Superman at his weakest

[gooddragon1]

I've heard of superman doing incredible things and that his power level fluctuates as the story requires. So I wonder, what is the weakest he has ever been portrayed as with respect to the following attributes:
-Strength (Was he ever shown to not be very strong)
-Speed (Was he ever shown to not be very fast)
-Toughness (Was he ever shown to not be very tough (did gunfire ever take him down))
-Extra Super Powers (any examples of versions without super sight, heat vision, freezing breath)

I ask so that I can compare this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272325) to him.

I've been thinking of just saying he's as powerful as the story requires and he's "unlocking hidden potential" as he levels up.

[Soras Teva Gee]

You're looking for Action Comics #1 and other Golden Age vintage stuff for the first couple of years.

No flight, toughness is rated at IIRC "nothing less then a bursting shell" so artillery, lobs cars and not planets.

Linkara did a review of it if you want a simple way to cover it.

[comicshorse]

I vaguely remember in the Superman/Aliens crossover he was seperated from earth's un and drained his powers to the extent he had to use a spacesuit to survive in space and a gun to fight the Aliens

[Fan]

I've heard of superman doing incredible things and that his power level fluctuates as the story requires. So I wonder, what is the weakest he has ever been portrayed as with respect to the following attributes:
-Strength (Was he ever shown to not be very strong)
-Speed (Was he ever shown to not be very fast)
-Toughness (Was he ever shown to not be very tough (did gunfire ever take him down))
-Extra Super Powers (any examples of versions without super sight, heat vision, freezing breath)

I ask so that I can compare this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272325) to him.

I've been thinking of just saying he's as powerful as the story requires and he's "unlocking hidden potential" as he levels up.

Well, even the earliest Superman had his heat vision (After issue 1 of course.) and gale breath, Super Sight and Hearing (but to much lesser extents) were also exampled in Golden Age.

Golden Age Superman ALSO was capable of lifting up to 15 tons, running as fast as a WW 2 Era Jet Plane, and managing quite a number of feats that make him quite twinky by DnD standards.

If anything his tankiness is his worst stat in Golden Age, but given that he can handle a WW 2 era artillery shell (And catch them.) with artillery shells being capable of cratering the ground down to a foot or two (That means a minimum of DR 50 / Cold Iron in this case given the toughness of rock in DnD for 2 six inch chunks.)

[Killer Angel]

So I wonder, what is the weakest he has ever been portrayed

whistle innocently (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IRRFMrzTYpE#t=56s)...

yes, I know this wasn't what you were looking for... :smalltongue:
The weakest I can recall is Supes in the Dark Knight, where Batman beats him up with missiles, acid, and electricity (although we could debate on the fact that superman was probably holding himself, during that fight).

[Tectonic Robot]

Superman had a silly career, didn't he?

[Closet_Skeleton]

He gets taken out of action for several seconds by mere alien lasers in some of the Justice League cartoons.

[Fan]

whistle innocently (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IRRFMrzTYpE#t=56s)...

yes, I know this wasn't what you were looking for... :smalltongue:
The weakest I can recall is Supes in the Dark Knight, where Batman beats him up with missiles, acid, and electricity (although we could debate on the fact that superman was probably holding himself, during that fight).

And a Kryptonite arrow, and Superman was explicitly not trying to kill Batman the entire time (And kept asking Bruce to stop, the entire time.), and Batman had years of prep time, and Superman was MUCH weaker in that medium and had just recovered from being nearly destroyed and completely drained of solar energy by a Nuclear Missile.

Batman did not beat Superman without Kryptonite.

[endoperez]

Didn't Superman lose his superpowers for a while, so he took a sabbattical and the comics were about the adventures of Clark Kent the reporter? I think it was related to the whole "52" thing. Or "Infinite Crisis". One of the recent events where the world was recreated any way.

[Fan]

Didn't Superman lose his superpowers for a while, so he took a sabbattical and the comics were about the adventures of Clark Kent the reporter? I think it was related to the whole "52" thing. Or "Infinite Crisis". One of the recent events where the world was recreated any way.

That happened post the events of 52 yes, but he regained his powers in the succeeding story line "Up, up, and away!" by Geoff Johns.

However again, he is "Clark Kent" then, not Superman.

[Tavar]

Superman at World's End, perhaps?

He gets killed by mere bullets!

[gooddragon1]

Looks like I'm gonna go with a "red sun"/"unlocking potential" justification.

[Metahuman1]

Arn't there stories floating around that are else-worlds about him in universes where he has approximately NO powers beyond a man of his height, weight, build and excersize and study patterns?

[Senator Cybus]

As others have mentioned, there've been Elseworlds powerless/powered-down versions of Supes and certainly kryptonite and red sun radiation can weaken him - but the weakest I've ever seen Superman depicted without any external force sapping his powers was back in a series (All Access?) that span-off the big D.C./Marvel cross-over event back in the 90s, in which Venom punched him out! Yeah, as in 'Spider-Man baddie' Venom.

Okay, not punched out as in unconscious, but definitely hit (too slow to dodge) hurt (less than his usual tougness) and knocked backwards (definitely not as strong as normal). IIRC later in the same story, Supes has to catch a falling girder that Venom chucked off the side of a building, and it seems to take actual effort to do so - which is weird for someone who can usually catch falling jumbo jets.

Supes was nerfed pretty damn hard to make that story work...

[Senator Cybus]

Superman had a silly career, didn't he?

That's not really accurate.

Superman still has a silly career! :smallsmile:

[Soras Teva Gee]

Seems nobody has managed to get below the bar I set so far.



Okay, not punched out as in unconscious, but definitely hit (too slow to dodge) hurt (less than his usual tougness) and knocked backwards (definitely not as strong as normal). IIRC later in the same story, Supes has to catch a falling girder that Venom chucked off the side of a building, and it seems to take actual effort to do so - which is weird for someone who can usually catch falling jumbo jets.

Supes was nerfed pretty damn hard to make that story work...

That's really not that unusual, Supes has been knocked around quite a bit as just about any story will have him take a few hits. And super speed is almost never used to its nominal fullest in comics.

Drama preserving handicap? Inconsistent power levels? A statement that maybe he isn't as powerful as all that?

You decide.

[Killer Angel]

and Superman was MUCH weaker in that medium and had just recovered from being nearly destroyed and completely drained of solar energy by a Nuclear Missile.

All good points about the fight against Batman, but indeed, that nuclear missile almost killed him... this alone tells that Superman, in that comic, was not so SUPER.
As a comparison, in Kingdom Come, we have a warhead specifically designed to take out the superhumans, that killed a large portion (80%?) of the super "heroes", and Superman was not even scratched.

[Devonix]

That's not really accurate.

Superman still has a silly career! :smallsmile:

What's more accurate is that comic book careers as a rule are silly.
And a good thing too.

[Kitten Champion]

Speaking of silly careers.

Is Superman still a reporter? Or has the dwindling printed news medium finally hit the Daily Planet.

[Devonix]

No longer working at the Daily planet There were troubles between him and the new person in charge treating the news like sensationalism. Touching on how things are sort of turning from investigation to entertainment.

Though he's not always worked at the planet in the past either He's held many jobs.

[Traab]

No longer working at the Daily planet There were troubles between him and the new person in charge treating the news like sensationalism. Touching on how things are sort of turning from investigation to entertainment.

Though he's not always worked at the planet in the past either He's held many jobs.

Ugh, he probably would have hurled J.J. Jameson through a plate glass window if he ever had to work for that man then.

"Cape Wearing Pervert With His Underwear on the Outside Terrorizes New York!"

/Clarks eye starts twitching

[Go!Go!Go!]

As a comparison, in Kingdom Come, we have a warhead specifically designed to take out the superhumans, that killed a large portion (80%?) of the super "heroes", and Superman was not even scratched.

in KC, the supervillains discuss supes, and they conculde that after years of apsorbing yellow sun rays, hes at the hieght of his invunerability. they dont even think that kryptonite would work on him anymore. that supes is at the far of the power scale, while were talking about the neer end.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Ugh, he probably would have hurled J.J. Jameson through a plate glass window if he ever had to work for that man then.

"Cape Wearing Pervert With His Underwear on the Outside Terrorizes New York!"

/Clarks eye starts twitching
I want this.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Though he's not always worked at the planet in the past either He's held many jobs.

Television news anchor is my favorite.

Clark Kent, in front of millions of people. Every. Day.

Honestly 70s DC. And I normally defend the glasses thing since most people will never know a journalist's face so it keeps the suspect list of people that really should know down to a bare handful.


Ugh, he probably would have hurled J.J. Jameson through a plate glass window if he ever had to work for that man then.

"Cape Wearing Pervert With His Underwear on the Outside Terrorizes New York!"

/Clarks eye starts twitching

Almost a shame he doesn't wear the red panties anymore isn't it?

[Traab]

Television news anchor is my favorite.

Clark Kent, in front of millions of people. Every. Day.

Honestly 70s DC. And I normally defend the glasses thing since most people will never know a journalist's face so it keeps the suspect list of people that really should know down to a bare handful.



Almost a shame he doesn't wear the red panties anymore isn't it?

Yeah, almost. :p Come on though, admit it, you could easily see JJ doing something just like that if superman had made new york his home. Him being an alien on top of it? Hoo boy! He would have had a field day with all that. As for the glasses thing, yes, in most scenarios he wouldnt be noticable enough for people to spot superman with glasses on. But considering the person he saves 100 times a year is his coworker, and is a world famous investigative journalist. . . . yeah.

[MLai]

Superman is like 6 ft 7 ins or something, correct? Is that canon? Because that's how everything depicts him. If not that huge, he's at least as big and tall as The Rock.

What gets me is that he has no shrinking powers... so he's just as huge and imposing when being Clark Kent.

[Marnath]

Superman is like 6 ft 7 ins or something, correct? Is that canon? Because that's how everything depicts him. If not that huge, he's at least as big and tall as The Rock.

What gets me is that he has no shrinking powers... so he's just as huge and imposing when being Clark Kent.

He slouches, and wears baggy clothing that conceals his muscles. Presumably he gives off enough "this guy is a wuss" cues that people don't see past that to realize how tall and big-framed he is.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah, almost. :p Come on though, admit it, you could easily see JJ doing something just like that if superman had made new york his home. Him being an alien on top of it? Hoo boy! He would have had a field day with all that. As for the glasses thing, yes, in most scenarios he wouldnt be noticable enough for people to spot superman with glasses on. But considering the person he saves 100 times a year is his coworker, and is a world famous investigative journalist. . . . yeah.

Oh totally JJ could and would. Supes wouldn't even need to be in NYC methinks.

And Lois well, I will accept as simply a thing that Lois will not figure it out. Ever. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0QVvbhMm24) Its one of those psych things like how Lex once had an analysis that proved Superman was Clark Kent, and flat out refused to believe it. Not the most realistic thing maybe, but for the handful of people that have ever interacted with both Superman and Clark Kent its okay.

And either careful art or good acting can sell it.

[Traab]

I vaguely recall the old Lois and Clark tv show, she figured it out on several occasions but they kept walking it back with things like amnesia, head wounds causing short term memory loss, magic whoosiewhatsits and things like that.

[Pink]

Superman is like 6 ft 7 ins or something, correct? Is that canon? Because that's how everything depicts him. If not that huge, he's at least as big and tall as The Rock.

What gets me is that he has no shrinking powers... so he's just as huge and imposing when being Clark Kent.

I really don't have the comic knowledge to be in this thread but...

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/78275/2404525-fqallstarsuperman_super.jpg

[Deepbluediver]

Superman is like 6 ft 7 ins or something, correct? Is that canon? Because that's how everything depicts him. If not that huge, he's at least as big and tall as The Rock.

What gets me is that he has no shrinking powers... so he's just as huge and imposing when being Clark Kent.

I think the best explanation I ever saw was that "Clark Kent" is basically like an former football-start/college athlete type who stayed in shape. So he's big, yes, and fairly muscular, but not moreso than a regular human could be.

Of course, the last time a male superhero was drawn with a chest smaller than a beer keg was 1979 or so....
but that's the verbal explanation anyhow.

And yeah, superman has had some weird powers over the years; I think he was one of the biggest users of the whole "moving at the speed of the plot".

http://site.supermanthrutheages.com/Encyclopaedia/images/word.gif
Frankly, trying to keep that level of power is too much, really, and it's one of the things that makes him less interesting in most modern comics, because short of galaxy-stomping villians (like Darkseid) there's really very few people who can challenge him. I much prefered the level of power he had in the DCAU, even if long-time comic book fans complained. It was somewhat inconsistent, but at least it gave other heroes a chance to shine because not every problem could be solved by just throwing Superman at it.

[MLai]

I really don't have the comic knowledge to be in this thread but...
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/78275/2404525-fqallstarsuperman_super.jpg
Wow. I see. Clark Kent looks like a serial killer.
No wonder no one ever sees Superman in him.

[Traab]

His disguise was way better in the christopher reeve movies. He didnt look like a hugely muscular man, so give him thick nerd glasses, some loose geeky clothing, and a nervous stutter and boom, totally different guy. On the other hand, in the JLU cartoon, he looked like he barely cared enough to cover up his costume before going into work. He looked like a freaking man mountain, wore the thinnest framed glasses he could, and never even changed his posture, his hair, or even his personality any. Yeah there were slight differences in personality, but not like reeves clark/superman switch.

[Fan]

I think the best explanation I ever saw was that "Clark Kent" is basically like an former football-start/college athlete type who stayed in shape. So he's big, yes, and fairly muscular, but not moreso than a regular human could be.

Of course, the last time a male superhero was drawn with a chest smaller than a beer keg was 1979 or so....
but that's the verbal explanation anyhow.

And yeah, superman has had some weird powers over the years; I think he was one of the biggest users of the whole "moving at the speed of the plot".

http://site.supermanthrutheages.com/Encyclopaedia/images/word.gif
Frankly, trying to keep that level of power is too much, really, and it's one of the things that makes him less interesting in most modern comics, because short of galaxy-stomping villians (like Darkseid) there's really very few people who can challenge him. I much prefered the level of power he had in the DCAU, even if long-time comic book fans complained. It was somewhat inconsistent, but at least it gave other heroes a chance to shine because not every problem could be solved by just throwing Superman at it.


Well, in comics as well everyone else was stronger and better in general.

The Flash is faster, GL is able to respond to more distant threats (Thanks to Warp gates that are ACTUALLY instant.) and has a better communication network, Wonder Woman is his female Parallel, and Batman has more outlandish toys to play with.

Superman is of course, still the all around best member of the league as it's leader (Sort of like how Leonardo is the best Ninja Turtle in a fight, despite Donatello being smarter, or Raph being more physically able.).

And EVERY founding member of the league sans batman deals with cosmic level threats. One of Wonder Woman's villains is the embodiment of universal entropy, another is Hades, and for Flash you have Dr.Zum who is a time travelling Super Flash who has punches that hit with the impact of a white dwarf star.

Superman is far and beyond from the only one who suffers from power dissonance with GL's moving planets and isolating stars as part of their day job.

[Dienekes]

Honestly, Reeves sold that Clark and Superman were different people better than the comics ever did.

All-Star Superman did a decent job of making them look different, of course he gave so many bloody hints who he was it hardly mattered.

[Metahuman1]

My personal answer to the Powercurve is to do two things.

1: Necessary force: He works the lower level guys with a deliberate effort to not hurt them more then he has to to keep property damage and casualty's minimized. Sorta like how a real world cops. Also helps explain why guys like toyman and Lex are alive still.

2: Make him fight guys that ARE at his power level. Make him fight Mongole, Darksied, Zod, Bizarro, Manchester Black, guys who can actually freaking MAKE him fight.

Don't make Intergang and Prankster and such the focus of story-lines as much.


Sorta like Marvel wouldn't Make Dormammu consistently fight Punisher, Daredevil and Captain America, they make him fight Dr. Strange and Thor and Ms. Marvel.

[Traab]

My personal answer to the Powercurve is to do two things.

1: Necessary force: He works the lower level guys with a deliberate effort to not hurt them more then he has to to keep property damage and casualty's minimized. Sorta like how a real world cops. Also helps explain why guys like toyman and Lex are alive still.

2: Make him fight guys that ARE at his power level. Make him fight Mongole, Darksied, Zod, Bizarro, Manchester Black, guys who can actually freaking MAKE him fight.

Don't make Intergang and Prankster and such the focus of story-lines as much.


Sorta like Marvel wouldn't Make Dormammu consistently fight Punisher, Daredevil and Captain America, they make him fight Dr. Strange and Thor and Ms. Marvel.

My personal answer is to not make stronger bad guys, just make NEW bad guys. For example, Darkseid still exists, only this time he is the emperor of an alien empire and is just strong. He isnt some god, or cosmic level threat, he is just some super strong rock looking fella with badass eyebeam attacks. This way superman still has to fight the parademon armies, and the various generals of darkseids armies are all strong or have powerful toys, and the big bad is still someone only he or a handful of other people could fight, but this way you dont have to start swelling his power levels to milky way galaxy is a frisbee to him to do it. Im not saying he should have stayed at "faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound!" But there is a WHOLE LOT OF SPACE BETWEEN THE TWO EXTREMES!

[Deepbluediver]

See, my problem is that the the comics have been telling pretty much the same stories with the same characters over and over again for 60+ years. By now, if you go to the middle of Africa, and find the most remote stone-age village you can, and go into the smallest mud hut their will probably be a poster of Batman on the wall.
We've had good batman and evil batman and badass batman and whiny batman and cyborg batman and vampire batman and boy-scout batman and for goodness sake he's outlived like 18 fricking Robins at this point!
Its like either the writers, or the editors, or the publishing companies or SOMEONE doesn't have a single shred of confidence that people will want to try stuff with actual new characters in it. There's hundreds of heroes in both the Marvel and DC stables and they hardly even get trotted out except for those huge crossover events.

And they wonder why paperbacks are losing market share to OoTS and it's ilk.


I'd actually find it more interesting and more respectable if some of the big names either went on permenant vacation or actually STAYED DEAD, in interest of advancing the narrative.
Superman goes off to explore other worlds.
Oa gets sucked into a black hole.
Apokalypse and New-Genisis' long-simmering cold war finally leads them to nuke each other into oblivion.
The Joker slips while running on a catwalk and splatters his brains on the ground.
etc etc etc

[Dienekes]

I have to agree with Traab here. A lot of folks seem to think just increasing the numbers around Supes is cool, when honestly to me it just leads to a bunch of confusion and ridiculous scenarios. Like every time he's beaten by someone who isn't Darkseid.

I like when Superman has to deal with a threat like Metallo, Toyman, Lex Luthor, and so on. These threats have beaten Superman and that's fine. If you want to introduce another villain like Mongol and Darkseid into the mix, they can be super strong and menacing, that doesn't mean they need to be able to destroy the world in one punch, or that Superman needs to juggle galaxies to defeat them. Especially when they do fight and the damage to the areas around them are frankly not that bad considering how strong they are supposed to be.

[Fan]

I have to agree with Traab here. A lot of folks seem to think just increasing the numbers around Supes is cool, when honestly to me it just leads to a bunch of confusion and ridiculous scenarios. Like every time he's beaten by someone who isn't Darkseid.

I like when Superman has to deal with a threat like Metallo, Toyman, Lex Luthor, and so on. These threats have beaten Superman and that's fine. If you want to introduce another villain like Mongol and Darkseid into the mix, they can be super strong and menacing, that doesn't mean they need to be able to destroy the world in one punch, or that Superman needs to juggle galaxies to defeat them. Especially when they do fight and the damage to the areas around them are frankly not that bad considering how strong they are supposed to be.

Collateral is almost ALWAYS much less than the wrath of the character directed at scenery. This is universally true in every medium, not just comics.

In War Movies artillery shells bust tanks, but they can't get through some waist high concrete walls that happened to be there? In anime you have characters that can cut through buildings but when they cut something in a fight usually it just sparks off, or you have somebody throw around planet busting energy attacks that do absolutely NO collateral when blocked, even if it's just by an energy attack of equal or sometimes even greater force.

It's not so much consistency as it is animation budget, and writer forgetfulness..

[Dienekes]

Collateral is almost ALWAYS much less than the wrath of the character directed at scenery. This is universally true in every medium, not just comics.

In War Movies artillery shells bust tanks, but they can't get through some waist high concrete walls that happened to be there? In anime you have characters that can cut through buildings but when they cut something in a fight usually it just sparks off, or you have somebody throw around planet busting energy attacks that do absolutely NO collateral when blocked, even if it's just by an energy attack of equal or sometimes even greater force.

It's not so much consistency as it is animation budget, and writer forgetfulness..

I don't think I have ever seen the tank example in a movie. I've seen shrapnel not punch through walls but not direct hits before. Normally indirect hits are shown by large piles of dirt and craters being formed.

But that just furthers my point. In almost every comic there's no reason for Superman to have the ability to bench press planet Earth. It never actually comes up except when facing a character who can also bench press Earth, but even when they fight it just looks like he's fighting any other strong guy. The big numbers are meaningless, except for fanboys to point out that it totally said in that one comic that Superman can benchpress Earth. When you stop and look at the fight and tasks that Superman normally needs to accomplish they can be done in a much smaller strength. Still an impressive strength, still a powerful strength that is beyond anything we are capable of. But one that allows for the less galaxy busting enemies to still be legitimate threats instead of being headscratchers whenever they happen to gain the advantage over the guy who can move faster than the speed of light.

[Fan]

I don't think I have ever seen the tank example in a movie. I've seen shrapnel not punch through walls but not direct hits before. Normally indirect hits are shown by large piles of dirt and craters being formed.

But that just furthers my point. In almost every comic there's no reason for Superman to have the ability to bench press planet Earth. It never actually comes up except when facing a character who can also bench press Earth, but even when they fight it just looks like he's fighting any other strong guy. The big numbers are meaningless, except for fanboys to point out that it totally said in that one comic that Superman can benchpress Earth. When you stop and look at the fight and tasks that Superman normally needs to accomplish they can be done in a much smaller strength. Still an impressive strength, still a powerful strength that is beyond anything we are capable of. But one that allows for the less galaxy busting enemies to still be legitimate threats instead of being headscratchers whenever they happen to gain the advantage over the guy who can move faster than the speed of light.

Actually, it is a plot point that existed in several stories.

In "Our World's at War" Braniac had take over the Imperiex's War World which had power enough to recreate the universe but needed time to activate it, Superman knew that the solid metal (and insanely dense) war world would weigh in excess of DOZENS of Earth's and went to sundip in order to be able to move it through a boom tube through time to stop the destruction of the Universe and inadvertantly cause the big bang (which was Imperiex and Brainiac causing the two universe exploders to go off at the same time.), and then in another Story Star Lord was dragging Earth out of orbit with his power so Superman had to be able to do lift the planet in order to save the world, physically moving it back into orbit in order to stop the world from turning into a barren dead wasteland against another force that could pull the planet.

Then there was the time where he had to be EVEN STRONGER to absorb the Maggeddon device which was going to destroy the universe with an Anti Sun radiation bomb, so he had to absorb that in order to prevent the destruction of the Universe, and he had to be stronger in order to move the Maggeddon machine into the solar system from the edge of the Universe which was in excess of dozens of times larger than our own sun.

I think that's enough examples, but there are plenty more, like he has to be that strong in order to fight Solaris, The Tyrant Sun, or help fight Parallax the Emotional Fear Entity, or The Anti Monitor who is the entropy of the multiverse and the polar opposite of The Source.

There's plenty of reasons beyond fighting X or Y.

Does it need to be that strong to be a good story? No. But it is about Superheroes, and honestly, it's not that big a deal that they are that strong. There are plenty stronger in manga that do so much worse.

[Dienekes]

Yes there are times when he needs to be that strong, I vaguely remember a story where he had to push the planet back in orbit or something.

But then it does not make sense that he has ever lost to Toyman, or Mannheim, or any of the non-galaxy busting villains. It is a disconnect. And frankly I would be fine losing some of the more outlandish and ridiculous stories (like absorbing a device that would destroy the Universe. Why? Was the planet not big enough stakes? Again, large numbers to the point where it really becomes meaningless) to smooth out the power curve and make the non-galaxy busters into legitimate threats that don't require PLOT POWER in order to get the upper hand on Supes.

[MLai]

It's writer creep. There's nothing you can do about it unless you kill the character. And have him stay dead or reincarnate at a base power level.

Look at Hercules. In Greek myth canon, he helped the titan Atlas hold up the world. The World. After that, how the heck is a lion, a hydra, or an army a threat to him? Just pick up a mountain and throw it onto whatever it is.

So the Greeks wisely killed him with a kryptonite shirt.

[Fan]

It's writer creep. There's nothing you can do about it unless you kill the character. And have him stay dead or reincarnate at a base power level.

Look at Hercules. In Greek myth canon, he helped the titan Atlas hold up the world. The World. After that, how the heck is a lion, a hydra, or an army a threat to him? Just pick up a mountain and throw it onto whatever it is.

So the Greeks wisely killed him with a kryptonite shirt.

It's called a progression towards divinity. In Greek Mythology the Titans made the threat of stacking up Mountains to reach Olympus, taking the burden of an actual titan (Atlas) was supposed to showcase his progression back towards Divinity.

[Dienekes]

It's writer creep. There's nothing you can do about it unless you kill the character. And have him stay dead or reincarnate at a base power level.

Look at Hercules. In Greek myth canon, he helped the titan Atlas hold up the world. The World. After that, how the heck is a lion, a hydra, or an army a threat to him? Just pick up a mountain and throw it onto whatever it is.

So the Greeks wisely killed him with a kryptonite shirt.

Actually, that death got retconned into becoming a god. And then some latter writers got their hands on the character and made a bunch more stories about him taking place before and after his death.

Ehh, I'm willing to give the ancient Greeks some slack. The whole consistent storytelling thing was a bit out of their league (who was born first Athena or Hephaestus, because in at least one version of events older versions of each helped the other get born).

Actually when you really sit back and think of it a lot of the pros and cons of modern comic books are like the pros and cons of ancient Greek mythologies.

[Kitten Champion]

Does it need to be that strong to be a good story? No. But it is about Superheroes, and honestly, it's not that big a deal that they are that strong. There are plenty stronger in manga that do so much worse.

Except, and this is truly significant, manga have conclusions. The main character reaches its acme nearing the finality of the overarching story, to deal with the End Boss -- and then the narrative's over. They might think of a way to prolong the story with some silly tactic like being depowered, but a manga series will inevitably conclude at some point.

Manga, for all its faults, is extremely sensitive to power dynamics in their stories, even the most outlandish ones.

[Fan]

Except, and this is truly significant, manga have conclusions. The main character reaches its acme nearing the finality of the overarching story, to deal with the End Boss -- and then the narrative's over. They might think of a way to prolong the story with some silly tactic like being depowered, but a manga series will inevitably conclude at some point.

Manga, for all its faults, is extremely sensitive to power dynamics in their stories, even the most outlandish ones.

and Comic book has ages that conclude the story of that version of each character. We just had one end last year.

Also, I'd like to direct you to Naruto which has been running since 1998, it is now 2013. While Superman is infinitely more guilty of running on for longer, manga is far from innocent, and then we have things like Sentai series which have been going on since the 60's. or The Mazinger series (In mecha) which has been going on just as long, or Astroboy which is still running to my knowledge albeit not in it's original magna form since 1952.

It's a matter of American Comics being before manga in this sense that Astroboy wasn't earlier.

So no, what you're saying is only true in the manga you've read. =p

[Traab]

Collateral is almost ALWAYS much less than the wrath of the character directed at scenery. This is universally true in every medium, not just comics.

In War Movies artillery shells bust tanks, but they can't get through some waist high concrete walls that happened to be there? In anime you have characters that can cut through buildings but when they cut something in a fight usually it just sparks off, or you have somebody throw around planet busting energy attacks that do absolutely NO collateral when blocked, even if it's just by an energy attack of equal or sometimes even greater force.

It's not so much consistency as it is animation budget, and writer forgetfulness..

Yeah, but just as an example of ludicrous immersion breaking lack of collateral damage. "He HAS to be dead! I hit him with the force of 15 super novas!" The guy did that on the moon. And yet somehow the moon is still there, even though half a supernova should have utterly obliterated the piece of rock. Its times like that when you realize the numbers really are meaningless 9 times out of 10. Yes there are times when the actual level of strength is being used, like in your planetary tug of war and other scenarios, but far more often we get super saiyan levels of power, which even THEY admit are meaningless, and are slapped onto the description of an attack to show us just how awesome superman is to survive that.

The power creep ISNT needed. You could go on forever with superman at the level of, I dunno, lois and clark. Not a god, humans can be a threat to him, and you dont need to obliterate galaxies to make him flinch. As an example. In that series, at one point superman is holding onto the rear of a missile keeping it from launching. He is directly in the path of the rocket engine. Now, he isnt being hurt, but the bad guys are able to detect a measurable drop in his aura through the instruments they have recording all this. Not a critical drain, but its there and its fairly significant. That means they can actually hurt him with enough applied force, and its not at the planet busting level.

Its possible in that instant they know more about how supermans powers work than superman does. They can also see how the sun basically recharges him in seconds. So that lets lex know in order to beat superman, he has to keep him isolated from the sun AND find a way to put a massive drain on his abilities in order to make him vulnerable. Its finally something different than drop superman into a pit with a chunk of kryptonite and hope this time it works.

You see? Thats a far more interesting development than having to constantly bring in more and more powerful opponents that force superman to get stronger and stronger just to beat them. Because it trivializes everything he struggled with before that point to learn, "Oh, he was still holding back up till now"

[Kitten Champion]

and Comic book has ages that conclude the story of that version of each character. We just had one end last year.

Also, I'd like to direct you to Naruto which has been running since 1998, it is now 2013. While Superman is infinitely more guilty of running on for longer, manga is far from innocent, and then we have things like Sentai series which have been going on since the 60's. or The Mazinger series (In mecha) which has been going on just as long, or Astroboy which is still running to my knowledge albeit not in it's original magna form since 1952.

It's a matter of American Comics being before manga in this sense that Astroboy wasn't earlier.

So no, what you're saying is only true in the manga you've read. =p

Naruto has been running the same story with the same author since 1999 --it's an epic fantasy with illustrations -- that goes for the other big Jump series as well. They will have a conclusion, a beginning/middle/end type deal. Naruto as a character has developed, his powers have reached their height, and the finish line is clearly visible. Then, through their own methods, Jump'll find something else entirely to print as they've done in the past.

You can claim that Japanese comics fall into the same sort of eternity as American Superheroes, but it's not close to true for 99% of them. Even then only to a degree. Sentai, putting aside its a different medium, is constantly changing characters, settings, and general ideas with each show. The format is the same, everything else is up for grabs. Mazinger is quite old, it's also as diverse as the Gundam franchise... apparently -- never did like it. Tezuka stopped publishing his Astroboy in the 60's, it would only be rebooted briefly during the early 00's, well after his death -- that's hardly equivalent.

The manga that last the longest? Comedies and sport dramas.

[The Glyphstone]

His disguise was way better in the christopher reeve movies. He didnt look like a hugely muscular man, so give him thick nerd glasses, some loose geeky clothing, and a nervous stutter and boom, totally different guy. On the other hand, in the JLU cartoon, he looked like he barely cared enough to cover up his costume before going into work. He looked like a freaking man mountain, wore the thinnest framed glasses he could, and never even changed his posture, his hair, or even his personality any. Yeah there were slight differences in personality, but not like reeves clark/superman switch.

Yeah - the first time I saw the original Reeves Superman, I was amazed at how effectively he pulled off the transition from Clark to Kal-El just through his posture and voice, even before he changed costume.

[Traab]

Yeah - the first time I saw the original Reeves Superman, I was amazed at how effectively he pulled off the transition from Clark to Kal-El just through his posture and voice, even before he changed costume.

I suppose thats the benefit to hiring a GOOD actor to play the role. :smalltongue: But yeah, that was most impressive. I do think one of the biggest differences though was the general build of reeve. He wasnt a bulky muscular man with broad shoulders, even while in superman costume. Being lean and ripped is WAY easier to hide than being bulky and muscular. Its the same for heroes like spiderman. Once again, yeah the man is likely rock solid and ripped, but unless Peter is at the beach and working on his tan, noone would ever know. A loose shirt hides an awful lot in that case.

I did want to say one thing in partial defense to power creep superman and how his current status makes the older issues of guys like metallo punching him through buildings seems strange. I recall reading somewhere that superman was talking about what it meant for him to be invulnerable. Im paraphrasing, but here is the best I can remember.

"I always have to remember to give way when someone bumps into me. If I dont, its like they slam into a brick wall and they get hurt. So I had to make it a habit to flinch, or recoil, or be knocked back by something as simple as some jock trying to shoulder his way past me, for fear that if I didnt, he would break his arm."

Basically, he gets knocked on his ass out of habit. He is USED to taking a hit and letting it move him. Its become a subconscious habit at this point. Its why even though he gets sent flying through 6 office buildings, an anvil factory, and face first through an exploding missile, he isnt hurt, because he is freaking invulnerable, and he just let his body be moved out of instinct.

It may or may not be a cop out, but its one that actually makes some sort of sense. You can understand the basic concept. He would have to learn to react like a normal person to being hit or else his secret would have been out the first time a bully shoved him and sprained both his wrists while falling over himself.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Except, and this is truly significant, manga have conclusions. The main character reaches its acme nearing the finality of the overarching story, to deal with the End Boss -- and then the narrative's over. They might think of a way to prolong the story with some silly tactic like being depowered, but a manga series will inevitably conclude at some point.

Manga, for all its faults, is extremely sensitive to power dynamics in their stories, even the most outlandish ones.

I'd suggest far more then just having conclusions what's more important is that overwhelmingly manga have a single driving creator behind them. It much easier to stick to a long term game plan when you presumably have one of some nature.

While I wouldn't want to call it always true there's certainly a trend for when say anime adaptations write their own script to be considered of lesser quality.

On the other end its probably also significant that say Chris Claremont's 17 year run on X-men largely built the franchise and to some degree modern comics as a medium. I can think of lesser sized examples as well.


and Comic book has ages that conclude the story of that version of each character. We just had one end last year.

Also, I'd like to direct you to Naruto which has been running since 1998, it is now 2013. While Superman is infinitely more guilty of running on for longer, manga is far from innocent, and then we have things like Sentai series which have been going on since the 60's. or The Mazinger series (In mecha) which has been going on just as long, or Astroboy which is still running to my knowledge albeit not in it's original magna form since 1952.

You are equating things that aren't even similar along with some factual errors there.

Astroboy has not been "running" since 1952 unless you mean in print. Since the god of manga passed away its had an '03 vintage anime series and the '09 film. Before that you have tv series in the 60s and the 80s while the manga ran from 52-68. Notice the major gaps in there? And the medium switching.

Mazinger is a better case and keeps going since Go Nagai apparently wants to keep it going. Here though unless I'm mistaken you aren't seeing any continual run. You see instead: a series, a few years break, an new sequel series. Some are side events or retellings of thing. This all suggests to me though I don't follow Mazinger that each is effectively standalone, you can maybe be enriched if you watch a new series with the old, but they don't require it. And have will have new characters

Super Sentai has been going only since the 70s and is a completely new series each time. Crossover is limited mostly to special events. Only the first few five Power Rangers seasons tried to maintain a continuity of events, after that they followed their Sentai source and every new season is a new cast, can be viewed independently, and ends after an amount of time. The whole thing can be loosely connected maybe but it isn't of any importance.

Differences between comic book ages and writer transitions are far less grand in American comics.

Now yes Naruto has been running a long time now, but it is nearing its conclusion. We might still have a hundred something chapters but its the final arc however bloated the final battle will be. Bleach is in the same boat, and heck continuing past its final battle got its anime cancelled. One Piece will outlive both of them in all likelihood but then Oda has proved far more capable of setting thing up over a long time frame.

However there's a difference to be found where however long these series may be and they remain essentially one story. Eventually they end and remain one unified body of work. Their analogue in American comics isn't collecting all issues of Action Comics, but in collecting all the volumes of Sandman. The former might have some great runs or individually awesome stories, but isn't actually a continuous story from first to last like the latter.

[Metahuman1]

It occurs to me that part of the problem is trying to have the guy fight multiple levels of threats.


Were trying to make things that are local city, local country, local planet, local solar system, local galaxy, native universe and Multiyverse all be equally threatening to the guy.


To a somewhat lesser extent, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, Thor, Dr. Strange, several members of the X-men, Ms Marvel, Supergirl/Powergirl, Dr. Fate, and a number of other characters have this exact same problem.


It's like a D&D Party composed of a complete Warrior Samurai, a Truenamer, a Factotum and a Wizard. If you challenge one, you either kill the weaker member's or bore the hell out of the stronger ones when they crub stomp you out of existence.


Hmmm, maybe marvel and DC should consider keeping characters combat alliances restricted to a sort of Tier Rating?

Sorta like getting the Wizard to Run a Beguiler, the True Namer to run a Binder and the Complete Warrior Samurai to run a Warblade?

Or getting the Wizard to go Warmage, the Factotum to Go Expert, and the True Namer to be an Adept?

[Ramza00]

Superman is like 6 ft 7 ins or something, correct? Is that canon? Because that's how everything depicts him. If not that huge, he's at least as big and tall as The Rock.

What gets me is that he has no shrinking powers... so he's just as huge and imposing when being Clark Kent.
According to the dc comics wiki
6 foot 3 inches
235 lbs

Christopher Reeves was 6 foot 4 inches
When he was cast he was about 188 lbs. He said he then gained about 30 lbs of muscle before appearing in Superman 1. So that is about 215 to 220
http://www.chrisreevehomepage.com/m-movie1.html

[Devonix]

one thing I find very strange is all of the talk about Superman fighting bank robbers and such. I've been reading his books for years and he pretty much only deals with low level threats at the start of his career or in something that takes up less than half an issue as a B plot. Most of his enemies are world conqurers and such.

[Traab]

Thats because it isnt that interesting. Hell we dont see much of a big deal made of SPIDERMAN catching bank robbers, and those are actually far closer to his level than for many other heroes. Its more used as filler to show that yes, while he is busy beating up doc ock or venom or whatever, he also takes care of the small scale stuff in between. Superman probably spends 5 seconds taking out a bank robbery or a half second swatting a purse snatcher on his way towards something that actually takes a little effort for him to stop. There is no point in dwelling on it unless its something like robbers hired to break into lexcorp to steal some super weapon only to have it turned out lex set it all up so he had an excuse to use it on superman. Or something to that effect at least.

[Fan]

Naruto has been running the same story with the same author since 1999 --it's an epic fantasy with illustrations -- that goes for the other big Jump series as well. They will have a conclusion, a beginning/middle/end type deal. Naruto as a character has developed, his powers have reached their height, and the finish line is clearly visible. Then, through their own methods, Jump'll find something else entirely to print as they've done in the past.

You can claim that Japanese comics fall into the same sort of eternity as American Superheroes, but it's not close to true for 99% of them. Even then only to a degree. Sentai, putting aside its a different medium, is constantly changing characters, settings, and general ideas with each show. The format is the same, everything else is up for grabs. Mazinger is quite old, it's also as diverse as the Gundam franchise... apparently -- never did like it. Tezuka stopped publishing his Astroboy in the 60's, it would only be rebooted briefly during the early 00's, well after his death -- that's hardly equivalent.

The manga that last the longest? Comedies and sport dramas.

It was also adopted by another writer in the 80's, kept running in animated format well through the 90's on Adult Swim, has had multiple movies in that gap.

While it isn't continuous, it has kept running, and Sentai does have continuity if you actually watch it. And as another example Kamen Rider which has affirmed in multiple rider's stories that every rider is still canon for the sake of crossover events, is in possession of a manga, and has been running since 1971.

Keep in mind that modern Superman was completely rebooted and handed over to different writers in Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1986 if we're going to count X stopping "their" story then Superman's only been running for a few weeks now. :smalltongue:

While not as long, it is again, only because it exists BECAUSE OF American Comics, and the predecessor we're talking about happens to be the world's first superhero.

[Kitten Champion]

I'd suggest far more then just having conclusions what's more important is that overwhelmingly manga have a single driving creator behind them. It much easier to stick to a long term game plan when you presumably have one of some nature.

While I wouldn't want to call it always true there's certainly a trend for when say anime adaptations write their own script to be considered of lesser quality.

On the other end its probably also significant that say Chris Claremont's 17 year run on X-men largely built the franchise and to some degree modern comics as a medium. I can think of lesser sized examples as well.


I agree whole heartily. Naruto's character and physical development, the overarching events in the world, everything, it was planned out to some degree by the author. Having an overpoweringly strong Naruto at this point isn't an issue, because you know Kishimoto spent time developing that strength (in a variety of ways) in order to conclude the story he's been writing for the last thirteen years. That's the distinction I was trying to draw.

It's the same for, say, Rand al'Thor.

They have... I think they're called character arcs. Their character development is directly paralleled by their strength.

[Fan]

I agree whole heartily. Naruto's character and physical development, the overarching events in the world, everything, it was planned out to some degree by the author. Having an overpoweringly strong Naruto at this point isn't an issue, because you know Kishimoto spent time developing that strength (in a variety of ways) in order to conclude the story he's been writing for the last thirteen years. That's the distinction I was trying to draw.

It's the same for, say, Rand al'Thor.

They have... I think they're called character arcs. Their character development is directly paralleled by their strength.

Superman has this as well, he just starts at a higher level of power.

Training in martial arts with Batman, boxing with Wildcat, his thousand years of battle experience in Valhalla fighting magical demons, his training with Mongul the second to unlock his mental barriers, his training to master Torquasm Vo to defeat Dominus, his adaption of the Eradicator protocol to fight Solaris the Tyrant Sun. The guy isn't without his share of tutors that have helped make him as great as he is.

The difference is that superman's story is NOT about the fight to become the best, but rather the struggle of an alien adapting to a new home and accepting the side of himself that makes him so different from the people he was raised by, and wants to be like. The progressions in character development are emotional ones that are directly linked to power growth.


You just have to read the comics to see this, rather than individual scans where it shows the arc ending feats of strength, power, or durability. You really need to read the comics in order to understand this.

[gooddragon1]

My personal answer to the Powercurve is to do two things.

1: Necessary force: He works the lower level guys with a deliberate effort to not hurt them more then he has to to keep property damage and casualty's minimized. Sorta like how a real world cops. Also helps explain why guys like toyman and Lex are alive still.

2: Make him fight guys that ARE at his power level. Make him fight Mongole, Darksied, Zod, Bizarro, Manchester Black, guys who can actually freaking MAKE him fight.

Don't make Intergang and Prankster and such the focus of story-lines as much.


Sorta like Marvel wouldn't Make Dormammu consistently fight Punisher, Daredevil and Captain America, they make him fight Dr. Strange and Thor and Ms. Marvel.

It's a d&d campaign with high fantasy and I'm really just trying to approximate superman. I don't think I'll get to DR 50 but I'm having fun all the same.

Also, I can just imagine how Lex would react to JJ's articles about superman.

[Soras Teva Gee]

It's like a D&D Party composed of a complete Warrior Samurai, a Truenamer, a Factotum and a Wizard. If you challenge one, you either kill the weaker member's or bore the hell out of the stronger ones when they crub stomp you out of existence.


I've long held that a few judicious houserules could radically alter the balance of power and keep things interesting for *most* classes presuming a reasonable balance of activities. Without resorting to outright Kryptonite all the time.

However I think you have the seed of a point in here.


Thats because it isnt that interesting. Hell we dont see much of a big deal made of SPIDERMAN catching bank robbers, and those are actually far closer to his level than for many other heroes.

However we all sort of accept that in between installments we see most proverbial superheroes are out catching proverbial bankrobbers.

I think the difference comes in that Spidey its still reasonable that it happen, when you get up to casually planet juggling its more problematic. Why isn't Superman zipping around the universe stopping Dinosaur killing asteroids between issues? That's more appropriate for some of the more out there feats involved.



While it isn't continuous, it has kept running, and Sentai does have continuity if you actually watch it. And as another example Kamen Rider which has affirmed in multiple rider's stories that every rider is still canon for the sake of crossover events, is in possession of a manga, and has been running since 1971.

Keep in mind that modern Superman was completely rebooted and handed over to different writers in Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1986 if we're going to count X stopping "their" story then Superman's only been running for a few weeks now. :smalltongue:

There's continuity and continuity. An occasional crossover or shared history is one thing, but even where they exist I've yet to see anywhere but comics where they are of such nominal importance.

Let's take the Gundam franchise. It began with a single universe that was much of its history. Yet overtime it was decided that the UC setting had run its course and no full length series has gone back. And even before that I can maybe enjoy Zeta Gundam more for having seen the original Gundam, but it still stands on its own with its own protagonist who has their own personal arc. And those stories that do go back to the UC keep that trend. They don't drag Amuro out of his grave to pilot an continually upgraded Nu Gundam every time, they go and explore some other new character.

And in the mean time the franchise is broken up by series with completely new settings. Sure they have their resemblances, but they remain resemblances however strong. Even the damn Char Clones.

Now certainly comics try to develop new heroes too at a pretty steady rate. Yet the even should they stick around... they certainly never seem to replace any of the originals for long.


While not as long, it is again, only because it exists BECAUSE OF American Comics, and the predecessor we're talking about happens to be the world's first superhero.

That's a somewhat tricky standard to meet. Superman is certainly the codifier for the American comicbook superhero but the underlying idea is ancient in various forms. Hercules, King Arthur, etc and so forth. And manga themselves do not share overly much with superhero comics either by much the same token. Superman is emblematic of one particular and distinctive genre only, manga is more simply a medium which has developed its own distinctive and separate genres.

Even taking as completely true doesn't make that anymore relevant by default either.


It's the same for, say, Rand al'Thor.

They have... I think they're called character arcs. Their character development is directly paralleled by their strength.

Yes a character arc. Most particularly for protagonists the Hero's Journey AKA the proverbial Hero with a Thousand Faces.

And Rand and the WoT are a good case of how a change of creator pokes at the contiguous nature. Sanderson may be better/worse/equal to Jordan, but even when following a scripted and detailed course there's still detectable differences in final product. I never realized how Jordan seems to have deliberrately chosen his words to avoid Latin in his "English" in what I guess was a subtle statement on the culture of Randland and Translation Convention.

Anyway by present events yeah we can see that Naruto is reaching the "end" of his story. The Big Bads will be vanquished, he'll probably become Hokage, marry Hinata, and settle down to have kids. There's tales to be told in there, but they are fundamentally different and not something so readily done by heroic fiction, Naruto ceases to be your typical protagonist. It might be interesting but its much more difficult to make a threat have weight in a way that will catch popular imagination.

Nobody tells stories about kings that rule well and justly and pat down problems before they get to be quite the threat the king had to face to become king. They tell stories about the less experienced knights that go and do that on the king's behalf, and the king becomes a supporting character. Trying to actually top the epic told just doesn't work out well that often though.

However Superman must exist in a more static manner so long as he is going to be published. Or be subjected to a cycle of increasingly meaningless inflation. As a character he can't end which means his climax inherently lacks a measure of weight for development as a character. Its a very different thing.

[Prime32]

While it isn't continuous, it has kept running, and Sentai does have continuity if you actually watch it. And as another example Kamen Rider which has affirmed in multiple rider's stories that every rider is still canon for the sake of crossover events, is in possession of a manga, and has been running since 1971.Kamen Rider/Super Sentai inter-canon is fuzzy at best, and often contradicts itself (such as Decade placing every Rider in a separate universe). We're talking about franchises where the Earth gets invaded/destroyed/corrupted by aliens dozens of times, then saved by Kamen Riders, and yet no one knows what a Kamen Rider is. Where only one sentai team exists at a time, yet multiple teams have records of operating continuously for centuries. And let's not get started on how Precures don't age between appearances...

Basically, it can be summed up as "every season exists in its own continuity, except when a crossover would be cool".

Also, the Kamen Rider Spirits manga is a separate continuity.


Keep in mind that modern Superman was completely rebooted and handed over to different writers in Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1986 if we're going to count X stopping "their" story then Superman's only been running for a few weeks now. :smalltongue:They're still sequels though; it's a transformed version of the old universe, with dangling plot threads. Lots of writers have characters show up and declare that they survived the rewrite of the universe, or have Batman refer to Robins who no longer exist, or whatnot.

[Somewhere]

Kamen Rider also has had giant gaps in the 80's and 90's. The bulk of the franchise is from the 70's and then from 2000 on.
Continuity-wise, it depends on who and when you're asking. Original through Stronger all definitely take place in the same world. Skyrider (1979) started off as a reboot, but then got merged back with prior continuity eventually. When looking at the ZX special (1984), all riders up to ZX are part of that continuity. Black was a standalone reboot, but then supposedly Black RX punted it back into the same continuity as all the previous riders towards the end.
Shin, ZO, and J from the 90's are their own continuities, except for that ZO and J crossover. Being specials and a movie, they don't exactly get much acknowledgement. Also, my saying that KR had giant gaps in the 90's was an understatement. Shin, ZO, J, and the 9 minute crossover between ZO and J add up to a total runtime of 192 minutes.
Then in the Heisei era, Kuuga through Kiva (2000-2008) are their own individual continuities, with Decade being its own multiverse thing with alternate versions of Kuuga through Kiva.
Then I hear that starting from Double and on, they're sort of in the same continuity? I'm not sure since I haven't actually watched recent KR. Supposedly the recent crossover movies ignore Kuuga through Kiva, as well as Showa riders after Stronger.

Things like Sentai and Kamen Rider are better off described as their own franchises, as opposed to series.

[Deepbluediver]

You just have to read the comics to see this, rather than individual scans where it shows the arc ending feats of strength, power, or durability. You really need to read the comics in order to understand this.

Yeah, but the issue is that the writers keep resetting the universe, and telling the same story over and over again. There's only 1 Naruto (and at least Gundam uses nominally different characters).

It's kind of like if Forgotten Realms announced that they had bought the rights to Harry Potter and where getting R.A. Salvatore to write a new series with all the same plots and the same characters and the same ending, but with the twist that "magic" is just super-advanced alien/atlantian technology.

[Jayngfet]

Kamen Rider/Super Sentai inter-canon is fuzzy at best, and often contradicts itself (such as Decade placing every Rider in a separate universe). We're talking about franchises where the Earth gets invaded/destroyed/corrupted by aliens dozens of times, then saved by Kamen Riders, and yet no one knows what a Kamen Rider is. Where only one sentai team exists at a time, yet multiple teams have records of operating continuously for centuries. And let's not get started on how Precures don't age between appearances...

Basically, it can be summed up as "every season exists in its own continuity, except when a crossover would be cool".

Also, the Kamen Rider Spirits manga is a separate continuity.

They're still sequels though; it's a transformed version of the old universe, with dangling plot threads. Lots of writers have characters show up and declare that they survived the rewrite of the universe, or have Batman refer to Robins who no longer exist, or whatnot.

Yeah, Riders can spend decades not even pretending to care about continuity.

There's an entire stretch of time from the early 80's to the start of the 10's when even pretending to care was incredibly rare.

I mean now, currently, they're mangling continuity by making a timeline that's literally impossible in two or three different ways, but it only took them three years to screw it up instead of three decades.

[Devonix]

Yeah, but the issue is that the writers keep resetting the universe, and telling the same story over and over again. There's only 1 Naruto (and at least Gundam uses nominally different characters).

It's kind of like if Forgotten Realms announced that they had bought the rights to Harry Potter and where getting R.A. Salvatore to write a new series with all the same plots and the same characters and the same ending, but with the twist that "magic" is just super-advanced alien/atlantian technology.

But they don't have the same ending. Silver Age Superman ended with Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow. The Character that came around after that had the same name but was completely different as were the enemies he faced. That character came to an end with the Rein of Doomsday story. And now we have a New Superman who is the same as the old only in name and what the character stands for. Their histories Enemies and such are all different.

Comparing one to the other would be like comparing. the Christopher Nolan Batman movies to the Tim Burton ones. They are that different.

[MLai]

But they don't have the same ending. Silver Age Superman ended with Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow. The Character that came around after that had the same name but was completely different as were the enemies he faced. That character came to an end with the Rein of Doomsday story. And now we have a New Superman who is the same as the old only in name and what the character stands for. Their histories Enemies and such are all different.

Comparing one to the other would be like comparing. the Christopher Nolan Batman movies to the Tim Burton ones. They are that different.
That's not a difference.
He is still Kal-El, last son of Krypton (until surviving offworld colonies are inevitably discovered), crash-landed in Kansas, adopted by Ma and Pa Kent, given the name Clark Kent. Calls himself Superman. Wears red and blue with an S.
If he is so different, why do they bother keeping all of the above?
Manga franchises have the courtesy of changing the main character, so that he's a DIFFERENT PERSON. The tropes are all recycled, but a new story is told without being shackled by preconceptions from the old.
You know how Fan keeps saying "If you just read Superman, you'd see all your ideas are 20 years out of date... If you just read Superman, you'd see it's about this and this and not that." Why does he have to keep saying that? Because Superman is still Clark Kent! If it's still the same damn guy, why should casuals assume anything is different? We wouldn't. Clark Kent has too much baggage.

[thubby]

Its like either the writers, or the editors, or the publishing companies or SOMEONE doesn't have a single shred of confidence that people will want to try stuff with actual new characters in it. There's hundreds of heroes in both the Marvel and DC stables and they hardly even get trotted out except for those huge crossover events.


I would argue they are different characters even if they have the same name. even in this thread we've seen "x batman" this and "y batman" that, they are different characters wearing the same mantles.

And while most of the stories are familiar, many things change from small differences. 1 version can be better suited to handle certain aspects of the human experience.

to say nothing of the fact that almost every iteration adds something worth keeping.

for some well known examples, harley quinn only exists because of the 1990's cartoon.
Mr. freeze's back-story has also been lifted into almost every incarnation of him since.


That's not a difference.
He is still Kal-El, last son of Krypton (until surviving offworld colonies are inevitably discovered), crash-landed in Kansas, adopted by Ma and Pa Kent, given the name Clark Kent. Calls himself Superman. Wears red and blue with an S.
If he is so different, why do they bother keeping all of the above?
Manga franchises have the courtesy of changing the main character, so that he's a DIFFERENT PERSON. The tropes are all recycled, but a new story is told without being shackled by preconceptions from the old.
You know how Fan keeps saying "If you just read Superman, you'd see all your ideas are 20 years out of date... If you just read Superman, you'd see it's about this and this and not that." Why does he have to keep saying that? Because Superman is still Clark Kent! If it's still the same damn guy, why should casuals assume anything is different? We wouldn't. Clark Kent has too much baggage.

how many stories does hercules have? Would you even dream of comparing the disney one to the live action "Hercules: The Legendary Journeys"?

heroes are the greek myths of our time. there is a lot of sameness to many of their stories, but the devil of a character, of a person, is in the details.

personally, I regard them as one of the greatest examples of stories that are truly alive.

[Devonix]

That's not a difference.
He is still Kal-El, last son of Krypton (until surviving offworld colonies are inevitably discovered), crash-landed in Kansas, adopted by Ma and Pa Kent, given the name Clark Kent. Calls himself Superman. Wears red and blue with an S.
If he is so different, why do they bother keeping all of the above?
Manga franchises have the courtesy of changing the main character, so that he's a DIFFERENT PERSON. The tropes are all recycled, but a new story is told without being shackled by preconceptions from the old.
You know how Fan keeps saying "If you just read Superman, you'd see all your ideas are 20 years out of date... If you just read Superman, you'd see it's about this and this and not that." Why does he have to keep saying that? Because Superman is still Clark Kent! If it's still the same damn guy, why should casuals assume anything is different? We wouldn't. Clark Kent has too much baggage.

Let's take a look at one of his iconic villans. Lex Luthor

Silver Age Luthor was a criminal mastermind Mad scientist character.
Modern Age Luthor was a slick buisnessman that kept lawyers and such to keep his nose clean and untouchable.

Same villan different backstories Both his arch nemesis. But because they were so different from each other, Superman was also a different character in relation to that.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah revamping Luthor is nice and all which is probably why it tends to show up in adaptations, but its not a wholesale break.

There's really no substitute for having a new main cast in a brand new story.

[Devonix]

Yeah revamping Luthor is nice and all which is probably why it tends to show up in adaptations, but its not a wholesale break.

There's really no substitute for having a new main cast in a brand new story.

Silver Age Superman he started his career after the death of his parents and then went to training the fortress. Flashbacks of how they taught him and how much he missed them.

Themes of isolation

Modern Age Superman his parents were both alive during most of his career and an important part of his supporting cast as well as interacting with many other heroes. Many issues would have him going and spending time with them and showing how they still affected his life.

Themes of strong family ties.

Having living parents through most of his career is another thing that made him a drastically different person than his Silver age counterpart, as well as different from the now current New 52 version.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I say again there's really no substitute for a new main cast in a brand new story.

Changing an ongoing story by switching around themes is just not the same as starting a brand new stand alone story. We're talking the Golden versus Silver Age Flashes and Green Lanterns. Blue Beetle. Batman Beyond. That's closer to the sort of transitions practiced by Super Sentai or Gundam. (Or heck James Bond)

And at this point it might just not be do-able. Sure they replace some lower level guys or introduce new heroes, but there seems to be a spandex ceiling on how high they can rise. And the mediums are just... different

[Ramza00]

Sora what is your opinion of the Ultimate Marvel Universe then?

For example in the Ultimate Marvel Universe, Omega Red is a Spiderman villian.

[Devonix]

I say again there's really no substitute for a new main cast in a brand new story.

Changing an ongoing story by switching around themes is just not the same as starting a brand new stand alone story. We're talking the Golden versus Silver Age Flashes and Green Lanterns. Blue Beetle. Batman Beyond. That's closer to the sort of transitions practiced by Super Sentai or Gundam. (Or heck James Bond)

And at this point it might just not be do-able. Sure they replace some lower level guys or introduce new heroes, but there seems to be a spandex ceiling on how high they can rise. And the mediums are just... different

But that was an example of a new main cast. Modern Superman Had so many different people involved as both heroes and villans that you could put it side by side with silver age. and they would be impossible to confuse with one another. And the same with Silver/ Golden age. or Modern/ New 52

There are many characters that just don't exist in other continuities IE his parents, not being alive or Luthor exist as completely different type of character.

Each continuity has always had a wildly different cast.

[MLai]

But that was an example of a new main cast. Modern Superman Had so many different people involved as both heroes and villans that you could put it side by side with silver age. and they would be impossible to confuse with one another. And the same with Silver/ Golden age. or Modern/ New 52
There are many characters that just don't exist in other continuities IE his parents, not being alive or Luthor exist as completely different type of character.
Each continuity has always had a wildly different cast.
Which is why a Jpnese writer would be confused at why you insist on keeping Superman as Clark Kent, and disregard the blatant fact that he's been 30 for 70 years now. He would ask, "If everything is now different about him, internally and externally, then why don't you just write a new character picking up the mantle? That's what we do."

When things repeat for the same character over and over, there is no finality, no consequence, and hence no weight to any of his experiences. I don't care what's going to happen to him next issue because it never matters. Even if he stays dead, it just means next month the New Age Of Superman starts, with the same guy.

[Kitten Champion]

I think I've seen the Venom story arc be done at least 8 times now, probably will again when the rebooted movie franchise gets back around to it. It's was -- in my opinion -- a great story arc... the first three times. It kind of makes me cringe now.

I don't care if Venom is an alien or a genetic construct produced by Doctor Connors, Richard Parker, or Otto Octavius -- it's the same story of the consequences of a Faustian bargain with a character defined by his superego.

The themes are interesting, the story is interesting -- Faust is awesome. This could be the focus of the story, it doesn't need to move on to the next arc, and the next arc after that.

[Devonix]

Which is why a Jpnese writer would be confused at why you insist on keeping Superman as Clark Kent, and disregard the blatant fact that he's been 30 for 70 years now. He would ask, "If everything is now different about him, internally and externally, then why don't you just write a new character picking up the mantle? That's what we do."

When things repeat for the same character over and over, there is no finality, no consequence, and hence no weight to any of his experiences. I don't care what's going to happen to him next issue because it never matters. Even if he stays dead, it just means next month the New Age Of Superman starts, with the same guy.

But it's not the same guy. When the Superman from Kingdom Come spent a year in the main DCU He joined the Justice Society Now because of his ecperiences and different continuity he was a different person. Everyone treated him as something other than just the same guy they knew as Superman.

The world treated him as different, and he treated the world differently.

When New 52 Happened

I wasn't annoyed about it because I didn't want to watch the same old story repeat itself.

I was upset that the characters that I spent so many years reading about would be gone and I would never see them again. MY Superman and his cast of characters being among them.

[Devonix]

I must say that I do get the confusion I really do. Its something that I had before I started reading comics more and more. Its one of the reasons also for actually changing the issue numbers with the reboot.

[Prime32]

I was upset that the characters that I spent so many years reading about would be gone and I would never see them again. MY Superman and his cast of characters being among them.Comic book characters act completely differently depending on the writer anyway; Pre-reboot Superman written by Author X is going to be closer to Post-reboot Superman written by Author X, than Pre-reboot written by Author Y.

I mean, there was a fairly recent Captain America story written by Warren Ellis where this (http://www.4thletter.net/wp-content/uploads//prv11040_pg5.jpg) happens. If you can't see it, Cap just had an entire room of people tortured because one of them might be a villain. Captain America. :smallannoyed:

[Kitten Champion]

Comic book characters act completely differently depending on the writer anyway; Pre-reboot Superman written by Author X is going to be closer to Post-reboot Superman written by Author X, than Pre-reboot written by Author Y.

I mean, there was a fairly recent Captain America story written by Warren Ellis where this (http://www.4thletter.net/wp-content/uploads//prv11040_pg5.jpg) happens. If you can't see it, Cap just had an entire room of people tortured because one of them might be a villain. Captain America. :smallannoyed:

Ellis really liked 24 apparently.

[Soras Teva Gee]

But it's not the same guy.

Maybe on closer examination it intellectually is but its not a clean break. There just isn't one.

You can call it shallow and judging by appearances or whatever but its a case where the surface matters. Its like if you took two candies of the same size, shape, and wrapper but had different fillings in each. Now should people maybe take a bite to found out that one is chocolate and the other vanilla?

Maybe. But step back a sec and ask a marketing guy and he'll tell you that if you want people to think about your candy differently it needs to look different. Because very few people are going to actually be sold by your indistinguishable candies and you are demanding too much for people to bother taking time out of their busy lives to find out. So put your chocolate candy in a red wrapper and vanilla in a gold one.

Don't believe me? Look at say this very board how Superman still catches crap for Pre-COIE nonsense like flat-out making up powers. All. The. Time.



I mean, there was a fairly recent Captain America story written by Warren Ellis where this (http://www.4thletter.net/wp-content/uploads//prv11040_pg5.jpg) happens. If you can't see it, Cap just had an entire room of people tortured because one of them might be a villain. Captain America. :smallannoyed:

What....

I literally cannot express the rage I feel at that right now. And now I have to go throw out and hate on Nextwave for eternity for being produced by a repugnant pile of diarrhetic ****.

Yes he deserves it for that kind of behavior I neither forgive nor forget.

[Dienekes]

Alright I've used this argument before, but it still works I guess.

Superman being Clark Kent is a staple and will survive, and I would argue it should. These stories are really not meant to be seen as a continuous storyline and arc, while those are indeed great methods of stroytelling they are not the only ones that can be used.

If you don't think changing the themes and story setting is a vast change I would like to introduce you toSherlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes), and Sherlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_%28TV_series%29), and Sherlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes_%282009_film%29), and Sherlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_%28TV_series%29), and well I'm sure you get the idea. In each of these adaptations Sherlock is a brilliant, if odd, detective who is helped by his partner Watson in solving outrageous crimes. In most of them he faces against the criminal mastermind and arch-villain Moriarty in a battle of wits to see which is smarter.

And yet, in each of them they are distinctly different and unique. When done right the Superman character and relaunches are exactly like that. Relooking at old stories through new lenses and with new ideas. And they can be made amazing. Sure, this style isn't for everyone, but for others (such as myself) it works in creating engaging unique stories with a character that I love.

Of course there are some oddities with this method of writing, and sometimes the decisions made seems confusing. But if you go into it with the premise that these are only partially related stories about great characters it can be a great experience.

[Devonix]

Comic book characters act completely differently depending on the writer anyway; Pre-reboot Superman written by Author X is going to be closer to Post-reboot Superman written by Author X, than Pre-reboot written by Author Y.

I mean, there was a fairly recent Captain America story written by Warren Ellis where this (http://www.4thletter.net/wp-content/uploads//prv11040_pg5.jpg) happens. If you can't see it, Cap just had an entire room of people tortured because one of them might be a villain. Captain America. :smallannoyed:

:smallfurious: What the hell am I looking at?!?

[comicshorse]

I mean, there was a fairly recent Captain America story written by Warren Ellis where this (http://www.4thletter.net/wp-content/uploads//prv11040_pg5.jpg) happens. If you can't see it, Cap just had an entire room of people tortured because one of them might be a villain. Captain America. :smallannoyed:

WTF
Seriously that's a bluff right, right ?

[Traab]

Bah, he is Captain America, not Saint America. You really think in WW2 there wasnt torture being committed by the allied side that he knew about and didnt stop because they needed information? Bullocks.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Bah, he is Captain America, not Saint America. You really think in WW2 there wasnt torture being committed by the allied side that he knew about and didnt stop because they needed information? Bullocks.

"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — No, you move."

-Amazing Spider-Man, #537 (http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/455693.html)

And he isn't a saint, but only because he's still alive. And he doesn't get to hide behind shallow pathetic sophistry like "I object but my friends here don't" because he knows what pathetic nonsense that sort of compromising of principle is and will have none of it. He is righteous, not simply a paladin but an exalted paladin.

Warren Ellis can **** himself.

[Devonix]

"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — No, you move."

-Amazing Spider-Man, #537 (http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/455693.html)

And he isn't a saint, but only because he's still alive. And he doesn't get to hide behind shallow pathetic sophistry like "I object but my friends here don't" because he knows what pathetic nonsense that sort of compromising of principle is and will have none of it. He is righteous, not simply a paladin but an exalted paladin.

Warren Ellis can **** himself.

This. As much as I would dislike Captain America using torture to get info that is desperatly needed. I would rather that happen and he do it himself than do something like what he did here.

[Traab]

"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — No, you move."

-Amazing Spider-Man, #537 (http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/455693.html)

And he isn't a saint, but only because he's still alive. And he doesn't get to hide behind shallow pathetic sophistry like "I object but my friends here don't" because he knows what pathetic nonsense that sort of compromising of principle is and will have none of it. He is righteous, not simply a paladin but an exalted paladin.

Warren Ellis can **** himself.

Meh, all that quote means is Captain America says if he decides something is ok then its ok, period, end of discussion, Its actually a really really bad speech for its implications. He is literally saying, "^%&^% the world, if YOU believe its ok then you go do it!" So if Captain America decides that torture is needed here, but feels too squeamish to do it himself, then he will plant himself like a tree at the river of truth and tell his comrades, "No, YOU torture them."

[Dienekes]

Meh, all that quote means is Captain America says if he decides something is ok then its ok, period, end of discussion, Its actually a really really bad speech for its implications. He is literally saying, "^%&^% the world, if YOU believe its ok then you go do it!" So if Captain America decides that torture is needed here, but feels too squeamish to do it himself, then he will plant himself like a tree at the river of truth and tell his comrades, "No, YOU torture them."

There's always been two ways to interpret that quote. The way it was obviously intended to be interpreted as: "It doesn't matter what peer pressure you face, do not compromise your morals, even if it would make your life easier. Always try to do what's right." Or the way that a lot of these arguments against it go. "I'm right, I know I'm right and so I can do whatever I want, and screw you guys who disagree with me."

The speech, while very visceral and powerful sounding, does lead to this mix of interpretation. Which is why you have to look at Cap's character and the events leading up to the Civil War. Did Cap listen to the arguments made for Registration and try to argue against him before he started his little revolt, or did he just go screw you guys I'm not doing this (It was the former, if memory serves).

Because that's Cap. He would not condone torture, he is very much the take the third way good guy in the likes of Superman, Captain Kirk, and even characters like Druss. Now the pros and cons of this philosophy can (and in part has) been explored in his character. But, that rejection of his ideals to condone torture, that's very much not him. And from what we've seen of his time in war, it never was.

[Traab]

Too be honest, im mainly doing this to troll, I dont actually know that much about the life and times of Cap. I just thought to myself, "Come on, you really think american troops didnt torture the enemy for information in ww2?" Its certainly distasteful, but hardly inconceivable. But thats random troops, not cap.

[Kitten Champion]

He uses a shield as a primary weapon. That implies quite a bit about his character.

The context of the page is unclear, I've seen heroes make desperate bluffs before. I just finished watching Spider-Man dangle a man off the side of a roof, he had no intention of letting the guy fall. If Cap's being sincere, then screw'em. I'm sick of torture propaganda.

[Dienekes]

Too be honest, im mainly doing this to troll, I dont actually know that much about the life and times of Cap. I just thought to myself, "Come on, you really think american troops didnt torture the enemy for information in ww2?" Its certainly distasteful, but hardly inconceivable. But thats random troops, not cap.

Oh undoubtedly some American troops did. But do not suggest that all of them did, or were ok with others doing so. I know at least one story from an old professor (not from WWII admittedly) in which soldiers in his squad almost shot each other because one wanted to torture a captured soldier for information and others very much disagreed with that idea.

The character of Captain America is basically the paragon model of good in the Marvel Universe. And that responsibility can lead to a lot of interesting stories where his concepts of right and wrong are teased and tested, but utterly disregarding them? With such a flimsy rationalization? That's poor writing.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah there are ways to put Cap to the test morally. For example I could buy that he'd take a "It was war" line in regard to WWII. Because he went through a hell where sometimes you shoot first, or sneak up and cut a guy's throat so he doesn't sound the alarm. And that in that hell certain things happen.

Which would come around to underlining and reinforcing that nothing today even in the superhero world is close to that brand of madness. But he doesn't just casually pass the buck like its some sarcastic sick joke on his part.

[Ramza00]

Please tell me that Captain America scan is not from the main marvel continuity and is some alternate universe / elseworld etc.

[Metahuman1]

There's always been two ways to interpret that quote. The way it was obviously intended to be interpreted as: "It doesn't matter what peer pressure you face, do not compromise your morals, even if it would make your life easier. Always try to do what's right." Or the way that a lot of these arguments against it go. "I'm right, I know I'm right and so I can do whatever I want, and screw you guys who disagree with me."

The speech, while very visceral and powerful sounding, does lead to this mix of interpretation. Which is why you have to look at Cap's character and the events leading up to the Civil War. Did Cap listen to the arguments made for Registration and try to argue against him before he started his little revolt, or did he just go screw you guys I'm not doing this (It was the former, if memory serves).

Because that's Cap. He would not condone torture, he is very much the take the third way good guy in the likes of Superman, Captain Kirk, and even characters like Druss. Now the pros and cons of this philosophy can (and in part has) been explored in his character. But, that rejection of his ideals to condone torture, that's very much not him. And from what we've seen of his time in war, it never was.



Actually, he spoke out against registration as written, on the grounds that as written, it was one step away form the government telling the supers who the bad guys where and being the only one's making that call. Which, incedentlally, happened later in the timeline, and the government was getting there info form the likes of Norman Osborn.

He didn't go full scale rebellion until Agent Hill (90% sure it was Hill anyway.) tried to take him with a squad of shield operatives holding loaded automatic weapons leveled at him, safety's off and fingers on triggers with orders to fire on her command or if he offered resistance, and ignored repeated verbal warnings that if they didn't get those things barrels out of his face in short order, they weren't gonna like what happened.

That was the break point where he finally said "No, I fought a god damned hell hole of a war against this manner of doing business. I damn lost my best friends for the longest time, lost my first love, lost my whole damn world to stop this sort of thing. I am not going to stand by and allow it now just because the government wanted more power at a time when people were acting on emotion and not logic."

That was how Civil War was started.




Come of think of it, wasn't Ellis one of the writers for Civil War?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Come of think of it, wasn't Ellis one of the writers for Civil War?

Not to my knowledge and he took shots at it in a book until today I would have highly recommended.

Mark Millar was the primary event writer. I can't speak for any of the tie-ins beyond that Ed Brubaker was writing Cap's book at the time (and *very* well) and I think JMS was on Amazing.

[Prime32]

Please tell me that Captain America scan is not from the main marvel continuity and is some alternate universe / elseworld etc.Nope, main canon.

My point is, if Marvel had a reboot that made Cap a paragon-of-good WWII veteran with a female sidekick named Plucky... It makes no sense to say that this is a completely different character, and that the Cap who tortured a bunch of random people is the same one we all know and love.

Whether Superman's surname is "El" or "L", whether he changes clothes in a phone booth or has a Kamen Rider Faiz (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8jGhSANpgA#t=1m10s) thing going on... these are incidental to the character, and I wouldn't really care if they changed from comic to comic without explanation. When the guy's personality changes, that makes him a different character, and that's based on writer, not continuity.

[Dienekes]

Nope, main canon.

My point is, if Marvel had a reboot that made Cap a paragon-of-good WWII veteran with a female sidekick named Plucky... It makes no sense to say that this is a completely different character, and that the Cap who tortured a bunch of random people is the same one we all know and love.

Whether Superman's surname is "El" or "L", whether he changes clothes in a phone booth or has a Kamen Rider Faiz (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8jGhSANpgA#t=1m10s) thing going on... these are incidental to the character, and I wouldn't really care if they changed from comic to comic without explanation. When the guy's personality changes, that makes him a different character, and that's based on writer, not continuity.

Sort of, I understand where you're coming from. But I think you're over-blowing things slightly. The reason why we can all point at the Cap example above as being bad is that there is continuity in his personality. Now some writers may have him react two different ways on edge cases, or emphasize different parts of his personality. But there are certain core character traits that we expect the character to keep no matter the writer, and when those traits are not honored it quickly gets declared dis-continuity, or just poor writing by the fans.

[Gavinfoxx]

Was Superman weak in the black and white TV series?

[Traab]

Was Superman weak in the black and white TV series?

That was faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive too. So I think about on par with the early version of his comics. But I cant be certain as I was REALLY young when they were on the air.

[Soras Teva Gee]

In the old b&w series I once saw him walk through a solid wall Flash-style. So going with no. Except to clumsily thrown guns, they were clearly his kyrptonite.

[anddrevew]

superman is incredible with all his character.I am a great fan of this character.He can do anything he want.