Suggestions to bring martial classes up to Tier 2/3? [Archive]

Asrrin

2013-02-22, 03:56 PM

Hey all,

Been lurking here a while, just created an account. A friend of mine and I are going to be starting up a 3.X campaign in Faerun, with him as the DM and me as the most senior PC. All the other PC's will be newbies who've either never played or played way back during 1st ED.

I will be playing a sorcerer, but I know I tend to try and optimize as much as I can (though I will be reigning it in to some degree simply because of the other players). Despite this, I want to try and get every player as close as possible to being similar in power levels. It would not be fun for one of the players to be a samurai for instance, while I'm planning on being a mid-high optimized sorcerer.

Because of this unique situation, the DM is giving me the task of whipping up a balanced party, as the new players will basically just give me what archetype they want to be and I will be building the character for them. Here are the potential roles that will be included:

Sorcerer (Me): battlefield control, AoE, Party Face.
Skill Monkey, Sneak Attack
Archer, TWF
healbot, buff/debuffer

We may or may not have a 5th, and he'd be the meat shield, if not, the healbot and I (with polymorph cheese or summons) can tank. The only stipulation for classes is no druids, because they factor into the story.

How can I buff up the core classes (as these are newbies) to get them to Tier 3, possibly tier 2? We'd probably end up with a ranger, a rogue, and some sort of fighter or barb. The only thing I ask is to try and avoid gishes and complicated PrC's, because this is a first time game for most of the people.

Thanks in advance for the help!

EDIT: Anything 3.0 or 3.5 would be useful, though I've never read ToB, but homebrew stuff is welcome as well.

Zman

2013-02-22, 04:01 PM

You can't buff them to Tier 2, that is solely the realm of casters. Tier 3 is even arguable, but they certainly can make high Tier 4. Most place ToB as Tier 3, but I would place them as overpowered High Tier 4s.

Either way, if you are interested you can check out my Overhau and class remakesl, it's in my Homebrew signature. I have class remakes of most base classes, the overhaul itself has much more than you are looking for, but the classes will serve you well especially Ranger and Rogue, and using my Sorcerer and Cleric with my Minor Magic fix will help stop you from going overboard.

Xerxus

2013-02-22, 04:08 PM

Give Fighters 6+int skill points and various useful class skills. Put bonus feats on all "empty" levels and it's probably a good idea to have him use a bow. Give him Uncanny Dodge + improved and evasion (maybe not improved), as well as some sort of +1 competence to ref+will that scales slowly. Just a few ideas on how you could modify them homebrew style.

Asrrin

2013-02-22, 04:10 PM

I'm open to pretty much anything as long as I can accurately convey it to the new players. for instance, I was throwing around the idea of making a fighter/barbarian gesalt, but didn't know where that fell into the power scale.

Murmaider

2013-02-22, 04:11 PM

Why core classes only? You'd be better off introducing your party to tome of battle instead.

Why? Because bringing core classes up to tier 3, let alone tier 2(I doubt that for some of those classes it's even possible) would require way more rules knowledge on the part of your players than simply letting them play a Warblade or a Crusader.

And it would most likely involve magic too.

If your dm insists on no ToB, or ToB just isn't available to you and your group, do what is done since the days of old:

Let them play whatever they want and not worry too much about tiers.

Xerxus

2013-02-22, 04:12 PM

Asrrin

2013-02-22, 04:19 PM

Fighter/Rogue with TWF could be cool. But I guess it fills two roles.

That actually might not be a bad option, if only because our 5th is iffy, and if we are down to 4 that would cover the role.

As to ToB, It's not banned outright, it's just that neither the DM or I have read much up on it. I don't want to bombard the other players with stuff way over their heads, but I also want to make sure that they stay relevant to the game past level 2.

Dragonmuncher

2013-02-22, 04:23 PM

Three possibilities:

1) Get Tome of Battle. It's fun, flavorful, and the abilities work essentially like wizard spells (have a set # prepared, burn them (although they do get refreshed throughout the day))

2) Give the fighter more feats, and maybe read up on some of the fighter feats in splatbooks like Player's Handbook 2

3) Make them as normal (though more skill points can't hurt), and just don't play as a crazy-awesome sorceror, so they still have fun. After all, Tiers are kind of relative- if you don't solve every encounter with one spell, then they won't KNOW they're underpowered, and fun will be had by all.

elonin

2013-02-22, 05:00 PM

Isn't this what e6 was made for? Also, how would allowing gestalt for those who play melee? Barbarian ranger or barbarian scout might make it to teir 3.

Malroth

2013-02-22, 05:02 PM

Tank: Elan Psionic warrior with a fighter dip for exotic weapon proficiency spiked chain. Grab Combat reflexes, Power attack, Psicrystal affinity, Psicrystal containment, Improved trip, Stand Still, Knockback, Psionic strike, Deep impact and expanded Knowledge Metamorphisis.

Archer: Wis focused Elf cleric with Zen archery, Knowledge and travel Devotions Dump Dex and wear heavy armour.

TWF: Good Silverbrow Human Bard 10/ Sublime Chord 10
Melodic Casting, Dragonfire Inspiration, Two Weapon Fighting, Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, Improved 2 weapon Fighting.

Healbot: wand of lesser vigor purchased from pooled party funds after their first adventure.

Spuddles

2013-02-22, 05:28 PM

I would recommend having at, the very least, all melee play ToB. It really well covers a lot of melee weaknesses in combat and is hard to mess up. Really optimizes itself. I would also give them a domain at first level and every 6 levels after. They can pick any mental stat they want to govern casting it. They can use each domain spell once per day. That would give them 4 level 9 spells at level 18, which is about on par with a wizard, but from a narrower list.

Really, if you're melee, t3 is achieved by using knockdown, reach, and tome of battle. To get to tier 2, you need spells like plane shift, teleport, dominate person, improved invisibility, true seeing, and all the other crazy stuff casters get.

Tar Palantir

2013-02-22, 05:36 PM

That actually might not be a bad option, if only because our 5th is iffy, and if we are down to 4 that would cover the role.

As to ToB, It's not banned outright, it's just that neither the DM or I have read much up on it. I don't want to bombard the other players with stuff way over their heads, but I also want to make sure that they stay relevant to the game past level 2.

Trust me, learning and teaching ToB is way easier than trying to make Tier 3 replacement classes yourself (Tier 2 is basically impossible without casting). The only thing at all complicated is the way multiclassing works (your initiator level [read: ToB caster level] equals your initiating class plus half your other classes), so sticking to single-class characters is recommended to start. Print up the maneuver cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a); they make the Crusader recovery mechanic really easy and intuitive, and since they have the full maneuver text printed on the card it makes figuring things out in combat a hell of a lot easier than with, say, a new sorcerer character. One of the easiest subsystems to learn, and one of the best for improving melee/caster parity.

Qc Storm

2013-02-22, 05:46 PM

Seconding ToB. Someone joined my game a few months ago. He knew absolutely nothing about D&D, or P&P RPGs. Or RPGs in general.

I made him a crusader. He doesn't want to play anything non ToB now.

Xerxus

2013-02-22, 05:50 PM

It's sad that melee fighters should have to employ maneuvers (also known as spells) in order to catch up a bit. The whole point with martial characters has to me been the lack of spellcasting and magical abilities. I think the whole 1/day(week, hour, encounter, whatever) should be restricted to spellcasters and magic items.

javijuji

2013-02-22, 05:55 PM

Murmaider

2013-02-22, 05:56 PM

Bob

2013-02-22, 06:07 PM

"Higher teir" classes are always effective because effectiveness is built into their class features. If a "lower teir" class wanted to duplicate this effectiveness, he would have to seek out an appropriate magic item, as it is not simply built into him. As long as such items are attainable, those classes with less effective features should still be able to perform, within reason, within their roles.

The disparity in power between full casting progression classes and non casting classes should not be strongly felt until CLs in the early to late teens depending on optimization.

Xerxus

2013-02-22, 06:13 PM

Asrrin

2013-02-22, 06:15 PM

I believe building other peoples character pages is just wrong. Part of the learning experience is getting to make your own sheet. It will hinder them if you do it for them since they wont know what half the stuff on their sheets does.

I guess I simplified a bit. I'll be working with each player one on one prior to us starting the campaign, to get a feel for what kind of character they want to play. However, I tried doing a group character creation with another group of friends and it completely turned them off to the whole idea of D&D because it was way too complicated. I'm pretty much going to use a point buy/pre-generated stat system, and give them the recommended starting feats/skills/class abilities, and let them choose all the fluff.

So from what I am reading from others is that a fighter type is really only going to stand a chance if he uses ToB. If that's how it has to be, so be it. I'll pick up a copy of the book and start reading up on it.

As far as the Ranger is concerned, I see it has a wildshaping variant that's pretty powerful if the DM lets them use feats to upgrade the wildshape. I think I might look into it more. any opinions on this?

So that leaves the skill monkey. What's the newbie friendliest way to get a Rogue or rogue-like class up to tier 3?

Murmaider

2013-02-22, 06:18 PM

Xerxus

2013-02-22, 06:22 PM

So, maneuvers are not real maneuvers?:smallconfused:

ToB does most of the things you mentioned in form of maneuvers except for the additional skills and the old stand still, which I don't know what it is.

Combat maneuvers ie trip and disarm, only new ones which could apply paralyze etc. Stand still is essentially using an AoO to stop an opponent from moving away from you.

Spuddles

2013-02-22, 06:40 PM

Giving Fighters 8+Int skill points (and Rogues like 12+Int with skill mastery in everything or something), scaling AC as a class feature and creating better real maneuvers. Like applying serious conditions such as stun and paralyze. Creating more Fighter-specific feats. Like bringing back the old Stand Still as a fighter feat and improving it. Improving other combat feats that already exist, such as combat expertise actually doing something useful (+2 AC per -1 to hit?). How much more is necessary?

How do you deal with force effects? The buffs a dragon has up? A flying opponent with windwall/protectiom from arrows? Can you travel 100 miles per level as a standard action? Can you scout an entire dungeon without putting yourself at risk? Can you hop on over to sigil for a brief shoppin trip? Can you recruit powerful allies, whether they want it or not? Can you deal with difficult environments, like swimming in acid or lava? Can you easily transport 10,000,000 copper coins? Can you prevent someone from entering the battlefield from up to a quarter mile away? Can you control weather? Manipulate time? Get 3 actions a turn?

Until you can do these (which a sorcer can do all of these and still have room for fireball), you are going to be forever at the bottom of t3.

Murmaider

2013-02-22, 06:40 PM

Combat maneuvers ie trip and disarm, only new ones which could apply paralyze etc. Stand still is essentially using an AoO to stop an opponent from moving away from you.

Okay, I agree, WotC could've added more combat maneuvers, but they're essentially the same as ToB maneuvers, except that you can't spam them over and over.

So, if I understand that correctly your beef is with the once per encounter(technically, you can refresh them more often) mechanic of the ToB maneuvers. I get that. Not my opinion but I can see why you wouldn't like it.

@OP: I hate to say it, but as a rogue substitution... Swordsage?

Wildshape ranger is solid, but did the player really have that in mind when he wanted to play a ranger?

Another Edit: It's not that figher types only stand a chance when picking up ToB, but it's the simplest solution to raise their powerlevel and make them more 'complex' to play.

But as I said before, if you can restrain yourself and don't use every dirty trick you find on the internet, your buddies will do just fine with the core classes.

Malroth

2013-02-22, 06:43 PM

So that leaves the skill monkey. What's the newbie friendliest way to get a Rogue or rogue-like class up to tier 3?

Be a bard with feats that optimize your inspire courage. Dip mindbender with mindsight to automaticly be able to detect anything with an INT score within 100 feet, use mentaly enslaved bandits to find traps.

Xerxus

2013-02-22, 06:44 PM

How do you deal with force effects? The buffs a dragon has up? A flying opponent with windwall/protectiom from arrows? Can you travel 100 miles per level as a standard action? Can you scout an entire dungeon without putting yourself at risk? Can you hop on over to sigil for a brief shoppin trip? Can you recruit powerful allies, whether they want it or not? Can you deal with difficult environments, like swimming in acid or lava? Can you easily transport 10,000,000 copper coins? Can you prevent someone from entering the battlefield from up to a quarter mile away? Can you control weather? Manipulate time? Get 3 actions a turn?

Until you can do these (which a sorcer can do all of these and still have room for fireball), you are going to be forever at the bottom of t3.

So it is tier three then? That is the goal after all. My next fix would be removing 99% of all spells, especially the ones that emulate other classes' features.

Asrrin

2013-02-22, 06:49 PM

Ok ok guys, I get that bringing up a non-caster class up to tier 2 is unfeasible, no need to fight. But certainly Tier 3 is doable, as ToB has shown.

As to my skill monkey, she wants to do traditional rogue-esk things like sneak attack and pick pocketing and sneaking around. I know Beguiler is the tier 2/3 replacement, but how about a rogue or scout that prestiges into something later? Will a rogue prestige bump her character up to tier 3?

Spuddles

2013-02-22, 06:53 PM

So it is tier three then? That is the goal after all. My next fix would be removing 99% of all spells, especially the ones that emulate other classes' features.

You are looking at tier 3/4, this thread is about 2/3. But lower tiers need less reliance on full round attacks because spending all your actions to do some damage is lame. You also need more defenses.

If you've ever played ToB, you'll realize that they're largely balanced around action use. All their actions are pretty good, but they can't spam the same thing over and over, so have to be careful with their resources. Including using an immediate action to deflect a beholder's eye ray or save it for a swift action for mobility.

Xerxus

2013-02-22, 07:09 PM

Quietus

2013-02-22, 07:38 PM

Some ideas: Feat trees for shields that increase the base shield bonus to AC dramatically and add it to touch AC. Shield gives you evasion, then improved evasion. Feats that force enemies to attack you by: 1, making all movement away from you provoke AoOs, 2, making AoOs into maneuvers where if you hit your opponent his movement is blocked and his action is lost and 3, making any action other than attacking you or targeting you with a spell provoke an AoO. New combat maneuvers that paralyze opponents for 1 round, etc.

To that latter : Thicket of Blades (From ToB, Level 3 Devoted Spirit stance) and Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill). The stance makes it so any movement - withdraw, five foot step, etc - still provoke. Stand Still lets you take that AoO and instead of doing damage, force a reflex save (DC 10 + damage that would have been dealt), and if they don't pass that save, they can't move.

Curmudgeon

2013-02-22, 07:55 PM

How can I buff up the core classes (as these are newbies) to get them to Tier 3, possibly tier 2?
You're not going to get there without house rules, so here's my suggestion:

Classes which are not primary spellcasters (i.e., do not get any spellcasting at level 1) get their class features 2x as fast. That is, at level 1 a Rogue gets sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding and evasion; at level 2 the Rogue gets sneak attack boosted to +2d6, trap sense +1, and uncanny dodge; and so on. The Fighter would get 2 Fighter Bonus Feats at level 1, and 1 FBF at level 2. BAB and saving throws are included, so a Fighter would get BAB +4 at level 2, and a Monk would get BAB +3 at level 2. Adjust racial substitution levels and the levels referenced in ACFs accordingly.
If the class is not a primary spellcasting class and it has a choice of bonus feats or class abilities, it gets 2x the choices. So a Monk gets all their 6 bonus feats (4 of them at level 1), and a Ranger gets both combat styles. Rogues get 2x their special abilities (starting at level 5; see the first point).
If you have no levels in any classes with spellcasting or spell-like abilities you get free +2 level adjustment. If you have spellcasting/SLA classes but no levels in primary spellcasting classes you instead get free +1 level adjustment.
If you have no levels in primary spellcasting classes, class level prerequisites listed in feats are halved. So Weapon Specialization would require only Fighter level 2nd rather than Fighter level 4th.
If your first class is not a primary spellcasting class you get an extra 2,000 gp in starting gold.
If you acquire even a single level in a primary spellcasting class, you lose all of the above benefits (retroactively if necessary).
If the class does not have any spellcasting or spell-like abilities, you get a free racial feat.
Classes which are not primary spellcasters also get an extra feat at every even level in that class. So Rogues, Rangers, Fighters, Monks, & c. would also get an extra feat at levels 2, 4, 6, .. in each of those classes.
If the class does not have any spellcasting or spell-like abilities, your skill points are 1.5x the normal (so the Rogue gets 1.5 x (8 + INT mod) = 12 + 1.5 x INT mod; round down).
Also for classes with no spellcasting or SLAs, pick 1.5 x the normal number of skill points and add that many skills to your list of class skills. So 3 new class skills for Fighters, and 12 new class skills for Rogues. (Remember that Craft, Knowledge, and Profession skills all have to be taken individually.)
Some classes will still need extra attention. Monks, for instance, need alternate choices to replace many of their class features.

Soranar

2013-02-22, 08:29 PM

Alright, here's my 2 cents

as mentioned before, any TOB class is tier 3

Other martial classes that can be tier 3

Wildshape ranger (with or without sword of the arcane order)

Duskblade

Factotum

Psychic warrior

Martial classes that can achieve tier 3 with a lot of optimization

some paladin builds (usually involves sword of the arcane order)

-optimize your mount and your spellcasting, the access to level 4 wizard spells alone makes you tier 3 but you manage to do that and do something else on top of it

-other option is the smite to song optimization that turn your paladin into a more melee oriented Bard)

some debuffs builds (hexblade 4/ Paladin of tyranny 4/ x CHA based classes, often includes the unseelie court fey template)

-debuff opposing saves significantly enough that just about anything will work on opposing creatures (poison, demoralization, save or suck SU/EX attacks gained from feats/templates/races, etc)
-your own saves should be extremely high and your physical damage output should be decent
-Basically, be more than just a tank

certain barbarian builds can be unusually versatile

-normal rage ubercharger +
-trapkiller /tracker
-intimidate build

(as above you have 1 trick but you also have enough backup tricks to stay relevant, since intimidation can effectively replace diplomacy in most situations an intimidate build is quite versatile)

Psionic gishes can easily be tier 3 or more

-lurks
-ardents
-psychic rogues
-wilder

If you must try to make normal classes more versatile

-more skillpoints and better skill lists help
-more feats help
-stronger/better class features (make situational abilities consistently good, for example give more smites to the paladin and make them work against anything)

Spuddles

2013-02-22, 09:07 PM

If they are new players, just steer them towards ToB. It's easy to learn, hard to mess up, and fun to play. As written, most stuff like trips, grapples, etc just dont work well.

ToB is balanced and interesting. It gets along well with T2 battlefield control. They're durable classes, with good "oh ****" button. They are notoriously hard to "play wrong". There are barely any trap choices. There are few rules issues that need adjudication. Even though there is no official errata, the online homebrew errata works great for DMs.

I strongly recommend using ToB. A long list of confusing rules to supplement the crap in books can be a chore.

Some ideas: Feat trees for shields that increase the base shield bonus to AC dramatically and add it to touch AC. Shield gives you evasion, then improved evasion. Feats that force enemies to attack you by: 1, making all movement away from you provoke AoOs, 2, making AoOs into maneuvers where if you hit your opponent his movement is blocked and his action is lost and 3, making any action other than attacking you or targeting you with a spell provoke an AoO. New combat maneuvers that paralyze opponents for 1 round, etc.

The problem with a lot of that stuff is spammability and it's rather boring. Sky high AC just means you face stronger monsters. Having resources that you can either use to spend to deflect an attack or land an attack is fun, interesting, and adds a layer of strategic complexity. The problem with most fighter 'fixes' is that they just add some numbers, but you are still "I attack, attack, gee I hope he rolls low". They're sort of boring, tbh. Most of the fun I see traditional martial characters have is "crit! Yay!"

I play with an old grognard. He's been gaming 26 years. He used to own a gaming store. He loves fighters. He was skeptical of the book of fightin magic. I convinced him to play a warblade. He loved it. Suddenly his fighter could shrug of the hag's curse and jump up the wall and bash through a demon's dr to send it back to the abyss.

If you want, I will run you a short pbp just so you can see if you like it, if you havent tried it before.

Xerxus

2013-02-22, 09:28 PM

I've built various fun swordsages and warblades, but still, why should fighters be given the shaft?

And I don't know what you mean by facing stronger monsters. If a DM wants to scale up AC because the fighter has too high averages or vice versa then sure, it won't be possible to use a fighter. But would a DM not then have to scale up all SR according to how many spell penetration feats the wizard has?

As for how boring the traditional fighter is, that's the point of the old combat maneuvers. Tripping, disarming, sundering and more if they had expanded it, instead of just releasing new classes with a new kind of special ability.

Not everyone wants to be a magician, or a magician with a sword like the ToB classes. So why deny them that opportunity, when you can just houserule the fighter to a higher power level?

Shining Wrath

2013-02-22, 10:08 PM

Skill Monkey / Sneak Attack: Factorum with some Swordsage mixed in.
Healbot: A cleric is tier 1 to begin with. Do the cleric right and no troubles.
Archer / TWF: The "striker" role. Ranger / scout.

In order to empower the lower tier folks I suggest the following house rules:
1) More levels granting feats for non casters
2) More skill points per level for non casters
3) Reduce the prices of weapons and armor
4) Invent some new feats; for example, a power-attack equivalent for archery, or sneak attacks without combat advantage if some other condition is reached (a bluff check + a tumble check = sneak attack as they were looking at the hand that no longer held the weapon)

Talakeal

2013-02-22, 10:16 PM

How do you deal with force effects? The buffs a dragon has up? A flying opponent with windwall/protectiom from arrows? Can you travel 100 miles per level as a standard action? Can you scout an entire dungeon without putting yourself at risk? Can you hop on over to sigil for a brief shoppin trip? Can you recruit powerful allies, whether they want it or not? Can you deal with difficult environments, like swimming in acid or lava? Can you easily transport 10,000,000 copper coins? Can you prevent someone from entering the battlefield from up to a quarter mile away? Can you control weather? Manipulate time? Get 3 actions a turn?

Until you can do these (which a sorcer can do all of these and still have room for fireball), you are going to be forever at the bottom of t3.

My monk can do all of that, just not alone. The only way you can accomplish a tier 1 or 2 mundane is going to be through social means, and that is where your buffs need to lie.

Karnith

2013-02-23, 01:17 AM

My fighter can do all of that, just not alone. The only way you can accomplish a tier 1 or 2 mundane is going to be through social means, and that is where your buffs need to lie.
Well, then you aren't tier 1 or 2, you just know people who are. A tier ranking rates the effectiveness of the class itself, not anyone else. Being able to get other people to complete those tasks merely means that they are higher tier. In much the same way, most of those tasks listed can be accomplished by magic items replicating spells, but those are not a reflection of any given class, merely the ability to mimic the abilities of more powerful classes.

Talakeal

2013-02-23, 01:35 AM

Well, then you aren't tier 1 or 2, you just know people who are. A tier ranking rates the effectiveness of the class itself, not anyone else. Being able to get other people to complete those tasks merely means that they are higher tier. In much the same way, most of those tasks listed can be accomplished by magic items replicating spells, but those are not a reflection of any given class, merely the ability to mimic the abilities of more powerful classes.

I didn't say I was tier one. I was simply responding to the statement that there are certain things a low tier character can never do. If you have enough connections personal "power" is almost completely divorced from actual ability to influence the world.

At least until you get into the realm of TO silliness, but if that is the case then just play pun pun, who is I believe a paladin, low tier 4 iirc.

Karnith

2013-02-23, 01:45 AM

I didn't say I was tier one. I was simply responding to the statement that there are certain things a low tier character can never do. If you have enough connections personal "power" is almost completely divorced from actual ability to influence the world.
While true, that is not related to the mechanical effectiveness of melee classes, which is the topic of discussion. Your statement that "The only way you can accomplish a tier 1 or 2 mundane is going to be through social means" is misleading, because that is not actually being tier 1 or tier 2. That a fighter may have friends who are capable of doing many powerful things is not a reflection of the fighter class; anyone can have friends like that (and fighters are not especially adept at having friends), and if your friends are the ones solving the problems, then you are not particularly effective. They are.

Convincing someone else to solve your problems is only one way of dealing with an encounter, and is moreover unreliable and often inappropriate.

Talakeal

2013-02-23, 01:53 AM

While true, that is not related to the mechanical effectiveness of melee classes, which is the topic of discussion. Your statement that "The only way you can accomplish a tier 1 or 2 mundane is going to be through social means" is misleading, because that is not actually being tier 1 or tier 2. That a fighter may have friends who are capable of doing many powerful things is not a reflection of the fighter class; anyone can have friends like that (and fighters are not especially adept at having friends), and if your friends are the ones solving the problems, then you are not particularly effective. They are.

Convincing someone else to solve your problems is only one way of dealing with an encounter, and is moreover unreliable and often inappropriate.

I was not talking about friends, atleast not exclusively.

Maybe in third edition you are corect, but in first and second warrior types were mechanically superior when it came to attracting followers and building kingdoms. Third Ed fighters suck at social stuff, which is what needs to be fixed. The thread is about buffing melee characters to be able to operate on the same level as casters, and IMO the best, perhaps only, way to do this is a massive buff to social abilities.

For example, the president of a nation commands the entire army even though most individual soldiers would beat the president in a fair fight. Would anyone argue that a private is a more powerful or important person than the president?

zlefin

2013-02-23, 02:07 AM

the simplest solution would be free gestalting for the martial classes; that can get some of them to 3, and many to a high 4.
It also depends what levels you're going to be playing at; at low levels the tiers are less strongly differentiated; so if the campaign won't go past 6 it's less of a problem.

if you put a bit more detail about what each player wants I could make up a good mix of gestalt combinations.

Lans

2013-02-23, 03:58 AM

The only conceivable mechanic that could make a martial character T2, would be through the skill system. Between diplomancy, balancing on clouds, gather information, defeating illusions, detecting surface thoughts, making your friends disappear as a free action you should be tier 2. Most of its from diplomancy though.

Spuddles

2013-02-23, 04:08 AM

Have you actually played ToB classes, though? The system is really well done, and it practice, it doesn't actually feel like magic.

The 3.x mechanic is sort of built around "magic", where limited resources are the name of the game.

High armor class becomes too binary. If a spellcaster is using assay sr every combat, or is using souped up saves, the dm is just going to scale up the saves.

Higher ac doesn't solve any problems. You still get dominated, you still can't deal with a chasm with archers on the otherside, or a dragon strafing.

Thespianus

2013-02-23, 04:13 AM

As to my skill monkey, she wants to do traditional rogue-esk things like sneak attack and pick pocketing and sneaking around. I know Beguiler is the tier 2/3 replacement, but how about a rogue or scout that prestiges into something later? Will a rogue prestige bump her character up to tier 3?
Not unless you add spell casting. Wizard 1/Rogue 4/Unseen Seer X (or similar) gives a great boost.

Unseen Seer is in Complete Mage, and adds 3/4 BAB, ful spell casting, and a few sneak attack dice. Also opens up for getting Hunter's Eye (PH2, I believe) off the Ranger's spell list, for another nice boost to Sneak Attacks.

Almost all the good Rogue stuff is available, but the spell casting really really helps.

dspeyer

2013-02-23, 02:35 PM

Skill Monkey, Sneak Attack

Factotum / Swordsage. Swordsages benefit from late entry. Lots of skills to go around, brains over brawn gives great early stealth, shadow hand offers lots of ways to attack by sneaking (even if you have only 3d6 of actual sneak attack damage) and diamond mind lets him do real damage with a light weapon.

Granted, this has a lot of class features to keep track of, but that tends to be the nature of effective skill monkeys.

Archer, TWF

AFAIK, there's no way to be an effective archer without homebrew.

So, warblade who swaps out stone dragon and white raven for iron rain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8103297&postcount=1) and falcon's eye (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145802).

healbot, buff/debuffer

Spontaneous cleric with dmm(reach) and dmm(chain).

We may or may not have a 5th, and he'd be the meat shield

Ogre Mage Crusader. House-rule the LA down to +3, which is about reasonable.