Fight for the Throne?

[Draig]

In my campaign currently One of the Pc's has discovered that he is the heir to an old and ancient house and currently has a stake in the Ascension to the throne of an empire. The problem im having is that there are several other nobles, roughly 4-5 major ones and 10-20 minor (minion) nobles. What are some things that other nobles may do to gain the throne? or lessen his chances for it?

Basically im asking that if YOU were a noble contending for the throne of an empire how would you discredit or remove competition?

The Empire and nobles in question are based roughly on Cairhien from Robert Jordans Wheel of time, OR every Noble from the game of Thrones series (show and book).

[Daftendirekt]

The Empire and nobles in question are based roughly on Cairhien from Robert Jordans Wheel of time, OR every Noble from the game of Thrones series (show and book).

Bahahaha, before getting to this last part these were exactly the two stories that I considered suggesting reading to get ideas. :smallbiggrin:

[Draig]

Bahahaha, before getting to this last part these were exactly the two stories that I considered suggesting reading to get ideas. :smallbiggrin:

Haha they are both what sparked the idea for this plot hook

[Daftendirekt]

You should already have plenty of ideas from reading them, then. :smallconfused:

[Draig]

My problem is that those books had either a lack of certain elements of the dnd world or a variation of it. Game of thrones didn't have a lot of any form of magic and Wheel of Time had Saidin and Saidar which are like magic but semi-limited due to lack of imagination or training.

Im trying to see some aspects that magic could play in this area. Also which nobles from these two resources really stood out as "OMG they did what?!"- Nobles.

[Studoku]

The obvious answer is assassins, although this may vary based on the system. Is this a D&D setting where Raise Dead is the norm for anyone sufficiently important? Whether it is or not, have the other nobles to show varying levels of paranoia.

The other would be diplomacy. An intelligent minor noble may realise his chance for the throne is extremely low and he is better off siding with a more powerful candidate in exchange for power/favours/convenient marriages. Get a reasonable coalition of minor nobles that you can trust and muster an army. That's not to say there won't be backstabing down the line of course.

Actually, why not combine these? Seek nobles with rebellious and greedy heirs and often to put them in charge of their house in exchange for their support.

What system is this? There's even more stuff you could do with magic, if it's available.

[Draig]

The system? Is just 3.5 Basic PHB, the books we have are BoVD, Comp Champion, warrior, and divine. Libris Mortis, Exemplars of evil and DMG. Plus the internet haha

[Lorsa]

If I was in the game for the throne, the first thing I'd need is alliances. Lesser nobles understand they can not get the throne for themselves so would want to help a higher noble for favor. So first seek out the ones that will ally with you. Then starts the murder and discrediting. Yes that means murdering a competitor and framing another competitor. Then I would want to discredit them in other ways, planting evidence they are into horrible and despicable things not to mention making sure they look as though they are breaking their promises to their allies. Frame them for not upholding their deals, frame them for murder, frame them for consorting with demons. Hmmm, I am getting a bit repetitive but that's really the best I can come up with. :smallsmile:

[Draig]

Now the REALLY hard part, one of the pc's has suggested being purely Honorable and not using any such deceit as assassins or lying etc.

Im not saying we will choose to try THAT approach, but now that you've considered a dirty form for ascension, what would be an honorable way to do the same feat?

[Studoku]

The system? Is just 3.5 Basic PHB, the books we have are BoVD, Comp Champion, warrior, and divine. Libris Mortis, Exemplars of evil and DMG. Plus the internet haha
I just noticed that from the forum this was in. I thought I was still Roleplaying Games.

If this is 3.5, then I have just three words:
Everybody loves doppelgangers.

Building on my original idea, doppelganger/changeling assassins. Find out everything you can about the heirs of your rivals, then have changeling assassins eliminate and replace them. Once they're settled in, arrange an "accident" for their leader so the heir can take over. It's not exactly original but it could be interesting.

Not that I'd trust changeling assassins but there's got to be a lord out there crazy enough to try it. Changeling sons/daughters through some curse/pact maybe?

As for honourable ideas, I can't think of anything good. Just form a coalition and wage war I guess. Is there a capital or suitable centre of government to fight over?

[Draig]

The kingdom is at stake but just like the Cairhein rules of Game of Houses, Holding the capitol City strengthens a candidates position as well as holding the Castle. it is possible to hold the City without the castle and vice-versa.

[GnomeGninjas]

You should have one of the nobles be completely honorable and simply challenge him to a duel to the death.

[Lorsa]

The only honorable way is to be the true rightful heir or in this case hold enough support among most of the nobles that you are the strongest candidate. He could always hope that all the others will be dishonorable and by upholding high standards he will attract others. Even if you are being honorable you can be publicly honorable of quietly honorable. Maybe make grand gestures towards the general populace (the commoners) and make sure to gather the support of the people rather than the nobles. Many higher-ups often forget that while nobles are rich, the people are many. Perhaps he will fight those nobles treating the people poorly, capturing their cities / forts and then giving back to the commoners. Word will spread and eventually the masses will gather to his side.

[Amnestic]

Now the REALLY hard part, one of the pc's has suggested being purely Honorable and not using any such deceit as assassins or lying etc.

Im not saying we will choose to try THAT approach, but now that you've considered a dirty form for ascension, what would be an honorable way to do the same feat?

Convince the other nobles (via act or word) that you are the superior choice. Make concessions to them and recruit them to your cause. Convince the people that you are the superior choice. If you have the people's love, then it'll be much harder for the opposition to take the throne. Not impossible, but harder.

[Matticussama]

Warning: I'm a History major with a PoliSci minor, so I tend to go a bit.. detailed.. with political intrigue and the workings of governments in D&D. I also love Game of Thrones. These two can be... detrimental.. to unwary or rash players who seek to involve themselves in court politics. =D



Any stable kingdom in a high magic world would/should have some sort of strong magical component to the state; to use a Forgotten Realms example, look at the War Wizards of Cormyr. They serve as one of the pillars upon which the stability of the Kingdom of Cormyr rests upon. If you aren't familiar with the FR, the War Wizards function as part army, part advisory organization. They use magic to help support the military endeavors of the state, but they also serve the realm by investigating obviously magical high crimes and bringing the perpetrators to justice. Thus, presuming your Empire has one of these types of magical organizations serving the state, the first thing to consider is what that force does to schemes.

The nobles continue to scheme, of course, but they must take precautions against discovery. Some of these are your typical adventuring solutions; protections against scrying and detection, fooling alignment, etc. However, this magical force of the state should keep any nobles from taking rash action; any outright murder of another noble will have to be highly calculated, and leave as little evidence as possible. Of course, there are more subtle ways to subvert power within the realm. Nobles can and will sabotage each other's estates; if you weaken your enemy's economic base, then they cannot afford the necessary bribes and payments to keep high ranking courtiers supplying information and favors. There is also the assassination of lower functionaries; the higher ranking Wizards aren't going to investigate the death of every 2nd and 3rd level Knight, so long as little evidence is left to indicate foul play.

However, you also have to consider how the government forces themselves works. Is the army highly centralized under the command of the Emperor, or do the high ranking nobles maintain strong independent legions? Do the nobles consider military service honorable - thus leading to the higher ranks of officers in the military being dominated by nobles - or not? If the Emperor dies without heir and the nobles fight for power, the noble family (or alliance of families) with the strongest influence on the military obviously have a significant advantage. The same goes for whatever War Wizard equivalent exists; if one or two families have exceptionally strong magical affinities, then they can use the organization to help fill the vacuum of power for their family.

To use Roman Republic (and to a lesser extent the later Empire) as an example, the high ranking Patrician families would fight for powerful governmental positions within the Senate, the military, the church and the bureaucracy. They knew that they could use these positions to leverage significant influence for the good of their family. The Roman Consuls would appoint people who were loyal to their family into power, so that whenever significant disputes occurred they could leverage the power of the state apparatus for their own ends. This often led to state agencies working against one another in various and fascinating ways.

The nobles of your Empire would likely do the same, to some extent. Pressing new taxes through that disproportionately hurt your political enemies is always a sound tactic; there are numerous seemingly innocent ways to use the power of a government position in an Empire to further the family's own ends.

I could go on and on. I'm more than glad to offer further input, if any of this is relevant to things that would be useful to you.

[Greenish]

Convince the people that you are the superior choice.Or you could just, you know…

http://hbowatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Joffrey-Crossbow.jpg

[Draig]

Warning: I'm a History major with a PoliSci minor, so I tend to go a bit.. detailed.. with political intrigue and the workings of governments in D&D. I also love Game of Thrones. These two can be... detrimental.. to unwary or rash players who seek to involve themselves in court politics. =D



Any stable kingdom in a high magic world would/should have some sort of strong magical component to the state; to use a Forgotten Realms example, look at the War Wizards of Cormyr. They serve as one of the pillars upon which the stability of the Kingdom of Cormyr rests upon. If you aren't familiar with the FR, the War Wizards function as part army, part advisory organization. They use magic to help support the military endeavors of the state, but they also serve the realm by investigating obviously magical high crimes and bringing the perpetrators to justice. Thus, presuming your Empire has one of these types of magical organizations serving the state, the first thing to consider is what that force does to schemes.

The nobles continue to scheme, of course, but they must take precautions against discovery. Some of these are your typical adventuring solutions; protections against scrying and detection, fooling alignment, etc. However, this magical force of the state should keep any nobles from taking rash action; any outright murder of another noble will have to be highly calculated, and leave as little evidence as possible. Of course, there are more subtle ways to subvert power within the realm. Nobles can and will sabotage each other's estates; if you weaken your enemy's economic base, then they cannot afford the necessary bribes and payments to keep high ranking courtiers supplying information and favors. There is also the assassination of lower functionaries; the higher ranking Wizards aren't going to investigate the death of every 2nd and 3rd level Knight, so long as little evidence is left to indicate foul play.

However, you also have to consider how the government forces themselves works. Is the army highly centralized under the command of the Emperor, or do the high ranking nobles maintain strong independent legions? Do the nobles consider military service honorable - thus leading to the higher ranks of officers in the military being dominated by nobles - or not? If the Emperor dies without heir and the nobles fight for power, the noble family (or alliance of families) with the strongest influence on the military obviously have a significant advantage. The same goes for whatever War Wizard equivalent exists; if one or two families have exceptionally strong magical affinities, then they can use the organization to help fill the vacuum of power for their family.

To use Roman Republic (and to a lesser extent the later Empire) as an example, the high ranking Patrician families would fight for powerful governmental positions within the Senate, the military, the church and the bureaucracy. They knew that they could use these positions to leverage significant influence for the good of their family. The Roman Consuls would appoint people who were loyal to their family into power, so that whenever significant disputes occurred they could leverage the power of the state apparatus for their own ends. This often led to state agencies working against one another in various and fascinating ways.

The nobles of your Empire would likely do the same, to some extent. Pressing new taxes through that disproportionately hurt your political enemies is always a sound tactic; there are numerous seemingly innocent ways to use the power of a government position in an Empire to further the family's own ends.

I could go on and on. I'm more than glad to offer further input, if any of this is relevant to things that would be useful to you.

This is actually enlightening in a way. The nobles themselves control their own retainers, all the retainers of the land make up the army itself. And the Emperor was killed along with his lineage. Its one of the major problems with this civil war. There is no real clear line of succesion due to the heirs and emperor all dieing at the same time.

[Andezzar]

Or you could just, you know…

http://hbowatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Joffrey-Crossbow.jpgyou have not read the books, have you? You will be in for a surprise.

Speaking of the Lannisters, renounce your claim to the throne, become filthy rich and buy the kingdom/throne. And don't underestimate your off-spring, no matter how deformed.

[Matticussama]

In that case you may want to look to the War of the Roses for inspiration in how the noble families end up forming factions. To quickly summarize it, the English Royal House of Plantagenet was ended when a relatively weak king was deposed. The two major English noble families who had blood ties to the royal house - the houses of York and Lancaster - competed for the throne on the basis of their blood ties to the now-defunct Royal House. Other major nobles either formed alliances with the houses (on the understanding that they would be rewarded for helping them attain the crown) or would play both sides against the middle.

So an important thing to decide is how many noble families have legitimate blood ties to the now-deceased Emperor. Maybe the Emperor's great-grandfather had a sister who married into noble house A, while the Emperor's grandfather had a cousin who married into noble house B. For kicks, maybe one of the great families agreed to take in a bastard son of a previous Emperor and can claim strong male blood ties to the family. None of these gives any noble family a direct legitimate claim to the throne, but it gives them the ambition and pre-text to take military action under the guise of noble purpose.

By setting up a few families as the "major" contenders for the throne, you can establish who has legitimate claims to the throne and which other families are merely upstarts who are grabbing for power. Of course, upstarts are often willing to go to the furthest extremes in order to gain power, especially if they had to earn every scrap of power along the way (ex: Littlefinger in Game of Thrones).

[Greenish]

you have not read the books, have you? You will be in for a surprise.I have, thought it's been a while, but…

he wasn't killed by a rabble of commoners, was he now?

[Andezzar]

Oh right that picture was when King's Landing was faced with a mob.And you wanted to emphasize the futility of that action.
I thought you meant the idea of putting an underaged sadistic dim-wit on the throne.

[Pandiano]

A very interesting thread, subscribed. Can you update us on your campaign?
Lots of ideas and incentives to be stolen. :-)

[Gwendol]

Just grab the throne in such a display of might and (preferably) divine right that loyalty simply can't be questioned. Then let the heretics fall.

[Draig]

UH OH huge surprise twist folks. Rumors have started that the PC in question has NO legitimate claim to the thrown. The historian that claimed he was descendant of the old emperor was found assassinated before he could deny or confirm this rumor.

What is a Noble to do when they might NOT have legitimate claim but have legitimate ambition and desire to gain the throne?

Also of the 5 main houses contending for the throne, One is openly tyrannical ruling with a sense of intimidation than respect. Another is Divinely Honorable spending more of their time playing peacekeepers than trying for the throne. The other 3? Sitting quietly by and watching the other houses do their dance.

Another main question, The City itself is only guarded by a small contingent of royal guards who really have only the Captain of the Guard as their leader, and the Castle is held by the Head Clerk and First Maid.

Knowing this info how would you take advantage or gain from this?

[TaiLiu]

UH OH huge surprise twist folks. Rumors have started that the PC in question has NO legitimate claim to the thrown. The historian that claimed he was descendant of the old emperor was found assassinated before he could deny or confirm this rumor.

What is a Noble to do when they might NOT have legitimate claim but have legitimate ambition and desire to gain the throne?


The answer, as always, is magic. Speak with Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakWithDead.htm) is fairly low level spell that can be used to question a corpse.

[Draig]

theres nothing left realy TO speak with. a witness said he was doused with a type of acid that melted the historian. the witness is also missing now.

[Daftendirekt]

theres nothing left realy TO speak with. a witness said he was doused with a type of acid that melted the historian. the witness is also missing now.

The shocking twist becomes shockingly twisted: the historian and the witness were both actually one of the contending nobles in disguise.

[Draig]

The shocking twist becomes shockingly twisted: the historian and the witness were both actually one of the contending nobles in disguise.

While that M.Night ish twist is good, to what end? If a contending noble were the historian i think he would have said there was no legitimate claim THEN disappear.

[Daftendirekt]

T'was merely a comedic injection.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/af244/judeferguson42/9g_gentleman.jpg

[Draig]

T'was merely a comedic injection.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/af244/judeferguson42/9g_gentleman.jpg

classic lol

[Droark]

Well at this point you need to have someone on your side. Who are your allies? If you have none of note, you need to convince someone important (and... y'know, not corrupt) that your claim is significant and recognizable. Is there any heirloom the emperor left behind that could prove your lineage? You need evidence at this point. Preferably something that can't be melted.

Consider trying to align yourselves with the Royal Guard or even pulling at one of the neutral houses. The tyrannical house is certainly not going to budge (and if they did they might just put you up as a figurehead), and the divinely honorable house might influence you a bit.

[Zanthy1]

Now the REALLY hard part, one of the pc's has suggested being purely Honorable and not using any such deceit as assassins or lying etc.

Im not saying we will choose to try THAT approach, but now that you've considered a dirty form for ascension, what would be an honorable way to do the same feat?

You say "honorable ascension to the throne" and I hear Eddard Stark. If one is honorable, and the line to the throne is through descendants, then the only way to take power is be the oldest living heir. It is hard to become that if you were not born in to it, and especially hard if you won't kill off a few older brothers or cousins

[Matticussama]

If the character doesn't have the most direct claim to the throne and wants to be honorable, the most honorable course of action would be to support whoever does have the best claim based upon the country's laws. Of course, honorable doesn't mean stupid; by supporting this candidate to the throne, he should fully expect some form of reward to be bestowed upon him. Perhaps a Dukedom, land, etc.

If he does have the most direct claim (or if things are truly so muddled as to leave in question who truly has the best claim) then honor needs to be tempered with wisdom. You don't want to Eddard Stark yourself onto the chopping block, after all. Wisdom would have had Eddard form a partnership with Renly when he offered it after Robert's death; thus, there should be one or two people whom the character could form a truly beneficial alliance with.

Now, if the player doesn't take advantage of these chances and/or alienates those most likely to work with them.... well, when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.

[Organmonkey]

Does the Tyrant or Good Noble have a daughter or other marring age relative?

If so court one or pretend to with the Good Noble get an alliance with the Tyrant use it as a chance to duel him if he objects or pay evil onto evil. If he excepts by having him help in your political fights.

It also gets the Hero some privet rewards from being able to produce a house binding heir. :smallbiggrin:

Finally even if he had no claim before he will have one now as much as they do.

[Draig]

We offered the Pc up for marriage to first the honorable Noble, he claimed he would not marry is daughter to a man who couldn't prove his honor and bravery and suggested we go kill something big and monstrous. Problem being if we head off to adventure who knows what might happen? The tyrannical Noble gave us the major CREEPS. While he seemed all for the marriage he kept asking about how many retainers our PC had (87 assorted soldiers and knights) and how large our coffers were. We feel pretty confident that if our pc married the tyrants daughter that he'd be dead in a week.

Now for allies, the neighboring kingdom is concerned that the civil war will spill over into their land so they have quietly agreed to aide us. (thats where 45 of our retainers came from). Now for the minor nobles, most of them are being gathered up by one or another of the larger houses, but around 4 have formed a little group and is vying to become a major house.

Also somehow we ended up doing a few jobs for the guards, just to make some gold, and have gained some respect from the Captain of the Guard so we'll try to branch out from that.

[Organmonkey]

Are there guilds ?
If you back one like you are the guards they might support you.

As for the marriage have you tried the other major houses or for the tyrant prove you have value as a figure head so he won't kill you.