New/ Noob 4e GM with a couple of questions

[Acshunjaq]

Hello All!

Long time listener, first time poster.

So friends and my wife have decided to get into D&D and with me having played some 20 years ago with brothers, etc. I volunteered to DM for them.

We have all the basic components we need, and I downloaded a spreadsheet to help with character creation, etc. So I have a couple of beginner DM questions if you could help me with I'd be grateful!

1) So I see many player skills that that had an attack of "Str. vs. Reflex" (Paladin's Piercing Strike) or "Charisma vs. Will" (On Pain of Death) for example and I'm not sure how to determine these.

I'm familiar with the basic swing mechanic of 1d20 + atk mod vs. AC for hit, but when it says Charisma vs. Will for example does that mean,

1d20 + Charm mod vs. monster's Will score
or
Charm skill vs. monster's Will score straight out


2) Several members of the group decided to roll for their stats. More exciting yes, but some came out somewhat ... unbalanced (e.g. 1 great stat, and some 5-8's type rolls). We used the 4d6 (dropping the lowest roll). There is a concern of a couple of the characters that they will be majorly "gimped' in adventuring. I tried to assure them gear will make a difference, and if I understood the rules correctly, every 4 levels they can add +1 to an attribute (str, dex, etc.). But I know they're worried about getting invested into a character that will play "sub-par". Is there anything I can say, or adjust on the DM to make sure this isn't the case?


3) We've been through 1 encounter so far, but it seemed as though everyone was just using their At-Will ability every round, and once using their encounter ability. Is this how battles progress? We all played MMO's and a couple of folks even commented, it feels like we're just hitting the "2 button" over and over again, making the combat seem 1-dimensional. I try to have the monsters throw some tactics at them to make them adjust their attacks, but aside from the occassional heal, it seems very repetitive. I'm I doing something wrong?


Thank you so much for the help ahead of time, I'm happy to be joining this community and hopefully will have many more questions in weeks to come as my party delves deeper!

[Mando Knight]

Quick rule of thumb: don't play a game until you have read the rulebook at least once or have an experienced player by your side to guide you through it.

1) It's d20 + ½ level + Charisma Modifier + Other Stuff (magic weapons, Expertise, whatever) against the opponent's Will Defense. That's why a lot of sheets have a "Modifier + ½ level" space next to the "Modifier" space, so you can reference it easily. (Heroes of the Fallen Lands pages 19 and following and HoFL pages 41 and following explain this, as do pages 25-26 of the Player's Handbook)

2) Rolling for stats has been dropped as the main method of character creation by Wizards of the Coast for this reason, as explained in the PHB, page 18. (HoFL and other Essentials books, to my knowledge, simply recommend the standard stat arrays... i.e. WotC has been moving away from rolling for stats) You can mitigate for some weaknesses, but the character as rolled will be as rolled... the PHB does recommend that total stat bonuses (the sum of all your ability modifiers) below +4 should be rerolled (same with those above +8).

I recommend that if you roll for stats, they should be done in the open and that either everyone rolls or everyone uses point-buy (or standard arrays, which are generated via the point-buy system).

3) Using your At-Wills as auto-attacks and occasionally using your Encounter powers does get boring without any additional variables. Use monsters that can shift about or try to isolate party members or other tricks to get them to think tactically rather than just rolling Sly Flourish for the dozenth time. Think about how the Special Infected work in Left 4 Dead, if you've played that game.

[NecroRebel]

1. (Stat) vs. (Defense) is handled the same regardless of what the stat and the defense are. Strength vs. AC is handled by rolling 1d20, adding the attacker's Strength bonus and any other relevant attack bonuses, and comparing it to the defender's AC defense. Charisma vs. Will is handled by rolling 1d20, adding the attacker's Strength bonus and any other relevant attack bonuses, and comparing it to the defender's Will defense.

Usually, "relevant attack bonuses" include such things as the proficiency bonus on the weapon if the power has the Weapon keyword, the enhancement bonus on the weapon or implement, possible feat or class bonuses, and possibly other things as well. The short of it, though, is that you always roll 1d20 when you're attacking.

2. Gear won't really make a difference; there is no attribute-boosting equipment in 4e, and everyone should get roughly even amounts of attack-, damage-, and defense-boosting equipment, so the people who you've screwed over at character creation will be screwed over permanently. As a DM, you can fix this problem by having your players remake their characters using a point-buy system. The only other recourse is to use different numbers for enemies for different players, which is a worse idea and harder to keep track of than simply making characters the way you're supposed to make characters.

3. At low levels, that is basically how combat works, yes. As they level up, they'll get more encounter and daily powers. By late Heroic tier, they'll have enough daily powers that they'll likely use one every battle, and enough encounter powers that they'll likely use one every round, with at-will powers being used only once or twice per person per fight.

While 4e combat is less repetitive than older iterations of the system, it still doesn't allow constantly-varied actions. The main problem is probably that your players have successfully identified which of their at-will powers is best and endeavor to use that constantly. You might try to make the monsters act in ways that make the players' "main" at-will less effective than their "secondary" at-will; if the party wizard is using Scorching Burst all the time, move the monsters so that they're not clumped up and so that Scorching Burst can't catch one of them without also catching another player, for instance, to force the use of a single-target power occasionally.

[DrBurr]

3)Check out cover rules, Artillery Monsters, Skirmisher Monsters and Difficult terrain. These 4 things can really change up an Encounters also think of Battles kind of like a scene when designing the Battle make an interesting set and pepper some of the NPCs with interesting lines, for example they fight a Town Guard who marks them have him taunt them while his friends pick off the PCa from the roof top

[ArcturusV]

That said about the Attributes, one of the bigger differences in 4th edition from earlier editions? Having a lopsided character is more or less just as playable as a slightly above average all across character.

In older editions a "Great" character would probably be someone who had 13-15 in several stats, maybe one or two that were 10 or less. In 4th edition the important thing is making sure you jack your class's "Primary Stat" (Listed first in the class section), as high as possible. Other stats being high is just icing on the cake.

As for point 3 and first/low level adventuring.... one thing I can suggest is your DMG has a section which talks about unusual actions/attacks and the damage expressions you might want to use for it, damage types, etc. Make sure that your players know about this (typically by using it against them), and it will have them looking for new options. It can make the action a bit less "Serious" in tone and more like an action movie. Where people are looking for things to jump off of, swing on, knock around, etc. If your combat encounters take place in areas that have lots of interesting little tidbits in it, it makes it easier to do this. Also provides differing terrain which can make things interesting.

So say your party is fighting on a mountain road. The enemy goes and launches something like a Magic Missile and it is described as badly missing the players and hitting the cliff behind them. They'll probably laugh. Then another enemy does it. Then another enemy. They're laughing at the horrible accuracy of the enemy, etc... then all the cumulative punishment causes a small rockslide doing a blaster trap type effect. Now who's laughing?

And they get that into their head that their powers can be used not just to kill enemies, but alter the battlefield indirectly. That they can shape encounters like that, etc. They start thinking about things like that. If the damage is higher than a normal attack would be (Often the case with the limited damage expressions), they look for those payoffs rather than just saying "I magic missile again".

[Acshunjaq]

Thanks for the all the great suggestions and answers guys!

@Mando Knight - I've defininitely read the 4e players handbook and dm guide, but it just wasn't clear enough, "actions speak louder than words so to speak". But I really appreciate your input, I'm glad to have a community like this to bounce ideas off of! :smallsmile:

@ NecroRebel - Makes sense what you said about combat at higher levels. Since they're still lvl. 1 its tough to mental scale how many abilities they will have in the long run (dailies, encounter, etc.

@ DrBurr - I'll definitely re-check those out!

@ArcturusV - Yeah, i think the worst we had was 2 characters had a -3 mod in a lesser stat, so not so egregious that they'll have to reroll. But thats a great idea about the combat evolving the battlefield, I hadn't thought about that before (blame my linear MMO battle experience) but something I'll definitely try to incorporate in their next few battles!

[Kurald Galain]

@ NecroRebel - Makes sense what you said about combat at higher levels. Since they're still lvl. 1 its tough to mental scale how many abilities they will have in the long run (dailies, encounter, etc.

Well, that's why there's a list in the PHB page 27. By level 11, you end up with 3 dailies, 4 encounter powers, and 3 utilities. By that level, you should have one daily for every combat, and one encounter power for every round in combat.

Anyway, if you find level 1 lacking in versatility, try starting at level 5. Most of my friends agree that after you've been playing for a few months, nobody wants to do level 1 ever again, so all our never campaigns start at higher level too.

[tcrudisi]

1. (Stat) vs. (Defense) is handled the same regardless of what the stat and the defense are. Strength vs. AC is handled by rolling 1d20, adding the attacker's Strength bonus and any other relevant attack bonuses, and comparing it to the defender's AC defense. Charisma vs. Will is handled by rolling 1d20, adding the attacker's Strength Charisma bonus and any other relevant attack bonuses, and comparing it to the defender's Will defense.


Fixed your post.

[Ashdate]

Yeah, level 1 can be a bit boring if you've played higher levels, as you've only got access to three powers (plus a daily). There are options to expand your power list at low levels (Themes in particular, and a minor amount of feats), but in general combat starts getting more comfortable once you hit level 5. I would personally start out at level 3 minimum, but I've got an experienced group.

A nice alternative you might wish to try is awarding more "experience" to zip your players up to level 5 quicker, then slowing it down. I personally find that characters gain levels too quickly in the system, but your mileage may vary.

As for combats, my best advice is to add as much difficult/hindering terrain as you think is appropriate for an encounter to make things spicy, then adding a bit more!

[Acshunjaq]

@ tcrudisi - Thank you, I was thinking that, but didn't want to contradict someone who I'm sure has played this longer than I have/

[NecroRebel]

@ NecroRebel - Makes sense what you said about combat at higher levels. Since they're still lvl. 1 its tough to mental scale how many abilities they will have in the long run (dailies, encounter, etc.

As Kurald says, there is a table that lists how many powers you get at any particular level, though oftentimes you'll actually have a few more due to items. It does take more experience to realize what that really means, though; while the DMG suggests having around 4 encounters per day, suggesting an average of one daily power used per encounter at mid-levels and up, it isn't obvious at all that encounters will consistently take 5-6 rounds, thus suggesting an average of one at-will power per encounter at mid-levels and up :smallsmile:


Fixed your post.

Ah, yes, thank you. I think I must have meant to use the same phrasing, but neglected to change all the words I should have.

[Mando Knight]

I've defininitely read the 4e players handbook and dm guide, but it just wasn't clear enough, "actions speak louder than words so to speak".

Alright, it's the PHB 1 and DMG 1 that you have, right? Knowing which books you have will make it easier to help show you how they organized the rules in those books. The next best thing to memorizing the rules is memorizing where the rules can be found... and in games that have multiple books with several hundred pages of different kinds of rules each, neither is very easy.

[huttj509]

Alright, it's the PHB 1 and DMG 1 that you have, right? Knowing which books you have will make it easier to help show you how they organized the rules in those books. The next best thing to memorizing the rules is memorizing where the rules can be found... and in games that have multiple books with several hundred pages of different kinds of rules each, neither is very easy.

Yeah, second the idea of knowing what books are available. Saying "The DMG 2 has great tips on _____" doesn't help if you don't have the DMG 2.

[Tegu8788]

I agree with those suggesting starting at a higher level, even just level 2. That extra utility power makes a big difference, having all those +1/2 levels go from nothing to something, makes you feel a lot more powerful and varied. At low levels you do spend a fair amount of time at-will-ing, but again, as mentioned, using terrain and tactics can shake things up.

And because it hasn't been said outright, unlike in previous editions, the target of any roll is a static number, very rare for a roll vs roll in 4E.

Another suggestion, from when I started, was having my DM give us a couple one-offs. Let us get a better idea of the system, refine our characters, and get some practice before we locked ourselves into each character. Also let us flex our RP muscles, and get used to playing around.

[Acshunjaq]

From my newbie heart, thanks to all for a lot of great input.

I believe we'll be meeting this weekend for another session in their current campaign, and I'll let you know how it goes!

@Mando Knight and @Huttj509

I believe I have first edition volumes of player's handbook, dm guide, and monster manual and then I have the 4e version of the player handbook and dm guide. I played when I was younger with my brother-in-law who had played religiously when he was a kid, so he taught me some of the ropes and bequeathed unto me my first set of books and dies.

[Musco]

With the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide, you can already download Keep on the Shadowfell (free level 1-3 - meaning, they go from level 1 to level 3 during it - adventure on Wizard's website) - the semi-fixed version - and run it, since the module already has the necessary monsters listed, so you won't need the Monster Manual.

This will let your group see what's going on, learn the system, try out the different roles (heck, the module even comes with pre-made characters for each role, if you want to use them) and game a little.

If they like the Powers system and the new Combat, you can try and expand, by giving them more experience towards the end so they "rush" from 3 to 4, since 4th level doesn't make that much of a difference character wise, they just get more powerful, since they gain +1 to 2 attributes, their 1/2 level value increases and they get a new feat, so they're pretty much the same guy from level 3, only "hitting" (by which I also mean succeding at skill checks) better.

This way, you can close the module at level 4 (you can even give them "quest xp" if you think the boss battle will be too easy if they level before it), and, like I said, if they liked it, you could get Monster Vault.

This gives you:

I - Another nice Module for 4th level characters (meaning, you STILL wouldn't have to prepare too much stuff, just read it beforehand to familiarize yourself with it, and perhaps read innovations people on the web have made to improve the module, maybe adding stuff from it);
II - A Monster Manual you can use, since it DOES come with a book chock full of Monsters, most of them being "fixed" versions from the first Monster Manual (since they basically sucked, never threatening the PCs at all, as you'll see from Keep on the Shadowfell, aside from the Irontooth fight - although it's nice, for a start);
III - Custom battle grids, which you can try to use again later, or at least parts of it;
IV - Tokens, correctly-sized, if you don't want to acquire minis (at least for now), to represent most of the monsters in the Monster Vault (and players can use some for them, either).

So, basically, with a VERY small investment (getting the Monster Vault), that doesn't even have to be made right now (since Keep on the Shadowfell you can download for free, and it will take at least 2-3 sessions to finish, depending on how much depth you want to add to it, story-wise), you can take them from level 1 to 5-6, show them the ropes, get used with the system an play a whole bunch of sessions.

After, you'll be left with enough material to create your own adventures from then on, since you'll now have a source for monsters, and you can just get the "MM 3 on a business card" cheat sheet online if you want to create monsters or add some that are not in the book to later games (you'll already be familiar with the monster roles and will have a better idea of what a monster should have as each type of power, what it should do, tactics, etc...), and presto, you can play for quite a while with your group if they liked it so far.

You can think about acquiring other stuff later, but I wouldn't worry too much about it, most groups, if they really like the game, will end up acquiring a lot of stuff along the way (like, say, a Wizard will want to get Arcane Power, so they'll have more options, perhaps splitting the cost with the Warlock; the players might decide to get the Adventurer's Vault, because the magic items in the current books are lacking some oomph, etc...).

Sorry for the long post, I tend to ramble.

[Acshunjaq]

@Musco - Great advice, and thank you for clarifying those books and options for adventures (and yes we're running keep on the shadowfeel currently).


Question about feats!

At level 1 a character learns 1 feat (except humans +1) but I wanted to know what about the Class specific feats. Most classes have about 3 class feats. Must those be "trained" when leveling, or are those Class Feats granted to the class automatically?

E.G. Ranger

Class Features = Fighting Style, Hunter's Quarry and Prime Shot.

So at lvl. 1 do I get to choose one of those? (or from the list of Feats?)

[ArcturusV]

Anything listed as "Class Features" you get automatically. This can even include feats like the Wizard and Cleric automatically getting Ritual Caster (And a Ritual Book as a free item). Several class features have an "Either" clause, like Ranger Combat Style. You get either two-weapon fighting or archery and it's benefits. On top of hunter's quarry and Prime Shot.

This is all independent of Feats, which you can choose at any time presuming you meet prerequisites. Class Specific Feats (Ones that say things like "Must be a Ranger"), you don't get automatically, but can be chosen at any time you meet it's prerequisites, even level 1.

Note that you can only take ONE multiclass feat (Unless you are a Bard), and once you take that feat you count as a member of that class for all intents and purposes, including Feat choice. But you don't get all the "Class Features", you only get what the feat tells you (Usually a lesser version of a single class feature, and one skill trained).

[Acshunjaq]

@ArcturusV - Thank you for clarifying that!

Also, not to ask another silly question but where can i find class information on the Bard? (I'm familiar with the genre from MMOs) but there's nothing in the Handbook I have about it. Is it a, "homebrew" class? Or was there some kind of expansion to 4e that I'm missing?

[NecroRebel]

Note that you can only take ONE multiclass feat (Unless you are a Bard), and once you take that feat you count as a member of that class for all intents and purposes, including Feat choice.

Actually, if you take a multiclass feat you're only treated as a member of the second class for a strictly limited set of purposes, though meeting feat prerequisites is among those purposes. If you were treated as a member of your second class for all purposes, there would be feats that you can never take, ever, under any circumstance, so that position is clearly wrong :smallsmile:


Also, not to ask another silly question but where can i find class information on the Bard? (I'm familiar with the genre from MMOs) but there's nothing in the Handbook I have about it. Is it a, "homebrew" class? Or was there some kind of expansion to 4e that I'm missing?

The Bard is in Player's Handbook 2.

[BlckDv]

Reading the books you have at hand, I just want to double check something here;

You are not trying to create an encounter using monsters out of the original 1st Ed Monster Manual to use against PCs made from the 4th Ed Player's Handbook are you?

The stats have changed a lot over the editions, and 1st Ed monsters will be missing key stats and have others that are now meaningless (like saves).

4th Edition has a lot of books with extra options, including 3 Monster Manuals, several other Monster products, a DMG 1 and a DMG 2, a PH 1 PH 2 and PH3, as well as an alternate set of books called "Essentials" which can replace the PH and DMG.

I would strongly suggest making Monster Manual 3 or the Monster Vault product your next purchase to add to the PH and DMG you have. They have the best built monsters in the game and avoid some early "bad math" in the MM 1 and MM 2.

The other books do more or less as you would expect, each new PH adds more races and classes, the DMG2 adds more traps encounter advice, and updates a lot of DM side rules.

[Geoff]

I'm familiar with the basic swing mechanic of 1d20 + atk mod vs. AC for hit, but when it says Charisma vs. Will for example does that mean,The monster will have a Will defense listed, along with FORT and REF, right after its AC. That's the DC for the attack roll.

The player rolls 1d20 + CHA /modifier/ ( (CHA - 10)/2 round down ) + enhancement bonuses (from an implement) + any other bonuses (like feats or racial bonuses, combat advantage, or whatever). Matching the the DC hits.


But I know they're worried about getting invested into a character that will play "sub-par". Is there anything I can say, or adjust on the DM to make sure this isn't the case?Having poor stats, but one good stat in the class's primary, isn't too terrible. A poor primary stat (anything under 16, really) will leave the character consistently behind when it comes to actually hitting. 4e does not have items that can make up a bad stat, nothing like the old Gauntlets of Ogre Power or Boots of Speed that just up an give you a higher stat, and the improved stats for leveling up are assumed to go to your primaries to keep up, not to shore up weaknesses.

So, yes, the players who random-rolled and rolled poorly will be 'paying the price' for their PCs whole careers. If they'd rolled fantastically well (as someone just did in my 5e playtest), they'd have an enduring advantage, instead. :shrug:


3) We've been through 1 encounter so far, but it seemed as though everyone was just using their At-Will ability every round, and once using their encounter ability. Is this how battles progress?At first level, sure. You're all getting used to what characters can do, how the system works, how to read the few powers you have, etc. You get more powers as you level. A encounter powers at 3rd & 7th, dailies at 5th, & 9th. And, also utilities at 2nd, 6th & 10th. /And/, as you give out items, some of them will have daily or other powers, as well. When players have 2 at-wills, an encounter & a daily, for only about 4 interesting choices, the 2 at-wills get used a lot. When they have 3 each of encounters, dailies, and utilities, and the odd item power, for 10+ choices ever round, it's very different, and at-wills don't see as much use.

In addition, of course, you can always take a gander at DMG p42 and encourage your players to avail themselves of improvised actions. But, I'd give them a chance to learn the system, first. If they grasp it quickly and options aren't expanding rapidly enough to hold their interest, give it a try.