[PF] Melee wizard transmuter! HELP!

[Fugazi]

Hi all, I'm looking for feedback on my build and tips & suggestions for gear, polymorph/shape options, strategies and general gameplay.

I'm currently creating a half-elf wizard 10 (transmutation - enhancement school) who will use a great-sword as his bonded item. The idea is become large, use buffs and smash things OR use one of the many shape spells to assume better forms than enlarge person/alter self offers. Alternatively I could go for an Amulet of Mighty Fists since I got the level to spam Shape spells and the cost of the Amulet has been lowered. Add half the cost through bonded item to that and tada, a +4 amulet becomes completely viable at lvl10.

I start at lvl10 with 25 point buy (no going into negatives for extra points) and two traits. I figured I could go for +1 fortitude and will saves from traits, but perhaps magical lineage could be a great pick.

STR 18 10D6HP, BAB 5, F3/R3/W7
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 10


Feats
1 Arcane Strike
3 Still Spell
5 Power Attack
7 Eschew Materials (or toughness)
9 Defiant Luck (1x reroll save or confirmed crit)
W Scribe Scroll
W Extend Spell
W Quicken Spell
Future: Lunge, Spell Perfection, Improved Initiative, (Greater) Spell Focus Transmutation, Great Fortitude and Iron Will.

Eschew Materials seems fantastic to circumvent the 'need a bit of the creature' part, but if that ain't needed, will be swapped out for toughness. Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Physical Enhancement (+3str, dex or con all day long) and or the +4 buff spells should get me far. Mage Armor, Alter Self, Greater Magic Weapon, Darkvision and Heroism are all long-lasting buffs. A bless/prayer/haste from other group-members plus an eventual flanking bonus will add to the pile of common attack modifiers.

Oddly enough I shouldn't lag behind the full BAB classes that much (assuming I can use an appropriate x shape spell or enlarge), but I'll be squisher (less hp) and have fewer combat feats in exchange for versatility through spell-casting.

For gear I was thinking of an armored kilt (mage armor will give more AC, but the enhancement bonus is where it is at). A great-sword / bladed belt so if I use it as a bonded item, I'm ALWAYS wearing it or have it. The standard headband of intellect, cloak of resistance, ring of deflection and pearls of power, spellbook, potions, scrolls, etc.

I'm a bit lost at the moment, not sure if I spread myself too thin or focusd myself too much on a tactic that will gimp me. Feedback is greatly appreciated! :)

edit - added the (potentional) stat block.

[Slipperychicken]

Melee Wizard? Why not Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus)? "Melee Wizard" is basically the class concept...

Traits: Reactive is a good choice, because Initiative is a lovely thing to have.

[Daftendirekt]

Melee Wizard? Why not Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus)?

Spells above 6th level, and a much larger list at all spell levels. Same reason one might go Wiz/EK instead of Magus. Magus has its place (and it is a place I love and adore) but in terms of pure magical power Wizard is better.

[Fugazi]

Melee Wizard? Why not Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus)?

Mostly because I want to see if it can work. Describing your character the first time as a strong man who happens to be a wizard should put a (confused) smile on the faces of your fellow players. A wizard with str20?! Who makes that up!

Also, the transmuter has some really nice benefits and you can always fall back on staple spells to aid the group.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Doesn't help with melee at all, but if you are a transmuter, you should try to craft yourself some annihilation spectacles (I think that's the name) as soon as possible. Lets you spontaneously cast any trans spell you know of same/lower level in place of any trans spell you have prepared! I think it costs 25,000 gp, but you can Craft Wondrous it for half that.

[Fugazi]

Doesn't help with melee at all, but if you are a transmuter, you should try to craft yourself some annihilation spectacles (I think that's the name) as soon as possible. Lets you spontaneously cast any trans spell you know of same/lower level in place of any trans spell you have prepared! I think it costs 25,000 gp, but you can Craft Wondrous it for half that.

That's a damn sexy item. Money shouldn't be a problem in this campaign so I should be able to get them soon :)

[Squirrel_Dude]

If you're going to be building a melee wizard, you'll probably want things like defensive combat training and toughness. It's going to be hard to fight in melee if everything can trip you or kill you with a full attack.

- Since you can't wear armor it would probably be better to have a high dexterity and weapon finesse than a high strength. Use an agile weapon to deal you dex damage to enemies.

- I wouldn't recommend power attack because you won't have to to-hit modifier to spare.

- Save some of your point buy points by dumping your wisdom and charisma. You have a high will save and you can always charm people into being your friends or glibness them into believing your lies. Or get the bard to do it.
* If you don't want to drop your charisma, instead try and get it to 13 and take the eldritch heritage feat. I would recommend the boreal or stormborn for the ability to add the shock or frost enchantments to your weapon as a standard action.

- Still spell, in my experience, just isn't practical for a wizard. It's kind of like silent spell in that you don't really plan for the situations where it will be necessary (unless your an illusionist or enchanter maybe).

[Fugazi]

I'm starting at 10 so AC is 'less' of an issue. An armored kilt +3 plus mage armor gives me 7 armor. Add in 2 dex, a ring of deflection and natural armor modifiers plus the occassional shield spell and you're already getting there. The idea is to stand behind the main tank thanks to reach.

I'm not allowed to dump stats.

Still Spell is nice when you can apply it to simple buff/evac spells for when you're shaped/grappled. Also I need 3 meta-magic feats to apply for Spell Perfection.

The Enhancement subschool gives me a +3 enh bonus on str, con or dex all day long. I can apply another stat or NA buff for 5 rounds as a std action x times a day. With long-lasting spells like alter self, mage armor, heroism and what not, I should be good enough to walk 5-10f behind the meatshield.

[doko239]

Some thoughts:

- Taking Magical Knack as one of your traits would allow you to go EK without losing those spellcaster levels.

- Even if you go Melee Wizard, DO NOT make your bonded item a weapon. If your opponent disarms or sunders you, you are now nigh-useless for a week minimum. Go for a ring or some such; much harder to take away from you.

- I don't think Armored Kilt would stack with Mage Armor. As an alternative, you could use a Haramaki or Silken Armor from Ultimate Combat; both are 1 AC armors with no ACP and no spell failure.

[Baroncognito]

I'm starting at 10 so AC is 'less' of an issue. An armored kilt +3 plus mage armor gives me 7 armor.

I don't believe it does. Mage armour is an armour bonus, an armoured kilt is an armour bonus, so the two shouldn't stack.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I'm starting at 10 so AC is 'less' of an issue. An armored kilt +3 plus mage armor gives me 7 armor. Add in 2 dex, a ring of deflection and natural armor modifiers plus the occassional shield spell and you're already getting there. The idea is to stand behind the main tank thanks to reach.

I'm not allowed to dump stats.Alright.


Still Spell is nice when you can apply it to simple buff/evac spells for when you're shaped/grappled. Also I need 3 meta-magic feats to apply for Spell Perfection. Fair point.


The Enhancement subschool gives me a +3 enh bonus on str, con or dex all day long. I can apply another stat or NA buff for 5 rounds as a std action x times a day. With long-lasting spells like alter self, mage armor, heroism and what not, I should be good enough to walk 5-10f behind the meatshield.Yeah, that is a fine AC if you're not in melee.

10 + 7 armor (1 round of spells) + 2 Dex + 3 deflect + 6 (3 + 3) natural (standard action) + 4 shield (1 round of spells).

That's assuming a +3 ring of protection and +3 amulet of natural armor and 2-3 rounds to cast spells or use abilities, or you using quick on at least 1 armor spell to improve your own defense, and mage armor and the kilt stacking.That leaves you with 32 AC when you have time to prepare

A fighter trying to hit will have:
+10/+5 BAB + 1 weapon focus + 2 weapon training + 6 Str + 1 weapon. For a total of +20/+15. Without any buffs (simply using his favorite masterwork weapon), a fighter has 45%/20% chance to hit you, for a total of 66% chance to hit you at least once each round. Most monster won't have an initial attack that high, but they will often have more attacks each round, so it ends up being similar.

Some CR 10 creatures:
- Bebilith
Attacks: +19 bite and +19/+19 claws. (78% chance)
- Young Red Dragon
Attacks +17 bite +17/+17 claws +12/+12 wings +12 tail (80% chance)
- Clay Golem
+19/+19 slam (64% chance)

So, looking that that, you can safely say that your armor won't pro a huge problem. It isn't too bad, but you should keep in mind what your health is going to be. It wont' take as many hits for them to kill you compared to what you will need to do to them.

The bigger problems is that your CMD will be pretty small 10 +5 BAB +4 Str +2 Dex. 21 or 23 (if you use your boost).

A fighter's CMB at that level will be 10 BAB + 6 strength + 2 bonus for being his favorite manuever. +18 That is, after your buffs, and without any for himself, he will have a 85% chance to succeed on a combat maneuver. The problem gets worse against monsters, who will normally have a a ton or two on you.

Some CR 10 creatures:
- Bebilith: +23 CMB
- Young Red Dragon: +19 CMB
- Clay Golem: +21 CMB

So yeah, your defense might be a problem. All of those creatures are going to immediately be trying to enter the fray, have a size advantage, and often reach.

[Unusual Muse]

All of this is well and good, but you're still stuck with your wizard HP, which means you're gonna go down quick vs. creatures of that CR. One solid hit and you're done. Melee wizard doesn't work very well in my experience.

EDIT: It can be effective to, for example, polymorph into a treant in order to trample a bunch of schlubs, but under no circumstances should you be toe-to-toe trading blows with tough melee opponents.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Your attack bonus is *really* going to be hurting. I'd instead build as Wizard 5/Barbarian 1/Eldritch Knight 4. Rage helps you stay alive and hit harder, and going with the Eldritch Knight would increase your BAB enough to give you an extra attack on a full attack. It would also raise your HD from 10d6 (average 35 before CON) to 5d6+1d12+4d10, which averages 46 before CON.

The Magical Knack trait gives you CL 10 anyway, but it's important to note that you still cast as an 8th-level wizard for spells per day. It just increases your CL by 2. I would take Magical Knack as one trait, and probably Reactionary (+2 initiative) for the other.

[Fugazi]

I know that a fighter level + eldritch knight fixes HP, BAB and opens up more feats (also through bab). I'm just looking into a pure wizard who can hang behind the frontliners while dealing damage.

Many of the shapes get you a NA bonus, you can cast spells like Blur and Displacements and what not.

I did check out the to hit though. You can easily have a +4 amulet at this level (16k, got 64k wealth). STR is at +6/7 or +8/9/10. BAB 5. Arcane Strike 3. That's a +18 at the minimum. As an EK you'd lose the transmuter bonusses, but make up for it with pure BAB and feats. But a +18 without heroism (10mins/lvl, can self-cast it), bless, prayer and haste is pretty decent for someone with BAB 5. Having 4-5 attacks with a 6-10str/3arc strke/4amulet basis is pretty good. The only glaring downside is the hitpoints, but swapping out power attack for toughness and investing in a +4 con item ASAP will help a lot. A wand of False Life or simply memorizing the spell twice will also help.

The only problem is that PF nerfed the duration of many spells. Alter Self, Heroism, Mage Armor and others do last 10mins/1hour per level. The shapes/polymorph only last 1 minute a level though.

This is all mostly an experiment and the biggest downsides seem to CMD and HP. AC can be fixed, but next to Mage Armor, it will cost actions that you will not always have.

[Unusual Muse]

I'm just looking into a pure wizard who can hang behind the frontliners while dealing damage.

The "Medium" and "Long" range categories *do* qualify as "behind the frontliners while dealing damage." :smallsmile:

[Slipperychicken]

Thread Title
Melee wizard



I'm just looking into a pure wizard who can hang behind the frontliners while dealing damage.


You're going to have to explain this one to me. You want to do both?

[Corlindale]

You can easily have a +4 amulet at this level (16k, got 64k wealth). STR is at +6/7 or +8/9/10. BAB 5. Arcane Strike 3.

Remember that Arcane Strike does absolutely nothing for your attack bonus.

As sc said, it would be useful to know exactly how "all-in" you wish to be on melee.

I would personally recommend using shapeshifting extensively, since it helps compensate for your low BAB in three ways: You get a huge strength boost, you get more attacks despite your lack of iteratives and you get a higher attack bonus consistently than someone relying on iteratives. Also, it helps compensate for lack of armor (but Mage Armor still works fine when shifted) Thus, don't bother focusing on actual weapons, but rely on fighting in polymorph at all times.

HP is your biggest issue now, so you need to buff constitution significantly (Toughness will also help), but you can't neglect Strength either. Int might contrarily be kept at the minimum needed to cast your spells (though if you still want to have some chance of using the more offensive transmutations you obviously can't neglect it entirely). One good thing about not multiclassing your transmuter is that your school power boosts keep increasing, though - you can use one of them for Con and then wear a strength belt (or the other way around). Use your enhancement power to buff Dex for extra AC during tough fights.
Another way to help the HP issue would be to convince your friendly neighbourhood divine caster to use Shield Other on you. If you're going to be in front while he's hanging out in the back, it's the least he can do :smallsmile:

Lastly, have you considered a familiar instead of a bonded object? I'm normally a fan of the object too, but for this particular build I think using a familiar has possibilities. Get an improved familiar with decent base stats and take full advantage of the fact that you can cast most of your polymorph spells on it. Suddenly you can have two huge dire tigers on your team instead of one! (or two dragons, eventually...)

Of course, the familiar is still a bit squishy, but if you really pump Con you could get it to decent levels. Shield Other might also be an option here.

[Fugazi]

The idea is to be big enough to attack from behind the tanks, because the wizard needs multiple buffs to be able to tank. An original ideas was to use a glaive as the bonded item and through enlarge and large/huge shapes/morphs be able to attack from far away.

But since they made the amulet cheaper and a wizard can enchant it at half cost, getting a +4 amulet is most tempting.

As for Arcane Strike, my bad :smallannoyed:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1avbOKg848X3Z3dVpmdrpxtR__zan2jj_NzP0uZU9LTw/edit

This file lists great forms for all shape spells. The Four-Armed Gargoyle is already available to me (assuming the DM isn't a d*ck) and is large, has 6 attacks and has a fly speed. Add in the Lunge feat at 12 (or earlier if playing an EK) and tada.