Playing as a Swarm? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-24, 03:17 PM

Is there a way to make a Swarm into a PC, with class levels, casting, all of that?

To specify, I'm not just looking for a way to occasionally shapeshift into a swarm, but a way to actually be a swarm as your base state. Being something else for a few levels, and then permanently transforming yourself into a swarm is acceptable.

Bonus points for doing with a low ECL and/or Character Level.

thethird

2013-02-24, 03:25 PM

Were murder of crows?

Murder of crows can be found in tome of magic. As animal it is a valid target for werecreature template.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-24, 03:28 PM

Were murder of crows?

Murder of crows can be found in tome of magic. As animal it is a valid target for werecreature template.

Where exactly is the werecreature template?

8wGremlin

2013-02-24, 03:30 PM

Necropolitan with swarm shifter template?

The Dark Fiddler

2013-02-24, 03:34 PM

Where exactly is the werecreature template?

...lycanthrope in the Monster Manual. Also in the SRD.

Crinias

2013-02-24, 03:41 PM

Silthilar from Lords of Madness? The LA is very high but it's very flavorful.

Qc Storm

2013-02-24, 03:45 PM

Maybe your carcass can host a Hivenest. It's a template from dungeonscape.

Malroth

2013-02-24, 03:47 PM

1) be an evil warlock with 15 Int take the summon swarm invocation and the dark speech feat
2) summon a swarm and use the dark speech to awaken it as a hivemind
3) let the evil hivemind dominate your character and talk the DM into playing the evil swarm controling him.

ericgrau

2013-02-24, 03:57 PM

Were murder of crows?

Murder of crows can be found in tome of magic. As animal it is a valid target for werecreature template.

So... an individual bitten by a swarm of werecrows becomes a swarm of werecrows. <head asplode>

thethird

2013-02-24, 04:18 PM

And you can have a mob o anthropormic crows weremurderofcrows.

Zanthy1

2013-02-24, 05:02 PM

So... an individual bitten by a swarm of werecrows becomes a swarm of werecrows. <head asplode>

Well no, the curse of lycanthropy doesn't transfer like that so easily. I think you have to be born with the curse or something along those lies in order to change others. If you just acquire the template I dont think you can spread it

However, I could be wrong, I do not have the book on hand

Sgt. Cookie

2013-02-24, 05:12 PM

Symbiote Template? Be any swarm you want, all for LA1! Also, the source of ECL2 Leadership.

Deaxsa

2013-02-24, 05:14 PM

I'd suggest reading into Savage Species and Ur-Priest's monster handbook. it's a great resource. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928).

ericgrau

2013-02-24, 05:24 PM

Well no, the curse of lycanthropy doesn't transfer like that so easily. I think you have to be born with the curse or something along those lies in order to change others. If you just acquire the template I dont think you can spread it

However, I could be wrong, I do not have the book on hand

Well the main point is that essentially the werecrowswarm template is, legally by RAW, being applied to an individual humanoid. The result is someone that changes into a swarm of crows. Come to think of it, when he changes back into a humanoid he is an individual again. Kind of a cool, now that I picture it.

I imagine the hybrid form would be a mass of crows forming a humanoid shape.

Dammit now I need to play one.

Psyren

2013-02-24, 05:31 PM

If you have access to Incarnum, Dragon 350 has the Brood Keeper's Heart soulmeld, which makes you a swarm when bound to your Heart chakra. The fastest way to access Heart is via the Ironsoul Forgemaster PrC, which gets it at ECL 15; pure Incarnates are second, getting it 1 level later.

RolandDeschain

2013-02-24, 05:37 PM

Well the main point is that essentially the werecrowswarm template is, legally by RAW, being applied to an individual humanoid. The result is someone that changes into a swarm of crows. Come to think of it, when he changes back into a humanoid he is an individual again. Kind of a cool, now that I picture it.

I imagine the hybrid form would be a mass of crows forming a humanoid shape.

Dammit now I need to play one.

The visual is stunning. How it plays, however, not so much.

ericgrau

2013-02-24, 06:16 PM

The visual is stunning. How it plays, however, not so much.

Because of the 4 HD, 2-3 LA and low ability score bumps? You aren't even immune to weapon damage nor even do you have the crow resistances, instead you have DR 10/silver. I can see problems, but it might be workable. You are at least a hard to hit 10x10 mobile AoE debuff/disable with 2 saves. The problem is scaling it from there.

Let's see, rolled dex & con plus ability focus for each special attack gives you DC 18 and DC 16 at ECL 7. The average CR 5 monster (4 CR 5 = EL 9) has save modifiers of 7 fortitude and 6 reflex, so you have a good chance of success on at least one of them. If you can somehow get buffs you can push it a little farther, but by ECL 15 you could be in trouble and even at ECL 10 it starts to decline.

Hmm, I know, be a psionic class so you can do something while in animal form. Expansion could be handy, for example.

The Dark Fiddler

2013-02-24, 06:21 PM

The visual is stunning. How it plays, however, not so much.

I think it can work very well as an antagonist. I put my group up against a half-dragon wererat swarm once, and it was quite a memorable encounter... a bit challenging, too.

RolandDeschain

2013-02-24, 07:01 PM

Don't get me wrong fellas, it would add a great deal of "flare"...:smallsmile:

Hylas

2013-02-24, 07:08 PM

Symbiote Template? Be any swarm you want, all for LA1! Also, the source of ECL2 Leadership.

Yep, was going to suggest this. Definitely the easiest way to become a swarm. I recommend a swarm of awakened butterflies, but feel free to be whatever you want.

Sgt. Cookie

2013-02-24, 07:26 PM

All the Cool Kids use Dread Blossom Swarms. 7hd worth of skills and Feats, Plant Immunities, Swarm Immunities, Regeneration 5 Fire/Cold and an Aura of paralasis.

A Dread Barbarian is a good way to make the most of it, Blazing+Frozen Beserker + Extra Rage X 2, when you Rage you get both Fire and Cold subtypes, negating your 1 weakness. Add in immunity to Non-Lethal and you have a much cheaper Emerald Legion.

Add in a Maximised Empowered Awaken for even more fun!

Toy Killer

2013-02-24, 07:52 PM

The day that I learned turning a barbarian into a cloud of flowers (no matter how vicious the flowers are) is a viable and possibly game breaking option is the day that I truly realized that WotC is truly incompetent at the game they designed.

Psyren

2013-02-24, 07:58 PM

...negating your 1 weakness

You may have another (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gustOfWind.htm) weakness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm) to worry about. And once you run out of rage you can be roasted normally.

8wGremlin

2013-02-24, 08:03 PM

Just to Browse

2013-02-24, 08:24 PM

I imagine the hybrid form would be a mass of crows forming a humanoid shape.
Perhaps something like this?

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff210/Dfriendz/swain.png

Sgt. Cookie

2013-02-24, 08:29 PM

Psyren: Wind Wall and Gust of Wind arn't effective.

By the time the Dread Barbarian has run out of rage, everything that was attacking is either dead or paralysed.

8wGremlin

2013-02-24, 09:26 PM

So digging around in the lost catacombs I found this for symbiont

A good one is a (Half Fey Greenbound) Deathraven Swarm from the BoED. Con Based Save-or-Die (And need Wish to come back) that has no [Death] descriptor and forces a Fort Save EVERY time you wound someone. Oh, and a 20% chance you'll rip out the eyes of and blind anyone you damage each round. And you still use the host's HD, with the LA +1. Mmmmmm, gouda..........

TroubleBrewing

2013-02-24, 09:44 PM

Perhaps something like this?

DEEEEEEP CROOOOOOOW (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/03/21)

Urpriest

2013-02-24, 09:49 PM

I'd suggest reading into Savage Species and Ur-Priest's monster handbook. it's a great resource. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928).

While flattery will get you everywhere, unfortunately my handbook doesn't say a lot about swarms.

Broadly, the options are Lycanthrope of a swarm (the wording is a little weird, but I think last time I looked at it it was RAW doable), one of the other (and much more broken) ways to hack two creatures together like Symbiotic or Tauric, or Silithar, at high LA. If you're willing to sink a lot of class levels into it, Brood Keeper's Heart can do it, and there's a Warlock Invocation that makes you a swarm at the cost of making you comparatively useless.

123456789blaaa

2013-02-24, 09:51 PM

Because of the 4 HD, 2-3 LA and low ability score bumps? You aren't even immune to weapon damage nor even do you have the crow resistances, instead you have DR 10/silver. I can see problems, but it might be workable. You are at least a hard to hit 10x10 mobile AoE debuff/disable with 2 saves. The problem is scaling it from there.

Let's see, rolled dex & con plus ability focus for each special attack gives you DC 18 and DC 16 at ECL 7. The average CR 5 monster (4 CR 5 = EL 9) has save modifiers of 7 fortitude and 6 reflex, so you have a good chance of success on at least one of them. If you can somehow get buffs you can push it a little farther, but by ECL 15 you could be in trouble and even at ECL 10 it starts to decline.

Hmm, I know, be a psionic class so you can do something while in animal form. Expansion could be handy, for example.

Why? Don't you gain the [swarm] subtype when you change form?

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-24, 09:57 PM

So, it sounds like being a were-creature is the place to start. Now, what can be done (or needs to be done) to get casting?

Psyren

2013-02-24, 09:59 PM

Why? Don't you gain the [swarm] subtype when you change form?

I don't know this specific swarm, but only Dimunitive and Fine Swarms have weapon damage immunity; Tiny swarms are large enough for weapons to affect them. That could be why.

123456789blaaa

2013-02-24, 10:00 PM

I don't know this specific swarm, but only Dimunitive and Fine Swarms have weapon damage immunity; Tiny swarms are large enough for weapons to affect them. That could be why.

Whoops, forgot about that :smallredface:.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-24, 10:03 PM

I don't know this specific swarm, but only Dimunitive and Fine Swarms have weapon damage immunity; Tiny swarms are large enough for weapons to affect them. That could be why.

Swarms of Crows are tiny, but the same source has rules for swarms of other, smaller birds, which could be smaller.

Urpriest

2013-02-24, 10:06 PM

So, it sounds like being a were-creature is the place to start. Now, what can be done (or needs to be done) to get casting?

I'd advise Psionics. Lycanthropes get a bonus to Wis IIRC, which along with the RHD synergizes well with Ardent.

Just to Browse

2013-02-25, 02:51 PM

Hmmm... I don't see a way that symbiotic would actually help. It just gives you some secondary attacks and different ability scores, doesn't it?

UnjustCustos

2013-02-25, 03:20 PM

And releasing a swarm (if swarm can be applied) only to have to wait a day for it to reattach. So you would be walking around looking like a guy with jump suit made out of a few dozen birds.