[PF] The Dread Class

[Velikolepni]

Has anyone tried the Dread class?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/dread

Are there any good builds for it? The only one I can see right now is to use Broken Dreams Style to boost damage.

It seems to me that the class has a lot of problems doing damage and is too easily defeated by undead enemies.

Any opinions?

[Psyren]

Dreads can handle undead just fine with the right tools; if you're worried about their capabilities in this area, use Expanded Knowledge to pick up powers like Astral Construct or Concussive Blast.

It's true that most of their stuff is mind-affecting - they are sort of like anti-bards in that respect - but they are still full manifesters and so can handle threats that many other classes cannot. Many of their Terrors are also self-buffs as well, like Nightmare Form, that are effective against any foe. And their Shadow Twin turns them into Dvati.

[subject42]

Assuming you multiclassed Dread 3/Paladin 3, would you cancel out your own fear immunity?

[Psyren]

Assuming you multiclassed Dread 3/Paladin 3, would you cancel out your own fear immunity?

The first part of the ability specifies enemies, but it's ambiguous even so. That may be a question for Bacris (Jeremy). But I would say it wasn't intended to apply to the Dread herself.

[Velikolepni]

Dreads can handle undead just fine with the right tools; if you're worried about their capabilities in this area, use Expanded Knowledge to pick up powers like Astral Construct or Concussive Blast.

They really don't get enough power points for such things though. The Dread is essentially a Psychic Warrior that debuffs enemies, has a worse power list than the Psychic Warrior, is a worse warrior (worse proficiencies and no paths) and does not get bonus feats, so getting useful powers like Astral Construct requires a greater sacrifice.

It really bothers me, because I like the flavor of the class but think it is badly executed. Looking at the alternate class features doesn't improve my opinion. The Shadow Hunter seems simply bad and the Fear in Flesh cannot, if I am reading the thing correctly, augment the Claw of the Beast power that it gets, making it quite useless at higher levels. The nightmare constructor on the other hand could be good, it is hard to say.




It's true that most of their stuff is mind-affecting - they are sort of like anti-bards in that respect - but they are still full manifesters and so can handle threats that many other classes cannot. Many of their Terrors are also self-buffs as well, like Nightmare Form, that are effective against any foe. And their Shadow Twin turns them into Dvati.

Nightmare Form annoys me a lot, because it doesn't synnergise very well with the rest of the class. For one, Dreads don't get Innertial Armour on their power list, which would have been nice because they lose their armour bonus while using Nightmare Form. Furthermore, since they cannot attack with weapons in Nightmare Form, they are forced to use the combination - Devastating Touch + Style of Broken Dreams to do any substantial damage, so they have to invest a lot of feats.

I want to like that class, but what I am reading is not helping.

[Velikolepni]

And their Shadow Twin turns them into Dvati.

The Shadow Twin ability is completely useless agains enemies that are immune to mind affecting abilities! Essentially, do not play the Dread unless the DM has given you a document signed in blood that guarantees the complete absense of undead creatures in the campain.

On the other hand, the Nightmare constructor alternate class seems quite useful and is essentially a Summoner. I cannot say which one is stronger, but initial reading favors the Summoner.

[Psyren]

The Shadow Twin ability is completely useless agains enemies that are immune to mind affecting abilities!

...What are you talking about? Are you reading the class correctly? It doesn't say a thing about the twin being mind-affecting.


They really don't get enough power points for such things though. The Dread is essentially a Psychic Warrior that debuffs enemies, has a worse power list than the Psychic Warrior, is a worse warrior (worse proficiencies and no paths) and does not get bonus feats, so getting useful powers like Astral Construct requires a greater sacrifice.

Eh, I still think you're overreacting. Again, they are meant to be more bard than warrior; note the skill points, note the Cha focus. So it's fine for them to be a little weaker in a fight. A solo (PF) bard would have problems dealing with undead too.

Arguably, anything non-mindless is subject to their fear so there are a lot of enemies you can affect.

It's not my favorite new class either (those would be the Vitalist and Cryptic) but I still think it can hold its own fine.

[Velikolepni]

...What are you talking about? Are you reading the class correctly? It doesn't say a thing about the twin being mind-affecting.


The twin doesn't get its own actions unless:


When a dread of at least 11th level has a shadow twin active, if any creature within 30 ft. of the dread or the shadow twin suffers from the shaken, frightened, or panicked condition at the start of the dread's turn, the shadow twin uses a separate action pool instead of sharing the round's actions with the dread for that round. This means that it and the dread could both make attacks in the same round.




Eh, I still think you're overreacting. Again, they are meant to be more bard than warrior; note the skill points, note the Cha focus. So it's fine for them to be a little weaker in a fight. A solo (PF) bard would have problems dealing with undead too.


I get that, but the bard buffs, which is always useful and never wasted, whereas the dread debuffs, something that can be fully negated.



Arguably, anything non-mindless is subject to their fear so there are a lot of enemies you can affect.

Yes, at least thanks to the aura of fear ability they don't have half their class abilities turned off thanks to a single spell. Still, they have to stay close in order for it to work. The thing is that, right now I don't see any reason not to take the Nightmare constructor alternate class. It gets an Eidolon from level 1 (not the shadow twin for which one needs to wait 11 levels), the Eidolon is always there and always useful (unlike the shadow twin that needs a shaken enemy in order to be able to take its own actions) and the Eidolon has its own hit points. It is better in all respects.



It's not my favorite new class either (those would be the Vitalist and Cryptic) but I still think it can hold its own fine.

Are you going to make a guide for the cryptic like you did for the vitalist?

[Psyren]

The twin doesn't get its own actions unless:

1) It can still be used to flank, threaten at range, scout, double all constant-effect items and buffs etc.

2) Bag of Tricks, hired mule, chinchilla in your pocket etc. As long as it's shaken, you win.



I get that, but the bard buffs, which is always useful and never wasted, whereas the dread debuffs, something that can be fully negated.

Not always useful - most buffs are typed and thus do not stack with others of the same type. When you have buffs of every type already - which you will from WBL - debuffs are the path to greater power differential.

Again, I'm not saying the class is phenomenal by any means - I'm saying it's functional. Pointing out 2-3 creature types that could cause it mild to moderate problems and writing off the whole class because of them is hyperbolic.



The thing is that, right now I don't see any reason not to take the Nightmare constructor alternate class.

Nobody told you not to or that it was a bad choice.



Are you going to make a guide for the cryptic like you did for the vitalist?

I believe Nova was doing one; I didn't want to step on his toes.

[Velikolepni]

1) It can still be used to flank, threaten at range, scout, double all constant-effect items and buffs etc.

Flanking yes, scouting not really, since until level 15 it has to remain within 30 feet of the Dread. Furthermore, since they share hit points, it is almost as dangerous to scout with the twin as to do it directly.



2) Bag of Tricks, hired mule, chinchilla in your pocket etc. As long as it's shaken, you win.

Wouldn't the mule count as an ally and thus not be affected?



Again, I'm not saying the class is phenomenal by any means - I'm saying it's functional. Pointing out 2-3 creature types that could cause it mild to moderate problems and writing off the whole class because of them is hyperbolic.

I am exagerating somewhat of course, but I still think that the class could benefit from a rewrite to make its abilities more flexible and synergistic with each other.



Nobody told you not to or that it was a bad choice.

Of course, it is just that it completely overshadows the original class and I find this sad.

[kabreras]

Wouldn't the mule count as an ally and thus not be affected?



When a dread of at least 11th level has a shadow twin active, if any creature within 30 ft. of the dread or the shadow twin suffers from the shaken, frightened, or panicked condition at the start of the dread's turn, the shadow twin uses a separate action pool instead of sharing the round's actions with the dread for that round. This means that it and the dread could both make attacks in the same round.

AS i can read it it ask for a creature not an enemy

And i like the image of the sadistic man torturing the mind of a poor animal to have it permanently afraid of everything

[Velikolepni]

AS i can read it it ask for a creature not an enemy

And i like the image of the sadistic man torturing the mind of a poor animal to have it permanently afraid of everything

From a role-play perspective, if you have to carry around a constantly traumatized hamster in your pocket so that you can access one of your most important class abilities, it may be time to go on a bridge, look down and reflect upon the choices you have made in life.

[Velikolepni]

It's true that most of their stuff is mind-affecting - they are sort of like anti-bards in that respect - but they are still full manifesters and so can handle threats that many other classes cannot.

By the way, have you taken a look at their power list? It is very inflexible and has very few buffs, no summoning, no direct damage powers. To add insult to injury, even though they get to choose 5 level 6 powers, their power list only contains 4, thus forcing them to use one of the slots to get a lower level power.

[Psyren]

From a role-play perspective, if you have to carry around a constantly traumatized hamster in your pocket so that you can access one of your most important class abilities, it may be time to go on a bridge, look down and reflect upon the choices you have made in life.

Well, while I'm on the bridge reflecting, my shadow gets all its actions, so who cares? :smalltongue:

"From a roleplay perspective," it seems to me (as it did to kabreras) that a Dread would get jollies out of keeping a terrified critter around it, especially when that fear gives it tangible power - which is the raison d'être of the class as a whole.


By the way, have you taken a look at their power list? It is very inflexible and has very few buffs, no summoning, no direct damage powers. To add insult to injury, even though they get to choose 5 level 6 powers, their power list only contains 4, thus forcing them to use one of the slots to get a lower level power.

There are what, two summoning powers in all of psionics? 4? Come on man, this is just bellyaching. Astral Construct is all you need.



Of course, it is just that it completely overshadows the original class and I find this sad.

This is nothing new. Gifted Blade overshadows base Soulknife, Preacher overshadows base Inquisitor, Sacred Servant overshadows base Paladin, Qinggong Monk / Zen Archer overshadow base Monk etc. Dread's hardly the first class ever designed to have a powerful archetype. I haven't read NC in depth but I see no issue here.


By the way, have you taken a look at their power list? It is very inflexible and has very few buffs, no summoning, no direct damage powers. To add insult to injury, even though they get to choose 5 level 6 powers, their power list only contains 4, thus forcing them to use one of the slots to get a lower level power.

I have, and they do in fact get a decent spread. Putting aside the mind-affecting stuff, they get Concealing Amorpha, the Precognition set, Biofeedback, Strength of my Enemy, Gaseous Form, Feat Leech, Schism, True Seeing, Plane Shift, Personal Mind Blank, Form of Doom, and freaking Time Stop. Let's see a Bard do all that. They can then go get Astral Construct, a direct damage power, Inertial Armor, even Polymorph if they want more combat ability. And it's a good skillmonkey/decent face on top of all that.

The class is fine. Again, not the strongest, but not the weakest either. I put it at low T3/high T4.