Spell Schools - Balanced? Reasonable?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Working on assembling things for my homebrew system; right now I have eight schools of magic, and want to see if they seem roughly balanced in concept, and if there are many major applications I'm missing.

I'm probably going to allow a fair degree of improvisation - a character can create an effect not explicitly listed, so long as it follows from the description of a school he's competent in. So, it's important that I not miss major avenues to power.

General Overview
There are eight schools, divided into two sections - Attack Magic and Advanced Magic. Attack magic consists mostly of basic cut-and-thrust spells - not very versatile, but with a lot of combat efficacy. Advanced magic consists of more subtle/complicated effects - less directly applicable in battle, but with a lot of utility spells.

The difficulty of a spell is measured along two axis - Power and Technique. Powerful spells require more mana-equivalent to cast; technically difficult spells have a more difficult casting check. Mages will have the option to specialize in one or the other - either reducing the mana cost of all spells, or giving themselves a flat bonus on casting checks. In general, attack spells require more power, advanced spells require more technique.

Casters may learn multiple schools, but they gain spells as a set ("All basic Electrical Spells", for instance), and most character bonuses apply to only a single school.


Attack Schools

Thermodynamics
Thermodynamic spells redistribute heat energy to create extreme packets of heat or cold. More advanced mages may learn to make materials combust, creating explosive area-of-effect fire spells, or to deal nonlethal cold damage. Very advanced casters can learn to balance heat and cold between two targets, attacking each with a different element for the cost of a single spell.

Thermodynamic spells are often weaker and more commonly resisted than other elements - however, investment in a single school gives access to two damage types.

Outside of combat, thermodynamics have relatively limited uses.

Electricity
Electrical magic revolves around the manipulation of electrical charges. Basic electrical attacks involve creating extreme positive and negative charges between two points, and then allowing them to violently discharge. More advanced electrical mages may learn to briefly stun or paralyze enemies with their attacks, or electrocute multiple enemies with a single attack.

Electrical mages can also build and maintain heavy electrical charges in objects; this can be used for a range of applications, including the creation of single-use static weapons, or creating attractive or repulsive electromagnetic forces.

Finally, electrical magic offers the only known method for restoring life to the dead, by healing a corpse through conventional methods and then re-starting the heart with an electrical jolt.

Entropics
Entropic magic functions by directly draining the structure out of creatures or objects. Entropy effects are difficult to create at any range, so entropic mages usually have to stay within melee range of their opponents; however, entropy damage is very difficult to resist by any means.

Outside of combat, entropics have relatively little use beyond weakening or destroying objects (including doors, containers and architectural supports).

Spatiokinesis
Spatiokinesis deals with manipulating the curvature of space in order to create gravitational effects. Of all the attack schools, spatiokinesis is by far the most technically difficult.

In combat, spatiokinetic mages fight by inducing extreme force upon their opponents, which can serve to mimic physical attacks, or even throw their enemies about the battlefield. As these attacks do little direct damage (and that damage can be blocked by armor), spatiokinesis is generally the weakest of the attack schools on offense.

To compensate for this, spatiokinesis offers a wide array of defensive and battlefield control options; a spatiokinetic mage may use gravitational fields to repel his enemies, create "walls" of gravitational force, or even induce himself to flight.



Advanced Schools

Formation
Formation magic deals with altering the physical structures of inanimate objects. Formation is generally divided into two sub-categories - alchemy and construction.

Alchemy deals with changes on the chemical level. Outside of combat, alchemy can be used to create explosives and poisons. In combat, alchemy is more limited, though alchemists frequently carry bottles of special liquids that they can quickly re-purpose as adhesives, lubricants or combustibles.

Construction magic deals with changing the larger form of objects. Out of combat, this can be used to quickly create mundane objects (such as keys), or overcome environmental obstacles - creating a set of handholds in a stone wall. In combat, the options are again more limited, but creative construction mages can sometimes alter the environment to create cover or escape routes, or attempt to fuse a person's armor (either to incapacitate an enemy, or render an already-incapacitated ally more resistant to further attack.)

Projection
Projection is the art of copying structures from one source to another - often, to or from the caster's own mind. Due to power constraints, even the best projectionists are unable to quickly manifest material changes to the real world - thus, this school deals mostly with illusion and divination.

Additionally, Projection magic may be used to copy structures from one physical object to another - creating a perfect replica of a key or legal document, for example.

Metamagic
Metamagic deals with the manipulation of magical fields, as well as the minds of creatures. Basic metamagic may be used to disrupt enemy casters, turn their spells against them, or to re-enforce friendly magics.

Mental magic, meanwhile, may be used to insert suggestions or ideas into people's head, influence their reactions, or simply distract them at crucial moments in combat. Creatures with simpler or more artificial minds - like constructs and undead - are more resistant to these effects, but not immune.


Vitamancy
Vitamancy deals with the manipulation of living organisms, in a similar manner to what Formation does with inanimate objects. Of all the Advanced schools, Vitamancy requires the most raw power, in addition to considerable technique.

The most basic and common application of vitamancy is the magical healing of wounds. While the difficulty of healing increases with the severity of wounds, the most skilled vitamancers can restore anything short of outright death - though severed or mangled limbs may require additional resources.

The second arc of Vitamancy is the field of Mutation - temporarily or permanently altering living creatures. In combat, this can be used to render allies stronger, faster or more resilient, while sometimes creating the opposite effects in enemies.

So, those are the quick descriptions. What I'm looking for is:
Do these schools seem more-or-less balanced? Which seem to strong/weak?
Are there any obvious applications of one school or another which I'm missing?
Are there any must-have effects that don't fit with any schools (I've left out summoning and major conjurations on purpose.)
Any ways I should re-arrange or re-structure the schools?

[Zelkon]

Well, I don't think that splitting attack and utility is a good idea. All you need is ~5 attack spells for some different situations and you can never have enough utility. I cannot imagine someone specializing in attack, especially if you split even that into four schools.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Well, I don't think that splitting attack and utility is a good idea. All you need is ~5 attack spells for some different situations and you can never have enough utility. I cannot imagine someone specializing in attack, especially if you split even that into four schools.

So, my thinking with that is a fewfold.

First, mages aren't going to be anything like as powerful in this system as in D&D - the really powerful stuff, the conjuration and transmutation, the planar shenanigans and contingent spells, all of that just isn't an option. So, basic attack magic (and martial classes) won't have as much competition from the world-breaking stuff.

Second, (I think), most of the "Advanced" schools have a much more limited range of function in combat - sometimes they'll be useful, but it's very situational, whereas the attack schools are almost always applicable (Except with resistance.)

Third, I figure that mages will invest in multiple schools - depending on how much they want focus vs. versatility, and how many non-casting options they want to develop. Ideally, players would want at least one attack school - but not more than one. I'm hoping that will actually add some tactical depth - casters would play differently depending on what attack school they knew, and there would be different strategies against them, or in support of them. Also, when the mage runs into something that's resistant to his attack school, he has to adjust his strategies and find more creative ways to contribute (In the same way that, say, a melee build would have to find more creative options against flying enemies.)

[Zelkon]

So, my thinking with that is a fewfold.

First, mages aren't going to be anything like as powerful in this system as in D&D - the really powerful stuff, the conjuration and transmutation, the planar shenanigans and contingent spells, all of that just isn't an option. So, basic attack magic (and martial classes) won't have as much competition from the world-breaking stuff.

Fine. Great, even, although I like going the other way and adding intricacies to all character types.

Second, (I think), most of the "Advanced" schools have a much more limited range of function in combat - sometimes they'll be useful, but it's very situational, whereas the attack schools are almost always applicable (Except with resistance.)

Again, I like going the other way, but I'm special like that.

Third, I figure that mages will invest in multiple schools - depending on how much they want focus vs. versatility, and how many non-casting options they want to develop. Ideally, players would want at least one attack school - but not more than one. I'm hoping that will actually add some tactical depth - casters would play differently depending on what attack school they knew, and there would be different strategies against them, or in support of them. Also, when the mage runs into something that's resistant to his attack school, he has to adjust his strategies and find more creative ways to contribute (In the same way that, say, a melee build would have to find more creative options against flying enemies.)
See, if you treat them in game the same but have some meta game expectations, it's going to get funky if you don't have a rules distinction between the attack and advanced categories. Because the choice right now is only "do I focus on attack?" or "do I not and then 'what utilities do I choose?'" Because the versatile schools are exactly that: completely different, while damage schools will be always the same. Damage ends up being a crunch choice, but school ends up being a fluff choice. The two categories are not eequivilant, and will have to be presented that way.
Sorry, I realize that I enjoy being critical. I really like the idea though.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Sorry, I realize that I enjoy being critical. I really like the idea though.

Critical is good, I need to be told about problems now, if this system is ever going to have a shadow of a chance of working.

I have been adding intricacies to martial classes and attack spells as well, but... Trying to balance everything to the level of the 3.5 Tier-1 builds isn't gonna work. Every build would be game-breakingly powerful, and there's no realistic way for "mundane" options to give that kind of power.

So, my imagining of how things would go (highly abstracted) is something like this. A given build can afford to invest in so-and-so many schools of magic, let's say three. For their first choice, picking an attack school is an obvious choice, because they want some bread-and-butter actions they can use in almost any fight. Hopefully, for this first choice, the four attack schools are roughly balanced, depending on build. (Hardy characters who would be in the thick of it would lean entropics, characters with a lot of other options might lean spatokinesis, etc). Anyway, they take some attack school as their first pick.

For their second school, the math changes. They already have one cut-and thrust school; picking a second gives them relatively little, except greater versatility against enemies who resist their first school. This time, an advanced school is a better pick- utility spells, plus some creative options in combat. For their third school, the math is about the same as the second. Already having an attack school makes getting a second one less valuable, but the same is not true for an advanced school.

That's how I hope/imagine it working out, anyway. It isn't as if people could only choose attack, or only choose advanced; any dedicated mage (as opposed to gish builds, which I want to encourage) would probably have some of each.

[Zelkon]

Critical is good, I need to be told about problems now, if this system is ever going to have a shadow of a chance of working.

I have been adding intricacies to martial classes and attack spells as well, but... Trying to balance everything to the level of the 3.5 Tier-1 builds isn't gonna work. Every build would be game-breakingly powerful, and there's no realistic way for "mundane" options to give that kind of power.

So, my imagining of how things would go (highly abstracted) is something like this. A given build can afford to invest in so-and-so many schools of magic, let's say three. For their first choice, picking an attack school is an obvious choice, because they want some bread-and-butter actions they can use in almost any fight. Hopefully, for this first choice, the four attack schools are roughly balanced, depending on build. (Hardy characters who would be in the thick of it would lean entropics, characters with a lot of other options might lean spatokinesis, etc). Anyway, they take some attack school as their first pick.

For their second school, the math changes. They already have one cut-and thrust school; picking a second gives them relatively little, except greater versatility against enemies who resist their first school. This time, an advanced school is a better pick- utility spells, plus some creative options in combat. For their third school, the math is about the same as the second. Already having an attack school makes getting a second one less valuable, but the same is not true for an advanced school.

That's how I hope/imagine it working out, anyway. It isn't as if people could only choose attack, or only choose advanced; any dedicated mage (as opposed to gish builds, which I want to encourage) would probably have some of each.

So spell (PUN!) it out. Tell them that multiple attack schools doesn't actually make sense. It's hardly Ok to let a feat (or similar) be a trap option, let alone a character defining choice. Don't just say, here's a bunch of schools, treat the two categories as different things. Here's how I would do it.
Attack spells work completely differently than Advanced spells. By default, all mages choose which attack school they want. There is an option to go all Advanced with only one or two attack spells or none at all, but your average towne mage will have an attack school. Now, I don't know how you'll cast these spells, but I'm hoping it's not vancian because that's hard to work around. But anyway, these attack schools draw from a different pool entirely than advanced spells. Look it like 4e, except where utility spells actually mean something. So, you can focus on one or two types of tricks, or be a generalist, etc. and then you have a separate form of attacking. Drawing from the same pool is just the most annoying thing. I don't want to have to wait all day to cast rope trick. I want to blow stuff up sometimes. Making me choose is just bad design and serves to create one of my so called "roadblocks" of D&D that allow it to be a really fun system until you hit one of these roadblocks.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Now, I don't know how you'll cast these spells, but I'm hoping it's not vancian because that's hard to work around.

So, I'm not actually sure what "Vancian" refers to, but here's the system I have:

Every spell has a power cost - for some spells, this may be very low or very high. When a mage casts, they draw some set amount of power from the field around them - if this is enough for the spell, great, they cast it, and can keep casting it every turn to exhaustion. If the spell requires more power than they can channel directly, they can expend some stored power in order to meet the requirements. Storing up power is a slow process, not something they can really do in combat.

There may be ways for mages to draw additional power towards a spell - my action system is different, but think the equivalent of converting a standard action spell into a full round action, in order to reduce the power cost. Furthermore, a character whose focused on strengthening his connection to the local field through prayer, meditation, etc, can simply draw more power - so, some spells get moved to "I can cast this every turn" and some you can at least cast more often.

When they cast, they go through the chance mechanism (either a die pool or a series of rolls) which gives them some number of successes, or some number of failures. Some spells may simply require a certain number of successes to function; others may have stronger results with more successes. If the caster has bonuses towards the casting, those are added to their successes, or subtracted from their failures; if their opponent has a magical defense, it applies in the reverse manner.

So, (translated to D&D), this single roll is the casting check to see if the spell is cast at all, the attack roll to see if the spell hits, the saving throw and magic resistance roll to see if the target resists, and the damage roll to see how much is dealt. So, a mage that invested in technique over power would get more reliable results.


o spell (PUN!) it out. Tell them that multiple attack schools doesn't actually make sense. It's hardly Ok to let a feat (or similar) be a trap option, let alone a character defining choice. Don't just say, here's a bunch of schools, treat the two categories as different things. Here's how I would do it.
Attack spells work completely differently than Advanced spells. By default, all mages choose which attack school they want. There is an option to go all Advanced with only one or two attack spells or none at all, but your average towne mage will have an attack school.

I want to keep character-building as fluid as possible - this system only just barely even has classes. Everything is done on a point-buy, and your starting class just describes some of what you "Bought" at 1st-level; other classes can buy that same stuff as they level. So, I don't want to to impose a lot of regulations of "You must pick one and only one attack school" - some mages might want to flexibility of dealing different damage types, or really want spatiokinesis but would rather have a better direct-attack school, as well.

That being said, yeah, there's no reason I can't spell that out as advice for the players - I just wouldn't want it to be a hard-coded rule.


But anyway, these attack schools draw from a different pool entirely than advanced spells. Look it like 4e, except where utility spells actually mean something. So, you can focus on one or two types of tricks, or be a generalist, etc. and then you have a separate form of attacking. Drawing from the same pool is just the most annoying thing. I don't want to have to wait all day to cast rope trick. I want to blow stuff up sometimes. Making me choose is just bad design and serves to create one of my so called "roadblocks" of D&D that allow it to be a really fun system until you hit one of these roadblocks.

So, one thing I probably failed to make clear - the decision to be a "Power" or "Technique" caster isn't the same as deciding to be an "Attack" or "Advanced" caster. It could be a perfectly good build to invest in power while studying the advanced schools - they have a lower power cost, but they still have one, so Powerful caster who focused on Advanced schools would have more staying power than anyone. Similarly, a Technique-focused caster who chose to focus on Advanced schools would be pretty lethal - they'd have to conserve their resources, but they would reliably be able to get large numbers of successes while casting, letting them deal more damage, or remain effective against enemies with a strong magical defense.

[Zelkon]

So, I'm not actually sure what "Vancian" refers to, but here's the system I have:

Every spell has a power cost - for some spells, this may be very low or very high. When a mage casts, they draw some set amount of power from the field around them - if this is enough for the spell, great, they cast it, and can keep casting it every turn to exhaustion. If the spell requires more power than they can channel directly, they can expend some stored power in order to meet the requirements. Storing up power is a slow process, not something they can really do in combat.

There may be ways for mages to draw additional power towards a spell - my action system is different, but think the equivalent of converting a standard action spell into a full round action, in order to reduce the power cost. Furthermore, a character whose focused on strengthening his connection to the local field through prayer, meditation, etc, can simply draw more power - so, some spells get moved to "I can cast this every turn" and some you can at least cast more often.

When they cast, they go through the chance mechanism (either a die pool or a series of rolls) which gives them some number of successes, or some number of failures. Some spells may simply require a certain number of successes to function; others may have stronger results with more successes. If the caster has bonuses towards the casting, those are added to their successes, or subtracted from their failures; if their opponent has a magical defense, it applies in the reverse manner.

So, (translated to D&D), this single roll is the casting check to see if the spell is cast at all, the attack roll to see if the spell hits, the saving throw and magic resistance roll to see if the target resists, and the damage roll to see how much is dealt. So, a mage that invested in technique over power would get more reliable results.



I want to keep character-building as fluid as possible - this system only just barely even has classes. Everything is done on a point-buy, and your starting class just describes some of what you "Bought" at 1st-level; other classes can buy that same stuff as they level. So, I don't want to to impose a lot of regulations of "You must pick one and only one attack school" - some mages might want to flexibility of dealing different damage types, or really want spatiokinesis but would rather have a better direct-attack school, as well.

That being said, yeah, there's no reason I can't spell that out as advice for the players - I just wouldn't want it to be a hard-coded rule.



So, one thing I probably failed to make clear - the decision to be a "Power" or "Technique" caster isn't the same as deciding to be an "Attack" or "Advanced" caster. It could be a perfectly good build to invest in power while studying the advanced schools - they have a lower power cost, but they still have one, so Powerful caster who focused on Advanced schools would have more staying power than anyone. Similarly, a Technique-focused caster who chose to focus on Advanced schools would be pretty lethal - they'd have to conserve their resources, but they would reliably be able to get large numbers of successes while casting, letting them deal more damage, or remain effective against enemies with a strong magical defense.

Ah. I don't feel like I'm within my advice giving realm because I'm much more comfortable within a class structure design wise (I happen to like it better in general but I've certainly met exceptions). Anyway, you seem to have a good grasp on what you're doing. I say go with what you have. You'll know if you got it wrong.

[qwertyu63]

So, those are the quick descriptions. What I'm looking for is:
Do these schools seem more-or-less balanced? Which seem to strong/weak?
Are there any obvious applications of one school or another which I'm missing?
Are there any must-have effects that don't fit with any schools (I've left out summoning and major conjurations on purpose.)
Any ways I should re-arrange or re-structure the schools?


In order:
As, the others have said, Attacks are weak.
Not really.
Yeah, you need the exact thing you left out. This is where I say "You have failed, good sir."
No comment.

Total score: 4/10. Correct the power gap between the 2 sets, and you can get it up to 6/10. Without "summoning and major conjurations", approval from me cannot be obtained.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

In order:
As, the others have said, Attacks are weak.
Not really.
Yeah, you need the exact thing you left out. This is where I say "You have failed, good sir."
No comment.

Total score: 4/10. Correct the power gap between the 2 sets, and you can get it up to 6/10. Without "summoning and major conjurations", approval from me cannot be obtained.

So, my issue with conjuration is that it seems to be broken in and of itself. Mages are almost always more powerful than martial classes, and Conjuration abilities make that division all the more pronounced.

"Attacks are weak" - is that actually based on comparing attack spells to the effects available from other schools, or just based on the fact that direct damage spells are weak in D&D?

Also, bear in mind that no one would be purchasing an entire set - they're just a logical division, as the schools in each set share some qualities. Like I said above, I'd expect an attack school to be a good first choice, but once you have one, there isn't as much value in picking up a second.

[Zelkon]

So, my issue with conjuration is that it seems to be broken in and of itself. Mages are almost always more powerful than martial classes, and Conjuration abilities make that division all the more pronounced.

"Attacks are weak" - is that actually based on comparing attack spells to the effects available from other schools, or just based on the fact that direct damage spells are weak in D&D?

Also, bear in mind that no one would be purchasing an entire set - they're just a logical division, as the schools in each set share some qualities. Like I said above, I'd expect an attack school to be a good first choice, but once you have one, there isn't as much value in picking up a second.

Is this for a D&D system? Because Conjuration (etc) isn't inherently broken unless you're using D&D for a base? Is this a whole new RPG or just a mod for D&D?
Attack is weak because it only does that: attack. Specializing in attack is fine...but it's also like specializing in healing: it only does that. Specializing in any other school lets you, lets say, transform yourself, buff yourself, and bypass obstacles.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Is this for a D&D system? Because Conjuration (etc) isn't inherently broken unless you're using D&D for a base? Is this a whole new RPG or just a mod for D&D?

Whole new RPG - but yes, I would still say that conjuration (Or at least summoning) is broken - because it offers so much versatility from a single base effect.

Conjured creatures can attack, providing a raw source of damage.

Conjured creatures can take hits on the front line, acting as meat shields.

Conjured creatures can guard a section of territory, acting as battlefield control.

Conjured creatures can do basic manual tasks, working as utility magic. (Open potentially trapped doors, etc.)

Conjured creatures can be sent ahead of the party, functioning as scouts.


Almost everything that a wizard would ever want to do, they can do by summoning a creature to do it for them. The same is frustratingly true of Transmutation - it allows mages to change into whatever is needed for the current situation.

Now, I've thought about ways to limit this, but I haven't come up with any really good ones, yet. Add in the fact that those abilities are very difficult to justify with the fluff and tone of my universe... I'd rather just leave them out, and make mages do things the hard(er) way.

[Zeful]

Is this for a D&D system? Because Conjuration (etc) isn't inherently broken unless you're using D&D for a base? Is this a whole new RPG or just a mod for D&D?
Attack is weak because it only does that: attack. Specializing in attack is fine...but it's also like specializing in healing: it only does that. Specializing in any other school lets you, lets say, transform yourself, buff yourself, and bypass obstacles.

While not inherently broken (in this case meaning "breaking the system" rather than "does not do what is advertised"), there are a lot of problems inherent to Conjuration that if not handled well makes it broken.

[Zelkon]

Actually, I usually think of conjuration as conjuring stuff in general, not just creatures. Anyway, yeah, take a page from 4e and put reasonable limits on conjuration. In addition, don't add a conjuration school. Allow the schools to conjure stuff.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Attack is weak because it only does that: attack. Specializing in attack is fine...but it's also like specializing in healing: it only does that. Specializing in any other school lets you, lets say, transform yourself, buff yourself, and bypass obstacles.

Which of the listed schools lets you transform yourself, buff yourself and bypass obstacles?

Ignoring all fluff, just usage, the schools would be:

Thermodynamics, Electricity, Entropics: Attack

Projection: Illusion & Divination

Metamagic: Mental manipulation, Metamagic

Vitamancy: Healing, Buffing, Possibly De-Buffing

Formation: Bypass Obstacles, Some Battlefield Control

Spatiokinesis: Weak attacks, Battlefield Control, Flight, Melee Defense

So, in one-on-one comparisons, most of the schools don't offer a huge range. Three of the "Advanced" schools, Metamagic, Vitamancy and Projection, don't offer a huge range of versatility by themselves. Formation... is a little more complicated, but right now, it's a very item-dependent school. The one I'm most worried is over-powered would be Spatiokinesis, which actually is an attack school.

Now, if you look at it as "All of the Attack Schools" vs. "All of the Advanced Schools", then yeah, the Advanced schools win out, because the Attack Schools have a lot of redundancy. But, that's intentional - again, I don't expect that most mages would want to invest in more than one attack school.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Actually, I usually think of conjuration as conjuring stuff in general, not just creatures. Anyway, yeah, take a page from 4e and put reasonable limits on conjuration. In addition, don't add a conjuration school. Allow the schools to conjure stuff.

So, "Conjuring stuff" depends on what you're conjuring. In this system, non-creature conjurations would be sort-of covered by Formation - it can't actually create things, but it can shape existing things into the things you want them to be.

My best idea for summoning creatures (that actually fit within the fluff of my system) was something more like a renewable familiar or animal companion.

[Zelkon]

Which of the listed schools lets you transform yourself, buff yourself and bypass obstacles?

Ignoring all fluff, just usage, the schools would be:

Thermodynamics, Electricity, Entropics: Attack

Projection: Illusion & Divination

Metamagic: Mental manipulation, Metamagic

Vitamancy: Healing, Buffing, Possibly De-Buffing

Formation: Bypass Obstacles, Some Battlefield Control

Spatiokinesis: Weak attacks, Battlefield Control, Flight, Melee Defense

So, in one-on-one comparisons, most of the schools don't offer a huge range. Three of the "Advanced" schools, Metamagic, Vitamancy and Projection, don't offer a huge range of versatility by themselves. Formation... is a little more complicated, but right now, it's a very item-dependent school. The one I'm most worried is over-powered would be Spatiokinesis, which actually is an attack school.

Now, if you look at it as "All of the Attack Schools" vs. "All of the Advanced Schools", then yeah, the Advanced schools win out, because the Attack Schools have a lot of redundancy. But, that's intentional - again, I don't expect that most mages would want to invest in more than one attack school.

I was thinking in terms of 3e. But here we go:
Projection: Illusions can draw attacks, distract guards, divination allows you to choose the right tools for the job ahead of time.
Metamagic: I have no idea what metamagic means outside of it's 3.5 context, but mind effecting can stop an enemy, effectively saving you HP damage, can also allow you to get others to give you services, pretty much everything illusion does + more.
Vitamancy: Healing is just like attacks: useful to a degree, which is why it's good that it's just part of this one school, which also gets buffing. It's hard to encompass what exactly a buff is, but increasing DEX (to use D&D terms) can allow you to sneak past people, increasing STR might allow you to jump higher, longer, and the like, increasing CON allows you to say, wade through acid or hold your breath longer. A lot of the time it's just "attack better," but that's in addition to whatever else it was doing.
Formation: The perfect place to slip Conjuration, BTW. But I can't assess this without knowing more about what it does.
So, while maybe not everything I said, they obviously have more or at least equal utility than attack in many situations.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I was thinking in terms of 3e. But here we go:
Projection: Illusions can draw attacks, distract guards, divination allows you to choose the right tools for the job ahead of time.
Metamagic: I have no idea what metamagic means outside of it's 3.5 context, but mind effecting can stop an enemy, effectively saving you HP damage, can also allow you to get others to give you services, pretty much everything illusion does + more.
Vitamancy: Healing is just like attacks: useful to a degree, which is why it's good that it's just part of this one school, which also gets buffing. It's hard to encompass what exactly a buff is, but increasing DEX (to use D&D terms) can allow you to sneak past people, increasing STR might allow you to jump higher, longer, and the like, increasing CON allows you to say, wade through acid or hold your breath longer. A lot of the time it's just "attack better," but that's in addition to whatever else it was doing.
Formation: The perfect place to slip Conjuration, BTW. But I can't assess this without knowing more about what it does.
So, while maybe not everything I said, they obviously have more or at least equal utility than attack in many situations.

Well, in that sense "Attack" does multiple things as well - you could draw a distinction between quickly knocking out enemy mages, grinding down enemy front-liners by attrition, dealing ranged damage to force your enemies to break formation and attack, force your opponents to spread out to avoid AoE damage...


Transformation is the closest thing I have to conjuring - it doesn't actually create matter, but it can be used to create objects out of existing matter.

I guess for me to call a particular school unbalanced, you'd need to put it next to another specific school, and say "This one is clearly better."

[Zelkon]

Well, in that sense "Attack" does multiple things as well - you could draw a distinction between quickly knocking out enemy mages, grinding down enemy front-liners by attrition, dealing ranged damage to force your enemies to break formation and attack, force your opponents to spread out to avoid AoE damage...


Transformation is the closest thing I have to conjuring - it doesn't actually create matter, but it can be used to create objects out of existing matter.

I guess for me to call a particular school unbalanced, you'd need to put it next to another specific school, and say "This one is clearly better."

The entire attack category combined is as useful as each of the schools in the advanced category. I'm going to make my official position as "Change 'Attack' to 'Simple' and keep 'Advanced.' Simple produces straightforward effects. They happen. Something blows up. An enemy is poisoned. A wall raises out of the ground. Etc. Advanced produces effects that open up options and basically what you have now."

[FreakyCheeseMan]

The entire attack category combined is as useful as each of the schools in the advanced category. I'm going to make my official position as "Change 'Attack' to 'Simple' and keep 'Advanced.' Simple produces straightforward effects. They happen. Something blows up. An enemy is poisoned. A wall raises out of the ground. Etc. Advanced produces effects that open up options and basically what you have now."

I can re-word the language... to be honest, I never did really like the "Attack" and "Advanced" wording, although it does accurately describe what the schools do.

...except for Spatiokinesis. Spatiokinesis is just annoyingly powerful.

For the rest of your official position... I'm not quite sure what you're proposing. Re-dividing the schools, and making the "Simple" schools each cover a single specific effect?

[Zelkon]

I can re-word the language... to be honest, I never did really like the "Attack" and "Advanced" wording, although it does accurately describe what the schools do.

...except for Spatiokinesis. Spatiokinesis is just annoyingly powerful.

For the rest of your official position... I'm not quite sure what you're proposing. Re-dividing the schools, and making the "Simple" schools each cover a single specific effect?

No. Simple produces single, immediate effects. Examples: create object, fireball, daze, true strike, most attacks, detect anything, sleep, grease. Anything else falls into advanced. Examples: fly, disguise self, reduce/enlarge person, protection from arrows, summoning.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

No. Simple produces single, immediate effects. Examples: create object, fireball, daze, true strike, most attacks, detect anything, sleep, grease. Anything else falls into advanced. Examples: fly, disguise self, reduce/enlarge person, protection from arrows, summoning.

So, are these just supposed to be two different schools?

Also, I don't really see your divisions, here. "Enlarge person" does not sound like a more "Complicated" effect than sleep or detect spells. "Fly" seems at least as simple as any of the others. "Create object" has all kinds of effects that it could manifest.

At this point, it sounds like you're proposing an entirely different, unrelated system of magic, rather than changes to what I proposed.

[Zelkon]

So, are these just supposed to be two different schools?

Also, I don't really see your divisions, here. "Enlarge person" does not sound like a more "Complicated" effect than sleep or detect spells. "Fly" seems at least as simple as any of the others. "Create object" has all kinds of effects that it could manifest.

At this point, it sounds like you're proposing an entirely different, unrelated system of magic, rather than changes to what I proposed.

I'm not good at explaining stuff. It's cool. I was thinking, instead of "attack," have it be "simple" which is purely instantaneous effects and advanced is not.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I'm not good at explaining stuff. It's cool. I was thinking, instead of "attack," have it be "simple" which is purely instantaneous effects and advanced is not.

Okay, so it's based on the duration.

So, my system is a little weird about actions - basically, characters get action points of three flavors (Physical, Movement and Thought), in varying numbers; a mage might have two or three thought actions but only one physical, a rogue might have a single though action but two physical and mental, etc.

Most spells do not have a duration; rather, they're sustained by a thought action per turn. Some attack spells are also sustained. Entropics, for instance, can sustain a field that damages anyone adjacent to the caster; spatiokinesis can maintain an increased gravitational field, to hold down opponents.

[qwertyu63]

So, my issue with conjuration is that it seems to be broken in and of itself. Mages are almost always more powerful than martial classes, and Conjuration abilities make that division all the more pronounced.

My issue here is mostly a matter of personal taste. I would never play a caster using these system, as I couldn't play the archetype I enjoy (the tactical summoner).

"Attacks are weak" - is that actually based on comparing attack spells to the effects available from other schools, or just based on the fact that direct damage spells are weak in D&D?[/QUOTE]

The latter honestly... Reading closer, they aren't that far off.


Also, bear in mind that no one would be purchasing an entire set - they're just a logical division, as the schools in each set share some qualities. Like I said above, I'd expect an attack school to be a good first choice, but once you have one, there isn't as much value in picking up a second.

Alright then, that works. I still wouldn't play it, but there you have it.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

My issue here is mostly a matter of personal taste. I would never play a caster using these system, as I couldn't play the archetype I enjoy (the tactical summoner).

Hmm.

What if you had command options? I've been considering something like that - having some demi-human races be hireable as followers and front-line fodder. So, the benefits wouldn't go soley to casters (They'd be more of a party resource), and they wouldn't have all of the advantages of summons (You can't just let them soak up damage because they won't be around long anyway.)

[Frozen_Feet]

So, those are the quick descriptions. What I'm looking for is:
Do these schools seem more-or-less balanced? Which seem to strong/weak?
Are there any obvious applications of one school or another which I'm missing?
Are there any must-have effects that don't fit with any schools (I've left out summoning and major conjurations on purpose.)
Any ways I should re-arrange or re-structure the schools?


1st: Roll up Entropy into thermodynamics, because thermodynamics governs entropy. To replace Entropy, I'd suggest Elementalism: the ability to create elements (scientific elements, pay mind) in their pure form, with the power required to create an element directly proportional to the amount and complexity of the element. (Hydrogen or helium? Easy. Iron? Can do. Uranium? Getting a bit complex. Unukvandium? Hahaha no.)

Advanced schools should all directly stem from and require one or more of the attack schools. Formation and Vitamancy are part Thermodynamics and part electricity (I'll explain this below), Projection is part Electricity and part Spatiokinesis, while Metamagic is Spatiokinesis.

2nd: Boatloads.

Controlling thermodynamics (which includes entrophy, mind you) can be used to keep two elements at even temperatures despire circumstances, which allows such funny uses like carrying a fire inside a paper bag. It should allow for preventing chemicals from reacting to each other, meaning you could handle some extremely volatile elements without danger. Once you add a little bit of mundane crafting skill to the mix, you become able to do stuff like weld or sold with you bare hands, which is pretty much what your whole Formation advanced school is about. Combined with the ability to prevent elements from reacting, you could weld or sold substances that normally would be impossible to handle as their combustion point is lower than their melting point.

Controlling electromagnetism should allow for radio-like long range communication, or telepathy-like ability between fellow electricity users. A group of electricity users should be able to create a persistent magnetic field containing information, essentially becoming a living server farm. A sufficiently high electric pulse will cause a light arc, which creates ultraviolet radiation. Ultraviolet radiation has its own share of uses, of course. You could run an electric charge through a metal conductor to heat it, then shape it, or you could create a light arc and weld substances together. Once you add anything approaching modern electric appliances to the mix, controlling electricity essentially makes you a technopath. You could serve as a battery for electric motors, turn computers or light bulbs on or off from a distance etc.

Actually, looking at, it you failed to include the fairly obvious use of creating lighting to both Thermodynamics and Electricity.:smalltongue:

Spatiokinesis, in addition to the uses you listed, allows you to become two dimensional to slip through small cracks. It allows you to create objects that look smaller or larger from the outside than they actually are (see: Thardis from Doctro Who). Forget walls, a spatiokinesis user should be able to curve the path of a creature so that moving towards the caster actually makes the victim move away. A spatiokinesis user should be able to create buildings or other objects with truly bizarre topology, such as a "round" room that is actually a mobius ring, or a klein bottle. For the same reasons, spatiokinesis allows shapechanging - though it's less a physical change and more like turning in more than three dimensions so that you reveal a whole new side of yourself. With sufficient power, Spatiokinesis would allow for creation of worm holes, leading to time travel or FTL. Even the simplest use of spatiokinesis, localized changes in gravity, have a huge number of uses in mechanics. You could make a car running on nothing more than kinetic energy, for example, or a never-stopping mill.

Your advanced schools are harder to gauge, because they don't have as strong scientific connection. Formation is, as noted, just the advanced application of controlling thermodynamics or electricty. You should just be more explicit that Formation doesn't actually create any new elements. (This is what I'm suggesting you add Elementalism for.)

Alchemy is just chemistry. It shouldn't be a school of magic at all. Make alchemy a mundane skill that gives a boost to technique checks for purposes of Formation and Vitamancy.

Metamagic is a bit iffy. Dispelling, buffing, reshaping or assuming control over pre-existing magic is good. Mental magic, however, should be part of Vitamancy, unless you're going to have explicitly existing souls or the sort. It makes no sense for a school titled metamagic to control pre-existing non-magic phenomenoms. If you do have souls, then metamagic controlling your mind is essentially controlling your (magical) soul. This allows for turning or rebuking ghosts or other "undead" creatures that are dependant on soul rather than physical phenomena to exist. Actually, this runs contrary to your idea that such creatures should be "more resistant" to mental influence from metamagic - if anything, magical constructs should be more vulnerable, with ordinary people being less so, especially if you do not have explicit souls. Finally, metamagic should allow for what is essentially necromancy, ie. calling up spirits of the dead and discussing with them. Combined with vitamancy, raising the dead as either "undeads" or "constructs" or reincarnating them in a new, living body should be possible.

Vitamancy, as written, allows for breeding of completely new lifeforms. Take this into account when you devise rules for permanent mutations. Vitamancy should also include all mind control of biological beings, it'd make much more sense than stuffing them in with metamagic.

3rd: There is no lack of "summonings" or "major conjurations" (or any other conveivable effect there of) if you take your magical schools to their logical conclusions and add a healthy dose of non-magical crafting skills and knowledge of natural laws. Of course, you can ban particular effects, but expect your scientifically savvy players chuckle at you. The same energy required to use gravity to curve light to make human-sized object invisible should create a black hole. Saying you can only use electricty or thermodynamics for sudden, violent bursts will make them sad, as it cuts off most interesting uses of those two basic phenomena. Separating Entropy from Thermodynamics especially will make them roll their eyes. :smalltongue:

4th: I talked of this at multiple times, but to summarize:
Cut Entropy as a separate school and fold its effects into Thermodynamics.
Either add some fourth school or just accept you have "only" three attack schools.
Make Spatiokinesis into Telekinesis (creation of kinetic force at a distance), losing out invisibility but retaining all other of your described uses of the school, as well as many interesting mechanical uses.
Alternativaly accept and embrace the fact that you truly control space, not just movement or gravity, and realize this means all of the dimension distorting shenanigans described above are fair game. You can expect a topology student to break your brain with spatiokinesis.
Remove all mindcontrolling of biological creatures from Metamagic, and move them into Vitamancy where they belong.
Make mindcontrol of magical constructs and undead explicitly realm of Metamagic
Remove any ability create or shape matter from Projection, and make it only able to create holograms, sounds, smells etc. Trust me, it's simpler that way.
Remove "alchemy" as part of Formation. Rather, use mundane chemistry skill for crafting "alchemical" stuff with or without Formation.
Seriously consider nixing permanent mutations from Vitamancy, or expect a crazy darwinist player to break your setting with it.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

1st: Roll up Entropy into thermodynamics, because thermodynamics governs entropy.

First off, thanks for the in-depth reply - going through it bit by bit.

So, "Entropy" is actually a larger part of this universe and system - most magic functions by reducing entropy (for instance, separating a bowl of water into boiling water and ice; the energy level remains the same, but entropy is reduced. Thus, Thermodynamics decreases entropy on a very basic level, while Entropics actually increase it. If you're interested in this system, you might read this article (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LmD_VPfJEB0647jaLc5vtcdI-y0UibYuQIXDZ99o9U4/pub), which actually explains the magic system's fluff in-depth. I didn't really go into those explanations in this post because... well, because I was giving people too much to read already. (If you're *really* interested, you might check out the whole setting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271255).)



To replace Entropy, I'd suggest Elementalism: the ability to create elements (scientific elements, pay mind) in their pure form, with the power required to create an element directly proportional to the amount and complexity of the element. (Hydrogen or helium? Easy. Iron? Can do. Uranium? Getting a bit complex. Unukvandium? Hahaha no.)

Eh... that doesn't really function with either the fluff or the mechanics, unless I'm missing something. Magic doesn't create matter, in this system - and even the creation of "simple" elements could be hugely dangerous. Also, statting out rules for what effects each element could have would be headachey. Plus, scientific knowledge is limited in this setting.


Advanced schools should all directly stem from and require one or more of the attack schools. Formation and Vitamancy are part Thermodynamics and part electricity (I'll explain this below), Projection is part Electricity and part Spatiokinesis, while Metamagic is Spatiokinesis.

I could see a case for this in terms of fluff, but not so much mechanics. Also, the two are supposed to represent different lines of training - attack magic is all about focusing on creating simple effects reliably and in the face of opposition, while advanced magic covers much more intricate work. Think of it as the difference between speed-solving a rubik's cube, and studying advanced group theory. The two are related, but the skill sets are different, and neither is really a prerequisite of the other.




Controlling thermodynamics (which includes entrophy, mind you) can be used to keep two elements at even temperatures despire circumstances, which allows such funny uses like carrying a fire inside a paper bag. It should allow for preventing chemicals from reacting to each other, meaning you could handle some extremely volatile elements without danger. Once you add a little bit of mundane crafting skill to the mix, you become able to do stuff like weld or sold with you bare hands, which is pretty much what your whole Formation advanced school is about. Combined with the ability to prevent elements from reacting, you could weld or sold substances that normally would be impossible to handle as their combustion point is lower than their melting point.

Hmm... I may do this, or at least, some of this. Thermodynamic mages are only studying the most basic applications of their trade, but I could see them maybe carrying a potion which is kept on the brink of a violent chemical reaction. As for the welding with bare hands... sure. Actually, I may have included that in the fluff-version of the school descriptions.


Controlling electromagnetism should allow for radio-like long range communication, or telepathy-like ability between fellow electricity users.

D'oh. That actually was meant to be in there - seriously, it's in the fluff article (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GhQLdQMZH-nqs19stSY9BCjf6Px_TR52iHZcqVsl_Wk/pub) on this subject. I just forgot to type it, here.


A group of electricity users should be able to create a persistent magnetic field containing information, essentially becoming a living server farm. A sufficiently high electric pulse will cause a light arc, which creates ultraviolet radiation. Ultraviolet radiation has its own share of uses, of course. You could run an electric charge through a metal conductor to heat it, then shape it, or you could create a light arc and weld substances together. Once you add anything approaching modern electric appliances to the mix, controlling electricity essentially makes you a technopath. You could serve as a battery for electric motors, turn computers or light bulbs on or off from a distance etc.

So, while the magic system in this setting is meant to have a very scientific feel, actual science is kind of lacking. (One of the ideas behind that is that the same sort of mind that would make a great scientist, also makes a great mage - so a lot of the people who should have been inventors and scientists, instead focused their abilities on increasing their own personal power, instead of advancing the sum of human understanding.


Actually, looking at, it you failed to include the fairly obvious use of creating lighting to both Thermodynamics and Electricity.:smalltongue:

You're right, I totally did.


Spatiokinesis, in addition to the uses you listed, allows you to become two dimensional to slip through small cracks. It allows you to create objects that look smaller or larger from the outside than they actually are (see: Thardis from Doctro Who). Forget walls, a spatiokinesis user should be able to curve the path of a creature so that moving towards the caster actually makes the victim move away. A spatiokinesis user should be able to create buildings or other objects with truly bizarre topology, such as a "round" room that is actually a mobius ring, or a klein bottle.

I mostly wanted to limit Spatiokinesis to the creation of extreme gravitational fields - originally it was going to have teleportation as well, but I decided it was too powerful already. Actually, I may just rename it "Gravitronics" outright, cause those are the only effects I've left.


For the same reasons, spatiokinesis allows shapechanging - though it's less a physical change and more like turning in more than three dimensions so that you reveal a whole new side of yourself. With sufficient power, Spatiokinesis would allow for creation of worm holes, leading to time travel or FTL. Even the simplest use of spatiokinesis, localized changes in gravity, have a huge number of uses in mechanics. You could make a car running on nothing more than kinetic energy, for example, or a never-stopping mill.

Actually, starships in this universe (They have starships, but no technology. Whee!) generally propel themselves through spatiokinesis, plus some other stuff.




Your advanced schools are harder to gauge, because they don't have as strong scientific connection. Formation is, as noted, just the advanced application of controlling thermodynamics or electricty. You should just be more explicit that Formation doesn't actually create any new elements. (This is what I'm suggesting you add Elementalism for.)

Alchemy is just chemistry. It shouldn't be a school of magic at all. Make alchemy a mundane skill that gives a boost to technique checks for purposes of Formation and Vitamancy.

Alchemy isn't really meant to be a school, just a description of one of the applications of Formation magic, in the same way that "Illusion" is part of "Projection" magic. But yeah, Alchemy is basically meant to be chemistry, but using magic to cheat on the mechanisms.


Metamagic is a bit iffy. Dispelling, buffing, reshaping or assuming control over pre-existing magic is good. Mental magic, however, should be part of Vitamancy, unless you're going to have explicitly existing souls or the sort. It makes no sense for a school titled metamagic to control pre-existing non-magic phenomenoms. If you do have souls, then metamagic controlling your mind is essentially controlling your (magical) soul. This allows for turning or rebuking ghosts or other "undead" creatures that are dependant on soul rather than physical phenomena to exist. Actually, this runs contrary to your idea that such creatures should be "more resistant" to mental influence from metamagic - if anything, magical constructs should be more vulnerable, with ordinary people being less so, especially if you do not have explicit souls. Finally, metamagic should allow for what is essentially necromancy, ie. calling up spirits of the dead and discussing with them. Combined with vitamancy, raising the dead as either "undeads" or "constructs" or reincarnating them in a new, living body should be possible.

So, again, this is something that comes from the fluff (which I didn't include for reasons of not wanting to make everyone read any more walls of text than necessary. The idea is that, when someone casts a spell, they connect their own mind to the local magical field - essentially, give over a portion of their thought processes to the field, in order for them to exert control over it. Only casters do this consciously, but every race that's evolved towards casting does it some naturally, and even more primitive minds naturally form some connection. So, when someone's mind is controlled through metamagic, it's like them casting a spell in reverse; instead of using their mind's connection to alter the magical field through their thoughts, another caster is using their connection to the magical field to alter their thoughts.

Actually, the only reason constructs, undead, etc. can be affected is cause I didn't want Metamagic to be as limited as Enchantment is in D&D. Even though I personally like enchantment. >_>


Vitamancy, as written, allows for breeding of completely new lifeforms. Take this into account when you devise rules for permanent mutations.

Yep. In fact, in my world, "Ogres" aren't a species, they're essentially Vitamancy experimentation gone wrong.


3rd: There is no lack of "summonings" or "major conjurations" (or any other conveivable effect there of) if you take your magical schools to their logical conclusions and add a healthy dose of non-magical crafting skills and knowledge of natural laws.

So, the schools listed only cover Spellcraft - effects created on the fly. There is also Enchantment (which in my world refers to the creation of permanent magical effects), which can do a whole lot more. Spellcasting is more limited in its scope, so even if a school could theoretically do something, that doesn't put it within the power of any living mage.


Of course, you can ban particular effects, but expect your scientifically savvy players chuckle at you. The same energy required to use gravity to curve light to make human-sized object invisible should create a black hole.

My idea for invisibility was less gravitational bending, and more very slightly altering the air to refract and reflect light - less black hole, more heat ripple. But yeah, I don't have the best justification for that, within this system.


Saying you can only use electricty or thermodynamics for sudden, violent bursts will make them sad, as it cuts off most interesting uses of those two basic phenomena.

So, the purpose of the attack schools was to train very specific effects over and over, until complicated processes become instinctive. The same basic principles are used in the advanced schools, just in a different way.


Separating Entropy from Thermodynamics especially will make them roll their eyes. :smalltongue:
So, my understanding of Entropy (as a term) is that it goes beyond just the manipulation of heat; you can also say that the entropy of a structure has increased when, say, potential chemical energy is released, or when a developed physical structure comes apart.

I actually tried to find a better word for the Thermodynamics school, but... changes in heat energy *is* Thermodynamics. If you know a word for that that doesn't carry the same connotations, though, I'd love to hear it.



Make Spatiokinesis into Telekinesis (creation of kinetic force at a distance), losing out invisibility but retaining all other of your described uses of the school, as well as many interesting mechanical uses.

Sure. I may call it Gravitronics, or just "Force", but yeah, basically that. I'd already cut the stuff (Teleportation, stretching and condensing space) that made me name it Spatiokinesis in the first place.


Alternativaly accept and embrace the fact that you truly control space, not just movement or gravity, and realize this means all of the dimension distorting shenanigans described above are fair game. You can expect a topology student to break your brain with spatiokinesis.

But not to tell his coffee cup from his doughnut. :P
There are some effects like that that I wanted to include, but haven't seen a good way to fit them in - Teleportation, for instance, would be nice to have, but it doesn't really fit with any school but Spatiokinesis, and that school has too many goodies already. Maybe Projection...

Trying to maintain realism with the fluff while balancing for mechanics is tough.


Remove any ability create or shape matter from Projection, and make it only able to create holograms, sounds, smells etc. Trust me, it's simpler that way.

I may, but I'm trying to keep everything justified within the setting, and the best explanations I could come up with for "Illusions" also covered some physical alterations. I guess I could fold Illusion and Divination into metamagic, but that might be too much for one school Hrrm.



Seriously consider nixing permanent mutations from Vitamancy, or expect a crazy darwinist player to break your setting with it.

Heh. It would be difficult for a player to acquire the resources (dedicated laboratories, staff, test subjects) needed, but crazy Darwinists trying to break the setting are part of the setting. There's an entire star system that runs as a magical biological weapons laboratory and gift shop.

[Frozen_Feet]

When you put it that way, I can see some sense if keeping Entropy as a separate school if you allow it to maintain or restore structure in addition to destroying it. Obvious use include previously mentioned prevention of chemical reactions, but others would be creating indestructible items or repairing a recently broken item. The former could serve as a short-term defensive buff. Obviously can't make yourself wholly indestructible this way, stop your structure from changing = stop yourself from thinking = spell ends.

But your tidbits on metamagic make me just more convinced that it should be more effective on magical constructs etc. that have their bodies and minds run completely on magic. On another hand, metamagic maybe could be used to implement long-range communication as well, by sending messages through the magical field.

Can a mind be wholly transferred/translated into a magical field? That might give an interesting answer to the question what ghosts or spirits are in your setting. Of course, such magical construct would be extremely vulnerable to being affected by metamagic. Alternatively, metamagic might be able to shift a mind from one body to another, akin to Magic Jar spell from D&D.

Metamagic could also be used as sort of "curse" or Mindblank by severing a creature's connection to the magical field, making it unable to use magic and unable to be affected by metamagic.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

When you put it that way, I can see some sense if keeping Entropy as a separate school if you allow it to maintain or restore structure in addition to destroying it. Obvious use include previously mentioned prevention of chemical reactions, but others would be creating indestructible items or repairing a recently broken item. The former could serve as a short-term defensive buff. Obviously can't make yourself wholly indestructible this way, stop your structure from changing = stop yourself from thinking = spell ends.

So, in this world, magic is generated when structure is lost - think the same way that heat is generated when chemical bonds break down. Almost all magic is about creating structure, at least in the short term; entropics is the single weirdo field that directly removes it. In a way, every school deals with entropy - it's just that all of the others deal with decreasing it, not increasing it.


But your tidbits on metamagic make me just more convinced that it should be more effective on magical constructs etc. that have their bodies and minds run completely on magic. On another hand, metamagic maybe could be used to implement long-range communication as well, by sending messages through the magical field.

Hrrm.
Okay, yeah, I see what you mean, with a slightly odd condition - controlling constructs and the undead would work through the direct magical manipulation side, not the mind manipulation side. If that makes sense. Long-range communications within a magical field might be metamagic, or they might be projection, I haven't really decided.


Can a mind be wholly transferred/translated into a magical field? That might give an interesting answer to the question what ghosts or spirits are in your setting. Of course, such magical construct would be extremely vulnerable to being affected by metamagic. Alternatively, metamagic might be able to shift a mind from one body to another, akin to Magic Jar spell from D&D.

Yeah, that's probably how ghosts work in this system (Which makes them completely different from corporeal undead, but oh well.) There are also some hive-mind type operations, on some planets.


Metamagic could also be used as sort of "curse" or Mindblank by severing a creature's connection to the magical field, making it unable to use magic and unable to be affected by metamagic.

I had one defensive spell in mind, that would work like that - but yeah, it could work offensively as well.

Oh, if you have an interest in this sort of science-y magic stuff, and are willing to read massive walls of text (Which you seem to be), you might check out the link in my signature- that's the world for which this setting is written.