Sorcerer 'must have' list [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

OREO

2013-02-23, 04:52 PM

Nobody will ever accuse me (nobody with a brain anyway) of being an optimizer when it comes to my character builds... I'm cool with that :o)

BUT...

I'm building a 6th level sorcerer and it has been a VERY long time since I've done that class I'm hoping you experts out there can help with a quick list... sort of the "if you're building a sorcerer, you MUST have this..." kind of thing.

I know there's a zillion combinations that factor in, such as race etc... but the kind of thing I'm looking for is the list that is a must no matter what your race is. So it's likely a pretty short list.

Spells?

Feats?

Buff's and Stuff's ?

jedipilot24

2013-02-23, 05:06 PM

It really depends on what kind of Sorcerer you are trying to build.
Are you trying to build a Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer)?

That's one of the most common Sorcerer builds but not the only one.
Saph, in the Seven Kingdoms Campaign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139572), built a utility Sorcerer that was also very effective.

In the end, what kind of Sorcerer you build depends on the make up of the rest of your party. What roles have been filled by your party members and what roles need to be filled?
Here are the roles:
Striker: Focused on damage output but can't take much damage; the Mailman is an example.
Defender: This is the tank, focused on absorbing lots of damage so that the Strikers can kill the enemy.
Utility Caster: Can be an arcane or divine caster that does Battlefield Control, Debuffing, Buffing, and/or other utility casting like Identity or Teleport.
Trap Monkey: Focused on disabling traps and scouting
Face: Focused on social encounters

Some of these roles can be filled by more than one character; for instance, since Sorcerers have a high Charisma, they can fill the role of the Face if there no one else to do it. That same Sorcerer could also be a Mailman or a Utility Caster depending on what the party needed.

So, what does your party already have?

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-23, 05:19 PM

My sorcerer theory is weird and unpopular, but here's my conception:

The most important thing about a sorcerer is flexible casting - not spells per day. Where every morning a wizard has to choose what sort of situations he wants to be ready for, the sorcerer can adapt on the fly. Of course, over the long term, the wizard has a lot more options, but sorcerer wins for second-by-second versatility.

A wizard gets fewer spells to begin with - but, in a given day, they can also expect to get to use fewer of the spells they do prepare. A wizard may prepare a spell and never get to cast it, because that particular situation never comes up. A sorcerer, meanwhile, has a deeper pool of spells per day, and should *always* be able to use every one of them.

Thus, my ideal sorcerer is not focused, at all; rather, he picks the best spells from all over the board, so that he always has something to contribute to any situation.

So, with this in mind, the most important spells for a sorcerer are those that can be used in different ways, depending on context. Some of these are obvious - summoning spells and shapeshift, for instance, give a huge boost to versatility. Others are a little less expected.

My personal favorite is Otikuke's Resilient Sphere. With creative use, that spell can do all kinds of things. If your sorcerer gets cornered, he can cast it on himself to get a chance to get his defensive buffs up, or let the party come to his rescue. You can cast it on a badly wounded ally, to keep him safe from further threat. You can cast in on a powerful enemy, in hopes of isolating them until their allies have been dealt with. With narrow corridors, you can cast it on a single enemy minion, in order to prevent anyone else from passing them - dividing the opposing force in two.

ericgrau

2013-02-23, 05:29 PM

Well no one thing's a must have, more like there's a list of a dozen and you "must have" at least a couple of those.

In no particular order, I'd say these shine above the rest in core: Empowered ray of enfeeblement, 24 hour mage armor, web, invisibility, levitate, 24 hour false life, sleet storm, fireball, haste. I once ticked off a DM a little with alternating empowered ray of enfeeblements (individuals) and fireballs (groups). The solution was a rogue-ish undead. Luckily he wasn't a real rogue with evasion, so I fireballed him anyway for a little damage on his passed save. My false life soaked his surprise attack and the party took it from there because such a thing comes with low hp.

Spell compendium probably has more, but I'm feeling lazy at the moment. Off the top of my head I do remember benign transposition, swift fly and nerveskitter.

I know it's going to come up so I'll just say now that I think grease and glitterdust are overrated. Their areas are too small and they're more like save-or-debuffs than save-or-loses, especially if you know the rules for blindness and proneness. I prefer a web when I can. In one campaign foes passed their first 4 web saves but it didn't matter because it still helped a lot; glad that wasn't glitterdust. If you're wondering why I listed levitate and not fly it's because levitate has a range making it the ultimate "Omg-I-save-the-macguffin-or-ally-in-trouble-NOW". Fly is good at level 8-10, just not level 6. Likewise mirror image and displacement are a waste of offense combat time when you can 24 hour defensive buff instead and still attack.

For feats/items I like empower spell and a lesser rod of extend spell, because of my spell choices. Precise shot if you get rays. [Greater] spell focus (conjuration) is nice too. There are even better feats in splatbooks, hundreds perhaps, so you might want to specify books available and your goals.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-02-23, 05:31 PM

This right here (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4), absolute best thing for any spontaneous caster with a limited number of spells known to do.

For specific spells, Power Word: Pain and Wings of Cover from Races of the Dragon are amazing. Wall of Smoke (SC) can be cast across opponents' squares to force an immediate save. Web and Glitterdust are a few other must-have choices. Basic Batman Wizard principles apply.

For other feats, Fell Drain Spell (LM) for use with Power Word: Pain and Kelgore's Grave Mist (PH2) to deal a negative level per round is extremely strong. Combine it with Practical Metamagic (RotD) so it only costs +1 spell level. Be sure to get the Metamagic Specialist ACF in PH2.

Don't take any more levels of Sorcerer than you have to, though the 6th level is a sweet spot for base saves and BAB. Prestige out asap, but don't lose any levels of casting progression.

OREO

2013-02-23, 06:10 PM

The group is in the application phase (on-line PbP) and I have no way of knowing the final selection... this leads me to believe I need to think Batman by default.

On skills, any of these class skills qualify as a total waste or noob-trap?

Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Knowledge, Profession, Spellcraft... I don't want to assume anything at the moment as I know there may be a clandestine benefit to one of those options that I'm not aware of.

Thanks for the feedback thus far :o)

Crasical

2013-02-23, 06:15 PM

I tend to see sorcerers as X-Men style mutants more than anything like a traditional caster, so I tend to like seeing sorcerers with thematic spell packages based on their individual theme instead of cherry picking spells they like at whim. Nope, not optimal, but more interesting in my opinion.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-23, 06:21 PM

One of my favorite characters was an intelligent, non-cheese kobold sorcerer. I think I did do something that gave him +1 caster level, so he got new spell levels at the same rate as wizards, but none of the really abusive stuff.

He was fun. Reduce Person and Slight Frame meant that he could fit through holes the size of a rat, or sit on other PC's shoulders while casting. Power Word Pain and Stone Shape were his best friends.

nedz

2013-02-23, 07:07 PM

Well at 6th level it's tricky because you only know 6 spells pus a few cantrips.

I favour the thematic Sorcerer also — but that's just a style thing.

You need one spell per spell level which you can spam.
You should fill out the rest of your selection with spells which can serve multiple purposes, or have major utility.

Did you have a theme in mind ?
That would help us cull 6 spells from the 9,001 available.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-23, 08:19 PM

Oh, if you want to prestige... Mage of the Arcane Order. When God came down to Earth, this is the present he personally laid at the feet of sorcerers. It's got a fairly low barrier to entry - one feat - can be entered into at 6th level, has full casting progression, and is simply beautiful to behold.

Mage of the Arcane Order lets a sorcerer cast spells they don't know. In fact, it lets them cast any spell from the PBH, as well as any other spells the DM chooses to allow. It takes them a little bit of time (an extra full-round action), and they have to spend extra spells to do it, but this lets a sorcerer use any utility magic they want, and even get a fair amount of versatility in combat, if they're willing to wait an extra turn to get that perfect spell.

Oh, and bonus metamagic feats.

Spuddles

2013-02-23, 08:29 PM

Grease and glitterdust are brutal debuffs, and the sculpt spell increases their area 4fold. Grease also pretty much guarantees your fighter can escape artist a t-rex and glitterdust shuts down all but the most ridiculous hide builds.

They are awesome spells with a ton of mileage.

If you know your types, alter self is amazing. Humanoids can turn into trogs for tons of ac, flying elves for flying. Dragonwrought kobolds have wyrmling white dragons for a bunch of novel movement modes.

Randomguy

2013-02-23, 08:44 PM

It depends on whether or not you want to be a gish. I'm going to assume "not" though, so I'd go with:

1 good single target damage dealing spell, preferably not dealing fire damage.
1 good area damage spell for when you run into a roomfull of ogres.
1 good long duration defensive buff. Mage armour is the best choice here for now.
1 good battlefield control spell.
1 good offensive buff.
1 debuff.

An important note is that you could pick a spell with 2 functions, leaving you with extras to use for summoning spells or utility spells.

For single target damage, either magic missile, scorching ray or seeking ray (from PHB 2). Seeking ray is better than scorching ray until you get to level 7 (unless you have a way to get +1 to caster level), but you'd only be able to swap it out at level 8, so that's kind of a tough decision.
There's also Lesser orb of X, which is a level 1 spell that deals nearly as much damage as scorching ray and in a better energy type.

For area damage, your options are limited to pretty much Fireball, Acid breath and Burning hands.

Alternatively, you can take Flaming Sphere, which can sort of double as a decent single target spell and a weak area spell. It's the most damage efficient spell for your level, doing 12d6 in total. This gives you an extra spell to mess around with.
If you have a low dexterity, take either flaming sphere or magic missile.

For battlefield control it's either glitterdust, web, grease, sleet storm, wall of smoke (spc) or pyrotechnics.

For an offensive buff you've got enlarge person, magic weapon, haste, Bulls strength and the other enhancement spells.

And lastly for debuffs there's pyrotechnics (it's one of the double threat spells), slow, stinking cloud and ray of enfeeblement and wall of smoke.

And if you have room for an extra spell, you could take another defensive buff, like wings of cover or blur, or a utility spell like fly.

Juntao112

2013-02-23, 08:47 PM

The sorcerer handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0) talks about this.

Greenish

2013-02-23, 08:47 PM

Wings of Fury and Wings of Cover are pretty handy.

8wGremlin

2013-02-23, 09:43 PM

Are you totally sold on Sorcerer?
Cus I think, Sha'ir (dragon Magazine Compendium, a published WoTC book) is better, especially with Binder and Anima Mage

As a 6th level Human, you would have

Sha'ir 1 > Binder 2 > Anima Mage 3
Taking the feats: versatile spell caster, and arcane preparation at 1st level
and improved binding at 3rd

This would mean that you are effectively a 4th level Sha'ir and 7th level Binder
in terms of spells and effective binder level.

make sure your diplomacy is high, and select spells from the wizard/sorcerer list when you need them, as well as some divine spells.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-23, 10:01 PM

Oh, don't forget a few summoning spells. Summon is a ludicrously versatile spell - it does damage dealing, battlefield control, utility, meat shielding, you name it.

And all of that's *Before* you start summoning creatures with special abilities.

Toy Killer

2013-02-23, 10:34 PM

Baleful Transposition is a life saver. Highly recommend it, along with just about the entire Summon Monster line.

HalfQuart

2013-02-24, 12:47 AM

Oh, don't forget a few summoning spells.
Sorcerers are generally considered sub-optimal for summoning builds, in large part because the casting time of Summon Monster is "1 round" not "1 standard action"... and Sorcerers don't qualify for the Wizard ACF Rapid Summoning that makes it a standard action. Granted the Conjuration school has lots of great power and versatility, and there are plenty of out of combat uses for the Summon spells, but just know your limitations going in.

If you're interested in summoning, check out the Summoning Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864066/Summoning_Handbook).

Spuddles

2013-02-24, 02:28 AM

Feats you should look at are sculpt spell, heighten spell, and versatile spell caster.

Baleful Transposition is a life saver. Highly recommend it, along with just about the entire Summon Monster line.

For the tactfully minded, this one is incredible. Combine with a familiar with a climb or fly speed to get to hard to reach places.

Sorcerers are generally considered sub-optimal for summoning builds, in large part because the casting time of Summon Monster is "1 round" not "1 standard action"... and Sorcerers don't qualify for the Wizard ACF Rapid Summoning that makes it a standard action. Granted the Conjuration school has lots of great power and versatility, and there are plenty of out of combat uses for the Summon spells, but just know your limitations going in.

If you're interested in summoning, check out the Summoning Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864066/Summoning_Handbook).

I disagree. Mephits are like THE reason to pick up SMIV. SMVI gets you an ice devil. Mephits get you glitterdust and gust of wind and a ton Of other stuff. Cherry pick the sm spells with access to the most creatures that can cast utility spells.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-24, 10:16 AM

Sorcerers are generally considered sub-optimal for summoning builds, in large part because the casting time of Summon Monster is "1 round" not "1 standard action"... and Sorcerers don't qualify for the Wizard ACF Rapid Summoning that makes it a standard action. Granted the Conjuration school has lots of great power and versatility, and there are plenty of out of combat uses for the Summon spells, but just know your limitations going in.

If you're interested in summoning, check out the Summoning Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864066/Summoning_Handbook).

I'm not saying "Sorcerers should be focused summoners." I'm saying "The sorcerer spell list should include versatile, multi-use spells, and summon spells clearly qualify."

ericgrau

2013-02-24, 10:25 AM

Summons are weak though and you know enough spells to have enough versatility already. It doesn't help much to be able to do everything if you do everything poorly. I wouldn't mind getting a single summon spell later on, but only after I was satisfied with my "real" spells. Basically it would be a backup tactic.

What you really want are powerful spells that are useful in a wide variety of situations like web or haste.

If I were to take a summon I think it would be summon monster V at level 11. Because most of my favorite spells are on level 4, plus a few on levels 2-3. I'd want to grab wall of force on level 5 but besides that I think I could manage very well with my 4ths. I'd be tempted to put the summon at a lower level to make room for "real" spells, but at the same time it's weak enough already and I don't want to keep getting new summon spells. There's less swapping if I start high and leave it at that level.

Soranar

2013-02-24, 10:37 AM

Wings of flurry is a level 4 spell but, once you get it, you can build your sorcerer around it. It's that good.

the damage is uncapped, meaning you deal 1d6 per caster level
it's an AoE spell
the damage is untyped, meaning very vew things resist it
it doesn't affect your allies
it also dazes it's targets if they fail a reflex saves

oh and you cast it at +1 caster level if you are a dragonblooded character

As for wings of cover, it's ok for a normal sorcerer. It's awesome for a dragonblooded sorcerer.

It's also a level 2 spell that you're likely to use all the time so I'd definitely take it.

As you can see, I agree with the sorcerer handbook's suggestion to be a dragonblooded sorcerer.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-24, 10:53 AM

HalfQuart

2013-02-24, 12:40 PM

Gandariel

2013-02-24, 12:54 PM

As others have said, try to have SOMETHING for every situation.
Area damage, single target damage, single target debuff, area debuff, buff, battlefield control, and utility. Plus as many defensive spells as you can.
you don't need both Fireball and Lightning bolt, any excess slot goes to defence.

soo a short list of useful spells could be:
Orb of X (single target damage)
Wings of flurry, Fireball (area damage)
Glitterdust (or Web) (area debuff)
Shivering touch (single targe debuff)
Haste, Fly, Invisibility, (Greater)Mirror Image (buff)
Wall of Something, some fog spell
(Greater)mage armor, Wings of cover (defensive)

Also Flesh to Ice, AKA Flesh to Stone, two levels earlier

ericgrau

2013-02-24, 03:10 PM

Summons are weak? I hardly see that as being the case. They may not be great at dealing damage, but look at the list of things they can do. Soak damage, battlefield control, trap finding, access to spells and abilities not on your list....

As for sorcerers "Knowing enough spells already"... Um, what? Limited spell selection is pretty much the defining flaw of the sorcerer class.
It can do all those things quite poorly with a creature of a CR half your level with even lower level special abilities. With spells that are both versatile and powerful you can cover all such options with only a half dozen spells you know.

It's a huge trap to give a sorcerer a lot of low power utility spells as if versatility was everything. Such only leads to sorcerers that are always ready... to suck. Like I said I could see taking it but only as a backup for the 2% of the time when I can't select a different spell that fits the situation well, because it's terribly weak. It is not hard at all to pick a varied sorc list of generally useful spells and almost always have something good to cast.

For that matter a sorcerer has as many prepared options as a wizard, he just can't swap them. It's not any different than playing a wizard preparing his general purpose spell list today, which is how 95% of wizards are played anyway. "Defining flaw" is more like "minor overhyped common forum rumor limited to extremely high optimized planning days in advance".

Story

2013-02-24, 04:08 PM

Except Wizards get things like Spontaneous Divination, Alacritous Cogitation, Uncanny Forethought, etc.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-24, 04:18 PM

It can do all those things quite poorly with a creature of a CR half your level with even lower level special abilities. With spells that are both versatile and powerful you can cover all such options with only a half dozen spells you know.

It's a huge trap to give a sorcerer a lot of low power utility spells as if versatility was everything. Such only leads to sorcerers that are always ready... to suck. Like I said I could see taking it but only as a backup for the 2% of the time when I can't select a different spell that fits the situation well, because it's terribly weak. It is not hard at all to pick a varied sorc list of generally useful spells and almost always have something good to cast.

For that matter a sorcerer has as many prepared options as a wizard, he just can't swap them. It's not any different than playing a wizard preparing his general purpose spell list today, which is how 95% of wizards are played anyway. "Defining flaw" is more like "minor overhyped common forum rumor limited to extremely high optimized planning days in advance".

"All those things"... no. Some of those can be done perfectly well by a creature of almost any level. You don't need a high-level creature to set off traps, or deny squares to your enemy, or set up flanking for your allies. Furthermore, the fact that you can summon creatures with larger spell lists than your own is worthwhile in and of itself, even if those spells are lower-level than your own.

Now, I wouldn't take it at *every* level; my first instinct would be to only have it twice, once as a high-level, once as a low level.

Spuddles

2013-02-24, 04:23 PM

Sorc spell lists should match your teammates. If you have a bunch of melee, the only damaging spells you should have should be magic missile and fireball. Otherwise get stuff like haste, web, glitterdust, grease, dispel magic. Being a swiss army knife of a caster with broad versatility is often way better than than being really strong at combat a dozen different ways. Things like shrink item, silent/major image, unseen servant, and charm person can all do awesome things outside of combat that non-arcane casters have a hard time duplicating.

GoodbyeSoberDay

2013-02-24, 04:53 PM

I prefer to have at least one of each of the following categories (some repeated from above):

AoE damage: Fireball, Scintillating Sphere, Wings of Flurry
Single Target damage: Orb of X
AoE Fort Save-or-Suck: Cloud of Bewilderment, Stinking Cloud
AoE Reflex Save-or-Suck: Grease
AoE (not mind affecting) Will Save-or-Suck: Glitterdust, Slow
Group/Party Buffs: Haste, Mass Fly, Polymorph, Enlarge Person
No-save debuff: Ray of Stupidity, Ray of Enfeeblement, Enervation
Battlefield Control: Solid Fog, Wall of Force, Benign Transposition
Action Economy: Celerity, Arcane Fusion, Arcane Spellsurge
General-purpose Utility: Summon Monster X, Alter Self, Shadow Conjuration

HalfQuart

2013-02-24, 05:00 PM

Spuddles

2013-02-24, 05:06 PM

That's a really solid list. With heighten spell you can keep a lot of those relevant as you gain more levels.

Teleport, wall of stone/force, disintegrate/flesh to stone should probably show up on every sorcerer. The slashes there are for what works better for you & your campaign. Wall of stone can be used to make fortifications and structures that force cannot, but force is invisible and impenetrable on the battlefield.

For a high level fort save or die, flesh to stone works better (actual save or die, no ranged touch attack), but disintegrate works on undead rather handily as well as for removing obstacles.

Teleport is awesome for obvious reasons, but only if your DM doesn't arbitrarily block it.

Mage armor is worth picking up relatively early if you have a monk in the party or someone with VoP. Otherwise I would kind of want to wait until higher level to pick it up and just use a tower shield/other party members for cover.

Postmodernist

2013-02-24, 07:52 PM

Ah yes, definitely Haste. I'd take that before any other 3rd level spell, including fireball. It's amazingly powerful when you consider how much extra damage it results in over the course of a combat... that is assuming you've got 2+ melee/ranged party members who will enjoy the extra attack in a full-attack sequence.

This depends heavily on party composition. Bards tend to use this, and certain Initiators can't really benefit from it, since they're employing maneuvers instead of full attacks. Still, it's a great spell.

That list is a great place to start, but don't forget some other high use utility slots, like Invisibility. Bring wands and scrolls. Buy a runestaff or similar as soon as possible. Have fun.

Story

2013-02-24, 08:28 PM

That reminds me - which is better? Invsibility or Invisibility Sphere? The latter is higher level but requires fewer casts in some cases.

ericgrau

2013-02-24, 09:18 PM

Sorcerers have plenty of spells per day so invisibility hands down. It's all about being ready whether you need 1 casting or 5. It's only a tough choice on a wizard. And invisibility sphere doesn't let the main target attack or it breaks the spell for everybody, though others may attack and it'll only break it for that person. Plus invisbility sphere doesn't specify friend or foe so it can backfire if you use it in the middle of a fight. Sorc spells should be useful in as many different situations as possible.

Story

2013-02-24, 11:39 PM

And invisibility sphere doesn't let the main target attack or it breaks the spell for everybody, though others may attack and it'll only break it for that person.

That part is trivially bypassed by making the main target an object (or your familiar if you have one). I don't know why they even bothered with that clause.

tiercel

2013-02-25, 04:44 AM

There's plenty of good suggestions and handbook links and all for sorcerer spells. As a more general note, I tend to think about it this way:

What would your "standard load" for a wizard be? (Especially at not-high levels, you probably have a "standard adventuring slate" of spells to handle whatever you happen to run into.)

A wizard who sticks with this standard slate of spells all too often might as well be a sorcerer, who doesn't have to worry about having exactly one fireball, one glitterdust, one alter self, one mage armor, one magic missile, etc; the sorcerer (A) can cast as many of each spell as he needs and (B) can apply metamagic on the fly, when he needs it, making metamagic suck somewhat less.

If anything I'd work on trying to find metamagic feats that fit your character concept, since spontaneous casting makes many such feats more useful than it would for your garden-variety spell-preparation casters; you might as well enjoy doing something that you might not get to do so much of as another character class.

OREO

2013-02-26, 12:56 AM

Wow... you guys really came through on this one. HUGE volume of fantastic resources to draw from. I'm seriously looking forward to getting to know the sorcerer class a little better and very likely to build up a sorcerer for my next few games. There's so much info out there... no way I can get comfortable playing this class on just one build.

Much appreciated!

Santra

2013-02-26, 01:03 AM

Take 5 levels of sorcerer and 1 level of Sandshaper (http://http://dndtools.eu/classes/sand-shaper/)
Add these spells to your spells known. However you would loose a level of casting.
1st—bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, endure elements, parching touch, speak with animals, summon desert ally I.
2nd—eagle's splendor, fox's cunning, heat metal, owl's wisdom, resist energy, summon desert ally II, summon swarm.
3rd—control sand, desiccate, dispel magic, dominate animal, haboob, slipsand, summon desert ally III, sunstroke, tormenting thirst, wind wall.
4th—blast of sand, summon desert ally IV, wall of sand, wither.
5th—choking sands, flaywind burst, flesh to salt, summon desert ally V, transmute sand to stone, transmute stone to sand.
6th— awaken sand, mummify, sandstorm, summon desert ally VI.
7th—mass flesh to salt, summon desert ally VII.
8th—summon desert ally VIII, whirlwind.
9th—summon desert ally IX.