Gnomes

[Razanir]

Why does everyone hate gnomes and avoid them like the plague? Is it because they're just not a very good race or is it because of fluff?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

*Shrugs*

I'm not actually that familiar with Gnomes, though I do like the underdark equivalent, Snivelphlegm, or whatever they're called.

I call them Snivelphlegm.

Anyway, I guess Gnomes just don't seem like all that adventure-y a race. They're wrinkly, they're ugly, and most of what they could be is already covered by halflings. There also don't seem to be a lot of character archetypes that really fit with them - "Curious academic" seems to cover it.

[Gotterdammerung]

My understanding, is this prejudice was a direct result of gnomes always being up to no good historically in pre-written modules. Pretty much, if you see a gnome in a pre-written module, especially earlier editions, THAT IS THE BAD GUY KILL HIM/HER NOW! DON"T ASK QUESTIONS OR LOOK FOR PROOF JUST KILL IT NOW!

[Gnomish Wanderer]

We're not wrinkly or ugly!

And I don't hate gnomes. I have had players who hate kender with a passion and associate gnomes with kender, but never gnomes by themselves. I also haven't noticed any prejudice on the boards.

[Gnome Alone]

a) They're often played as comic relief doofi messing with strange inventions or composing limericks; kinda grating.

b) They're not in Tolkein. I'm trying to bemoan the decline of Western Civilization over here.

c) How many "short races" do we need?

[Gotterdammerung]

We're not wrinkly or ugly!

And I don't hate gnomes. I have had players who hate kender with a passion and associate gnomes with kender, but never gnomes by themselves. I also haven't noticed any prejudice on the boards.

*PSSST ....She is a gnome. Don't trust her.*

[Norin]

Because of the killer-gnomes. :smalleek:

It's not that people dislike them, they fear them.

[Razanir]

So it sounds like people would be more open to playing them if they were distinguished better from halflings?

[Gnome Alone]

Mechanically, they're a Small sized race with a CON bonus. That's nice even if you're not some manner of illusionist.

[ghost_warlock]

The only thing wrong with gnomes is that they're at war with kobolds.

Which is probably the best thing that could happen for all the the other races because an alliance between killer gnomes and dragonwrought kobolds would be unstoppable.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

So it sounds like people would be more open to playing them if they were distinguished better from halflings?

In my world, Gnomes are the descendants of a group of human wizards and academics who altered themselves for longevity and intellectual power; as a race, they're almost all obsessive academics who tend towards recklessness in their pursuit of knowledge.

[tadkins]

Gnomes are about all I find myself playing in most games. They're just awesome. Friendly, unassuming little folk with the power of the cosmos at their fingertips.

Also, Whisper Gnomes are a popular race for a lot of character builds.

[Big Fau]

It's more a hatred for Kender than it is for Gnomes.

[Answerer]

I rather like Gnomes. The prankster thing is overdone, but Gnomes aren't always like that, even in the books.

Kender, though, those are awful. Literally, as written in the books, to roleplay one "correctly" is to be a complete and utter **** to your fellow players. I literally would not play in a game where someone wanted to play one.

[nedz]

I rather like Kender. The prankster thing is overdone, but Kender aren't always like that, even in the books.

It's the same argument is it not ?

Neither Gnomes, nor Kender, need to be played as small annoyances.

There are other ways to play them. Even the prankster thing can work, but targeting the party is lame, well not all the time anyway. Taking out the antagonists in an amusing, or ironic, way can be fun.

[Urpriest]

I feel like it's mostly due to Dragonlance's Tinker Gnomes (note how often Kender are mentioned in this thread...it's not really a coincidence that every Dragonlance race except Minotaurs has either forgettable or horrible fluff), and later World of Warcraft Gnomes which cemented Gnomes in many peoples' minds as comic relief. I tend to really enjoy Gnomes, but largely because I don't lend much credence to either of those portrayals.

[Razanir]

So pretty much, the people who hate them really just hate how they're a pranking nuisance filling a niche mostly filled by halflings?

In which case, how do you think people would react if I refluffed them into earth/nature spirits for my campaign?

[Gnomish Wanderer]

I don't know what the halflings niche thing has to do with anything. For me, halflings have always been boring, pretty much hobbits with a penchant for thieving. Gnomes have life, they are exciting. I think people get annoyed by kender because they're destructively chaotic to a fault, the embodiment of chaotic stupid. Not because they don't fill a niche.

In terms of turning gnomes into earth spirits, there is precedent for that. I've had gnomes be more like the gnomes from folklore, so basically fey. Just don't lose our life, the inner light that makes gnomes... well.. gnomes.

[Starbuck_II]

So it sounds like people would be more open to playing them if they were distinguished better from halflings?

That and war vs Kobolds.


I don't know what the halflings niche thing has to do with anything. For me, halflings have always been boring, pretty much hobbits with a penchant for thieving. Gnomes have life, they are exciting. I think people get annoyed by kender because they're destructively chaotic to a fault, the embodiment of chaotic stupid. Not because they don't fill a niche.

In terms of turning gnomes into earth spirits, there is precedent for that. I've had gnomes be more like the gnomes from folklore, so basically fey. Just don't lose our life, the inner light that makes gnomes... well.. gnomes.
Likely story for the gnome to dislike halfings.

But kender's issue is the source material says if yu dislike them, "you don't understand them" which is silly since they "stealing" your stuff.
They have a racial feature that causes hatred to them (aggro), but they are supposed to be liked. Very nonsensical.

I don't find the Gnome illusion/bard thing really fitting them. I find the Warcraft D20 crafter theme a better fit.

[Yora]

Actually, gnomes are a lot closer to hobbits than halflings are.

Halflings are good at throwing things and have a bonus to Stealth. All the other attributes of hobbits are found in gnomes.

But when I think of gnomes, I think of these guys:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ros_gallery/83303.jpg

http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/55105/90.jpg

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97164.jpg

Gnomes are a lot like dwarves that have overcome alchoholism, obesity, and racism.

And **** kender.

[otakumick]

I don't necessarily dislike gnomes(though a lot of my characters do). I do however thing that Garl Glittergold is a genocidal ****...

[CRtwenty]

I've never had a problem with Gnomes. Though I don't see them played very often. I've got a bit of a fondness for all the short races though.

[Greenish]

So pretty much, the people who hate them really just hate how they're a pranking nuisance filling a niche mostly filled by halflings?Who are these people who supposedly hate gnomes?

[avr]

Dunno about hate, but they don't have any real presence in fantasy literature outside that which itself originates with D&D. So there's a lot less inspiration available for characters, plots etc.

[Toy Killer]

One of my fondest characters was a gnome ranger name Guancho Paunch flitzflam 'Fumble Duck' tinker-tonk III. I read the description of gnomes naming customs and spent close to a week finding interesting and fun nonsensical things to say. I knew role-playing before (I've played D&D for close to 8 years at this point), but by the time his character sheet hit the table, he had a full mannerism and personality. He sincerely believed that druids were behind everything going on and had a pretty conservative mindset. He'd spit on his gloves before shaking someones hand. Good times...

Gnome punting, I believe, is a by-product of World of Warcraft and peoples hatred of trying to click the only tiny race in the game during PVP.

[JackRackham]

My group hates gnomes. They're just too silly to us (some of us, anyway). Personally, I always just felt if you had dwarves and halflings, then what do you need gnomes for? They kind of step on the others' toes.

[Svirfneblin]

I have a gnomish illusionist/tailor (or, when I played him in Pathfinder, wizard with illusion as a favored domain *sigh*). I include the tailor there because that was literally as important to his character - his craft (cloth) and craft (clothing) skills were by far his highest, above even his Knowledges. Also had an oddly high charisma score, and for SOME reason when I played him in AD&D he ended up with psionics.

Anyway, what I mean to say is that gnomes are lovely and I really don't understand why people would dislike them. Tolkein is super overdone

[TuggyNE]

Why does everyone hate gnomes and avoid them like the plague? Is it because they're just not a very good race or is it because of fluff?

Who is this "everyone" of whom you speak?

[Dr.Epic]

Why does everyone hate gnomes and avoid them like the plague? Is it because they're just not a very good race or is it because of fluff?

WHAT?!?!? I love the gnomes! They're awesome! Who hates the gnomes?!

[jedipilot24]

My group has hated gnomes ever since we met one that acted like Bill Cosby crossed with a Used Car Salesman. Seriously, Durkon had it easy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0138.html) compared to what we had to put up with.

It was a pretty weird campaign in general, complete with a time-travel mini-adventure at level 3 (I am not kidding), but the Gnome Armor Dealer was definitely one of our more memorable scenes.

[Gildedragon]

I do.
They, and halflings, creep the living bejesus out of me. Child sized people with adult proportions. No thanks. I've seen enough creepy medieval and renaissance babies. Kobolds are the only small race for me.

[GnomeGninjas]

I like gnomes. They're a great race for casters.

[Rhynn]

Why does everyone hate gnomes and avoid them like the plague? Is it because they're just not a very good race or is it because of fluff?

They're a bit boring in most editions, and silly in others.

In AD&D, gnomes were... ???? Dwarf-elf-halflings? They had dwarven magic resistance but were smaller and not as dwarfy. Okay... so why not just play a dwarf? If you wanted to be an illusionist, you played a gnome, maybe.

In Dragonlance, gnomestalkedlikethisandholyhecktheywereannoyingIca n'tthinkofanyplayerswhowouldn'tjustkillthemonsight butyouweren'tsupposedtobecausetheyare"cute".

In Spelljammer, they bred giant space hamsters. Okay...

4E actually helped a bit, making them fey creatures (playing up the old AD&D forest gnome angle).

In the end, though, gnomes are just sort of secretive, magical dwarves, and all their shticks are done better by dwarves, elves, or halflings.


I like Eberron gnomes more, though - especially combined with Arcanum's industrialist-financier gnomes, helped out by the existence of a gnome Dragonmarked house. Secretive, wealthy, cunning, businesslike... (Although it does rather skirt unfortunately close to some real-world racist stereotypes, in some ways.) Although, to be fair, "financial expert" is a legitimate use/meaning of the word "gnome", so it works out there...


b) They're not in Tolkein. I'm trying to bemoan the decline of Western Civilization over here.

Well, they almost were. The Noldor were supposed to be called gnomes (because Tolkien was a linguist, and that basically sounds like "the knowledgeable ones"...).

We probably dodged a bullet there.

[Daftendirekt]

Why does everyone hate gnomes and avoid them like the plague? Is it because they're just not a very good race or is it because of fluff?

My current character is a gnome, and I'm loving him. He's probably my favorite character to play thus far. He's a wizard, so he gets to be all intelligent and stuff, and his being a gnome is a good excuse for me to be silly and ridiculous sometimes while remaining IC.

Also, whisper gnomes are awesome.

[TuggyNE]

Well, they almost were. The Noldor were supposed to be called gnomes (because Tolkien was a linguist, and that basically sounds like "the knowledgeable ones"...).

We probably dodged a bullet there.

:smalleek: The horror! the horror!

[ArcturusV]

Well, not sure where Kender came from. Aren't they a Halfling variant rather than a Gnome Variant?

I think the problem with Gnomes, if there is a problem, is that they never really had a unique identity of their own. Cosmetically they are similar to Halflings. Lore wise they are similar to elves, and fill a similar niche in the Wise Nature Aligned types with Elves.

Combined with lack of clear identity in basic traits (Size/build is Halfling style, Culture and base powers is Elvish Lore), they often get suckered into this Mad Scientist Lore in a setting. Where Gnomes are always making Rube Goldberg style devices for no purpose other than because they can... which never work... and often make other "big" folk test subjects.

So... lack of clear roles. And a VERY niche role, which is made entirely for comedic effect and impossible to take seriously. That's the only reason why people wouldn't like them.

Course I do different things with Gnomes myself. Like in my last setting I made the Gnomes were the inheritors of the Old Empire, stewards and caretakers who maintain the last vestiges of the Old Empire.

[Seharvepernfan]

Why does everyone hate gnomes and avoid them like the plague? Is it because they're just not a very good race or is it because of fluff?

I don't hate them, and I feature them in my campaigns almost as prominently as orcs/hobgoblins/elves/dwarves. I even merged halfings into them.

[Hamsandwich]

In a setting I'm working on being a gnome is rumored to be like lycanthropy. If you get bit you become one.

[Rhynn]

Well, not sure where Kender came from. Aren't they a Halfling variant rather than a Gnome Variant?

Yup. In DL1, they're "halflings but you can taunt and also get a hoopak that is a club plus a sling".

[Vizzerdrix]

Gnomes tick me off to no end. Have a look at one. Hairy feet, portly waste, bulbous nose, and a head that is a bit too big for its body. They live in holes. You know what that sounds like to me? A Hobbit. Heck, they match the hobbit image better than the halflings do now a days.

First line of the gnome entry in the PHB "Gnomes are welcomed everywhere as technicians, alchemists, and inventors." None of their crunch fully backs this up. They are no better as inventors, in this defining race trait, than an orc. I'll admit that most of the phb races have this flaw but that shouldn't be an excuse for a dirt poor fluff/crunch mixing.

[Yora]

My group hates gnomes. They're just too silly to us (some of us, anyway). Personally, I always just felt if you had dwarves and halflings, then what do you need gnomes for? They kind of step on the others' toes.
And that's why I decided "Know what, let's scrap dwarves and halflings".
Dwarves are pretty much unsalvagable. They are racist alchoholics who are rude to everyone, and in almost all cases are also scottish vikings.
And halflings are all kleptomanic thieves, also not really that interesting. The Eberron dino-rider Halflings are different, but that really is a very radical break.

If I want to try something slightly different with the races, I take gnomes.

[ghost_warlock]

Among all the core races, gnomes and humans are the only ones I find tolerable. Well, half-elves are okay, but their crunch leaves a lot to be desired.

Plus, if you want a stealthy character, the best way to do it for under ECL2 is to slap the dark creature template on a whisper gnome. The two are practically made for each other. :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

I think it is mostly fluff hatred. People treat them as jokesters and tinkerers. I suppose I never had that problem because I grew up looking at magical nature gnomes. If you want to refluff them as such that wouldn't be a bad idea, but personally I don't see the "re" in that fluff.

Mechanically as said small size and a bonus to con is nice for almost any build. Even melee isn't too shabby because they have plenty of defense to compensate for the small amount of lost damage.

[Averis Vol]

My group didn't respect gnomes til I made an NPC Gnome hit squad, which consisted of a Gnomish warblade/dungeoncrasher fighter with battle jump, a whisper gnome unarmed swordsage/assassin who only used a gauntlet of the dwarven forge (Adds +1d6+10 fire damage on a touch, which I assume also means on an unarmed strike) and a chaos gnome sorcerer/shadowcraft mage. The party was walking through a cavern system, and the warblade was stone-melded into the ceiling, the shadow craft mage was invisible in a compost pile (thwarted the party warblades Scent ability) and the swordsage was hiding under an earth colored cloak, paired with darkstalker, the party couldn't find him. So, they take the surprise round; the warblade drops on the sorcerer, removing a significant chunk of health, from his concealed place within the ceiling, the shadowcraft mage threw a haste spell down, and the swordsage launched a death attack to paralyze the factotum.

(queue two rounds of frenzied action trying to get their proverbial **** together)

After two rounds and a few slight blows on the warblade, the three hightailed it further down the hallway, where they had laid more traps that didn't necessarily cripple the party, but inconvenienced them for a couple of rounds; more then enough time for the trio of killer gnomes to heal up and prepare more defenses in undying servitude to their homeland.

To this day my PC's show correct respect to Gnomes; they never caught the trio, but whenever they're in a gnomish settlement they hear stories of the brave three, supreme defenders of Blitsdelbar (Gnomish homeland). :smallbiggrin:

So, yea, I love those little buggers.

[Rhynn]

Oh, the heavily D&D-inspired (AD&D 1E specifically) CRPG about orcs, Natuk, has great gnomes...

They're horrible, blue-skinned, Papa Smurf -looking (red caps, white beards), rapidly babbling tiny bastards who wield crossbows and picks (both very lethal if they puncture your eye/skull), who are so good at hiding they're like 80% invisible, and who mine "spice" in their underground caverns. The orcs hate them and are fairly terrified of them...

[Answerer]

I rather like Kender. The prankster thing is overdone, but Kender aren't always like that, even in the books.

It's the same argument is it not ?

Neither Gnomes, nor Kender, need to be played as small annoyances.

There are other ways to play them. Even the prankster thing can work, but targeting the party is lame, well not all the time anyway. Taking out the antagonists in an amusing, or ironic, way can be fun.
False; the books portray Kender extremely one-dimensionally and never give them any other way to act. Any Kender who isn't not a jackass is by definition a subversion of his race. Gnomes are not portrayed that way; the prankster thing is only sometimes present and never taken as far as it is with Kender.

[nedz]

False; the books portray Kender extremely one-dimensionally and never give them any other way to act. Any Kender who isn't not a jackass is by definition a subversion of his race. Gnomes are not portrayed that way; the prankster thing is only sometimes present and never taken as far as it is with Kender.

Nope !

What you were complaining about is the racial stereotyping of Gnomes, which you then reiterated for Kender.

It is not subverting a race to play a character who is somewhat deeper than the racial stereotype suggests.

[Answerer]

It is when every single book printed about the Kender reinforces that stereotype, both in out-of-character descriptions and in-character examples. The same cannot be said of Gnomes.

[Phelix-Mu]

False; the books portray Kender extremely one-dimensionally and never give them any other way to act. Any Kender who isn't not a jackass is by definition a subversion of his race. Gnomes are not portrayed that way; the prankster thing is only sometimes present and never taken as far as it is with Kender.

Ah, then don't go by the books.

I too agree that the fluff in the racial descriptions block is more prescriptive than proscriptive. Some of the best characters that I've made are outcasts in their own society, or otherwise don't fit the racial stereotypes very well.

Kender, since 2e (which had a much more decent treatment of Dragonlance setting than what I've seen of 3e), have had a bit of a bad rep. However, this shouldn't derail using them effectively for certain thing. They suffer slightly in that the fluff suggests several types of behavior that people usually interpret as various flavors of mentally deranged. Still, if you give them the depth that any character deserves and don't overplay the typical behaviors, they can develop into memorable characters.

I would posit my kender cleric/rogue as a good example. Something of a freak to normal kender, he had decent Wisdom, and while he was often excessively tactile with others possessions, he did eventually learn about not actually stealing all the time, putting stuff back where he found it, even the enlightened "look, but don't touch." He mostly worked as a support combat role, buffing and then moving into a flanking position. While he was pretty sociable (in contrast with his drow friend), racial stereotype against halfling rogue-types and kender in particular, gave him trouble throughout his career. He gradually overcame these, and even became more resolved in his devotion to Yondalla, at epic levels even working to found a cathedral designed to bring worship of Yondalla to the kender that were imported into my setting. Much more relevant to role playing him than kender kleptomania was kender fearlessness (backed up by mechanics, unlike the kleptomania). Fearlessness is an interesting role play device, especially when taken to the extreme that kender often possess it (a deep lack of danger sense that is dwarfed by their burgeoning curiosity). While my kender was not as reckless as many of his kind, I did play him to have this fearless quality.

Back to the OP's topic, though, anti-gnome sentiment is largely exaggerated. They have had the least established role among the demihumans since way back, as in early incarnations of the game they were monsters, not a playable race. 2e gave them some flavor, but back then dwarves were basically allergic to arcane magic, so they were like short, arcane dwarves.

Anyone that invokes kobolds v gnomes for anti-gnome reasons needs a history lesson. Kobolds were little better than goblins for 80% of the history of the game, unless I'm forgetting some optional rules back then, and their dragon-flavor only actually started to impact their game role in 3e. Before Races of the Dragon and the mid-3.5 dragon craze began, 3e kobolds weren't that special either.

Even if some kobolds are now excellent character concepts, the racial enmity is entirely setting-based and religious, no more relevant to playing one race or the other than the elf v orc fluff. A given gnome or kobold will probably be slightly influenced by these prejudices if they grew up among typical examples of their kind, but no more so than any other character is locked into the beliefs of their native culture, which is to say not at all.

Gnomes in my setting are well-established, having a number of kingdoms of their own. How do they differ from halflings? Halflings tend to exist among other races, moving around as merchants, integrating into cities, or living in small communities amidst kingdoms ruled by the larger races. Some of this behavior by halfling is by choice, some is forced by circumstance.

Gnomes, in contrast, often have kingdoms of their own, if small ones, though they are mostly little more than a series of interconnected warrens. Gnomes have a greater proclivity to the kind of arcane spellcasting that lends itself to useful defenses, and gnomish crafters and inventors in particular add viability to the idea of a cohesive defensive posture. Add in their favored terrain types (typically mostly underground dwellings and mining, some stuff on the surface according to practicality), and gnomes are able to live in larger communities than the average halflings. I also give many gnomish communities a strong artisan tradition (often in more finesse trades such as gemcutting...2e gnomes had a very strong gem-loving flavor), which is in some degree absent among halflings generally.

In any case, even mechanically, gnomes are awesome. More hp, bonus to hit, bonus to AC. The only thing that suffers big is melee weapon damage, and since most damage in the long run comes from feats and magic weapons, this isn't a huge handicap. I am a confessed whisper gnome addict, as their flavor is rockzor and their mechanics are as awesome as is possible for +0 LA races.

[Eric Scott]

I don't hate gnomes... I just like to slaughter every gnome I see...

Gnomes serve only one purpose in my eyes... Beholder bait... and I'm not too fond of Beholders.

[JackRackham]

In a setting I'm working on being a gnome is rumored to be like lycanthropy. If you get bit you become one.

Damn, we need a 'like' button.

[Answerer]

Ah, then don't go by the books.

I too agree that the fluff in the racial descriptions block is more prescriptive than proscriptive. Some of the best characters that I've made are outcasts in their own society, or otherwise don't fit the racial stereotypes very well.
"I want to play a Kender just so I can defy the stereotypes and not play anything like any canonical Kender is supposed to act."

"...why are you a Kender then?"

There is literally no reason to involve the race. At best, it's a neutral thing, but the risk of it being awful is just way too high. There's nothing "interesting" about a Kender who isn't a rat-bastard, he's just a halfling. There's nothing "interesting" about a Kender who is a rat-bastard, either, for that matter. There's just no reason to ever use them.

[ArcturusV]

I believe that's the Drizzl mentality.

"I want to be a Lawful Good rebel against my entirely Chaotic Evil culture struggling for acceptance in a world that doesn't understand me, and even fears me!"

I've seen a lot of it... Lets just leave it at that...

[Mithril Leaf]

My current build (I'm saving this bad boy for a rainy day) is legally a gnome by birth inside an antimagic field after removing his assorted symbiotes. In general I'll either choose gnomes or kobolds for a game and stick to preference for them. I find kobolds to be overdone and not that great without some options that I'm not a fan of. Plus, Arctic Magic Blooded Wild Gnomes have -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha along with small size. It's damn near perfect for a wizard. There's also some sweet perks to being a gnome as far as substitution levels and such go.

[Starbuck_II]

"

There is literally no reason to involve the race. At best, it's a neutral thing, but the risk of it being awful is just way too high. There's nothing "interesting" about a Kender who isn't a rat-bastard, he's just a halfling. There's nothing "interesting" about a Kender who is a rat-bastard, either, for that matter. There's just no reason to ever use them.

There is mechanical reason:
1) racial taunt
2) Immune to fear
And one roleplay:
3) You like being innocent and full of hope

You just don't do the klepto thing because it is silly and stupid.

[Phelix-Mu]

"I want to play a Kender just so I can defy the stereotypes and not play anything like any canonical Kender is supposed to act."

"...why are you a Kender then?"

There is literally no reason to involve the race. At best, it's a neutral thing, but the risk of it being awful is just way too high. There's nothing "interesting" about a Kender who isn't a rat-bastard, he's just a halfling. There's nothing "interesting" about a Kender who is a rat-bastard, either, for that matter. There's just no reason to ever use them.

Right, I do follow this logic, but only so far.

"I want to play an atypical kender."

"Then why are you playing a kender?" (valid question)

"Maybe you weren't listening, I want to play a kender." (valid response)

As a DM, let players play what they want. As a fellow gamer in a group, feel free to make suggestions to friends, but people often do whatever they feel like, especially in a game where that is one of the big perks. As a person on a forum, suggest whatever you feel like, but be prepared to be ignored as often as listened to (such is the nature of the internet).

If your somewhat subjective view about playing a kender is valid, then so is mine. We differ, which is also fair; it's that kind of game.

More to the point, gnomes.

Gnomes have some awesome subrace choices.

[Urpriest]

I don't hate gnomes... I just like to slaughter every gnome I see...

Gnomes serve only one purpose in my eyes... Beholder bait... and I'm not too fond of Beholders.

See, the whole point of this thread is to try to understand where this attitude comes from. Can you offer any insight?

[lsfreak]

I dislike races that are ridiculously short, for one; four and a half feet is about the smallest I can get before I start getting distracted by things like how gnomes would require their own tables in human taverns, which is a level of fluff in itself that it going to be distracting in 95% of games, and things like how there's no way a gnome and a human could go toe-to-toe with equal training.

The other is the assumptions about gnomes. Not just the fluff in D&D, but everything that goes with it from other places. The primary problem is the combination of some measure of crazy + comic relief. It doesn't fit what I have in mind with gnomes; I'd agree with Yora's images - skilled, whether skilled in a particular art or skilled as a dabbler; friendly perhaps, and light-hearted with friends, but serious when the situation warrants; rather than a race of maniacal whimsy, something more like a bunch of people bored outside their element and prone to snark about it.

I don't think you can call them gnomes and get that, there's too much baggage that goes with the name. At the least it would take extraordinary effort. It's easier to strip the name and present them as something new, even if you're primarily just using the default fluff and all the default mechanics.

[tiercel]

I dislike races that are ridiculously short, for one; four and a half feet is about the smallest I can get before I start getting distracted by things like how gnomes would require their own tables in human taverns, which is a level of fluff in itself that it going to be distracting in 95% of games, and things like how there's no way a gnome and a human could go toe-to-toe with equal training.

I guess I'm not sure how someone could have a problem with the idea of having smaller furniture and/or rooms around (an idea that goes back to Tolkien, what with the Prancing Pony in Bree) but not have a problem with the idea that elves have an unspoken congenital learning disability for their first century of life, given that a 16-year-old human fighter 1 and 116-year-old elven fighter 1 are equally skilled. Never mind that very often fluff for elves include the idea that elven civilization predates human civilization, usually by centuries (sometimes having individual elves outdating extant human civilizations) yet outclasses humans only in sheer arrogance.

And if we want to talk "short race stereotypes," why should halflings come off better than gnomes, given that halflings come in "chubby Tolkien hairy-bare-feet" flavor, kender flavor (the less said the better), or "Lidda is totally hawt while being the size of a human child, no subtext here" flavor?

Dwarves are great and all mechanically but...

Beard? Check.
Axe? Check.
Quaffing beer? Check.
Scot? Aye, laddie. (Mix in Viking and/or Russian to taste for extra dourness or mishmash of a "dwarven accent.")
Harder worker than you? Check.
Needs to get out more? Check.
Jokes about dwarven women? Check.

So yeah, gnomes have gotten some bad stereotype action too (annoying prankster, idiotic Dragonlance motormouths with a Rube Goldberg fetish, or those creepy pointed-red-cap figurines that your grandmother breaks out in around the same time she gets 20 cats), but I'm not sure why they would actually fare any worse than any other race in terms of "I just can't stand this race."

[Eric Scott]

See, the whole point of this thread is to try to understand where this attitude comes from. Can you offer any insight?

I've never met a gnome who didn't try to mess with me whether it be in actual combat or just being a tricky little bastard...

I suppose it is mainly from the fluff stand point for me. I just can't trust them as far as I can throw them... I also am not very trusting of several other races but, that's not what this thread is about.

[mistformsquirrl]

I like gnomes myself - a lot better than halflings. To be fair this is precisely BECAUSE of the whole "tinkerer/Rube Goldberg gadget" type thing. I know it's not for everyone, but me? I love it.

The only reason I usually don't play gnomes is because about 90% of the time I play a martial class of some kind, and since I like my gnomes to be tinkerers and thinkers... well getting bashed upside the head for a living doesn't fit the image I prefer.

Just personal preference of course.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Scot? Aye, laddie. (Mix in Viking and/or Russian to taste for extra dourness or mishmash of a "dwarven accent.")


Personally I like to add some German to my Dwarves and throw in some "Superior Dwarven Engineering". I know this can step on Gnomish toes a bit, but I kinda see Dwarves making big practical things and making them very well/sturdily, while Gnomes Innovate, miniaturize, automate and make things that are novel/Rube Goldberg.


Now that I think of it this makes Gnomes kind of like modern Japan including the internet's "Oh Japan, you so crazy!" stereotype.

[mistformsquirrl]

So you're saying Gnomes invented Muscle March? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hcElGydzb8) It all makes sense now <O.O>

[Deepbluediver]

Why does everyone hate gnomes and avoid them like the plague? Is it because they're just not a very good race or is it because of fluff?

Mechanically, they're racial traits are pretty ho-hum, at best. That doesn't make them bad though, lots of other races (including core races) are pretty mediocre.

My biggest issue was always the fluff. Both gnomes and halflings are supposed to be small dexterous, tricky, happy-go-lucky underground living races. In otherwise, the only real difference is pretty in the name.

Since halfings had more historical support and literary history, people tended to go with them.


Personally, I prefer revamping the gnome fluff entirely, and use the gnomes as presented in Elizabeth Moon's The Deed of Paksenarrion novel (and sequels).
Her gnomes are basically neither good nor evil, but lawful to the extreme. They are very formal and don't do jokes, they are not tricksters, and they pretty much live by schedules, rules, and regulations. They don't understand what doing some one a "favor" means because everything is fair trade and an eye for an eye, and are the kind of race that would complain the U.S. tax code, (all 8000+ pages of it) isn't specific enough.

You wouldn't necessarily need to play every PC gnome like this, but with the plethora of more chaotic-leaning races in D&D, I think that gnomish society would make a good contrast. And it would certainly help differentiate them from halflings.

[ArcturusV]

Or rather Gnomes like the Gnomes from Arcana: Steamworks and Magic. The Gnomes there are seen as helpless little harmless guys who happen to be good merchants and made good investments in the occasional half-ogre bodyguards.

The truth being they are a Lawful Evil style race. They are the mafia behind the scenes, have their fingers in every pie. Heck, the fact that Half-Ogres exist as a race (instead of just a few freak individuals) is because they are kidnapping human women for a half-ogre breeding facility and such, just so they can have large, stupid, easily controlled and very tough bodyguards to enforce their will...

[Starbuck_II]

And if we want to talk "short race stereotypes," why should halflings come off better than gnomes, given that halflings come in "chubby Tolkien hairy-bare-feet" flavor, kender flavor (the less said the better), or "Lidda is totally hawt while being the size of a human child, no subtext here" flavor?


Well, Lidda was pretty hawt EM I right? I was never into Tolkien chubby halfings.
All halfings have hairy bare feet. I got it too (far down my lineage).

That might be why I like halfings they feel like home. :smalltongue:

[MukkTB]

Well gnomes aren't really compelling mechanically. Small + Con Bonus is about it. That means they don't often get mentioned in guides. I think the last handbook I read that recommended using a gnome was for mounted characters.

Then there's the problem of gnomes and halflings occupying nearly the same niche. Then there's the problem of gnomes as magical technicians. That comes with a flavor that does not always complement a D&D campaign.

[Answerer]

Mechanically, they're racial traits are pretty ho-hum, at best. That doesn't make them bad though, lots of other races (including core races) are pretty mediocre.
Well gnomes aren't really compelling mechanically. Small + Con Bonus is about it.
Uhhh... Small + Con bonus is one of the best set of racial traits in the game. It's no Bonus Feat, but +Con is the best ability score bonus in the game, and anyone who's non-melee (and even some who are) can make great use of Small size. And the bonus to Illusion casting is nice even if you aren't a Killer Gnome.

[Baroncognito]

and anyone who's non-melee (and even some who are) can make great use of Small size.

Small isn't the problem for anyone who wants to do melee with a Gnome or Halfling, it's the -2 str.

Sure, you can make agility based fighters, but it requires more feats.

[Answerer]

Small isn't the problem for anyone who wants to do melee with a Gnome or Halfling, it's the -2 str.

Sure, you can make agility based fighters, but it requires more feats.
Eh, -2 Str can be overcome too. Particularly if we take Tome of Battle as the norm rather than Player's Handbook, where both feats and ability scores are reduced somewhat in their value since you have maneuvers now, it's not exactly a deal-breaker.

You do have to build for it, though, I agree, which is why I said some melee characters. Most melee characters, yes, are not going to want Small size or a Strength penalty.

[erikun]

I happen to really like gnomes; they are one of my favorite demi-human races. A lot of times I hear that they "don't have a racial identity" but for me, not forcing the entire race into a narrow stereotype help make them feel more realistic. They tend to be inquisitive and curious, and they have their own scholars, arcanists, clergy, alchemists, travelers, rangers, gem-cutters, fighters, rogues, philosophers, and diplomats. The fact that the race in general tends to appeal to me - smart, inquisitive, magical, ingenuitive - pretty well reinforces my like of the race.

Some may say "but you can get all that with the elves" except that elves are very poor at being a smart magical race. Heck, they're pretty poor at surviving by themselves in a forest, which gnomes excel at.


Small isn't the problem for anyone who wants to do melee with a Gnome or Halfling, it's the -2 str.

Sure, you can make agility based fighters, but it requires more feats.
I have found the 15-foot movement speed in medium/heavy armor to be a far bigger limitation for a melee fighter. The equilivant of -1 damage is pretty much easy to ignore.

[Baroncognito]

I have found the 15-foot movement speed in medium/heavy armor to be a far bigger limitation for a melee fighter. The equilivant of -1 damage is pretty much easy to ignore.

I keep forgetting about that. I play a Halfling Ranger in pathfinder and took the racial ability that gives me a 30 foot move speed, and I've only ever worn light armour and medium armour that counted as light for the purposes of calculating move speed.

[Answerer]

There are lots of ways around that anyway. I mean, sticking with a Chain Shirt rather than Full-plate is not likely to ruin you or anything.

[Edenbeast]

I don't like Kender, Hobbits are OK. But since Dark Sun, I'm a big fan of Halflings. And I think Gnomes provide decent meat, but not enough for a large family.

[erikun]

There are lots of ways around that anyway. I mean, sticking with a Chain Shirt rather than Full-plate is not likely to ruin you or anything.
You must have an odd group if losing 4 AC at first/second level is no concern.

[Deepbluediver]

I don't like Kender, Hobbits are OK. But since Dark Sun, I'm a big fan of Halflings. And I think Gnomes provide decent meat, but not enough for a large family.

My biggest issue with Kender was the way their fluff/backstory was presented. I mean, dragons are well known for their love of hoarding, but everyone thinks they are just the bees-knees.

But for the Kender, I felt that it was like: here's this race of incredibly annoying kleptomaniacs, but they mean well and are just so gosh-darned adorable they no one can stay mad at them for long and if you don't love these little bundles of joy then you are a terrible TERRIBLE person for it!


And most player's inherent response is: first, stop trying to dictate how I roleplay my character, and second I don't give 2 farts how noble you SAY they are, no one but NO ONE gets a pass on stealing MY treasure, I don't care if they're a goblin or a solar or Asmodeus himself. So take your Kender and piss off.

But maybe that was just me.



And for your other problem, I think the issue is you're going after wild gnomes. The farm-raised ones are much more tender, IMO, and they fatten up nicely. :smallbiggrin:

[Baroncognito]

You must have an odd group if losing 4 AC at first/second level is no concern.

I never had a character that could afford half-plate at first/second level.

[lsfreak]

I guess I'm not sure how someone could have a problem with the idea of having smaller furniture and/or rooms around (an idea that goes back to Tolkien, what with the Prancing Pony in Bree) but not have a problem with the idea that elves have an unspoken congenital learning disability for their first century of life, given that a 16-year-old human fighter 1 and 116-year-old elven fighter 1 are equally skilled.
I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. I have a problem with that too (elves live to 120-150, but often commit ritual suicide earlier to keep the soul from withering in a dying body). I have a problem with all the major races, for one thing or another, and refluff them to suit my view.


So yeah, gnomes have gotten some bad stereotype action too (annoying prankster, idiotic Dragonlance motormouths with a Rube Goldberg fetish, or those creepy pointed-red-cap figurines that your grandmother breaks out in around the same time she gets 20 cats), but I'm not sure why they would actually fare any worse than any other race in terms of "I just can't stand this race."
The big difference is that I think the stereotypes that go with gnomes are not merely annoying, but can easily damage the overall feel or tone of a game. You can change the fluff that goes with elves and dwarves and a number of others quite a bit and people buy it, but in my experience, at least, it's much harder to get new fluff for gnomes without the old picture of comical halfpints creeping into the picture.

[Calmar]

To me there's no point to gnomes. If I want a short race inclined towards artifice, I have dwarves. If I want a short race that loves a homely life and is rather in touch with nature, I have halflings.

4E makes them fey, but at the end of the day they are just another race of somewhat generic action heroes in that edition. (< my subjective opinion)

[Clistenes]

As I said in another thread:


You know, I've realized I hate 90% of the "good races": The thieving faerunian haflings, the cleptomaniac kenders, the demented tinker gnomes, the prankster rock gnomes, the flatterer (kalamarian) forest gnomes, the aloof, vain elves, the emo Tanis-like half-elves, the even emoer Drizzt-like renegade drows...

The planetouched are like meh...

Dwarves are generally O.K., and I can probably tolerate those moth*******ng bastards, the humans, only because I am human.

Now that I think about it, I usually only play humans...

I'm a fantasy racist.


I'm OK with the short races (and with the other races) as long as they don't make them annoying or a joke.

I like the concept of the halflings as honest, good, hardworking country people with a core of steel; I'm OK with them being nomads (boats or wagons, I don't care) too...what I don't like is when they try to make them all natural thieves just because the rogue class is the one that fits them better. Not every race need to be 100% identified with a class, sometimes the race can be just background, like being from Perrenland or Almor or Tethyr or Amn.

As for the gnomes, what is with the prankter thing? Everybody I know hates that. It's as if they were purposelly trying to make the race dislikable! Couldn't the gnomes be left as a race of brainy, peaceful, nature loving artificers and mages? The elves already fill the role of the nature-loving mages, I know, but many people dislike elves because they are often so aloof, vain, arrogant...etc., so there is a niche for the gnome race there.

[Answerer]

You must have an odd group if losing 4 AC at first/second level is no concern.

I never had a character that could afford half-plate at first/second level.
Wow, swordsaged on a question specifically directed to me. Impressive!

[Madara]

In Ebberon, probably one of the coolest Nations is the Gnomish one. Indeed, I think the problem with gnomes comes from their setting. I for one find them perfect for the type of characters I enjoy. Optimization wise, they come with a nice +2 Con and small size, which works well for almost any build. I just happen to ignore ALL of the prankster fluff and make my character. For me, the race doesn't make the character, in fact probably the few things I get from the race is naming(from RoS) and PrCs. Other than that, I look at abilities and ask "With these natural talents, what would a Gnome do?"

The problem(if there is one) isn't with the race, but with the setting's portrayal. On the bright side, they don't suffer the same fate as Goblins.

[nedz]

And for your other problem, I think the issue is you're going after wild gnomes. The farm-raised ones are much more tender, IMO, and they fatten up nicely. :smallbiggrin:

No, no, no — the Garden ones are the ones you want. They are much easier to catch and have already been fattened up for you.

[Starbuck_II]

4E makes them fey, but at the end of the day they are just another race of somewhat generic action heroes in that edition. (< my subjective opinion)

4E version rocks, they have a lair and a minion badger named Francis. They fought Demogorgon and lived to talk about it.

[ericgrau]

I have found the 15-foot movement speed in medium/heavy armor to be a far bigger limitation for a melee fighter. The equilivant of -1 damage is pretty much easy to ignore.

I wouldn't use a chain shirt, except before I could afford full plate, but there are other ways around the loss of speed. Boots of striding and springing and longstrider in core, and outside of core there are speed boosting feats. Even in basic psionics. But assuming you're waiting until level 4-6 to do it the core way, (a) that's where many campaigns start anyway and (b) you can manage for a couple levels or so. A lot of the time melee only needs to take point and hold that position, and let foes charge in, while the casters and range take it from there. Especially, but not only, if you have a reach weapon. Or by the time you drop the front foe another is within 15 feet, if not adjacent. Or you charge, or you use a backup ranged weapon like a sling, etc.

It's not nothing at first, but it's tolerable at first and later it is practically nothing.

[North_Ranger]

Personally, I enjoy Pathfinder's take on the gnomes. Because they were originally refugees from the fae world, gnomes are quirky and curious, much like the more benevolent fae creatures. They also physically require new things to explore and experience, as a gnome who falls victim to the every-day doldrum and apathy suffers a condition called Bleaching, which is essentially premature aging and loss of mental faculties. As long as a gnome has something new to try and do, she can look forward to living to a ripe old age.

Plus, they like hats. You can't hate a race that loves flamboyant headgear.

[tiercel]

The big difference is that I think the stereotypes that go with gnomes are not merely annoying, but can easily damage the overall feel or tone of a game. You can change the fluff that goes with elves and dwarves and a number of others quite a bit and people buy it, but in my experience, at least, it's much harder to get new fluff for gnomes without the old picture of comical halfpints creeping into the picture.

I guess this is what I see as being odd; it seems to me that gnome stereotypes are LESS ingrained in fantasy lore in general than those of, say, elves or dwarves (open any fantasy tome that contains either and you are far more likely than not to find a supercilious, elfier-than-thou Ancient Race which is curiously unadvanced compared to other races and a race of bearded Gruffy McGruffaxebeards hammering away in their forges).

Thus, I would think it would be EASIER to refluff the whole "hur hur, those wacky prankster gnomes" thing; I don't know, some memes seem curiously durable in the absence of a powerful singular counterexample ("you spoony bard" comes to mind, even though bards are actually pretty awesome).

[lsfreak]

I think elves and dwarves are so common that subversions aren't really something to bat your eyelashes at anymore. A Tolkien-esque ideal is as common as something completely unexpected (Dragon Age's ghetto-elves, Elder Scrolls' steampunk dwarves-that-are-elves, Warcraft's drug-PSA-gone-wrong elves, as three examples). Dwarves are more limited than elves. But gnomes are even more limited, being common enough to have expectations go with them, but lacking the overdone-ness that lets you completely break those expectations.

It may also be the people I've played with are just weird, though.

[SirKibble]

a) They're often played as comic relief doofi messing with strange inventions or composing limericks; kinda grating.

b) They're not in Tolkein. I'm trying to bemoan the decline of Western Civilization over here.

c) How many "short races" do we need?


there is only 3. if we are exclusivly looking at the player handbook. but while we are looking at said book. how many medium large races do we need? in the end its all what you classify as short. gnomes have there purpose and that says more than some of the medium or larger playable races *cough* fey creatures from elemental evil companion book *cough*

ps. there is such thing as badass gnomes. have you ever seen a gnome wizard? not the cute thing you expect. :smallcool:

[nedz]

I've seen plenty of bad-ass Gnomes.

Also, thread necromancy.

[Yahzi]

Gnomes are cute.

A lot of old groganards don't like cute in their Serious Dramatic Adventure. (I should know, I'm one of them! :smallbiggrin: Even halflings are... dubious.)

[SirKibble]

I personly dont see why ppl dislike them either. my friend (who plays halfling) and his broth (who plays dwarf) hat gnomes with a passion. kinda ironic i know. they say gnomes are too silly. my solution to that is "badass upbringing" ex:the gnome was raised by dwarves. boom instant badass. you can have it that he is often ruffed up and picked on in the dwarven society until he finnaly starts addapting. bulcking up. congratulations. you now got a gnome with a badass backstory AND a different attitude/personality.:smallbiggrin: