Skilled Adventurer Class? (Also: Is there a rogue variant without sneak attack?)

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'm working on a character for a campaign starting in a few months, and this campaign is focusing a lot of roleplaying, not so much on combat.

And one of the character types I've always wanted to try is the person who is skilled in a lot of different things, best class for that is Rogue.

Ranger has too many skills I want as cross-class
Bard gets too bogged down by stuff like Perform

But I don't want to base my character around always having to sneak up on the enemy, I want the person to be capable of a straight up fight.

So is there a rogue variant that replaces something else with sneak attack?

-----------

Also, if you think Rogue won't work, do you of a class that can work that gain's a lot of skill points per level?

Note my rolled Attributes from the DM are: 17, 16, 16, 15, 12, 10
And the Skills I'm looking to invest in are:
-Diplomacy
-Sense Motive
-Gather Information
-Knowledge (Arcana, Nature, Geography, maybe Local)
-Hide
-Move Silently
-Listen
-Spot
-Search
-Survival

Note: It's been house ruled that there is a feat we can take to treat a cross-class skill as a class skill.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Yes, there is a Rogue Variant in Unearthed Arcana/SRD that trades SA for Fighter Bonus Feats.


Actualy, the best class that's skilled at a lot of things is Factotum. It's in Dungeonscape.

[Cranthis]

You want to invest in move silently and hide. You don't want to sneak up on people all the time. I'm not sure there is many options except for rogue here. Swordsage has decent skills, but doesn't have Knowledge Arcana or Geography.

[nedz]

You could look at Scout.
Perhaps some Feat Rogue/Scout multiclass option would work.
Feat Rogue/Bard is also an option.

[Pesimismrocks]

There are some variants in unearthed arcana I think.

Factotums from dungeonscape seem the kind of thing your looking for. They can easily hold up in a fight (especially at 8th level). They have every skill as a class skill so any skills you want and they get 8+Int (which is your main stat). Take the keen intellect feat and all wisdom based skills and will saves become int-based. With brains over brawns they become very effecient in Dex and Strength based skills too. They are the ultimate solo adventurer. They can also cast spells and turn undead


Note: It's been house ruled that there is a feat we can take to treat a cross-class skill as a class skill.
'Able Learner' Races of destiny is the official feat

[Clistenes]

What about a ranger with a single rogue level (for Trapfinding), plus the Able Learner and Jack of All Trades feats, and the Urban Companion variant? That would make a great scout and skill monkey still able to hold his/her own in a fight without depending on sneak attacks.

[RolandDeschain]

Human Scout with the Able Learner feat. Skill monkey and extra precision damage that isn't reliant upon your opponent being caught flat-footed.

[BigKahuna]

It seems like you are using 3.5 but, with some slight adjustments to bring it into 3.5, there is the Archaeologist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/archaeologist) Bard archetype in Pathfinder which should do what you want. Basically, it takes out bardic performance for a whole bunch of rogue-like abilities. It doesn't have full base attack, but you should still be able to stand up in combat and you get some spells.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I've looked at Factotum, and he only has 6 + Int Mod per level, not 8.

Looks like a cool class but just a few skill points too short for my taste.
Are there any variants that let's me increase that?

The Rogue/Fighter variant though, that seems like an interesting mix.

The Ranger/Rogue mix, I get you're saying but I'm looking to try to master a ton of different skills, that's the draw I have to rogue, not the trap finding features exactly.

The DM for this campaign is very by the book, so I doubt I can transfer stuff from pathfinders. I can probably use anything from a 3.5 manual, but not outside of that.

The Scout does look good, I am defelently going to read more on it.
But right now I'll be stuck comparing it to Rogue with the Fighter variant.

[Eloel]

I've looked at Factotum, and he only has 6 + Int Mod per level, not 8.

Looks like a cool class but just a few skill points too short for my taste.
Are there any variants that let's me increase that?

The Rogue/Fighter variant though, that seems like an interesting mix.

It's likely that as a Factotum, you'll be able to put your highest stat in Int (or if point-buy, invest more in Int), ending up at a similar, if not higher skill point count.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Don't forget with that, while he only gets 6 skill points, Factotum can afford to neglect his stats in favour of Int, whereas Rogue cannot. This is because all his class features, save Opertunistic Peity, are based off Int. Which in turn boosts skill points sky high.

Not only that, Factotum gets way more mileage out of Int, applying it to Attack, Damage(?), Strength/Dex checks AND Skills based off those attributes. Some other stuff too, but off hand I don't recall. What this means, is that a Factotum only needs to bother increasing his Int score, whereas a Rogue has to increase several.

Read over the class again, this time DON'T focus on his skill points.

[limejuicepowder]

Factotum really is the supreme skillmonkey, by a considerable margin. Having only 6+ skill instead of 8+ doesn't matter, as the class is very int-SAD. Automatically having all skills as class skills is also huge. Besides very niche builds like TWF-sneak attacker, it makes rogues entirely redundant.

Another option is changling rogue 1. They have an ACF that gives 10+ skills at first level, which is nice. Changlings are also masters of disguise with their change shape ability, which is especially good for a non-combat focused skillmonkey. I think they have to trade trapfinding for it though, so you'll have to pick that up from somewhere else. The ACF is from races of eberron.

My recommendation is changling rogue 1 factotum 4 chameleon 10 factotum 5, or just all factotum if chameleon isn't your taste (it gets lots of spellcasting, but is the ultimate in jack-of-all-trade types).

[Piggy Knowles]

If you need a minimum of 8 SP/level, then you're pretty much stuck with rogue and scout. Rogue at least has the fighter feat option, where you trade sneak attack away for the option of gaining feats like a fighter, found in UA. Scout has no such luck.

That said, while I tend to play skillmonkeys and am always jonesing for more skill points, you can probably make do with 6 SP/level, especially if you have magic to supplement.

What I always recommend doing is mapping out your skill benchmarks in advance. This way, you can find out exactly how many skill points you need each level to keep up. For example, one of my recent characters was a factotum/artificer that was a heavy skill monkey. I decided that I wanted the following skill benchmarks:


MAX:
Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot (138 ranks total)

OTHER SKILL BENCHMARKS:
Autohypnosis 1 rank, balance 5 ranks, concentration 1 rank, craft (alchemy) 10 ranks, disable device 10 ranks, disguise 5 ranks, gather information 5 ranks, knowledge (arcana) 1 rank, knowledge (local) 5 ranks, knowledge (religion) 1 rank, open lock 5 ranks, search 18 ranks, sense motive 15 ranks, sleight of hand 12 ranks, spellcraft 1 rank, UMD 18 ranks (113 ranks total)

SKILL TRICKS:
Assume Quirk, Clarity of Vision, Conceal Spellcasting, Listen to This, Mosquito's Bite, Nimble Charge, Second Impression, Social Recovery, Spot the Weak Point (12 ranks total)


...which came out to a total of 263 ranks needed over the course of my career. Note that I didn't decide to arbitrarily max everything. Some skills have set DCs, and once you hit the maximum, you don't need to go any higher. Sleight of hand, for instance, went up high enough that I could consistently hit a DC of 40 (lifting a small object as a free action), and I didn't bother pumping ranks after that.

In any case, this was a pretty skill-heavy character, but I knew I wanted to start out with two levels of artificer and three levels of factotum, neither of which have full skill loadouts. So I statted up what I had. With an Int of 18, I had:


Changeling rogue 1: 56 SP
Artificer 2: 16 SP
Factotum 3: 30 SP
Uncanny Trickster 3: 36 SP


...or 138 skill points at level 9. That meant I would need 125 skill points in my remaining 11 levels to keep up with my projected totals. 11 levels of a class with 8 SP/lvl would be 132, so I would be golden there. Alternatively, I could take seven levels of an 8 SP/lvl class, and four levels of a 6 SP/lvl class, and adjust my total loadout down by a point. (That's what I actually would have ended up doing, if the campaign hadn't ended.)

You don't have to be this anal about spending your skill points, but my point is that if you plan appropriately, you don't need to go crazy with the HIGHEST POSSIBLE SKILL POINTS PER LEVEL. This is even more true if you've got a build with a little bit of magic or artificing, since you can use your casting to bump up your skills.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Ok, I did re-look at Factotum, and honestly I might pick it if you gained more SP as Intelligence increased, but you don't so I'll be maximizing skills and then some left over which I hate doing.

Also, Factotum has a lot of other features which honestly just seems like a nuisance for me. I like the appeal of the rogues special abilities, evasion, fighter bonus feats (variant) a lot more in that regard.

I should also clarify this. My goal is to make a skilled adventurer.
Magic would be nice but not necessary (If anything I'd simply want a few spells like detect/read magic so I won't be left out in magical situations).

Basically I'm working on a character where no matter what the situation is he'll be able to do something and be involved some how, while giving me many tools to help with roleplaying opportunities.

But I'm also looking to make the character at least competent in combat so he can stand his own in a straight up fight and not have to resort to a bow and/or stabbing people from behind.

As for the advice on tracking skill points, I have considered such a thing before. But, my personal style is too just max every skill I invest in. It's easier that way for me and I don't expect to be reaching a level where I need to set maximum's like that to begin with.

Plus, my DM's I play with sometimes like to make up their own DC's, so even if I should be golden according to the manual, I might still meet a challenge I could fail.

Though another question I have, what exactly are skill tricks?
How do they work and they something a character should be investing in?

[Nettlekid]

Everyone's already vouched for Factotum, and I agree with them. I'm playing a kind of evil campaign where I'm a chaotic neutral Changeling Rogue 1/Factotum more, and it's wonderful. I get skill checks in the 30s with all my useful skills, like all the interaction skills, stealth skills, and manipulation skills like Disable Device. Here are a couple of things which speak to why the Factotum is so good. For one, like people have said, you get your Int to Str/Dex-based checks. That means that your Hide, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, all of those skillful roguey tricks get BOTH Dex and Int to them. Which also means that buying a Headband of Intellect raises all your skills accordingly. If you go that route, I highly suggest one level in Marshal to get Cha to whichever check you want (I chose Dex, so I get Dex, Int, and Cha to all Dex checks) and a free Skill Focus Diplomacy, which is great for getting into Exemplar and taking 10 on all your good skills. You can already take 10 on social skills thanks to Changeling Rogue, so you end up being able to omit the die roll on basically anything you want to do.

Something that I don't think anyone's mentioned yet is that Factotums, with their Inspiration Points that hopefully a DM will let refresh outside of battle in the same way Skill Tricks and Maneuvers do, can spend an Inspiration Point to add their class level to any skill check once per day. (And that's 1/day/skill, not 1/day total. If you make one of each kind of skill check a day, you could add your level to all of them.) That's gotta be worth those 2 skill points less than Rogue all on its own.

[Piggy Knowles]

Though another question I have, what exactly are skill tricks?
How do they work and they something a character should be investing in?

Skill tricks are found in Complete Scoundrel.

Basically, they're expanded uses of skills that you can learn by spending 2 skill ranks. Once you learn them, you can use them once per encounter (or more, if you have the Uncanny Trickster prestige class).

For example, let's take the Assume Quirk skill trick. This lets assume the quirks of someone I'm disguised as, so that people familiar with the individual don't gain the usual bonuses to Spot to pierce my disguise. That's a pretty big deal - those bonuses can be from +4 to +10, depending on the level of familiarity, so my infiltrator will certainly want that.

To take it, I need at least 5 ranks in Disguise, so I can take it at second level. I go ahead and spend two ranks, and now I can use Assume Quirk.

I think skill tricks are great - they're a huge boon for skill focused characters. I like to think of them as mini-feats. They're often a little situational, but they don't require as much investment as feats.

Some cool skill tricks include things like Clarity of Vision (you can use Spot to spot invisible enemies), Back On Your Feet (if you ever fall prone you can get up as an immediate action), Mosquito's Bite (you can hit an enemy and not have them realize they've been hit until the following round), Twisted Charge (you can make a 90 degree turn while charging), Spot the Weak Point (make a single attack as a touch attack), and Social Recovery (if you fail a diplomacy check, you can make a bluff check to try to recover yourself). This is just scratching the surface - there are over 40 skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel. If you're playing any skill-focused character, I highly recommend the book.

[limejuicepowder]

I should also clarify this. My goal is to make a skilled adventurer. Magic would be nice but not necessary (If anything I'd simply want a few spells like detect/read magic so I won't be left out in magical situations).

But I'm also looking to make the character at least competent in combat so he can stand his own in a straight up fight and not have to resort to a bow and/or stabbing people from behind.

You just described a factotum perfectly. I really cannot recommend this class enough.

Let me ask you this: what are you planning on doing in combat as a feat-variant rogue? You have low hit dice, generally poor saves, medium base attack bonus, and no other source of damage. The pile of fighter feats isn't going to mean much, honestly. Your only real option is UMD wands, which is expensive (and there are about 10 other classes that do it better and more naturally).

[RolandDeschain]

Skill Tricks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=5)are fantastic! Skill Monkeys are already awesome to play and skill tricks make them even more versatile.

I think you are pretty much down to the Rogue Variant UA or a Scout. If you are spooked about Skirmishing being negated like the Rogue's Sneak Attack, don't be there are several builds to get around that problem.

Hit Die:

Rogue Variant d6
Factotum d8
Scout d8

[Curmudgeon]

It's likely that as a Factotum, you'll be able to put your highest stat in Int (or if point-buy, invest more in Int), ending up at a similar, if not higher skill point count.
Why would that make a difference in skill points? I play a lot of Rogues, and I always make INT my highest stat explicitly to gain more skill points. Later on I put all my stat increments into DEX, but getting the most out of that x4 skill point multiplier at 1st level is important.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Factotum is probably the most powerful rogue-like "noncaster" (it does get some spell-like abilities per day) option you'll find, and works fine.

Long before Factotum, Monte Cook created the Akashic (http://akashicrecord.wikia.com/wiki/Akashic) class for his 3E off-shoot, Arcana Evolved. It's easily portable, just note that AE has a 25 level advancement, and that this was written early in the 3E lifecycle back when people still thought rogues didn't need much help. I would suggest in a game that uses much of 3E splat book material, bumping the HD to a d8, putting the level 21-25 class features in at levels 16-20, and giving some other buffs at the early and mid levels to make it comparable to a Factotum or rogue w/ full 3E support.

I've always really liked the class, though. And sounds like the sort of thing you're looking for.

[nedz]

Some more things to consider.
Human would give you 1 skill point per level.
The Nymph's Kiss feat from BoED does the same, and a little more.
There are several Ranger spells, mainly in SpC, which grant skill boosts.

Ed: Oh and take a look at the Exemplar PrC from CA. This has lots of skill boosts.

[Pesimismrocks]

I cannot stress factorum enough. Your skill point total will be higher than almost every other class, there are no cross-class skills and you have obscure skills like autohypnosis and iajitsu focus. Brains over brain maxes stealth based skills

Illumian us a great race for this. With enhanced sigils you have +3 to 2 types if skills.

My current character is an illumian factotum lv11
Str skills=7 without ranks
Dex skills= 10 without ranks
Int skills= 9 without ranks. Wisdom skills too thanks to keen intellect

[Rubik]

If you DO go factotum, you might consider the magical location, Iron Wyrm Vault. For a bit of backstory and 3000 gp, you can buy the Tactile Trapsmith feat, which turns Search and Disable Device checks into Dex-based skills (which you can then add Int to using Brains Over Brawn). Adding both Dex and Int to those is a really good deal for someone with maxed Int and a high Dex.

[Gildedragon]

I'll nth the suggestion of factotum. What you describe (all around and perenial usefulness) is he factotum's schtick much more so than the rogue. With factotum you don't have to worry about maxing so many skills; you are capable of boosting STR & DEX ones with your int, and adding your class level to any one check odor every skill. A lot of skills don't need more than one check (disguise for example).

[Rubik]

I cannot stress factorum factotum enough. Your skill point total will be higher than almost every other class, there are no cross-class skills and you have obscure skills like autohypnosis and iajitsu focus. Brains over brain maxes stealth based skillsFixed. But beyond that, I'll grant this and every other factotum suggestion with a +1(000). Truly an excellent class, and it's exactly what you're looking for.

Factotum handbook: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0

[Larkas]

When talking exclusively about a skill-monkey class, it's pretty much Factotum>Savant>Rogue>=Expert. Rogue as a class is better than the Expert, but having any 10 skills as class skills can be useful if for some reason you can't use any other means to get that. Or, you know, to gestalt with a Fighter in a regular game.

Savant is from Dragon Compendium, by the way.

[dspeyer]

Trying to mention things other people haven't...

The Able Learner feat (requires human) makes cross-class skill ranks cost one point. It doesn't increases the cap, but the cap is high if the skill is class for *any* level you've taken. So Able Learner + 1-level factotum dip means never having to worry about class skills again. This makes swordsage and ranger a lot more appealing.

The beguiler is a 6+int int-based caster, which means it can focus on having a high int even more than a factotum can. Its spell list is limited, but still pretty flexible, and you can expand it with Arcane Disciple.

[Psyren]

Though I'll bandwagon Factotum with the others, I'll also point to Nettlekid's post where he called out the Changeling Rogue. Judging by the skills list in your OP, you don't seem to be expecting many traps, so you won't need Trapfinding; Changeling Rogue trades it for some very useful social bonuses. And being a Changeling you will of course be a master of disguise. Best of all, if you ever need Trapfinding back later on you can get it from Incarnum (though not until level 6.)

The best part is that Changelings can take Able Learner just like humans can, letting you cross-class a bunch of skills without burning up your SP.

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, some more thoughts...

Going by your original list of desired skills, have you looked into the Urban Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er)?

The urban ranger would have sense motive, gather info, knowledge (geography and local), hide, move silently, listen, spot and search as skills. It loses survival, which you mentioned you wanted, but that's not really a dealbreaker, because Urban Tracking lets you use gather information to track instead of survival.

So, you'd only be missing knowledge (arcana/nature) and diplomacy. Taking the Shooting Star substitution levels from Champions of Valor would give you knowledge (arcana) for a few levels. Knowledge (nature) can be nabbed with Knowledge Devotion, a solid feat regardless. Diplomacy can be picked up by taking Martial Study for any White Raven maneuver.

As a human Urban Ranger with a 17 Int, you could keep 10 skills maxed, if you really are serious about maxing every skill instead of just finding certain benchmarks to hit. With Nymph's Kiss, you could up that to 11. So, you could do...

Human, Urban Ranger
1- Nymph's Kiss, Martial Study (Douse the Flames), Urban Tracking
2- Rapid Shot OR Two-Weapon Fighting
3- Knowledge Devotion

...and continue on from there. Then you could max the following:

Diplomacy, sense motive, gather information, search, spot, listen, hide, move silently, knowledge (local), knowledge (geography), knowledge (nature)

I'd also look at the urban class features from Cityscape's web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). Some interesting alternate class features there. For example, you can trade out wild empathy for voice of the city, which helps you communicate with people you don't share a language with. The urban companion is a nice buff over the ranger's animal companion, too - you get a familiar, basically, which uses your HP total and skill ranks.

Personally, I wouldn't go crazy maxing out knowledge (geography) if I were you, by the way. You could put a few ranks in it, then also add a few ranks in knowledge (arcana), and maybe pick up some skill tricks, too. You'll want at least one rank in most knowledge skills that deal with monster identification to get the most out of Knowledge Devotion.

[Gildedragon]

I will add one often overlooked combo for skilled characters:
Bard with bardic knack and jack of all trades. It's pretty good and there's a fair bit of support for bards.

[Rukia]

I'm not sure why you're so adamantly against Factotum when it is absolutely the best class for what you want to do. My guess is you glanced over it and didn't pay close enough attention to their class features.

At 3rd level, brains over brawn. Add your int bonus to any dex/str checks including skills. Which means if you have 18 int at level 3 you basically have free improved initiative and 4 free skill points for every dex and str skill. At a minimum you can spend less of your attributes on str or dex and still make up the difference, or if you have them to spare you will get even higher skill checks. The rogue's meager 2 extra skill points per level is paltry compared to this. Factotum's were given 6 points per level because that's all they actually need with the ability to add int to so many things.

Also you will be able to add your factotum class level to any skill check once per day per skill. Meaning you can make epic skill checks every day but only once per skill. These are their minor boosts, you can also heal yourself, turn undead, get spell like abilities that can be used for more skill boosts or disguises. Hmm.. alter self, invisibility, silence... At level 8 you can start to get extra actions during encounters and if you make it high enough you'll get int to AC and a host of other things. Not to mention you get more hps than a rogue and can use better weapons.

Just spend a couple feats on font of inspiration and you'll probably never have to worry about running out of inspiration points since they refresh every encounter.

[Rubik]

Just spend a couple feats on font of inspiration and you'll probably never have to worry about running out of inspiration points since they refresh every encounter.If I'm playing a factotum, I go for at least three FoI's, but no more than four. Of course, if I'm swimming in feats I might go as high as six, but that's...excessive.

I do enjoy investing in wand chambers and wand bracers, followed up by a few wands of spells I use frequently (like CL 5 Alter Self, Lesser Vigor, and CL 4 Grease), and using my spell-likes for things like Heroics. That spell in particular is great for making up for grabbing so many FoI's.

It's astounding just how much better of skillmonkeys that factotums make than...basically anything else. And they dip extraordinarily well, too. If you want a more martial bent, dipping into warblade or crusader can be amazing, especially with maneuvers that scale well in higher levels. If you want a more ninja feel, swordsage is your best friend. If you require amazing versatility to the point of being an uber-bard, chameleon is superb.

Basically, factotums are the strongest skillmonkey class in the game outside of the mega-casters (like wizards). Try it and enjoy.

[Santra]

If you dont mind a caster and are adamantly against Factotum you may look at a beguiler. With int as a primary and 6+int skill points a level you will have about the same or more skill points as a rogue and you get almost the same skills. You can wear light armor and cast spells from a set list. You would not be that great in melee but you are fairly decent.