Incarnate Awakened Tree Construct

[Ruethgar]

So awakening a tree gives it the same traits as an animated object except that it gains the plant type, not that is loses the construct type, it just gains plant. When you then add the Incarnate Construct template (assuming you wood shaped it into a humanoid before awakening) it changes the type to humanoid or giant. Does this alter the plant type as well as construct? And considering plants are minutely animate(think of flowers turning to the sun), would the flesh be altered by the incarnate construct since it isn't actually "inanimate
material"?

[Chilingsworth]

Umm, a creature can only have a single type. If it gains the plant type, it loses the construct type.

[Ruethgar]

Umm, a creature can only have a single type. If it gains the plant type, it loses the construct type.

I can't find where it says that in the rules.

[Last Laugh]

I can't find where it says that in the rules.

Perhaps one of the effects has "becomes the X type"

[mattie_p]

OK, a tree is normally a special kind of object, as it is not a creature. Only creatures have types.


creature (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_creature&alpha=C)
A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms "creature" and "character" are sometimes used interchangeably.

A tree is living, but it is not a creature:


Nonabilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities)
Wisdom
Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

Charisma
Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

TL:DR; Trees are living objects with special rules.

Awaken tells you it is similar to an animated object, but the type is plant instead of construct.

As far as changing type, refer to the SRD for improving monsters by adding a template:


Size and Type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeandType)
Templates often change a creature’s type, and may change the creature’s size.

If a template changes the base creature’s type, the creature also acquires the augmented subtype unless the template description indicates otherwise. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type.

Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) is not technically a template though, it merely creates an animated tree of type plant that otherwise has the characteristics of a construct. The spell will tell you what to do. But it never had the construct type to begin with, the particular creature was created via the spell with the plant type.

[Cog]

I can't find where it says that in the rules.
It might not be explicitly stated anywhere, but it's a matter of the definition of the word 'type' and also of how creature types interact with the rules. (A Construct Plant would simultaneously use d10 and d8s for HD and would have both a bad Fort save and a good Fort save, for example.)

[Ruethgar]

Awaken tells you it is similar to an animated object, but the type is plant instead of construct.

"An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6."

Gaining something does not equate to the loss of something else. It does not say it gains the plant type instead of the construct type, just that it gains the plant type.

Edit @ Cog: Considering that it says it has characteristics as an animated object I would be leaning toward considering plant as an augmentation of the construct type meaning the construct stats would take precedence.

[mattie_p]

Gaining something does not equate to the loss of something else. It does not say it gains the plant type instead of the construct type, just that it gains the plant type.

But it was never a construct to begin with. I edited above while you were posting for clarification of my point. It gains a type where it had no type at all before. It was not a creature and never was until it awakened.

[Grinner]

Are we really discussing whether a tree is constructed object or a plant? :smallconfused:

Geez. D&D sure is complicated.

[jindra34]

Are we really discussing whether a tree is constructed object or a plant? :smallconfused:

Geez. D&D sure is complicated.

Not complicated. Badly written to the point where mis-interpretation is common.

[Ruethgar]

Found it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060711a) "Every creature has one -- and only one -- type." even though it is not in any of my books, 3e or 3.5. It keeps the construct traits though, even if it was never a construct, weird. Any way to reduce to LA of a plant then?

[lunar2]

actually the awaken spell doesn't say it gains the plant type. an awakened plant is a construct.

edit: huh. i was wrong. it does gain the plant type, but it still has no Con score.

[mattie_p]

Any way to reduce to LA of a plant then?

Incidentally, what LA of a plant?

From awaken? It is not a template, and grants no LA. Since the base thing is not a creature, it has no LA score (no, I don't mean 0, I mean "-"), and thus is ineligible for PCs. Ask your DM to see what happens, as the rules are silent.

[Ruethgar]

Savage Species: +1 for plant type, +1 for construct traits, +1 for hardness, +1 for natural armor. It may be argued that since construct and plant overlap so much that you only take the +1 from construct but still easily LA +3.

Also, might it be possible to grow a still living tree into the form of a construct and simultaneously animate and incarnate the construct while you awaken the tree?

[Toy Killer]

Perhaps I'm missing something here... But, Why not just use animate object on the tree (seeing as how it is an object until animated), and then use the incarnate construct template after wards?

[Palanan]

I'm with Grinner on this one. It's ridiculous that the rules somehow consider trees not to be living creatures.

For the record, trees can perceive their environment in several ways: they can sense gravity, light, and moisture, and they can also respond to chemical signals from other trees.

This last point also means that trees are capable of detecting the difference between themselves and other things, certainly on a chemical level. Many trees also have mycorrhizal symbionts, which are fungal filaments which are microscopically intertwined with the trees' fine roots. There are almost certainly species-specific associations, meaning certain trees partner with certain mycorrhizae--not just self and non-self, but discriminating between different types of non-self.

So trees qualify on both points: sensing their environment in any fashion, and discriminating between self and non-self.



Apart from the common-sense, forehead-smiting fact that trees are plants.

:smallwink:

.

[Ruethgar]

Would have to wood shape, then animate, then incarnate, but my thoughts were having two sentient beings inhabiting the same body, both the awakened tree and the construct. Would be... interesting to role play. Could use awaken construct instead of incarnate, but I was kind of wondering what spell effects would take precedence. For example would the creature be a plant augmented humanoid or would incarnate override awaken entirely making it a straight humanoid?

Edit @ Palanan: Yeah that kind of irked me when I was reading the WotC definition of a creature. Plants don't have great senses, but they do have them and some studies even show minute memory of harmful individuals so yay int.

[mattie_p]

Savage Species: +1 for plant type, +1 for construct traits, +1 for hardness, +1 for natural armor. It may be argued that since construct and plant overlap so much that you only take the +1 from construct but still easily LA +3.

Also, might it be possible to grow a still living tree into the form of a construct and simultaneously animate and incarnate the construct while you awaken the tree?

Where to begin... Savage Species is 3.0 material (granted late 3.0), so requires "minor adjustments" to be used with 3.5 IAW the update rules. However, you're missing the critical point here. On page 10 of Savage Species is a very important rule.


Players should never try to determine level adjustment on their own. The DM should assign level adjustment to monster characters, carefully considering what belongs in his or her game and the impact of monster special abilities.

Then on page 22-23, it specifically addresses awakened characters. "DMs may allow awakened animal or plant characters," meaning they are not automatically allowed. They are in the "difficult" monster section. Other factors to consider for LA purposes might include size and reach (+2 LA, p12 SS).


Perhaps I'm missing something here... But, Why not just use animate object on the tree (seeing as how it is an object until animated), and then use the incarnate construct template after wards?

Animate Object: Duration: 1 round/level. I suspect that might have something to do with it.:smallwink:


Would have to wood shape, then animate, then incarnate, but my thoughts were having two sentient beings inhabiting the same body, both the awakened tree and the construct. Would be... interesting to role play. Could use awaken construct instead of incarnate, but I was kind of wondering what spell effects would take precedence. For example would the creature be a plant augmented humanoid or would incarnate override awaken entirely making it a straight humanoid?

Edit @ Palanan: Yeah that kind of irked me when I was reading the WotC definition of a creature. Plants don't have great senses, but they do have them and some studies even show minute memory of harmful individuals so yay int.

The awakened tree is not and never was a construct. So you cannot cast awaken construct on it, as the plant is not a valid target of the spell. Likewise, you can animate the tree, even permanency it, then cast awaken construct on it, but then it has type: construct, and is no longer a valid target for awaken, because it is not an "animal or tree."

[Ruethgar]

The awakened tree is not and never was a construct. So you cannot cast awaken construct on it, as the plant is not a valid target of the spell. Likewise, you can animate the tree, even permanency it, then cast awaken construct on it, but then it has type: construct, and is no longer a valid target for awaken, because it is not an "animal or tree."

Cast obedient growth on the tree to make it grow into a non-magical construct not yet animated and thus still an object requiring just one piece more to be animate. Make the last piece and put two arrows in it such that they would stab into the construct tree to be. Use the Quintessential Wizard metamagic feat Imbue Weapon to give one arrow a single charge of the Incarnate Construct spell and give the other arrow Awaken. Put the piece into place making the tree a construct the same moment it gets hit by both the Incarnate construct and Awaken spells.

[TuggyNE]

Cast obedient growth on the tree to make it grow into a non-magical construct not yet animated and thus still an object requiring just one piece more to be animate. Make the last piece and put two arrows in it such that they would stab into the construct tree to be. Use the Quintessential Wizard metamagic feat Imbue Weapon to give one arrow a single charge of the Incarnate Construct spell and give the other arrow Awaken. Put the piece into place making the tree a construct the same moment it gets hit by both the Incarnate construct and Awaken spells.

That's ingenious, but relies on an implementation detail of the multiverse; namely, you're assuming magic doesn't bother to lock or otherwise prevent thread racing. Given that that's a known type of bug, I'd expect a competent DM to shoot it down on the grounds that the multiverse works better than that.

[NotScaryBats]

But what does this accomplish that a wooden warforged does not?

[mattie_p]

Cast obedient growth on the tree to make it grow into a non-magical construct not yet animated and thus still an object requiring just one piece more to be animate. Make the last piece and put two arrows in it such that they would stab into the construct tree to be. Use the Quintessential Wizard metamagic feat Imbue Weapon to give one arrow a single charge of the Incarnate Construct spell and give the other arrow Awaken. Put the piece into place making the tree a construct the same moment it gets hit by both the Incarnate construct and Awaken spells.

Aside from the fact you are referencing spells and feats from outside of 3.5 (d20 system and still compatible, but not part of the 3.5 ruleset) there is no mechanic for simultaneous actions.

[Ruethgar]

But what does this accomplish that a wooden warforged does not?

Multiple personality disorder, lol awakened tree and construct in the same body. Mostly I wanted a low/no LA animated tree with some racial HD for a few special abilities I found. Animated tree seemed the best route. I read a lengthy post about it that got me thinking about constructs made of living trees and about the poor wording of the awaken spell potentially allowing incarnate construct to be applied.

Whether or not I implement the idea into a character, I did want to know if there were any rules for simultaneous conflicting spells such as the incarnate/awaken combo above. It could also be done by a multi-armed super spellcaster with multi-tasking if you wanted to go by official publication only.

[mattie_p]

Whether or not I implement the idea into a character, I did want to know if there were any rules for simultaneous conflicting spells such as the incarnate/awaken combo above.

No, there are no such rules. Actions are always taken sequentially, one after another. Even when interrupted, such as in an Attack of Opportunity or a readied action, the interruption takes place first, before the action that caused or provoked the interruption.


It could also be done by a multi-armed super spellcaster with multi-tasking if you wanted to go by official publication only.

How? Can you cite a rule or example where multiple spells are resolved simultaneously? I am unaware of such.

[Ruethgar]

The Multitasking and Multivoice feats in Savage Species both allow simultaneous spellcasting but give no particularly special rules for doing so. Also a Spell Weaver from Monster Manual II has the extraordinary ability to cast multiple spells simultaneously.

[mattie_p]

The Multitasking and Multivoice feats in Savage Species both allow simultaneous spellcasting but give no particularly special rules for doing so. Also a Spell Weaver from Monster Manual II has the extraordinary ability to cast multiple spells simultaneously.

All of those sources are 3.0, reference the rule I already quoted regarding minor adjustments. Multivoice makes no reference to simultaneously casting spells, multi tasking makes the only such rule. I don't have MM2, but check the 3.5 updates on the wizards website.

[Ruethgar]

You are assuming 3.5 as the one and only rule set to abide by. This could easily fall to just a 3.0 game making the minor alteration rule invalid.

Also, from multivoice:

If your concentration is interrupted during this simultaneous casting or spell-like ability use, whether by taking damage or by some other means, a Concentration check is required for each spell or spell-like ability. Failing either Concentration check negates both spells or spelllike abilities.

And the spell weaving ability.

Spell Weaving (Ex): These monsters are infamous for their ability to cast more than one spell at a time. Casting a spell occupies a number of the spell weaver’s arms equal to the spell’s level (maximum 6th). A spell weaver can cast more than one spell simultaneously, as long as the sum of the spell levels is six or less. It could, for example, cast one 6th-level spell, one 4th-level and one 2ndlevel spell, one 3rd-level and three 1st-level spells, six 1stlevel spells, or any combination of spells whose levels add up to six or less. (A single 0-level spell occupies one arm.)

I looked through the errata and found some skill alterations to the spell weaver but I could find nothing officially altering the Spell Weaving ability.

[Crake]

Savage Species: +1 for plant type, +1 for construct traits

The fact that it's a plant means it doesn't get construct traits. Construct traits are abilities and immunities that constructs get. It would instead get plant traits.

[Ruethgar]

The fact that it's a plant means it doesn't get construct traits. Construct traits are abilities and immunities that constructs get. It would instead get plant traits.

Animated objects have listed as a special quality that they get the construct traits. Seeing as how awaken only changes the type and mental scores, all other facets of the animated object remain in effect including the special quality of construct traits. They are of course also altered for having the plant type, though they never get the plant traits special quality.