Ifrit CL boost only applies to casters with the Fire Domain, which Sorcerers (AFAIK) don't posses.

With crossblooded, you may want to go Human too, to offset the spells known loss.

[Johanas]

This is really good advice. This was exactly what I needed, so thank you all. If you have any other suggestions for spells known or feats/traits, I would appreciate the input.

Slipperychicken: I had entirely forgotten about the half-orc favored class bonus. That's a very viable choice, and I am trying to make the character a little one-sided intentionally, so going all in on fire is no problem.

Avr: You're right, elemental fire really is kind of bland. Giving your opponents vulnerability to your spells is great, but that isn't for quite some time. I'll be looking at other bloodlines also.

chaos_redefined: I appreciate the math. That really breaks it down nicely. That, and you're very right about initiative, and I was thinking that if I chose Ifrit, I would max out initiative as best I could. My GM is great about giving varying numbers of opponents, so there would be lots of times to get that extra AoE punch in with a fireball in the first turn.

[Johanas]

EDIT: Also, Ifrit CL boost only applies to casters with the Fire Domain, which Sorcerers (AFAIK) don't posses.

Right. I'd get that nice 2 higher effective Charisma, but that would be it.

[Psyren]

Note however that the Ifrit's (effectively) higher Cha applies to non-fire spells too. When you consider that it's the equivalent of two Wishes (and even stacks with same) it becomes more attractive by comparison.

And Ifrits look awesome.

[Johanas]

Ok. So now for the next step. Regardless of which bloodline I go with, I'll be taking eldritch heritage to get a second one. It looks like I have enough to go off of here.
So the next question is this. Which should be my bloodline, and which should be obtained through the feat chain? Ill be getting a robe of arcane heritage too, if that makes a difference.

[Slipperychicken]

Still suggesting Crossblooded (Draconic/Orc) for the damage pump. I haven't found a bloodline whose powers are worth feats. I could see going elemental for the blasts (the low times per day and awful damage), but it feels like you'd be better off putting your feats toward metamagics, Spell Focus (Evocation) and Mage's Tattoo, and investing in Pearls of Power instead..

[nihonsean]

Extra Gnome Magic
The raw magic that flows through your gnome blood is stronger than normal.

Prerequisites: Cha 13, gnome.

Benefit: You gain an additional three uses per day of your gnome spell-like abilities (dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation). You can use these in any combination; for example, you can use dancing lights four times in one day (taking all three additional uses for the same spell), or you can cast ghost sound twice, prestidigitation twice, speak with animals twice, and dancing lights once. If you have a feat, trait, or other ability that changes your racial 0-level spell-like abilities to other 0-level spells, this feat applies to them instead.

This lets you cast produce flame four times per day.

[stack]

Recall that half races qualify for the parent race's favored class bonus, allowing half orcs to get extra spells to shore up the cross blooded losses.

[Slipperychicken]

It's strange to remember that I thought wildblooded was good back then, despite knowing how badly it tanked spell progression. No max level spells every other level? No thanks.