contradiction in Tarquins actions?

[Forikroder]

so ive been thinking about Tarquins plans for the Continent and more specifically how he plans to go about it

basically Tarquin is using his party to make it seem like the 6 of them are nothing more then powerful mercenaries offering there services to different counrtys while subtly influencing the country and others so as to slowly create 3 large countrys that they can rule safely

the plan is basically all about doing it safely there doing it in a very slow way so as to not attract attention, making it seem as natural as possible while hiding there involvement with each other as much as possible

there end goal is to have each country control one third of the desert so they can pretend to have a mexican stand off so that noone outside the desert realises that the entire desert is controlled by one party

then comes the contradiction, Tarquin and Malack are currently trying to capture a WMD, presumably so they can cut a decade off there plan and this seems against the original plan

Tarquin seems certain that if they brought the 3 countries into one uber one then its possible the elves or something will then come attack him so why is he trying to get the gate? all that would do is make him the enemy of Team Evil, he has no idea what resources Team Evil for all he knows theyd be strong enough to completely ruin his plan

it seems like hes taking a massive risk to get the gate (pissing of alot of people in doing so) and even assuming he manages to get control of the gate and use it to finish the plan much sooner that only makes the plan less sustainable, outside forces are even more likely to invade the Desert in order to capture the super weapon used, or to prevent the super weapon from being used

it seems odd that such a meticulously safe planner like Tarquin is taking such a huge risk especially since completing the plan early doesnt seem that big a deal, the 6 of them are already living the life of luxury and there plan is almost guranteed to suceed at this point

[Gift Jeraff]

He's probably making sure no one else can get.

Also, Tarquin is an idiot.

[SowZ]

I believe Tarquin mostly just doesn't want the power of the Gate falling into someone else's hands. It is very possible that could Tarquin destroy any chances of anyone, (including himself,) ever controlling the gates, he would. I would not be the least bit surprised if Tarquin did destroy the Gate.


He's probably making sure no one else can get.

Also, Tarquin is an idiot.

How do you figure?

[Forikroder]

I believe Tarquin mostly just doesn't want the power of the Gate falling into someone else's hands. It is very possible that could Tarquin destroy any chances of anyone, (including himself,) ever controlling the gates, he would. I would not be the least bit surprised if Tarquin did destroy the Gate.

wouldnt it be best then for him to team up with the OoTS instead of trying to kill them?

you yourself showed exactly why he should, if he destroys the gate the damage it would caused would be hard to measure and would mean only one gate prevents the snarl from escaping

[SowZ]

wouldnt it be best then for him to team up with the OoTS instead of trying to kill them?

you yourself showed exactly why he should, if he destroys the gate the damage it would caused would be hard to measure and would mean only one gate prevents the snarl from escaping

The OOTS wouldn't ally themselves with Tarquin in any sincere capacity. Does Tarquin even know how risky destroying the gate would be?

[WindStruck]

Meh, if anything I think whatever information that Nale gave Tarquin concerning the gate and its usefulness was just a ruse.

[Forikroder]

The OOTS wouldn't ally themselves with Tarquin in any sincere capacity. Does Tarquin even know how risky destroying the gate would be?

Tarquin probably knows the gate goes nuclear if its destroyed from Nale

quite frankly i cant imagine how Tarquins actions would in any way make the gate safer so judginh by his actions he really is here for the gate

[SowZ]

Tarquin probably knows the gate goes nuclear if its destroyed from Nale

quite frankly i cant imagine how Tarquins actions would in any way make the gate safer so judginh by his actions he really is here for the gate

But does he know that destroying it weakens the fabric of reality? (And even that may not be true.) I could totally see Tarquin here to destroy the gate and use some method of teleportation to get out. Sure, it would piss Nale off, but Tarquin is clearly using Nale right now, anyway.

[Forikroder]

But does he know that destroying it weakens the fabric of reality? (And even that may not be true.) I could totally see Tarquin here to destroy the gate and use some method of teleportation to get out. Sure, it would piss Nale off, but Tarquin is clearly using Nale right now, anyway.

but Tarquin knows there are other gates, so he wants the OoTS to remain active to prevent the other gate so that Xykon doesnt get that gate and take the desert away from him

[Finagle]

Tarquin seems certain that if they brought the 3 countries into one uber one then its possible the elves or something will then come attack him so why is he trying to get the gate? all that would do is make him the enemy of Team Evil, he has no idea what resources Team Evil for all he knows theyd be strong enough to completely ruin his plan
It's powerful, that fact alone makes it worth having. Plus, if someone else gets it, they could use it against him. It's what Tarquin would do were the situation reversed. It's a defensive move. If Tarquin were to actually sieze the gate, he'd just guard it with his army. In fact, that is his exact plan.

How does Tarquin even know that Team Evil exists? Nale told him? Nale said that he knew who knew the ritual, that's all. And Nale was desperately trying to save his own life at the time. I rather doubt that Xykon wants to ally with the Linear Guild, to him they were just mooks. Worse, mooks that failed. Failed and led directly to the destruction of Xykon's macguffin.


it seems odd that such a meticulously safe planner like Tarquin is taking such a huge risk especially since completing the plan early doesnt seem that big a deal, the 6 of them are already living the life of luxury and there plan is almost guranteed to suceed at this point
Even meticulously safe planners know when to take risks. It's those types you need to really watch out for.

[SowZ]

but Tarquin knows there are other gates, so he wants the OoTS to remain active to prevent the other gate so that Xykon doesnt get that gate and take the desert away from him

Sure. So if he destroys this gate, both the Order and Team Evil leave the desert and hopefully the Order wins at the next gate.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Also, Tarquin is an idiot.

He acts idiotic sometimes, but Tarquin seems pretty sharp.

[Math_Mage]

then comes the contradiction, Tarquin and Malack are currently trying to capture a WMD, presumably so they can cut a decade off there plan and this seems against the original plan

Remember that those are Nale's words, not Tarquin's. Just because Nale thinks Tarquin would use the Gate to cut a decade off his conquest plan doesn't mean Tarquin would actually do that--such a course of action suits Nale's egotistical disposition, not Tarquin's methodology.

Tarquin wants to be the one holding the card (control of the Gate). That doesn't mean he has to play it and make it obvious to the world that he has a superweapon. Tarquin is all about controlling information and having backups for his backups. If he uses the Gate once, twenty years from now, to stave off some serious threat he couldn't address with other resources, he will consider the risk he's taking now time well spent.

[Mike Havran]

Tarquin needs to investigate and make sure whether the Gate is dangerous (to him, at least). Nale could have lied to him. Also, patient as he might be, he is probably also bored in his empire and wants to feel the thrill of fighting some tougher opponents once again.



And also, Tarquin is an idiot and we hates it, we hates it, we hates it forever!

[Koo Rehtorb]

People should probably consider the possibility that Tarquin was lying in his speech to Elan and is actually more ambitious than he let on. I think he's tentatively planning on seizing the gate and getting his adventuring band to see if they can't figure out a way to do something with it.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, just because he was following a certain plan doesn't mean that it's carved in stone. If a sufficiently big temptation or opportunity pops up, he's not going to eschew it just because he had a different plan to begin with.

In other words, control of the Gate would make his original plan unnecessary, probably. Or he thinks it would. Therefore, he's likely to make a grab for this massive, serendipitous shortcut regardless of his original intentions.

Here's a weird example, but it's basically what I'm trying to convey:


Say someone is earning $20 a day to patrol a footpath. Their goal is to buy a $20,000 car. If they keep patrolling, they'll have their car in 3 years.

Now let's say that a flood reveals a previously buried treasure chest 100 feet to the north of the footpath. The chest clearly contains about $1 million, but there are a few crocodiles in the stream in between. Now, this person could choose to ignore the chest and continue patrolling for years.

But knowing human nature, isn't it likely that they're going to abandon the patrol job, try to dodge the crocodiles, and get their car right now plus an extra $980,000 spending money?

It's not a contradiction. It's human nature. Especially when the human is as bold, daring, and confident as Tarquin clearly is.

[Cizak]

Forikroder, may I give some friendly advice? Please, start using capital letters, periods and apostrophes.

[Math_Mage]

Forikroder, may I give some friendly advice? Please, start using capital letters, periods and apostrophes.

You're not the first; Forik claims a disability exemption from the grammar police, and since we won't change that by continually prodding him, probably best to let it lie.

[Forikroder]

How does Tarquin even know that Team Evil exists? Nale told him? Nale said that he knew who knew the ritual, that's all. And Nale was desperately trying to save his own life at the time. I rather doubt that Xykon wants to ally with the Linear Guild, to him they were just mooks. Worse, mooks that failed. Failed and led directly to the destruction of Xykon's macguffin.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html

he doesnt know the specifics but he knows there some cliche scenery chewing villain bent on world conquest


Sure. So if he destroys this gate, both the Order and Team Evil leave the desert and hopefully the Order wins at the next gate.

but in order for him to destroy the gate he first has to destroy the order

hell Malack is already taking one of there primary fighters out of commision and there raising of the corpses directly led to the mental breakdown of there wizard


Remember that those are Nale's words, not Tarquin's. Just because Nale thinks Tarquin would use the Gate to cut a decade off his conquest plan doesn't mean Tarquin would actually do that--such a course of action suits Nale's egotistical disposition, not Tarquin's methodology.

but if Tarquin doesnt plan on using the gate then theres no reason for him to be there


Tarquin wants to be the one holding the card (control of the Gate). That doesn't mean he has to play it and make it obvious to the world that he has a superweapon. Tarquin is all about controlling information and having backups for his backups. If he uses the Gate once, twenty years from now, to stave off some serious threat he couldn't address with other resources, he will consider the risk he's taking now time well spent.

but the risk hes taking now is far more likely to lead to collapse of his plan then some imaginary threat 20 years later

he should release that if he destroys the OoTS here then its extremely likely that the scenery chewing villain bent on world domination will go to the last gate and take over that one

when you consider hes basing his actions off of information he got off nale it all seems to make even less sense

[TheWolfe]

Tarquin has a vested interest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html) in keeping the gate safe. Xykon is literally out there to conquer the world, including the Western Continent. Tarquin has every reason to stop anyone, most of all Xykon, from getting the WMD gate.

[Bulldog Psion]

he should release that if he destroys the OoTS here then its extremely likely that the scenery chewing villain bent on world domination will go to the last gate and take over that one

when you consider hes basing his actions off of information he got off nale it all seems to make even less sense

Do we have any evidence that Tarquin is actually attempting to wipe the Order out? I can't remember the particulars and don't feel like reading through it all right now.

[Forikroder]

Tarquin has a vested interest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html) in keeping the gate safe. Xykon is literally out there to conquer the world, including the Western Continent. Tarquin has every reason to stop anyone, most of all Xykon, from getting the WMD gate.

yes but hes working against keeping the gate safe by hunting the OoTS

unless he plans to retire from the Desert and move onto the next gate afterwards


Do we have any evidence that Tarquin is actually attempting to wipe the Order out? I can't remember the particulars and don't feel like reading through it all right now.

you mean aside from them already working towards it? 2 empowered vitrolic spheres? Malack eating Belkar?

[Peelee]

If he thinks the Gate is a weapon of mass destruction (or some other world-savingly-critical plot device), he has two choices - leave it lying around for anyone to get, or control it himself. Clearly, controlling it himself is the better option, as that way he doesn't have to worry about anyone coming along and using it against him in any way. So long as he never broadcasts, "Hey, everyone, look at me! I have the Gate! Bwahahaha, cower before me," and keeps it on the down-lo, he still doesn't become the common enemy to unite the people against him. So far as the public is concerned, it's just some fortified base way out in the desert.

I don't see any problem here.

[Forikroder]

If he thinks the Gate is a weapon of mass destruction (or some other world-savingly-critical plot device), he has two choices - leave it lying around for anyone to get, or control it himself. Clearly, controlling it himself is the better option, as that way he doesn't have to worry about anyone coming along and using it against him in any way. So long as he never broadcasts, "Hey, everyone, look at me! I have the Gate! Bwahahaha, cower before me," and keeps it on the down-lo, he still doesn't become the common enemy to unite the people against him. So far as the public is concerned, it's just some fortified base way out in the desert.

I don't see any problem here.

the problem is that then Team Evil gets the other gate and actually uses it to take over the world whivh Tarquin doesnt want

[Kish]

you mean aside from them already working towards it? 2 empowered vitrolic spheres? Malack eating Belkar?
In other words, no, TheWolfe, very little. Tarquin is playing along with Nale for now, but he certainly has his own agenda.

[Bulldog Psion]

you mean aside from them already working towards it? 2 empowered vitrolic spheres? Malack eating Belkar?

As far as that goes, I thought the spheres were supposed to drive them into the pyramid. And I don't think that Malack eating Belkar was part of Tarquin's plan; it appears to be the High Priest acting on his own to create a new "child".

[Forikroder]

As far as that goes, I thought the spheres were supposed to drive them into the pyramid. And I don't think that Malack eating Belkar was part of Tarquin's plan; it appears to be the High Priest acting on his own to create a new "child".

Malack was going to either kill Belkar or turn him letting him go was never part of the plan, plus Tarquin has engaged them with the intent to kill twice

if he plans to allow the OoTS to survive he certainly never shared that with Malack

[Bulldog Psion]

Malack was going to either kill Belkar or turn him letting him go was never part of the plan, plus Tarquin has engaged them with the intent to kill twice

if he plans to allow the OoTS to survive he certainly never shared that with Malack

So, you think he's suddenly decided to kill Elan for some reason?

[Forikroder]

So, you think he's suddenly decided to kill Elan for some reason?

only reason he let Elan live was so that Elan could come back and make him a legend, if Elan had been in the way of his conquest plan hed have stabbed him in one of the less hurty organs on that roof

[Peelee]

only reason he let Elan live was so that Elan could come back and make him a legend, if Elan had been in the way of his conquest plan hed have stabbed him in one of the less hurty organs on that roof

Also, driving them back into the pyramid or toying with them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html) is now intent to kill?

[Forikroder]

Also, driving them back into the pyramid or toying with them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html) is now intent to kill?

Malack fixed the toying with them part already

considering Tarquin only decided to mvoe out AFTER he got the story from Nale it seems clear his plan is not to defend the gate

[Peelee]

Malack fixed the toying with them part already

considering Tarquin only decided to mvoe out AFTER he got the story from Nale it seems clear his plan is not to defend the gate

For the moment, let's address the "intent to kill" part. As you said, "Malack fixed the toying with them part already." So you agree that Tarquin was not, in fact, intending to kill the Order?

[Gift Jeraff]

"You should consider yourself lucky that you have someone looking out for your safety." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html) does make it sound like he would have had no problem killing Durkon were Malack not there. Doesn't equate to wiping the Order out, but it would definitely be a huge loss for them.

[King of Nowhere]

I think tarquin looks mostly for the fun. true, he has this plan to rule the continent, but what he wants more is having fun. he's having fun connquering the continent, but he would throw it away for something more fun. I think that's what happened with the gate.
I think tarquin want to dominate a gate or die trying, just because he likes the idea.

[ReaderAt2046]

It's also possible that Tarquin knows it's stupid to fight the OOTS for the Gate, but also knows that as villian, it's his job to do so anyway. Sort of like when Elan believed Nale was dead even though he knew he wasn't.

Also, controlling the Gate (or at least destroying it) is necessary to keep some unauthorized villian from capturing it and overthrowing Tarquin's hegemony. Finally, it might be possible for Tarquin and Co, with control of the Gate, to take on the whole continent and win. Once they get to that level, they can go open with their rule because they can no longer be overthrown.

[Roland Itiative]

Tarquin is not putting great risk by doing what he's doing, he's hiding behind Nale.

If all goes wrong (and it most certainly will), the blame will all be pinned on the Linear Guild, and he'll be able to continue his original plan without problems. After all, he was "just" the Thog substitute, not the leader of the group.

If all goes right, he gets a powerful artefact (that he thinks would be useful to someone like him), further strengthening his hold on the continent, while keeping any rival from getting their hands on it and ruining his plan at the same time. He doesn't need to use it, just secure it so no one else does.

[JackRackham]

yes but hes working against keeping the gate safe by hunting the OoTS

unless he plans to retire from the Desert and move onto the next gate afterwards



you mean aside from them already working towards it? 2 empowered vitrolic spheres? Malack eating Belkar?


Technically, he's just pushing them to find the gate - supposedly so he can then take it from them, but we won't know what he's actually going to do until it happens. Keep in mind that HE suggested this plan. Perhaps he plans to swoop in after the climactic battle, crush the (exhausted) victor, and secure the gate? Or to swoop in at the crucial moment to tip the scales on way or another (and then seize control of the gate from the exhausted victor)? He has shown no intention of destroying the order.

[Math_Mage]

How does Tarquin even know that Team Evil exists? Nale told him? Nale said that he knew who knew the ritual, that's all. And Nale was desperately trying to save his own life at the time. I rather doubt that Xykon wants to ally with the Linear Guild, to him they were just mooks. Worse, mooks that failed. Failed and led directly to the destruction of Xykon's macguffin.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html

he doesnt know the specifics but he knows there some cliche scenery chewing villain bent on world conquest

He knows about the Gates; he does not know the nature of Team Evil. He therefore does not realize how threatening Xykon is, and sees no harm in playing the OotS off against him. Remember, Tarquin sees himself as the main villain of the story.


but if Tarquin doesnt plan on using the gate then theres no reason for him to be there

Sure there is. The Gate is a powerful loose variable in the Western Continent. Tying that up is beneficial to Tarquin whether or not he subsequently uses it.


but the risk hes taking now is far more likely to lead to collapse of his plan then some imaginary threat 20 years later

What risk is he taking that will lead to the collapse of his plan?


he should release that if he destroys the OoTS here then its extremely likely that the scenery chewing villain bent on world domination will go to the last gate and take over that one

when you consider hes basing his actions off of information he got off nale it all seems to make even less sense

It makes much more sense, actually. You're complaining that he isn't making perfect moves--well, Nale didn't give him perfect information. Nale deliberately held back about Team Evil. Tarquin has seen scenery-chewing villains aplenty. He doesn't know Xykon is different.

[Forikroder]

For the moment, let's address the "intent to kill" part. As you said, "Malack fixed the toying with them part already." So you agree that Tarquin was not, in fact, intending to kill the Order?

no i do agree that i think only that Tarquin wanted to see how strong his boy really was before killing him


He knows about the Gates; he does not know the nature of Team Evil. He therefore does not realize how threatening Xykon is, and sees no harm in playing the OotS off against him. Remember, Tarquin sees himself as the main villain of the story.

actually he doesnt, thats why he told Elan to come back in a few years

he knows Elan is currently in the middle of a story if he gets defeated now then he just becomes one mini boss before the big bad thats why he wanted Elan to finish the quest then come back so he can be the big bad


What risk is he taking that will lead to the collapse of his plan?

convincing the whole world to lynch him? just based on info we know, if he takes the gate then that means the Azuritians, the saphire guard, the elves (asslied with said azuritians) and every goblin all has reason to take Tarquins head

then we ahve the rest of the Desert thats full of warlords and dictators who would want the gate

right now hes working off literally 0 information, he only knows theres a macguffin in the desert thats all he knows


It makes much more sense, actually. You're complaining that he isn't making perfect moves--well, Nale didn't give him perfect information. Nale deliberately held back about Team Evil. Tarquin has seen scenery-chewing villains aplenty. He doesn't know Xykon is different.

his actions make more sense when we look at his information source, him choosing to take those actions make less sense

if the gate is so important why wouldnt he wait until he can gather his 4 other extremely powerful comrades and go capture it?

i wonder if his plan is to take the gate and use it to keep his continent from Xykons plan to take over the world

[Math_Mage]

actually he doesnt, thats why he told Elan to come back in a few years

he knows Elan is currently in the middle of a story if he gets defeated now then he just becomes one mini boss before the big bad thats why he wanted Elan to finish the quest then come back so he can be the big bad

A more lucid way to view the scenario is that Tarquin already views himself as the Big Bad, and the scenery-chewing villain Elan is currently engaged with as the miniboss. He tells Elan to leave because the alternatives are him killing Elan (which he doesn't want to do), him persuading Elan to join him (which he can tell Elan isn't going to do), or Elan killing him (which he's not going to let happen if he can help it). None of that in any way suggests that Tarquin doesn't think of himself as the main villain.


convincing the whole world to lynch him? just based on info we know, if he takes the gate then that means the Azuritians, the saphire guard, the elves (asslied with said azuritians) and every goblin all has reason to take Tarquins head

Even assuming (as I would) that Tarquin pumped Nale for the entire Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard and everything up to when Nale flew out of Azure City, he only knows that the Sapphire Guard is bound by an oath not to pursue Girard's Gate. He doesn't know their outlook has changed since Soon's Gate was destroyed. He also doesn't know that the elves have allied with the Azurites or that the Dark One has a Plan.

You have to base your analysis on what Tarquin knows and doesn't know, not on what we know as readers.


then we ahve the rest of the Desert thats full of warlords and dictators who would want the gate

If they know about it. Why would Tarquin reveal the Gate to all and sundry?


right now hes working off literally 0 information, he only knows theres a macguffin in the desert thats all he knows

Then stop talking about things you are assuming Tarquin doesn't know as reasons why his actions are inconsistent. What is inconsistent is your argument.


if the gate is so important why wouldnt he wait until he can gather his 4 other extremely powerful comrades and go capture it?

He's egotistical. Further, he wants to test both Nale and Elan--again, he's not anticipating that there's a much bigger story being told.


i wonder if his plan is to take the gate and use it to keep his continent from Xykons plan to take over the world

He doesn't even know the name 'Xykon'. He doesn't have any such plan yet. Can you make up your mind how much Tarquin knows, please? I'm getting whiplash from all this position changing.

[Forikroder]

Even assuming (as I would) that Tarquin pumped Nale for the entire Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard and everything up to when Nale flew out of Azure City, he only knows that the Sapphire Guard is bound by an oath not to pursue Girard's Gate. He doesn't know their outlook has changed since Soon's Gate was destroyed. He also doesn't know that the elves have allied with the Azurites or that the Dark One has a Plan.

You have to base your analysis on what Tarquin knows and doesn't know, not on what we know as readers.

you know what Nale doesnt know? that Shojo is dead

as far as he knows that old coot survived and is still hiring adventurers to go after Girards gate

Shojo doesnt have to go near Girards gate to send a paladin hit squad into the EoB

even assuming for some reason while explaining the gates Shojo decided to reiterate the oath, and it still leaves Azure citys normal militia at his disposal


He's egotistical. Further, he wants to test both Nale and Elan--again, he's not anticipating that there's a much bigger story being told.

it would make no sense he doesnt realise theres a bigger story he already guessed as much already


He doesn't even know the name 'Xykon'. He doesn't have any such plan yet. Can you make up your mind how much Tarquin knows, please? I'm getting whiplash from all this position changing.

it got to be a pain in the ass to right "scenery chewing villain" every time i wanted to talk about Xykon

i may be paranoid but i cant help but feel that Tarquin has some super secret plan in action, its possible he was even already contacted by the IFCC and they got him to make Nale stop wasting time in the EoB and go after the OoTS again already (similar to how they used V to get Xykon to start moving again)

[Math_Mage]

you know what Nale doesnt know? that Shojo is dead

as far as he knows that old coot survived and is still hiring adventurers to go after Girards gate

Shojo doesnt have to go near Girards gate to send a paladin hit squad into the EoB

even assuming for some reason while explaining the gates Shojo decided to reiterate the oath, and it still leaves Azure citys normal militia at his disposal

He doesn't know "that old coot" is hiring anyone to go after Girard's Gate to begin with.


it would make no sense he doesnt realise theres a bigger story he already guessed as much already

No, he's guessed there's a story--in his words, a 'little plot' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html), i.e., subordinate to the story of Tarquin and Elan.


it got to be a pain in the ass to right "scenery chewing villain" every time i wanted to talk about Xykon

Not my point. Tarquin has no reason to concoct a Plan A that depends on letting the villain take over the rest of the world. That would be at best a Plan C, a contingency in case of failure on other fronts.


i may be paranoid but i cant help but feel that Tarquin has some super secret plan in action, its possible he was even already contacted by the IFCC and they got him to make Nale stop wasting time in the EoB and go after the OoTS again already (similar to how they used V to get Xykon to start moving again)

Nale was already going after the OotS before Tarquin got involved, and Nale was decidedly NOT 'wasting time' in the EoB from the IFCC's perspective. It's one thing to be paranoid about Tarquin's potential plots; quite another to be paranoid that Tarquin has a plot that accomplishes nothing whatsoever.

Forik, if you're going to argue comic minutiae, could you please go reread the strips you plan to talk about? I'm fine having a discussion (or an argument) about the comic with you, but when it devolves into you making baseless assertions and me reminding you of what the comic actually says, there's no fun in that.

[Forikroder]

He doesn't know "that old coot" is hiring anyone to go after Girard's Gate to begin with.

i dont even know how to respond to this...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0366.html

even someone as dumb as Nale would be able to figure out that Shojo hired them to do it especially since

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html

Shojo and Roy TALKED about how Shojo hired them to doa job

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html

and then even talk about the payment he recieved within earshot of him


Not my point. Tarquin has no reason to concoct a Plan A that depends on letting the villain take over the rest of the world. That would be at best a Plan C, a contingency in case of failure on other fronts.

depends how its pulled off, if he allowed Xykon (sorry the scenery chewing villain) to take over the world, then swoops in and saves the world he gets considered a great hero and gets treated like a god until his natural demise


Nale was already going after the OotS before Tarquin got involved, and he's decidedly NOT 'wasting time' in the EoB from the IFCC's perspective. It's one thing to be paranoid about Tarquin's potential plots; quite another to be paranoid that Tarquin has a plot that accomplishes nothing whatsoever.

if Nale was "already going after the OoTS" then he wouldnt ahve stayed in the EoB he would ahve immediately gone after the gate (in hindsight i should ahve said "make Nale stop wasting time in the EoB and go after the GATE again" not the OoTS)

Nale should have jumped ship the second Penelop died and his spring of information dried up there was no reason to remain in the EoB, especially after he got beat

the IFCC wants conflict, for some reason, allt hey want the Lg to do is run around causing messes but being completely innefective so them spending weeks in the EoB, even after Penelope died, is as bad to them as Xykon holing up in Azure city for so long (well not AS bad but certainly not good for them at all)

i wouldnt be surprised if the IFCC has teamed up with Tarquin to fulfill there uber secret secret plan of secretness

[Math_Mage]

i dont even know how to respond to this...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0366.html

even someone as dumb as Nale would be able to figure out that Shojo hired them to do it especially since

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html

Shojo and Roy TALKED about how Shojo hired them to doa job

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html

and then even talk about the payment he recieved within earshot of him

Hm, 379 is at least enough to make it plausible. (The others are irrelevant.) I guess I have some comic rereading of my own to do. Regardless, it's not like Tarquin is particularly worried about adventuring parties, or has any reason to be, considering the strength of his team.


depends how its pulled off, if he allowed Xykon (sorry the scenery chewing villain) to take over the world, then swoops in and saves the world he gets considered a great hero and gets treated like a god until his natural demise

We already know what his plan is. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) Whatever happens or doesn't happen with Xykon after that will be dealt with later. The plan you listed certainly isn't something Tarquin would pursue without knowing anything about the villain in question--like, say, whether he has a realistic chance of actually taking over the world.


if Nale was "already going after the OoTS" then he wouldnt ahve stayed in the EoB he would ahve immediately gone after the gate (in hindsight i should ahve said "make Nale stop wasting time in the EoB and go after the GATE again" not the OoTS)

Nale should have jumped ship the second Penelop died and his spring of information dried up there was no reason to remain in the EoB, especially after he got beat

the IFCC wants conflict, for some reason, allt hey want the Lg to do is run around causing messes but being completely innefective so them spending weeks in the EoB, even after Penelope died, is as bad to them as Xykon holing up in Azure city for so long (well not AS bad but certainly not good for them at all)

i wouldnt be surprised if the IFCC has teamed up with Tarquin to fulfill there uber secret secret plan of secretness

Oh, for the love of...Why on earth do we need to suppose Tarquin is involved with the IFCC just to get the LG moving? They didn't stop Nale from taking his sweet time finding Pompey. They already have two voices in the Linear Guild. They have neither a sense of particular temporal urgency, nor any lack of existing influence on the LG. There is zero evidence of your theory and plenty of reasons why it's completely unnecessary. Quit it with the epileptic trees. It's enough that your complaint about Tarquin going after the Gate is absurd, you don't need to pile a conspiracy theory worthy of Alex Jones on top of that. :smallannoyed:

[Forikroder]

Hm, 379 is at least enough to make it plausible. (The others are irrelevant.) I guess I have some comic rereading of my own to do. Regardless, it's not like Tarquin is particularly worried about adventuring parties, or has any reason to be, considering the strength of his team.

its not like hes convinced that at some point an adventuring party will break into his throne room and ram a sword into his chest... (preferably in a dramatic appropriate way)


We already know what his plan is. Whatever happens or doesn't happen with Xykon after that will be dealt with later. The plan you listed certainly isn't something Tarquin would pursue without knowing anything about the villain in question--like, say, whether he has a realistic chance of actually taking over the world.

Tarquin should know that the gates control a being of strength equivalant to a god if someone could harness the power of the snarl ruling the world would be considered small scale villainry


Oh, for the love of...Why on earth do we need to suppose Tarquin is involved with the IFCC just to get the LG moving? They didn't stop Nale from taking his sweet time finding Pompey.

at that time Nale was working on a plan to take down the OoTS but lacked manpower, Nale cant create needless conflict without the manpower needed to be a threat, after Penelope died he had no reason to remain in the EoB, not only is it risky but hes more likely to find a cleric willing to join away from his fathers seat of power


They already have two voices in the Linear Guild

one of there vocies refuses to try to get Nale to do things and the other is a familiar of there practically mute wizard

there 2 voices in the Lg couldnt even stop Nale from doing his suicidal ambush theres no way they could convince him to stop dragging his feet

[Math_Mage]

its not like hes convinced that at some point an adventuring party will break into his throne room and ram a sword into his chest... (preferably in a dramatic appropriate way)

There is no inconsistency between reminding himself that eventually some group of adventurers will do him in, and not being particularly worried about any one stream of adventurers. That's just statistics.


Tarquin should know that the gates control a being of strength equivalant to a god if someone could harness the power of the snarl ruling the world would be considered small scale villainry

Then Tarquin has no reason to worry about the world coming for him once he controls a Gate, right? So your claim that Tarquin's taking a risk that'll come back to bite him in the butt is false by your own admission. And if he claims Girard's Gate and (in his plans) gets to Team Evil's control ritual through Nale, why would he let Team Evil get access to the power of the Snarl? So your claim that Tarquin is planning to let Team Evil take over the rest of the world is implausible by your own admission. Your arguments are falling apart at the seams here.


at that time Nale was working on a plan to take down the OoTS but lacked manpower, Nale cant create needless conflict without the manpower needed to be a threat, after Penelope died he had no reason to remain in the EoB, not only is it risky but hes more likely to find a cleric willing to join away from his fathers seat of power



one of there vocies refuses to try to get Nale to do things and the other is a familiar of there practically mute wizard

there 2 voices in the Lg couldnt even stop Nale from doing his suicidal ambush theres no way they could convince him to stop dragging his feet

And so the IFCC got impatient after less than a fortnight and made a deal with Tarquin off-screen, with no hints, and much easier explanations for the events of the comic at hand? Why would they bother with Nale & co. if they had such easy access to Tarquin in the first place? :smallsigh:

[Forikroder]

Then Tarquin has no reason to worry about the world coming for him once he controls a Gate, right? So your claim that Tarquin's taking a risk that'll come back to bite him in the butt is false by your own admission. And if he claims Girard's Gate and (in his plans) gets to Team Evil's control ritual through Nale, why would he let Team Evil get access to the power of the Snarl? So your claim that Tarquin is planning to let Team Evil take over the rest of the world is implausible by your own admission. Your arguments are falling apart at the seams here.

in that case hed be worried about the Gods unmaking existance to remake a new prison for the Snarl

besides no matter how strong a villain is the Hero always kills him in the end

also Team Evil doesnt ahve a control ritual, they can only move the gate to a different plane and then the dark one can threaten to unleash the snarl onto that plane


And so the IFCC got impatient after less than a fortnight and made a deal with Tarquin off-screen, with no hints, and much easier explanations for the events of the comic at hand? Why would they bother with Nale & co. if they had such easy access to Tarquin in the first place?

im not saying that is what happened im only throwing out ideas here :smallannoyed:

as for why they would bother with Nale & co thats been a question since day one, why do they care about causing needless conflict so much?

[Math_Mage]

in that case hed be worried about the Gods unmaking existance to remake a new prison for the Snarl

...No, he wouldn't. I'm not even going to bother arguing about it.


besides no matter how strong a villain is the Hero always kills him in the end

Which doesn't change the truth of what I said.


also Team Evil doesnt ahve a control ritual, they can only move the gate to a different plane and then the dark one can threaten to unleash the snarl onto that plane

Stop making arguments about how Tarquin should behave based on information Tarquin doesn't have.


im not saying that is what happened im only throwing out ideas here :smallannoyed:

If you're not arguing that the idea is likely, then acknowledge the implausibility of the idea instead of continually arguing for it.


as for why they would bother with Nale & co thats been a question since day one, why do they care about causing needless conflict so much?

Again, not the question I was asking, but I'm not going to bother clarifying the obvious for you anymore, as I was perfectly clear before.

[Forikroder]

Stop making arguments about how Tarquin should behave based on information Tarquin doesn't have.

that ones my bad didnt read too clearly


If you're not arguing that the idea is likely, then acknowledge the implausibility of the idea instead of continually arguing for it.

we cant say waht is or isnt likely with the info we have

we have no idea what the IFCC plans is, we have no idea if tarquin has some hidden agenda e.t.c

for all we know the IFCC needs a high level adventuring party that can move around behind the scenes and complete there real objective while everyone else is busy worrying over the gates and Tarquins only gonna hang around Girards gate long enough to ensure noone can get it and then will move on


Again, not the question I was asking, but I'm not going to bother clarifying the obvious for you anymore, as I was perfectly clear before.

your question (as i understood it) is why they would bother with Nale when Tarquin is more competent

but they could ahve gotten competent evil adventurers from the start but chose not to

[Math_Mage]

we cant say waht is or isnt likely with the info we have

Yes, we can. A little thing called conditional probability allows us to talk about the likelihood of outcomes given limited information. We can evaluate the theory in terms of the strength, consistency, and specificity of the in-comic evidence for it; and we can examine it for explanatory coherence with existing theory (that is, answer the question "how much of what we know about the comic do we have to overturn for this to be true?").

Not all scenarios that are not absolutely true or absolutely false are equally likely. Tarquin being an IFCC plant is extremely unlikely.


your question (as i understood it) is why they would bother with Nale when Tarquin is more competent

but they could ahve gotten competent evil adventurers from the start but chose not to

Bolded is the part that you're just making up. We have no evidence that they could have done anything of the sort.

[lio45]

it got to be a pain in the ass to right "scenery chewing villain" every time i wanted to talk about Xykon

i may be paranoid but i cant help but feel that Tarquin has some super secret plan in action, its possible he was even already contacted by the IFCC and they got him to make Nale stop wasting time in the EoB and go after the OoTS again already (similar to how they used V to get Xykon to start moving again)

FWIW, you could've defined it as "SCV", then used that. It's even shorter to write than Xykon... Surely you realize there's a subtle difference in using "Xykon" vs using the properly vague words to refer to what is an unknown villain to the person you're talking about. For example, a sentence like "Tarquin knows Xykon is coming" implies just that, that he knows Xykon is coming, which he doesn't.

(And seeing how you happened to use all three "IFCC", "EoB" and "OoTS" right in the paragraph below, I'm pretty sure "SCV" wouldn't have been a problem for you...)

[Snails]

The only contradiction is the stupidity of Nale. He does not really have a plan except seize a Gate and negotiate with a maniac or a maniac's sidekick, either of which who could easily snuff him.

Why Tarquin wants in on the action is not crystal clear. It could be he thinks he can improve on Nale's non-plan because he is more powerful. Or it could be he wants in because he wants to manipulate his sons in order to "repair" the soured relationships. Likely both.

[Forikroder]

Bolded is the part that you're just making up. We have no evidence that they could have done anything of the sort.

oh please all theyd ahve to do is tell one evil party that about the gate then have sabine join the group pretending to know how to control it and BAM you have an evil adventuring party going after the gate

[TheYell]

We know Tarquin considered he was in a "race". He did not raise an army to take and hold the Gate at this time. He may not know about Xykon, or, may believe he has plenty of time to deal with him later. He may consider that his only problem is the OOTS and they've proved dumber and weaker than his crew.

Either OOTS takes the Gate, in which case Tarquin probably figures he can take it from them. Or they don't even find it, and OOTS is there to be disposed of.

Either the Gate is of immediate use to him, or it can be held for some advantage.
What should be apparent is that it potentially can be a disruption to his ongoing project, so, he can't afford to have banquets and let other people settle it while he's not looking.

[Gift Jeraff]

It's possible the IFCC did try using Tarquin as a pawn in the past, hence why there's a hinted past between Tarquin and Sabine, but then they reassigned her to Nale because:
-Tarquin's able to tell when he's being manipulated
-Nale is reckless whereas Tarquin plays things safe
-Nale wouldn't let things like family and close friends get in the way

And so on.

[Forikroder]

It's possible the IFCC did try using Tarquin as a pawn in the past, hence why there's a hinted past between Tarquin and Sabine, but then they reassigned her to Nale because:
-Tarquin's able to tell when he's being manipulated
-Nale is reckless whereas Tarquin plays things safe
-Nale wouldn't let things like family and close friends get in the way

And so on.

your implying Tarquin is letting things like friends dn family get in the way

besides the IFCC could easily buy tarquins loyalty with a large chunk of the world, if there plan suceeds theyll be ruling all creation by taking out the good gods they may not even care about the mortal plane at taht point and like someone as evil as Tarquin to be in charge of it

[Raineh Daze]

your implying Tarquin is letting things like friends dn family get in the way

besides the IFCC could easily buy tarquins loyalty with a large chunk of the world, if there plan suceeds theyll be ruling all creation by taking out the good gods they may not even care about the mortal plane at taht point and like someone as evil as Tarquin to be in charge of it

He refrained from wounding Durkon because Malack asked him to. I think that meets the first criterion.

The second one assumes that he would be content to just be handed the world on a silver platter. Given his love of the dramatic, I'm not convinced that Tarquin would find that in any way satisfying.

[Rig]

To my mind, it boils down to Tarquin knowing that his position as the evil empire is not impregnable. He knows that the order of the stick have competition, and considering his Dangerously Genre Savvyness, he knows that there's a good chance they're stronger then he is. It's something of a toss-up as to whether it will be evil vs evil or summary victory, though likely not dispatchment, as he has quite the character development to share, so he's taking the initiative. We know that he considers his rivals enough of a spanner in the works for him to willingly approach a existential nullifier, which says it all in so far as the spiel he gave elan is concerned.

I think it's interesting that they're are all these darth vader references, when he's part of an empire he clearly isn't subservient too...

[Math_Mage]

oh please all theyd ahve to do is tell one evil party that about the gate then have sabine join the group pretending to know how to control it and BAM you have an evil adventuring party going after the gate

Powerful evil adventuring parties don't just grow on trees. And many of them simply wouldn't be interested--good luck getting someone like Bozzok to light out for the Western Continent. Still others would be much harder to manipulate than Nale--*cough* TARQUIN, for example.

[Petey7]

oh please all theyd ahve to do is tell one evil party that about the gate then have sabine join the group pretending to know how to control it and BAM you have an evil adventuring party going after the gate

If I'm not mistaken, they did do this more or less. That evil team is called the Linear Guild.

Is Tarquin talking a risk traveling to the gate himself? Sure. But he would be taking a bigger risk not learning as much as possible. In situations like these intelligence work is necessary, and as it turned out, Tarquin and Malack were the two only qualified people for the job immediately available. Based on the information we know that Tarquin knows, what he is doing makes sense. That, is except for the OPs assumption that Tarquin wants to use the gate to accelerate his plans, but that has already been discussed.

[theNater]

oh please all theyd ahve to do is tell one evil party that about the gate then have sabine join the group pretending to know how to control it and BAM you have an evil adventuring party going after the gate
Why would an evil party trust the IFCC? Luring victims into horrific traps by promising untold power and wealth is a classic demonic trick.

[JennTora]

Why would an evil party trust the IFCC? Luring victims into horrific traps by promising untold power and wealth is a classic demonic trick.

They might if they thought evil was one big happy family. Or if they were stupid.

[Kish]

They might if they thought evil was one big happy family. Or if they were stupid.
Why the unnecessary redundancy?

...Anyway, Forikroder said a competent band of evil adventurers. Any argument that leads back to "they could have gotten such a group provided said group was really stupid" is 1) what they did, see the Linear Guild, and 2) doesn't support Forikroder's point, whatever it was.

[Forikroder]

He refrained from wounding Durkon because Malack asked him to. I think that meets the first criterion.

hes just saving Durkon for last not actually sparing him


The second one assumes that he would be content to just be handed the world on a silver platter. Given his love of the dramatic, I'm not convinced that Tarquin would find that in any way satisfying.

you really think Tarquins conna care about the means? thats something NALE would do Tarquins smart enough to take an opportunity when it presents itself

plus since hed be doing alot of work on the ground it wouldnt be handed to him


Powerful evil adventuring parties don't just grow on trees. And many of them simply wouldn't be interested--good luck getting someone like Bozzok to light out for the Western Continent. Still others would be much harder to manipulate than Nale--*cough* TARQUIN, for example.

Bozzok is not part of an evil adventuring party hes the leader of a rogues guild

evil adventuring parties may not grow on trees but there are some going around here and there


If I'm not mistaken, they did do this more or less. That evil team is called the Linear Guild.

i meant a COMPETENT adventuring party


Is Tarquin talking a risk traveling to the gate himself? Sure. But he would be taking a bigger risk not learning as much as possible. In situations like these intelligence work is necessary, and as it turned out, Tarquin and Malack were the two only qualified people for the job immediately available. Based on the information we know that Tarquin knows, what he is doing makes sense. That, is except for the OPs assumption that Tarquin wants to use the gate to accelerate his plans, but that has already been discussed.

hes either gonna use the gate to accelrate his plans or hes destorying the gates defenses and defenders in order to defend the gate which makes even less sense


Why would an evil party trust the IFCC? Luring victims into horrific traps by promising untold power and wealth is a classic demonic trick.

its a classic cause it works


...Anyway, Forikroder said a competent band of evil adventurers. Any argument that leads back to "they could have gotten such a group provided said group was really stupid" is 1) what they did, see the Linear Guild, and 2) doesn't support Forikroder's point, whatever it was.

they wouldnt have to be stupid to want a mega powerful weapon capable of world domination

they jsut need to let the party know about it without making it clear who the info is cming from like have some mystic tome explaining the gate just so happen to be in an orphanage they were looting or something

[Dwy]

Forik, this entire thread is filled with assumptions with no foundations in the actual webcomic. You know, that thing where the theories come from.

For the rest: Look up the roleplaying terms IC, OOC and Metagaming.
All your suggestions require metagaming and a blurred out distinction between IC and OOC information.

[Forikroder]

Forik, this entire thread is filled with assumptions with no foundations in the actual webcomic. You know, that thing where the theories come from.

For the rest: Look up the roleplaying terms IC, OOC and Metagaming.
All your suggestions require metagaming and a blurred out distinction between IC and OOC information.

no they dont, Tarquin KNOWS there is someone after the gate, tarquin KNOWS that the OoTS is actively trying to rpevent said person from taking the gate tarquin has every reason to suspect that the end goal of said person is world domination

therefore it seems odd that someone as meticulous and cautious as Tarquin is acting in the spur of the moment like he did

[Math_Mage]

no they dont, Tarquin KNOWS there is someone after the gate, tarquin KNOWS that the OoTS is actively trying to rpevent said person from taking the gate tarquin has every reason to suspect that the end goal of said person is world domination

therefore it seems odd that someone as meticulous and cautious as Tarquin is acting in the spur of the moment like he did

Okay, so at least we've reached an agreement on what Tarquin knows. So the question is, does Tarquin have reason to believe (a) that the villain after the Gate has a good chance of seizing it from Tarquin, and (b) that the Order would do as good a job of protecting the Gate as Tarquin would?

[Petey7]

hes just saving Durkon for last not actually sparing him
All you asked was if he was basing his decisions on what his friends and family wanted. Choosing to not attack an enemy so your friend can counts.



you really think Tarquins conna care about the means? thats something NALE would do Tarquins smart enough to take an opportunity when it presents itself
....
hes either gonna use the gate to accelrate his plans or hes destorying the gates defenses and defenders in order to defend the gate which makes even less sense


I believe both of the above paragraphs are basely statements. Considering how much thought and effort Tarquin has put towards his current plan, compared to how Nale usually does things, that is to say he acts on impulse often, I would say the opposite it true. But then again we haven't seen enough of Tarquin to be sure.

We don't know what Tarquins plans are besides gaining information on the gate and testing the fighting skills of the Order. As has already been stated, Nale said Tarquin would use the gate to accelerate his plan, not Tarquin. We have no clue if Tarquin would have just rolled in and killed the gates defenders because they were already dead. Yes, he is having most of the traps along the way disabled but he has to see the gate to know it is actually there.

Also, taking possession of the gate and then defending it with his own resources makes sense. As we've said, the gate can be analogous to a superweapon, at least to those who don't understand what it actually does. By letting strangers (who he now knows are dead) protect it, he never knows if someone is taking control of the gate at any given moment, or how the gate is being defended. By having his own forces defend it, he knows how it is being defended and can have a system in place to be notified if anyone shows up there.

[Forikroder]

Okay, so at least we've reached an agreement on what Tarquin knows. So the question is, does Tarquin have reason to believe (a) that the villain after the Gate has a good chance of seizing it from Tarquin, and (b) that the Order would do as good a job of protecting the Gate as Tarquin would?

considering how obsessed he is with literary devixces he should realise that if he tries to but in mid story like this it wont bode well


All you asked was if he was basing his decisions on what his friends and family wanted. Choosing to not attack an enemy so your friend can counts.

Malack didnt want to even be there Tarquin FORCED him into it he only allowed a small favour to malack so that Malack would be willing to stay

i dont think Malack would ahve gone if Tarquin refused his request


Also, taking possession of the gate and then defending it with his own resources makes sense. As we've said, the gate can be analogous to a superweapon, at least to those who don't understand what it actually does. By letting strangers (who he now knows are dead) protect it, he never knows if someone is taking control of the gate at any given moment, or how the gate is being defended. By having his own forces defend it, he knows how it is being defended and can have a system in place to be notified if anyone shows up there.

he fired 2 blind empowered vitrolic spheres into the Pyramid

for all he knew the Draketooth's were having a deep conversation with the order and he was slaughtering them

every move Tarquin makes makes the gate less defended if he was planning to defend it he should ahve at least tried to parlay with the Order before trying to kill them

[Kish]

I wasn't aware Tarquin (or Malack) was the Linear Guild's arcane caster. I even thought Tarquin objected when Zz'dtri cast the Empowered Vitriolic Spheres.

[Forikroder]

I wasn't aware Tarquin (or Malack) was the Linear Guild's arcane caster. I even thought Tarquin objected when Zz'dtri cast the Empowered Vitriolic Spheres.

no Tarquin didnt at all object, Malack objected to them hurting Durkon and Tarquin was a bit curious why they attacked so soon but thats all

BTW just remembered taht Nale shares my concern

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0856.html

[Math_Mage]

considering how obsessed he is with literary devixces he should realise that if he tries to but in mid story like this it wont bode well

So, 'no'. Are we done?


no Tarquin didnt at all object, Malack objected to them hurting Durkon and Tarquin was a bit curious why they attacked so soon but thats all

BTW just remembered taht Nale shares my concern

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0856.html

Nale shares your general concern that Tarquin is up to something. That's not a point of dispute, since everyone already agrees about that. He does NOT share your specific concerns that Tarquin is
(a) Engaged in action contrary to his principles;
(b) Planning to let the SCV absorb the rest of the world; or
(c) An IFCC plant.

[Forikroder]

So, 'no'. Are we done?

oh come on the guy has basically planned his life based on narrative, besides Tarqiun cant leave the Desert so the OoTS would obviously be better defenders

besides remember that Quar mysteriously dispeared, the IFCC must have something planned for Girards gate


He does NOT share your specific concerns that Tarquin is
(a) Engaged in action contrary to his principles

actually id assume that this is why he feels there something up (or at least a contributor)

i really dont get why you think that its so impossible taht something unexpected is going happen so much that you dont feel it deserves discussion

[blazingshadow]

I think Tarquin is trying to do the obvious thing and graduate from ruler of the desert to ruler of the world by taking over the gates for himself. Nale probably told him there were more than 1 gate left so why not redo his plan to encompass the whole world and play musical WMDs

He has no idea of how strong team evil is since I don't believe that Nale knows or cares how strong Xykon and his friends are.

...then again Tarquin might just want his children to gain some xp and levels by forcing some competition with each other and so he will have a hand in raising the chosen one who will finally dethrone him.

[Math_Mage]

oh come on the guy has basically planned his life based on narrative, besides Tarqiun cant leave the Desert so the OoTS would obviously be better defenders

besides remember that Quar mysteriously dispeared, the IFCC must have something planned for Girards gate

Why would the Order's ability to leave the desert make them better at defending the Gate in the desert? Why should Tarquin's sense of narrative contradict the actions he's taking? Why should Tarquin have any idea what Qarr is up to?


actually id assume that this is why he feels there something up (or at least a contributor)

You're mistaking Nale thinking something is going on beyond his limited knowledge and us thinking something is going on beyond our rather more extensive knowledge (and you thinking some very specific things are going on for which there is no evidence).


i really dont get why you think that its so impossible taht something unexpected is going happen so much that you dont feel it deserves discussion

I don't think it's impossible that something unexpected is going to happen. You weren't arguing for a vague and unspecified unexpected action, either. For the OP you seem to have very little idea what the original point of the thread was.

[Forikroder]

Why would the Order's ability to leave the desert make them better at defending the Gate in the desert? Why should Tarquin's sense of narrative contradict the actions he's taking? Why should Tarquin have any idea what Qarr is up to?
because theres only one gate and its in the desert right...

Tarquins sense of narrative should tell him that butting in mid story like this will not work, hell get defeated and the main villain will continue being the main villain its too late in the story for such a sudden switch of main villains

[Math_Mage]

because theres only one gate and its in the desert right...

Tarquins sense of narrative should tell him that butting in mid story like this will not work, hell get defeated and the main villain will continue being the main villain its too late in the story for such a sudden switch of main villains

"The middle of what, son? The story? There is no middle, there's just the point between where storytellers start and stop talking." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html)

Also, and this might just come as a surprise to you, Tarquin doesn't think of Team Evil as the 'main villain' of anything but Elan's 'little plot'. If there's a perceived contradiction arising from your belief that Tarquin knows he's not the main villain, best throw it out.

[martianmister]

Also, and this might just come as a surprise to you, Tarquin doesn't think of Team Evil as the 'main villain' of anything but Elan's 'little plot'.

1. At that point, he hasn't any idea about Elan's quest and Xykon.

2. Tarquin is the main villain of a story, just not oots' story.


If there's a perceived contradiction arising from your belief that Tarquin knows he's not the main villain, best throw it out.

Tarquin: "Somewhere between villain of the week and good triumphs over evil, there is a sweet spot where guys like me get to rule the roost for years."

[Math_Mage]

1. At that point, he hasn't any idea about Elan's quest and Xykon.

He knows that it involves some scenery-chewing villain bent on world domination and it involves these Gates Nale told him about.


2. Tarquin is the main villain of a story, just not oots' story.

The gap between what Tarquin is and what Tarquin perceives himself to be is significant.


Tarquin: "Somewhere between villain of the week and good triumphs over evil, there is a sweet spot where guys like me get to rule the roost for years."

And?

[martianmister]

He knows that it involves some scenery-chewing villain bent on world domination and it involves these Gates Nale told him about.

1. We don't really know how much he knows about Xykon, and it's a moot point anyway: He didn't have any idea about the gates when he's talking about his plan.

2. Xykon is a "scenery-chewing villain bent on world domination". He was right at that.


The gap between what Tarquin is and what Tarquin perceives himself to be is significant.

He never claimed to be Toots' main character.

[Math_Mage]

1. We don't really know how much he knows about Xykon, and it's a moot point anyway: He didn't have any idea about the gates when he's talking about his plan.

2. Xykon is a "scenery-chewing villain bent on world domination". He was right at that.



He never claimed to be Toots' main character.

Okay, did you actually have an argument that actually undermines my basic point re: why Tarquin's actions are not inconsistent? Or are we gonna stand here trading 1% nitpicks over scenes we agree 99% about?

[SowZ]

I still don't see why Tarquin destroying the gate isn't a real possibility. What actions has he taken that go against that assumption? Tarquin doesn't know how important the gates are, does he? (Note: We don't really know how important the gates are, either. Evidence we have shows that either A. the Snarl has changed OR B. The first scribble comic was filled with lies.)

[Math_Mage]

I still don't see why Tarquin destroying the gate isn't a real possibility. What actions has he taken that go against that assumption? Tarquin doesn't know how important the gates are, does he? (Note: We don't really know how important the gates are, either. Evidence we have shows that either A. the Snarl has changed OR B. The first scribble comic was filled with lies.)

I think it's safe to assume that anything Nale knows about the Gates, Tarquin now knows. Since that includes the secret lore of the Sapphire Guard, Tarquin knows the threat destroying these Gates poses.

I don't see Tarquin as he is now destroying the Gate and putting his pretty awesome earthly existence at risk. However, you have just triggered several epileptic trees in my head regarding ways in which Tarquin's arc might lead to him destroying the Gate. Nothing I'm willing to subject to ridicule by posting, though.