Whats the best full BAB progession class?

[Immabozo]

I need 5 BAB for my PrC (War Hulk), what is the best choice for full BAB classes?

[Invader]

I need 5 BAB for my PrC (War Hulk), what is the best choice for full BAB classes?

I would imagine straight fighter for the bonus feats?

[Qc Storm]

Warblade?

I imagine Sudden Leap with War Hulk could be powerful, considering how reliant you are on full round actions.

Plus things like Wall of Blades and such could always be useful with your skyhigh attack bonus.

[Immabozo]

Warblade?

I imagine Sudden Leap with War Hulk could be powerful, considering how reliant you are on full round actions.

Plus things like Wall of Blades and such could always be useful with your skyhigh attack bonus.

What book is warblade in?

[TheAmazingOP]

What book is warblade in?

Tome of Battle

[Story]

Tome of Battle: The Book Of Tier Threes

Crusader is another full BAB class from the same book that could work, hough Warblade is more fighter flavored.


Edit: Swordsage'd, appropriately enough for the topic (Though unfortunately they're only 3/4s BAB)

[Eloel]

I would imagine straight fighter for the bonus feats?

No. Just no. 4 levels fighter + 1 level something else I can understand. 5th level of fighter? Please... I'm aware that you most probably didn't intend to mean Fighter5. Still it looks like that, and it makes my head hurt. Sorry.

[Barsoom]

Fighter 2 / Barbarian 2 / Warblade 1 (2 bonus feats, rage & totem powers, 2nd level maneuevers)

Or Warblade 5 (3rd level maneuvers)

Those are basically the options

[Story]

What totem powers are you talking about? You only need one level of Barbarian for Spirit Totem: Lion.

[Greenish]

What totem powers are you talking about? You only need one level of Barbarian for Spirit Totem: Lion.Wolf for trip, I should think.

[TypoNinja]

If you are short on feats (that can be taken as fighter bonus feats) 4 fighter 1 lion totem barbo is probably the most straightforward answer.

One level of Ranger could get you Track and a Favored enemy.

5 levels of paladin gets you spells (among other goodies) which would allow you to use wands of paladin spells. Ranger has similar benefits.

Just about anything from ToB (don't actually have it) is probably better for dips than anything but the Totem Barbo, just because that's the only book where they started trying to give melee nice things.

[SowZ]

Fighter 2/Barb 1 (Preferably Whirling Frenzy/Spirit Lion Totem)/Warblade 2

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2

Unless you are going Hulking Hurler, go back into Warblade. If you grab Hulking Hurler, you will still have 9 levels of Warblade, (which is a decent level since it gives you an extra feat.) If you aren't grabbing Hulking Hurler, well, don't get level 12 of Warblade. It doesn't give you anything. Take a 1 level dip in something else.

[Soranar]

Really depends on what you're doing with the build though.

For example, this build benefits the most from a monk dip

Race: Half-Ogre (LA 2 but it's the best option to enter warhulk as far as I know)

ACF

Decisive strike monk (found in PH2)

Progression

1 Monk Power Attack, bonus feat: combat expert
2 Monk bonus feat: improved trip
3 Fighter polearm master: guisarme bonus feat: blindfight
4 Fighter bonus feat: mage slayer
5 Warblade
6 Warblade cleave
7+ Warhulk

note: decisive strike works in full plate (since the text doesn't say otherwise, unlike flurry of blows)

note: eventually you want to dip 2 levels of crusader to earn thicket of blades (you could delay entry into warhulk to do this or spend 2 feats on getting it through martial study and martial stance)

result : being large gives you 10 ft reach, reach weapon doubles your reach

-you threaten AoO on any movement and on spellcasting
-your trip modifier is quite impressive (very high STR, +4 from size, + 4 from improved trip)
-your BAB is irrelevant as a warhulk anyway and now you get the most out of it with decisive strike: face 1 tough creature, decisive strike, face several scattered creatures, decisive strike, face bunched up creatures, warhulk sweep
-since decisive strike is a full round action you can use sudden leap (from warblade) to move around the battlefield a little , that or you can always do a 5 ft step

[kardar233]

I would suggest delaying your War Hulk progression a level to pick up six levels of Dungeoncrasher Fighter. It synergizes beautifully with War Hulk, as with your increased size you've got the reach to dish out AoOs, can pick up Knockback and slam people around plus it scales well with pure strength.

[Soranar]

If you are going the dungeoncrasher route, by all means take the dragonborn of bahamut template. You can take the wings aspect and crash your opponents into the ground as you literally drop from the sky on them.

[Curmudgeon]

If you are going the dungeoncrasher route, by all means take the dragonborn of bahamut template. You can take the wings aspect and crash your opponents into the ground as you literally drop from the sky on them.
Only with special dispensation from a generous DM.
In addition, you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal.
The ground and other terrain features don't qualify as D&D objects.
Bull Rush

You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. And, of course, straight back is definitely not down.

[Spuddles]

Really depends on what you're doing with the build though.

For example, this build benefits the most from a monk dip

Race: Half-Ogre (LA 2 but it's the best option to enter warhulk as far as I know)

ACF

Decisive strike monk (found in PH2)

Progression

1 Monk Power Attack, bonus feat: combat expert
2 Monk bonus feat: improved trip
3 Fighter polearm master: guisarme bonus feat: blindfight
4 Fighter bonus feat: mage slayer
5 Warblade
6 Warblade cleave
7+ Warhulk

note: decisive strike works in full plate (since the text doesn't say otherwise, unlike flurry of blows)

note: eventually you want to dip 2 levels of crusader to earn thicket of blades (you could delay entry into warhulk to do this or spend 2 feats on getting it through martial study and martial stance)

result : being large gives you 10 ft reach, reach weapon doubles your reach

-you threaten AoO on any movement and on spellcasting
-your trip modifier is quite impressive (very high STR, +4 from size, + 4 from improved trip)
-your BAB is irrelevant as a warhulk anyway and now you get the most out of it with decisive strike: face 1 tough creature, decisive strike, face several scattered creatures, decisive strike, face bunched up creatures, warhulk sweep
-since decisive strike is a full round action you can use sudden leap (from warblade) to move around the battlefield a little , that or you can always do a 5 ft step

2 levels of whirling frenzy spirit lion & wolf totem gets you improved trip, pounce, and a rage that gives you an extra attack and ac instead of con. It is pretty much the premier two level dip for almost any melee build.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

2 levels of whirling frenzy spirit lion & wolf totem gets you improved trip, pounce, and a rage that gives you an extra attack and ac instead of con. It is pretty much the premier two level dip for almost any melee build.

Monk 2 would be almost perfect if it had full BAB. You get good saves, 2 bonus feats from a very wide selection (like any fighter feat :smallwink:), a good skill selection, and you can trade Evasion for the Invisible Fist ACF in Exemplars of Evil (pg. 21) to get invisibility every 4th round.

[Immabozo]

All good suggestions. I ended up going Half Ogre (LA2) Barbie 5/War Hulk 1 (starting out at 8) . My friend had his truck towed, so I gave him a ride and by the time I got back, I had little time to make my character

[Gandariel]

you could go Goliath (or any other Large +1LA race) Cleric 9/War hulk.
Persist the buffs you need (like the BAB one) and smash people!

[Thiyr]

The ground and other terrain features don't qualify as D&D objects.

And, of course, straight back is definitely not down.

two points, in reverse order. First, straight back is not down, I agree. Straight back when above an opponent, however, is, from a traditional viewpoint, down. If I am hovering in the air above you, what other direction could you move that would be considered straight back if not firmly into the ground?

Second, in regards to the ground not being considered an object, it seems to be equally as much an object by game-standards as a wall (it says "or other", not "or", implying that a wall is an object), unless I missed a definition of object somewhere in the rules. Also, amusingly, it doesn't state that the object must be immobile, of a certain size, or really anything other than it being solid. Bull rush you into a plate-wearing ally? That armor is solid by every definition I can find, so it should work. That random low-hanging dime-sized rock-on-a-string? Solid enough for shatter, solid enough for dungeoncrasher! That ricepaper wall in your OA game? Heck, that's a wall, no question about it, doesn't even need to be solid, slap that damage on! Clearly against the intent? Yes, but a solid floor not being a solid object valid for dungeoncrasher when in comparison to a wall seems equally against logic, if not intent (I don't think anyone thought about flying bullrushes when designing that ability, so intent can't really be judged, but it seems to follow logically. As much as hitting them into a grown tree would follow, and that DOES seem to be intent)

[limejuicepowder]

The ground and other terrain features don't qualify as D&D objects. And, of course, straight back is definitely not down.

Where are you getting that the ground doesn't count as an object? It still feels pretty hard when falling, for instance (both in game and out). And if terrain features don't count as solid objects, dungeoncrasher is almost impossible to use.

Straight back is obviously from the point of view of the rusher, not the rush-ee. Otherwise your opponent would have to be perfectly facing you to rush them - from the sides or back would not be allowed, as they would not be moving "back" at that point.

[Killer Angel]

I would imagine straight fighter for the bonus feats?

For that, you only need the first 2 levels.
1 lev. dip in barbarian will let you take rage and fast movement.

[Soranar]

Normally I'd never argue against dipping barbarian for lion totem but, on a warhulk, it's really not that impressive

a warhulk doesn't gain BAB, which means you pretty much have a single attack unless you're in a whirling frenzy or hasted

which is also why a dungeoncrasher warhulk is so impressive since it maximizes your damage through your strength

same goes for my monk AoO build

same goes for the hulking hurler build

and there's a bullrushing build called the flaming homer of doom or something that's probably going to get the book thrown at you but it's quite effective too

[limejuicepowder]

Normally I'd never argue against dipping barbarian for lion totem but, on a warhulk, it's really not that impressive

a warhulk doesn't gain BAB, which means you pretty much have a single attack unless you're in a whirling frenzy or hasted

which is also why a dungeoncrasher warhulk is so impressive since it maximizes your damage through your strength

same goes for my monk AoO build

same goes for the hulking hurler build

and there's a bullrushing build called the flaming homer of doom or something that's probably going to get the book thrown at you but it's quite effective too

That's why it a good idea to hold off and take the first warhulk level at 7th. Bab +6 with whirling frenzy and pounce means 3(!) mighty swings when charging, plus cleaves. When you get the massive swing, you are going to make an almost perfect circle of death when charging - everything within reach will die in 1 round.

It also gives you more options when facing a single opponent before you get might swing at warhulk 4.

[Immabozo]

That's why it a good idea to hold off and take the first warhulk level at 7th. Bab +6 with whirling frenzy and pounce means 3(!) mighty swings when charging, plus cleaves. When you get the massive swing, you are going to make an almost perfect circle of death when charging - everything within reach will die in 1 round.

It also gives you more options when facing a single opponent before you get might swing at warhulk 4.

Where can I find the whirrling frenzy ACF?

[SowZ]

Where can I find the whirrling frenzy ACF?

Don't need to, it is in the SRD. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm

[Immabozo]

Don't need to, it is in the SRD. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm

You rock way hardcore, thank you

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

For what it's worth, I'd rather use Half-Minotaur if it's allowed.

[SowZ]

You rock way hardcore, thank you

No problemo.

Another good War Hulk build is Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barb. 1/Cleric 9/War Hulk 10. If you know about the Divine Metamagic Persistent spell build to get your buffs up for 48 hours at a time, you can keep up Valiant Fury, (+4 morale Str/Con and a bonus attack,) Righteous Might, (+4 Str, increase size to take best advantage of your level 10 War Hulk ability,) and Divine Power, (+6 Str, Full BAB,) you will be rocking at least 60 Str. with 6 attacks.

Pretty cheesy, though, and likely OP unless your group is high OP, so maybe you shouldn't do that.

[Immabozo]

No problemo.

Another good War Hulk build is Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barb. 1/Cleric 9/War Hulk 10. If you know about the Divine Metamagic Persistent spell build to get your buffs up for 48 hours at a time, you can keep up Valiant Fury, (+4 morale Str/Con and a bonus attack,) Righteous Might, (+4 Str, increase size to take best advantage of your level 10 War Hulk ability,) and Divine Power, (+6 Str, Full BAB,) you will be rocking at least 60 Str. with 6 attacks.

Pretty cheesy, though, and likely OP unless your group is high OP, so maybe you shouldn't do that.

Our party does have an NPC paladin with us that, in the DM's own words "is not supposed to be with you" and he is minimum level 15. But we have this hilarious gnome with us that managed to remove the reason for his leave from our company (bluffing the enemy into giving us a group of 15 of their most powerful and stupid barbarians, instead of the paladin going for backup) and then we used them to attack the mountain fortress.

It was glorious. But there is now an NPC to outshine, so no worries there!


For what it's worth, I'd rather use Half-Minotaur if it's allowed.

problem with this is 1, its homebrew (I think) and two, it's medium

[Story]

It's Dragon magazine, not homebrew IIRC.

[Spuddles]

problem with this is 1, its homebrew (I think) and two, it's medium

It's actually from DR 313 and turns a medium creature into a large. The best part is that you get all the bonuses in str/ac/con from changing size AND the racial bonuses.

How would you like +12 str, +6 con, -2 dex, -2 int, +2 wis, +4 NA, large size, scent, and a gore attack (can be made as secondary attack at -5) all for the low, low price of +1 LA? Goes well on water orc (+4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 cha, swim speed).

[Answerer]

But it's not full-BAB, because it has LA +1. LA doesn't give any BAB. He needs BAB for prerequisites, if I understand correctly.

[Immabozo]

But it's not full-BAB, because it has LA +1. LA doesn't give any BAB. He needs BAB for prerequisites, if I understand correctly.

True, but but I must have large size for a prereq too, so a LA is mandatory. I dont think Dragon Mag is allowed, since its not official material, unfortunately, but it does sound awesome!

So far my half ogre is awesome. But what should I make the other half? Is that water orc the best? Con and dex would be nice, the PrC gives my tons of str

[Spuddles]

But it's not full-BAB, because it has LA +1. LA doesn't give any BAB. He needs BAB for prerequisites, if I understand correctly.

But he also needs large size or powerful build, which cost minimum +1 LA to begin with.

[Immabozo]

But he also needs large size or powerful build, which cost minimum +1 LA to begin with.

Also, reach for a War Hulk is so good, it should be illegal. I am considering half changling half ogre so that I can take War Shaper for another +5 feet reach and some other goodies. Actually, I have an amazing idea with that...

EDIT: nope, war shaper is not full BAB progression. FML

2nd EDIT: Also, the change self ability will have great RP value, especially in this world were non-humans experience prejudice and racism.

[Spuddles]

Also, reach for a War Hulk is so good, it should be illegal. I am considering half changling half ogre so that I can take War Shaper for another +5 feet reach and some other goodies. Actually, I have an amazing idea with that...

EDIT: nope, war shaper is not full BAB progression. FML

2nd EDIT: Also, the change self ability will have great RP value, especially in this world were non-humans experience prejudice and racism.

Where are you getting half-ogre template? The only half ogre template I know of is from the same DR as Half minotaur, otherwise it's a race, either from savage species or updated in races of destiny. In either case, you don't get any other "half".

[mattie_p]

It's Dragon magazine, not homebrew IIRC.

Most people on this board (myself included) believe that Dragon Magazine = Homebrew.


It's actually from DR 313 and turns a medium creature into a large. The best part is that you get all the bonuses in str/ac/con from changing size AND the racial bonuses.

...


How would you like +12 str, +6 con, -2 dex, -2 int, +2 wis, +4 NA, large size, scent, and a gore attack (can be made as secondary attack at -5) all for the low, low price of +1 LA? Goes well on water orc (+4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 cha, swim speed).

Please read the above. If a player came into a game and asked to introduce the above template/race as "homebrew" for +1 LA, how would you answer? So because it is published in Dragon Homebrew magazine, it suddenly becomes acceptable?

[Story]

Please read the above. If a player came into a game and asked to introduce the above template/race as "homebrew" for +1 LA, how would you answer? So because it is published in Dragon Homebrew magazine, it suddenly becomes acceptable?

You could say the same about Incantrix. While Dragon Magazine does tend to be more unbalanced than published books, it is by no means a sharp line that would merit the description of "homebrew".

You should ban things based on balance, not based on where they came from. Remember, Core is probably the most unbalanced material in 3.5ed.

[Answerer]

Most people on this board (myself included) believe that Dragon Magazine = Homebrew.
Third party material, perhaps. But homebrew? I've literally never heard it called that before.

[Shining Wrath]

As it turns out, I just went through an exercise of searching for all the "fighter-type" base classes for a new 3.5 player.

Classes with full BAB and martial weapons are as follows

Class HD Armor Shields Fort Reflex Will
Barbarian 12 Med Heavy Good Bad Bad
Crusader 10 Heavy Tower Good Bad Bad
Duskblade 8 Heavy Heavy Good Bad Good
Fighter 10 Heavy Tower Good Bad Bad
Hexblade 10 Light None Bad Bad Good
Knight 12 Heavy Heavy Bad Bad Good
Paladin 10 Heavy Heavy Good Bad Bad
Ranger 8 Light Heavy Good Good Bad
Samurai 10 Heavy No Good Bad Bad
Swashbuckler 10 light No Good Bad Bad
Thug As fighter
Warblade 12 medium heavy Good Bad Bad


So, what do you want? If you care mainly about HP, the 12 siders go to the Barbarian, Knight, and Warblade. If you want to ensure access to heavy armor and heavy shields, Crusader, Fighter, Knight, Paladin. If you're concerned about having at least one level in a good save for each save type, Ranger is the only way to get Reflex. Duskblade, Hexblade, and Knight get you Will.

My friend wound up Ranger 1 (lots of skill points, Fort and Reflex saves) and Knight 5. Riding a magebred grizzly bear.

[mattie_p]

Third party material, perhaps. But homebrew? I've literally never heard it called that before.

Perhaps it is just me, but anytime I see Dragon Magazine material brought out it seems to the be most egregiously unbalanced feats, flaws, ACFs, races, etc. No one ever seems to recommend Dragon Magazine issue X where it is kinda good, not the best thing EVA!

[Answerer]

Perhaps it is just me, but anytime I see Dragon Magazine material brought out it seems to the be most egregiously unbalanced feats, flaws, ACFs, races, etc. No one ever seems to recommend Dragon Magazine issue X where it is kinda good, not the best thing EVA!
Actually, the overwhelming majority of it is useless underpowered crap. But yes, there are some absurdly powerful things in there. Same is true of Wizards' own work. The distinction between "official," "third-party," and "homebrew" seems much more to do with who publishes it than with quality. "Official" is stuff published by WotC. "Third-party" is stuff published by actual professional studios that are not WotC. "Homebrew" is stuff that fans self-publish on the Internet.

Indy development studios do blur the line between third-party and homebrew, but whatever else Paizo is, they're not really indy.

[Curmudgeon]

The distinction between "official," "third-party," and "homebrew" seems much more to do with who publishes it than with quality. "Official" is stuff published by WotC.
Wizards of the Coast provided a license to Paizo which let them use the official D&D logo, and plaster such things as "100% OFFICIAL DUNGEONS & DRAGONS® CONTENT" on the cover of Dragon magazines. So, the official position is that Dragon magazine is official. :smallwink:

[Story]

As is Dragonlance.

[Immabozo]

Where are you getting half-ogre template? The only half ogre template I know of is from the same DR as Half minotaur, otherwise it's a race, either from savage species or updated in races of destiny. In either case, you don't get any other "half".

Half Ogre is in Races of Destiny 2 LA, no RHD

[Urpriest]

Half Ogre is in Races of Destiny 2 LA, no RHD

And as mentioned it isn't a template.

[Immabozo]

So no designation of the "other half"?

[Answerer]

As with half-elf, half-orc, and so on, the other half is human.

[Immabozo]

true. So no benefit from the human half

[Killer Angel]

So, the official position is that Dragon magazine is official. :smallwink:

Don't you mind if I still treat Dr. Mag. with a six-feet-long pole? :smalltongue:

[SowZ]

Don't you mind if I still treat Dr. Mag. with a six-feet-long pole? :smalltongue:

Might as well make it a ten foot pole. You can start a business and become rich.

Really, though, Dragon Mag. options are nice for martial characters. Targeteer, for example, is a nice way to give ranged a much needed buff.