Which DMG Prestige Classes are worth branching into?

[aabicus]

I just want to know which of the prestige classes are good and which are underpowered. Is there anywhere online that reviews all of them, maybe like a tier list?

[mattie_p]

There is indeed. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0)

[Morcleon]

You may want to take a look at this lovely link (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0).

Just as a tip, most things can be found on google with "d&d [thing you're looking for]". It works wonders. :smallwink:

EDIT: Aaaaand ninja'd. :smalltongue:

[aabicus]

Danke! :D

5Danke

[aabicus]

Wow, according to your link the DMG PrC's are for the most part really bad. Only three make the second-best tier (Blackguard, Loremaster, Thaumaturgist) and the rest are all lukewarm or horrible, with special mention to the Arcane Archer.

[Morcleon]

Wow, according to your link the DMG PrC's are for the most part really bad. Only three make the second-best tier (Blackguard, Loremaster, Thaumaturgist) and the rest are all lukewarm or horrible, with special mention to the Arcane Archer.

Yep. Most of the DMG PrCs are that bad. :smallwink:

It's because of this:


...As R&D pushes the boundaries of the game, we learn that some things we thought were risky or potentially broken aren't. Other times, we learn things that look fine don't actually work in play...

[Story]

Well you have to take it with a grain of salt because Prcs are heavily build dependent. Archmage for example, is amazing in certain builds, and it's still decent even for more generic wizards.

[mattie_p]

Well, yes, out of all the prestige classes written for 3.5, odds are that very few were going to appear near the top.

[Story]

Just as a tip, most things can be found on google with "d&d [thing you're looking for]". It works wonders. :smallwink:

Be careful not to end up on D&D Wiki though.


Wow, according to your link the DMG PrC's are for the most part really bad. Only three make the second-best tier (Blackguard, Loremaster, Thaumaturgist) and the rest are all lukewarm or horrible, with special mention to the Arcane Archer.

Horizon Walker sees use in optimized Core only builds. Red Wizard is broken, though not quite Incantrix or Dweomercheater tier. Mystic Theurge is decent if combined with tricks like Ur Preist.

[Morcleon]

Be careful not to end up on D&D Wiki though.

Indeed. I was referring more to forum-based resources though (and D&D Tools). :smallsmile:


Horizon Walker sees use in optimized Core only builds. Red Wizard is broken, though not quite Incantrix or Dweomercheater tier. Mystic Theurgeif combined with tricks like Ur Preist.

Red Wizard gets better with reserve feats, though still not as good as those two. :smallamused:

[Daftendirekt]

Yeah, I'm surprised Red Wizard is listed as +0. I was expecting +2, with the ridiculosity Circle Magic can achieve.

[nedz]

I'm surprised that Dwarven Defender is rated as high as 0.

What this system doesn't take into account is the likely final tier of the build.
A character based upon a Marvellous melee PrC is unlikely to break the game quite as much as a character based upon a Mediocre casterly PrC.

[Felyndiira]

Wow, according to your link the DMG PrC's are for the most part really bad. Only three make the second-best tier (Blackguard, Loremaster, Thaumaturgist) and the rest are all lukewarm or horrible, with special mention to the Arcane Archer.

It's also important to keep in mind what the best 'tier' represents - prestige classes that literally increase the base class by a tier or so. Included in there are monstrosities like Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper; and few classes can reach them in the amount of sheer versatility and power they add. A lot of the commonly-seen 'good' prestige classes, like Church Inquisitor, is only +1.

A caster class that is +1 or +0 is not bad at all. For instance, Archmage is an excellent PrC that adds a lot of tricks to the wizard, and is very often used in optimization builds. Yet, it's considered +0 because the prestige class itself is intended as a dip rather than 'take all of the features', and because the wizard is strong enough that it takes classes like Incantatrix to increase its tier by a noticeable amount.

Of course, the -1 and -2 classes still qualify as 'bad' for anyone that isn't cheesing entry requirements :smallsmile:.

[Answerer]

Yeah, I can't say I'm agreeing with a lot of these rankings. Dwarven Defender is awful. Archmage is quite nice. And so on.

Though the calculus does change whether one is Core-only or not. Core-only, a Fighter simply runs out of useful feats, which may justify Dwarven Defender. Core-only, one cannot take Master Specialist, which is "get into Archmage easy, the class," among other things.

[mattie_p]

Yeah, I can't say I'm agreeing with a lot of these rankings. Dwarven Defender is awful. Archmage is quite nice. And so on.

Though the calculus does change whether one is Core-only or not. Core-only, a Fighter simply runs out of useful feats, which may justify Dwarven Defender. Core-only, one cannot take Master Specialist, which is "get into Archmage easy, the class," among other things.

Maybe time to take another stab at this? I can't run it, but I'll contribute some of the feedback.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Yeah, I can't say I'm agreeing with a lot of these rankings. Dwarven Defender is awful. Archmage is quite nice. And so on.

The disparity could be from Dwarven Defender being looked at as a dip for a straight fighter, 1 Defensive Stance per day is a interesting and potentially powerful substitute for a feat. The prereqs are much too high, but some build could have most of them for good reasons. While Archmage was only judged as a take all 10 levels PrC.

There were a few odd judgements. I remember arguing with several people who wanted to list PrC Paladin as a +1 for the power of it's 1 level dip to add Paladin's unique spells to Clericzilla's list. While I argued it's base listing should either be -1,-2 as a 10 level PrC for Cleric or a +2 for it's "obvious/intended" entry some mix of Cleric and Fighter that would have continued to Multiclass the two without a good hybrid Prestige class with Pally flavor.

[Gotterdammerung]

I find that the DMG prestige classes are not as out of control as some of the crazy effecient prestige classes out there. But they are also not as inherently bad as some of the bad prestige classes out there. It is worth it to know the core prestiges and have an intimate knowledge of what they do. It is a small list and easy to become familiar with. And when they work in a build, they work very well.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, I'm surprised Red Wizard is listed as +0. I was expecting +2, with the ridiculosity Circle Magic can achieve.

I think that's because a Wizard is already T1, and you cannot become a Red Wizard without being a Wizard. Red Wizards are crazy, but they're not StP Erudites or Pun-Puns, the signatures of T0 and T-1 respectively.

[Aliek]

I believe they aren't literally up 2 tiers. Sublime Chord is an "Up Two" PrC, but then, a bard/sublime chord isn't a tier 1 either. He's still just a sorcerer with a couple extra gimmicks, but no access to arcane fusion IIRC.

[Greenish]

I think that's because a Wizard is already T1, and you cannot become a Red Wizard without being a Wizard. Red Wizards are crazy, but they're not StP Erudites or Pun-Puns, the signatures of T0 and T-1 respectively.Well, the tier of the base class doesn't really matter, since the PrC rankings only rate the PrC against staying with the entry class, so basically any full casting PrC that's not too painful to enter would be +1 or +2 to wizard as long as it had features better than a bonus feat every five levels or so.

[Gwendol]

Shadowdancer isn't a complete waste, and neither are the theurge classes.

[mattie_p]

Prestige classes (and base classes, for that matter) have different values depending on whether they are dips or continuous. A really good PrC tier rating would evaluate the class on:

* Entry Level (with half credit for early entry tricks)

* Tax to Enter (PA for a melee class is not a tax, for example)

* Natural exit level for dips (Spellsword 1, etc)

* Value for all levels (what do the abilities of each level give you above "natural" entry classes)

There are corner cases (Death Delver from HoH is not a good class for most classes, but as a 1-level dip for a DMM cleric it is FANTASTIC). Those should be addressed in individual class handbooks rather than the tier system.

[Piggy Knowles]

Here are my personal takes on the various DMG prestige classes...

Arcane Archer
PROS:
Theoretically useful in some niche builds as a two-level dip for Imbue Arrow. In a low-magic game it's not terrible, but there are better options.

CONS:
It suffers as a dip because of its entry requirements (especially the elf bit). It requires casting but doesn't progress casting on its own. Most of its abilities don't stack with magic weapons or the Greater Magic Weapon spell.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
When the bulk of your class features can be duplicated by a third level spell, you've got some problems.

Arcane Trickster
PROS:
10/10 casting and full sneak attack progression. Decent skills. Ranged legerdemain and impromptu sneak attack both have solid uses.

CONS:
Tough qualifications - the skills in particular can be troublesome. Hard to qualify for without losing caster levels (Assassin's Stance does the trick late game, though.)

FINAL THOUGHTS:
Outclassed by Unseen Seer, which is easier to qualify for and trades a little bit of sneak attack for class features that overall are much more useful, but still a solid PrC.

Archmage
PROS:
5/5 spellcasting. Easily fits in at the end of most wizard builds. Some powerful class features, including Mastery of Shaping, Arcane Reach and Mastery of Elements.

CONS:
High Arcana costs spell slots to take. Much of what High Arcana does can be accomplished via feats, although not quite as well.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
Still a good finisher to builds, and Complete Mage's Master Specialist makes it insanely easy to qualify for. Its main problem is that it has a lot of very good wizard PrCs to compete with, but it's pretty handy overall.

Assassin
PROS:
Full sneak attack, poison use, decent spells that are well supported outside of core, Supernatural HiPS, good skills.

CON:
Death attack is awkward and difficult to use. Evil alignment is annoying.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
In my opinion, this is up there with Chameleon and Uncanny Trickster as one of the top PrC choices for rogues. You lose very little, and you gain a number of solid benefits and one major benefit - Int-based spellcasting. If it weren't for the evil requirement, it would be a staple on most builds.

Blackguard
PROS:
Interesting "buyback" mechanics. Full paladinish casting in ten levels. Divine grace is still one of the best save-boosters around. Aura of despair is still one of the best passive debuffs around. Fiendish servant is surprisingly good, and is based off of character level rather than Blackguard level.

CONS:
Tough pre-requisites that more or less lock you in to a single archtype. Casting comes in off a weak list, and because it isn't technically paladin casting, it doesn't get much support. Front-loaded, with very little reason to take more than three levels.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
Not terrible as a dip for aura of despair in a save-debuffing build. Some interesting things you can do with the buyback mechanics (Ex-Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 is actually not terrible, giving you 4th-level spells and full BAB at ECL 11), but overall this PrC is all over the place and only ever sees use in niche builds.

Dragon Disciple
PROS:
Decent stat boosts throughout your progression. Natural attacks and flight are nice, as is blindsense.

CONS:
Requires spontaneous arcane casting to enter but doesn't really advance it. Primarily a melee class, but the knowledge ranks make it difficult for melee classes to qualify. Dragon apotheosis is weird and paradoxical.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
In core-only this sees a lot more use, but it rarely comes up outside of that. Bonus spells are actually handy ways to pick up more spells on "maxed out" progressions from classes like Ur-Priest, Nar Demonbinder and Sublime Chord, but other than that there are almost always better choices.

Duelist
PROS:
Canny defense gives Int to AC, which can come in handy. Improved Reaction gives a pretty decent initiative boost. If you're fighting defensively, Elaborate Parry can give a +10 dodge bonus to AC.

CONS:
Biggest problem is that this locks you into a very subpar fighting style. Fighting defensively doesn't work - enemies can just ignore you, or find other ways to attack. Has all of the bad parts of fighting one-handed (low damage, restricted weapon choices) and none of the good (can't use a shield, hold a wand, etc., in the off hand). Crappy pre-reqs. Canny defense only works when unarmored, and it's pretty easy to get armor bonuses that exceed whatever it would offer you.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
Unless you're trying for a trick build focused on the highest possible AC (with no thoughts of offense), the Duelist makes you actively worse at fighting. Even if you are, there are way better options.

Dwarven Defender
PROS:
Defensive stance is like a defensive rage - boosts to Strength, Con, saves and AC. Uncanny dodge is always handy. Damage reduction also doesn't hurt. The AC bonus is actually pretty solid, since it stacks with most things and doesn't require that you forego armor or anything.

CONS:
Defensive stance seems cool - except that enemies can briskly walk around you as you're locked in place. Terrible, terrible pre-reqs, including an alignment based one (gah I hate those) and three useless feats.

SUMMARY:
In a core-only game, you could take this on a defensive build and just only go into your stance if you happen to be fighting in a tunnel I guess? This PrC is a trap - it seems like it offers a lot of cool benefits, but in practice it really just doesn't work.

Eldritch Knight
PROS:
9/10 casting and full BAB.

CONS:
Kind of boring.

SUMMARY:
This was a gish staple for a long time. Then Complete Mage came out, and Abjurant Champion took a tremendous dump on any vestige of usefulness EK had. You'll see it filling in the dead levels on a gish build every now and then, but it has become rare...

Heirophant
PROS:
Easy qualification. Offers some unique abilities, including the ability to transfer wild shape or turning to others. Can be used to gain +10 CL in five levels.

CONS:
Does... not... progress... casting. Why? If this is the divine version of archmage... gah!

FINAL THOUGHTS:
Except in very specific builds (mainly Ur-Priests, Divine Crusaders and builds focused solely on getting as high a CL as possible), this build will make you actively worse at casting.

Horizon Walker
PROS:
A variety of solid skill boosts. Immunity to fatigue. Darkvision. Higher levels give you DimDoor almost at will, tremorsense and immunity to aligned effects - no Blasphemy auto-kills for you!

CONS:
Difficult for anyone but a ranger to qualify for. Skill bonuses are all competence, which means they don't stack with most items. Requires a serious investment to get its more decent effects.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
Not terrible in core - skill bonuses are harder to come by, barbarians like the immunity to fatigue, and dimension door is handy. Outside of core, a single feat gives you the main draw of the class.

Loremaster
PROS:
10/10 casting. Gives UMD as a class skill, letting casters expand their spell list. Secrets aren't bad - bonus low level spells, a feat to make up for the required Skill Focus, some save boosters. Free Identify/Legend Lore/Analyze Dweomer.

CONS:
Requirements are pretty annoying and specific. Secrets are pretty underwhelming for the level you get them.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
A filler class. It gives you most of what straight wizard levels would give you, but slightly better. Super common in core, still sees some use outside of it.

Mystic Theurge
PROS:
Progresses both arcane and divine classes.

CONS:
Unless you cheese in early qualification or use bootstrapped classes like Ur-Priest or Sublime Chord, a mystic theurge is pretty much always going to be worse off than a straight caster.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
It's both over-rated and indispensable. Most theurge builds are kind of sucky, because a few high level spells is more valuable than more low level spells. But for the builds that use it well, it's more or less mandatory.

Red Wizard
PROS:
10/10 casting and bonus feats like a regular wizard, so all you really give up is your familiar progression. Circle magic can do absolutely INSANE things. Spell power is a handy little CL boost.

CONS:
Regional and alignment-based requirements. Must give up an additional school.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
Absolutely insane, and should probably not be allowed. This is one of the "big four" wizard prestige classes - Red Wizard, Incantatrix, Tainted Scholar and Anima Mage - that significantly ramp up the power of a base wizard.

Shadowdancer
PROS:
Supernatural HiPS, about as good as the ability gets. Good skills. Some solid defensive abilities in Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Defensive Roll and Slippery Mind. Incorporeal buddies to pal around with. Limited short-range teleportation.

CONS:
Solely defensive abilities makes it hard for you to actually do anything other than slink around. The feat pre-reqs are pretty bad. Shadow jump's daily limit is too low to be used much.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
People give this class more guff than it deserves - you can still do OK with a shadowdancer, especially in core. But 10 levels with no offense to speak of is rough on most builds, and you can duplicate most of what it does with other classes, feats and items that don't require such a major investment.

Thaumaturgist
PROS:
5/5 casting. Easy requirements. A free cohort. A free contingent spell (especially nice as that's hard to come by for divine casters). Solid boosts to summoning in general.

CONS:
Most summon-focused builds will want Augment Summoning earlier than 9th-level, which is when you get it here, and the class doesn't let you select a new feat if you already know it.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
Quite good, and under-rated. The cohort and contingent summoning are the real gems here, and are worthwhile even in a build not solely focused on summoning.

[Draz74]

From strongest to weakest, I'd say the classes go:


Red Wizard (game-breaking)
Archmage (a no-brainer in Core-only)
Loremaster (good, but not great as full casting PrCs go)
Thaumaturgist (kinda boring, but at least it's a full caster)
Horizon Walker (a superb option for Core-only melee)
Assassin (not a powerhouse, but rarely useless)
Arcane Trickster (the entry requirements are steep, but it's just got a lot of powerful features)
Eldritch Knight (more of a slightly-nerfed caster than a true gish)
Mystic Theurge (a trap, without specific early-entry or fast-casting classes)
Dragon Disciple (a mediocre Gish class in Core; there are some specific non-Core builds that make it actually shine)
Blackguard (it has powerful features, but somehow they never manage to coalesce into a cohesive playstyle)
Shadowdancer (mostly sadly limited features other than HiPS)
Arcane Archer (mostly made obsolete by Greater Magic Weapon)
Heirophant (I still can't believe, after all these years, that this doesn't advance casting!)
Dwarven Defender (my class feature is being immobile!)
Duelist (somehow manages to have weaker features than Dwarven Defender)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Nearly EVERY one of those tier ranking is completely wrong, don't go by that. Now, most DMG PrC's *are* bad. But that guide managed to completely mess up which ones are good and bad.

Arcane Archer: This class is bad and should feel bad. You can pull off some amusing abuses w/ a 2 level dip for Imbue Arrow. Here's a hint: by RAW, any spell imbued in the arrow takes a standard to cast, regardless of what the spell says. Guards and Wards is finally practical to use! :smallsmile:
Other than that trick, avoid AA.

Arcane Trickster: It's weaker than Wizard but much stronger than Rogue. It fullfills its intended purpose quite well, the path getting to it is just painful.

Archmage: In a core only game, this is far far FAR better than staying Wiz or Sorc. Absolutely take it for all 5 levels or until you run out of abilities you want to grab. Mastery of Shaping, Spell Power, and Spell-like ability (take it on level 9's like Shapechange or Time Stop) are good for most anyone; the one to change energy types on the fly is good for a blaster (yeah, I know they suck, some people still want to play one); Arcane Fire is actually nice for an Arcane Trickster (who won't be able to get it for a *long* time, though) but horrible for anyone else.

Assassin: Slightly better than core rogue, but not a huge improvement. The spell selection is surprisingly bad, not only do you not get anything early, you actually get some things late despite being a 4-level caster.

Blackguard: The requirements suck, the class itself is slightly better than most mundane classes. Don't build a fallen paladin to enter, that's a deal for suckers.

Dragon Disciple: Decent as a dip of up to 4-6 levels for martial types. Barely an improvement over just dipping various base classes for class features, though.

Duelist: It sucks harder than my vacuum cleaner. I did see someone once make a decent core-only duelist build that completely ignored half of the class features and just fought with a giant honkin' sword, though.

Dwarven Defender: Aww, this forum doesn't have a rolling smiley to denote ROFL... Don't take this. Ever.

Eldritch Knight: If you want to be a "gish", this class does its job adequately. Like AT, in between caster and the mundane class it melds together in power. I think EK is slightly less painful to enter and a bit more viable.

Heirophant: For a cleric, dropping some levels in here is heavily crippling, but you can get some cool toys at least. For a druid, this class is abominable. You're giving up more from base class and worse/fewer options to choose from. I would avoid it, but a cleric can take the hit in power and still be good. Never take more than a few levels if you ever want to see 9th level spells.

Horizon Walker: The only non-casting PrC in core worth taking for more than a few levels, taking it all the way to 10 is actually quite viable, and you absolutely want at least 6 (for the Dim Door). If you don't want to be a spellcaster, it's really hard to justify *not* taking this class.

Lore Master: Look, it may not be sexy, but it's still slightly stronger than the base Wizard class, and that's saying a LOT! You can totally build a Wiz / Lore Master / Archmage all on the same character, too.

Mystic Theurge: Drop in power for a crapton of versatility. I think this PrC gets a bad rep, it's weaker than straight caster, but it's still very potent and useful to have access to arcane and divine magic.

Red Wizard: Circle Magic is broken. That is all.

Shadowdancer: This is an awesome 1-2 level dip for any sneaky or high dex type martial character. I would stop at 2 levels, though, the rest is utter garbage. And the hyper-weak shadow companion is just an xp robbery waiting to happen.

Thaumaturgist: If your cleric's main goal in life is to be a Big Stupid Fighter, this class is slightly bad for you, but still worth taking. If you care more about casting than melee, this class is hands-down better than Cleric 20!

EDIT: I think the order of ranking by Draz74 above me is quite accurate and a good quick reference guideline.

[Piggy Knowles]

Assassin: Slightly better than core rogue, but not a huge improvement. The spell selection is surprisingly bad, not only do you not get anything early, you actually get some things late despite being a 4-level caster.

Overall I agree with you, except about this bit. Even in core, the assassin spell list is pretty handy for a rogue - Alter Self alone bumps them up a good bit, as does the invisibility line. And the fourth level spells are great: Modify Memory, Glibness, Freedom of Movement, DimDoor, etc.

Outside of core, assassin is probably tied with ranger as the single best-supported casting class that isn't one of the "big three" (wizard/druid/cleric). They get a ton of fantastic spells, including most of the cool archery spells from Champions of Ruin, a ton of nasty stuff in BoVD, and a lot of swift action options.

The main draw is that qualification is ridiculously easy - if you've got an evil alignment, you more or less WILL qualify by level 5. So then you trade 2 SP/level for Int-based spontaneous spellcasting, poison use, and supernatural HiPS. That's a pretty good trade, IMO.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's not just the skill points are less. The class skills are thinner, making it cost 2x skill points to continue maxing skills the party might expect of you. Also, you're giving up on the rogue special abilities, several of which are quite nice.

The spell list definitely gets better at the higher levels, but the lower level ones are pretty slim pickings, and you won't have 4th level spells till 7 levels into the class.

I also don't see why you would take Assassin over Arcane Trickster.... You get slightly better sneak attack and the questionably useful death attack, poison use is generally worthless for a PC (poison is so expensive)... The Hide in Plain Sight is very nice, but also comes very late in the class.

I think it is slightly better than Rogue in core, but definitely not a no-brainer pick like Archmage is.

[limejuicepowder]

I also don't see why you would take Assassin over Arcane Trickster.... You get slightly better sneak attack and the questionably useful death attack, poison use is generally worthless for a PC (poison is so expensive)... The Hide in Plain Sight is very nice, but also comes very late in the class.

If you go the arcane trickster route, you will be playing a wizard who is also a rogue. The assassin is a rogue who is also a wizard. At that point, you minds well ask why play anything but a wizard/cleric/druid, since they do everything better.

Assassins have virtually non-existent requirements, as opposed to a trickster who has some of the worst. Better sneak attack means better melee, and spontaneous casting makes for a simpler class (and you don't have to think about spellbooks). By virtue of it not having full casting it is a weaker class, but assassin is much more approachable and user-friendly.

The spells it gets in core are very good, even if there aren't a lot of them. They will easily shore up the main weaknesses of a mundane class at higher level without making the class all about the casting. Outside of core, the spell list expands greatly and is actually very respectable.

I think you're selling the assassin a little short.

[Story]

If you want to be a Rouge Wizard and PHBII is available, just go Beguiler.

[Rubik]

If you want to be a Rouge Wizard and PHBII is available, just go Beguiler Red Wizard.Fixed that for you.

[Story]

Of course if you actually want to be a Red Mage, Factorum comes closest.

[TuggyNE]

Of course if you actually want to be a Red Mage, Factorum comes closest.

Not to dogpile or anything, but… two T's, no R in Factotum.

[Story]

And this is why I always failed miserably in spelling bees.