Tarquins adventuring group

[Onyavar]

The giant is known to drop all his hints to future plot turns very early, and Tarquins party members are the six most powerful plot-related characters of the Western Continent (before Team Evil arrives).
Since I haven't seen one for months, I wanted to start a thread to discuss the possible personalities of T's party.

We don't know much about Tarquins cronies in EoT and EoS.
757 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html), 758 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) and 759 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html) are to my knowledge the only comics where they showed up.
[ 1st Edit: 817 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html) ]
[ 2nd Edit when 911 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html) came out ]

Now I want to analyze all six as a party.
Power: I guess that the other members of Tarquins group will also show up sooner or later in the story, each of them coming with his/her own rich set of motivations and character background.
Alignment: In all previous parties in the spotlight (Order, Guild, Scribble) we have people of different alignments. So I think we can say that T's party is not comprised of six LE guys, although the party in total is tending to LE goals. We can't even rule out that Tarquins group has some non-evil alignments, maybe one or two neutral ones.
Classes: T does know about the classical party constellation (817), so his party must have at least fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard.
Pairings: In T's schemes it makes sense to pair people with different strengths and weaknesses. In EoB, he paired a melee fighter and a non-melee caster. It makes sense that his other four partners are also distributed likewise. Then, in every pairing one of the partners must have a higher position than the other (not in the official fake structure, but in Tarquins inofficial line of command).
Since T knows his memes, he must like theme-based pairings. It's not too outlandish that he likes his pairings like "Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic Empire"; or a female-only kingdom (EoS). He took Malack (vampire) as his companion in the Eo-Blood... Yes, everything is heavily planned out by him, so his Empires are theme-based.
Prime stats: We can't assume that each of the six group members has one outstanding prime stat of the six posible ones, but I want to point out the most likely prime stat (or dump stat) in my opinion.

EoB:
- Tarquin is the evil warlord who plans to conquer all of Western Continent with a complicated intrigue of puppet states. He showed us a ton of melee feats, so I guess that he has a borderline-epic level, possibly 18 to 20. He's extremely genry-savy and his prime stat is charisma.
- Malack is the (probably) evil vampire lord and cleric who has a philosophical streak and is reluctant in creating spawns. He didn't show high spell levels, so maybe his level is way below Tarquins. Still, Malack has the vampire template that makes him a powerful creature in it's own rights, his medium (?) cleric levels "just" provide him with a nice bonus to be a mighty necro-master. His prime stat is wisdom.

EoT:
- Miron Shewdanker with his scarf seems rather sinister, and he is almost certainly a spellcaster (he paired with melee-fighting T more than once in 757+759). If he's not a spellcaster, he put some ranks in UMD for the wand in 757. He participated in Tyrinaria and EoT, he assisted T in torturing one of his wives - this indicates him being needlessly cruel and coldhearted.
I think he could be a very skilled Warlock? The scarves are likely to hide something horrible, for example an affliction. Is it something he did to himself to show his dedication towards a high-level demon/devil/daemon? Or is it hiding his monster type? Or it might be just his red-herring fashion statement (see Elans eyepatch in 511). Still, I would guess Miron is deeply rooted in the evil territory, and has some schemes and background of his own. I also assume that Miron is in some respect the second-in-command in Tarquins party.
- Mirons EoT companion (shoulder pad guy: "SPG") is shown to be a melee character (another indicator towards Mirons spellcasting ability). Tarquin is also a melee build, so SPG must have a different background. Being a melee build, I assume that strength and/or constitution are his prime stat. He strikes me to rely on the physical stats, not the psychical ones. Since his armor isn't too heavy, he might be a barbarian? On the other hand, he is certainly above Thog-level-dumb. Another thing: he's human, as can be seen from his hair turning grey. His level is hard to guess, but if he's somewhat on par with M and T, it must be a big thing. He might be a dual-class build - with Malack being a non-melee caster, SPG could be a fighter/cleric for the front line. His alignment is hard to guess, but if I have to pick one, my bet is on NE.

EoS:
- "Catgirl" screams rogue or some other dexterity-based class. No-one of the others in T's party seems to fit the rogue part, so I assume she is the one. She dresses seductively in the first pages of her appearance, so T might have used her in that respect in his political schemes. She might be CE, so she needs some control by the others. To finish the cliché: Dexterity is her prime stat.
But there is more to Catgirl, I think. Were-lioness or were-tigress makes a lot of sense: It would give her a strong evil outline to fit with T's party and give her a higher challenge rating, to fit with M and T levelwise. Being a werecat might be the reason for some inner-party conflict between her (impulsive, lively, dextrous, mischievous, were-being) and Malack (thoughtful, super-honest, "frail", vampire), so the pair is unlikely to be combined by T. I don't know how deep the were/vampire conflict is in D&D; and having weres and vampires as part of the same team is making a refreshing story in my opinion.
- Laurin Shattersmith is a psion, high level enough that she can cast a Gate-spell. (Edit, when 911 came out) "Ion stone lady" ("ISL") is an arcane spellcaster, that's pretty sure. Pairing her with Catgirl is a good decision of T - if Catgirl is hotheaded, ISL will play the role of the vizier/counselor to Queen Shvitzer, while Catgirl plays the bodyguard/special-ops role. I guess ISL has the most intelligence (prime stat) in Tarquins group, making her similar to V in the OotS. Given that, I estimate ISL to be unemotional, detached and straight-to-business. She might be in it for gathering magic/power/knowledge in every way possible. Having three ion stones shows that she has come far in that direction. She's aging with the same pace as SPG and Tarquin and thus most certainly human.
Something specific for future storylines, based on the previous assumptions: If ISL and V ever meet, there will be a comparison of their alignment - NE or TN is my guess for ISL, by the way. ISL will be unrepenting on the numerous crimes she committed in T's party, even if those crimes pale in comparison with V's familicide atrocity. V on the other hand already shows hir remorse for the familicide. I make this prediction because I know how the giant likes to make his point that people of the same class/race/alignment can turn out to be diametrically opposed personalities.

I know that these characterizations and assumptions I'm making here are jumps to conclusions, based on very little evidence. But what do you think? In which ways will the other members of Tarquins group be awesome and powerful characters?

[Edited for 911, inserted the blue parts]

[Raineh Daze]

I expect they're all pretty powerful (and, honestly, I'd discount the vampire LA for trying to guess Malack's actual class levels because we don't know what level he got vamped at), given that they're the most experienced party seen so far. :smallbiggrin:


Malack (thoughtful, super-honest, frail, vampire)

'Frail' and 'vampire' do not belong in the same sentence. No CON score to speak of, immunities to tons of stuff, Damage Reduction, Fast Healing, and d12 HD. What part of that would indicate frailty? :smallconfused:

[Onyavar]

'Frail' and 'vampire' do not belong in the same sentence. No CON score to speak of, immunities to tons of stuff, Damage Reduction, Fast Healing, and d12 HD. What part of that would indicate frailty? :smallconfused:

Malack said so himself, and there are all those disadvantages (e.g. sunlight allergy) that are not beneficial to a vampire. If I'm correctly informed, the vampire template drops the CON by 2, and if the lizard already started out with a low CON, this makes him very vulnerable. All the stuff you mention can counter a low CON, but many of the vampire bonuses are circumstantial - if caught near water, surrounded by holy symbols, holy water and in the sunlight, he's pretty much toast, and he knows that.
There is a tactical reason why Nale put him to the rear when he followed the order into the pyramid.

But it's not Malack and Tarquin that I intend to focus on in this thread - they only set the expectations/limits/parameters towards the rest of their party. And since we saw those first+last around 758, my expectations have grown.

[Clericzilla]

I'm hoping some 2e Dark Sun references and potentially psionic classes. I mean come on, the western continent kinda screams "Athas".

Which makes me wonder if there will be the psionic to magic transparency and how that will someone screw over the OoTS.

I wouldn't be surprised to see one of the other party members being some sort of NG Exalted type. Now that would be awesome.

[Raineh Daze]

He was also talking about a special diet, then, so take that with a grain of salt.

Also, becoming a vampire sets your CON score to -. Not 0, you don't have one whatsoever. You also gain immunity to anything requiring a fortitude save that does not also affect objects.

But it's best to get the basic facts about the baseline correct first, right? :smallconfused:

[Mike Havran]

I think that the Shoulder Pad Guy might be a Fighter/Blackguard. It would fit to have some bit of additional healing in case Malack's class levels aren't up with others. (Tarquin might be Blackguard as well, but that doesn't seem very likely).

If Miron is sorcerer (he looks that way), the Ioun Stone Lady might be a druid. But that seems unlikely, since Malack's speech to Durkon implies he was the main healer of the party.

BTW, the thread is a nice idea :smallsmile:

[Gift Jeraff]

I was thinking Ioun Stone Lady could be a psion or something.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Just based on how they look I'm saying blackguard, cleric, rogue, monk, sorcerer, fighter.

[Rakoa]

I like the idea of this thread. Tarquin is probably my favourite character, and part of that reason is the ways in which he and Malack interact. Hopefully his adventuring group will be significant later on in the story. Seeing more of that interaction would be interesting, for sure. Maybe they will get a prequel book?

Regardless, analysis of the adventurers really is speculation at this point. With what you've been given, however, you've done an excellent job narrowing down the likelihood of the given classes that these people could be.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Also you forgot 817 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html).

[The Pilgrim]

(...)
We don't know much about Tarquins cronies in EoT and EoS.
757 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html), 758 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) and 759 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html) are to my knowledge the only comics where they showed up.(...)

Add 817 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html) to the list.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[Bling Cat]

While it doesn't constitute concrete proof, the 817 panel has me basically convinced that not only is the Catwoman a rogue (Or other similar class) but she's also the most hot headed of the group. Note that this is based purely off of her facial expression, and as such is totally subjective, but that's the vibe I'm getting.

Also, the outfit gives me an evil rogue vibe.

[Bulldog Psion]

It is intriguing to speculate on the party makeup. Of course, we're not even sure if Tarquin himself is a straight fighter yet, or if he has a prestige class or is some oddball class like Factotum.

I agree that the catgirl sure looks like a rogue, and that Miron Shewdanker is likely a sorcerer.

Ioun stone lady (ISL) could be a psion, I suppose, given that there are whiffs of Athas about this desert area, too.

The frowning guy with the sword and board setup is a bit more problematic, though. He could be a blackguard, but then again, what if Tarquin's the blackguard and the frowning chap is the straight fighter? I don't know if we have enough hints about the melee types to hazard a guess yet.

[Heksefatter]

Miron is probably an arcane spellcaster of some sort. Wizard, sorceror or warlock could all fill the bill. The clearest sign is him standing with a smoking wand in the background as the woman has her feet frozen in a block in comic 757 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html). He's very likely highly evil, due to him participating in this.

Catgirl clearly looks like a rou - I mean, rogue. Leather outfit. We see her rob and enjoying it. Also, cats are associated with dexterity. Her expression lends credence to her being chaotic evil.

Shoulder Pad Guy is clearly a fighter of some sort. He does appear quite brutish, but he's likely not a complete idiot, seeing as he is part of the persuasion team with the Weeping King in comic 758 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html). Also, I think that no-one who was an outright idiot could work in a plot like Tarquin's.

I don't know why, but I like the idea of the Ioun Stone Lady (ISL) being a psion. Maybe it is for balance. She seems like a pretty cerebral person. Calm and collected in the scenes we see her in. Also, she's the one doing the persuasion with Queen Shvitzer in the Empire of Sweat (in 758), while Cat Girl is just sitting there. So, my guess is that she's good at coming off as calm and reasonable. That would likely be a good balance with Cat Girl too. Another good guess could be that she's a wizard. Academic and all that. If she's a psion, it would explain why she does the talking, though. Her mind powers would be extremely persuasive, even if only used in moderation (which is likely).

[Mr.Rictus]

I had a similar idea for a thread, however you did a better job than I would have^^
It's pretty certain that cat girl is a rogue and chaotic evil, if only because it would make sense to have the rogue being associated with the "liberation" empire. For such a role, you'd want at least one person capable with sneaking in the city and seemingly willing to throw off the yoke of an empire to contact the resistance. A roguish person would fit perfectly that role. Ion Stone Lady would probably be useful to maintain contact with the rebellion and overall diplomacy.

[Bulldog Psion]

If Miron is indeed a sorcerer or warlock, then it seems kind of unlikely that ISL is a wizard, since both classes together would be a bit redundant (or overkill, if you prefer :smallamused:). It would seem to boost the idea of psion even more.

[nephilia]

The caster guys.... maybe a cancer-mage from "book of vile darkness"?
Or a parasite lord from the same manual so maybe he's using the scarf to hide his insect-mandibles? ^^

[Onyavar]

If Miron is indeed a sorcerer or warlock, then it seems kind of unlikely that ISL is a wizard, since both classes together would be a bit redundant (or overkill, if you prefer :smallamused:). It would seem to boost the idea of psion even more.

What exactly is this "overkill" thing you speak of? :smallamused:

Yeah, it makes me unsure, too. Still, having three casters in a group of six is not unheard of.
- OotS has 2.25 casters (Elan counts as a quarter caster at best).
- The linear guild had 2.5 casters (Z+Hilgya+Nale and Leeky+Pompey+Nale).
- The OotScr had 3 casters. I'm not counting Girard as a full one here, but I'm adding him up with Soons paladin abilities.
My math is of course crude and unprecise, but I hope you get my point.

So, if either ISL is a wizard and Miron a warlock; or Miron a sorceror and ISL a psion; their party would still be "normal" balanced with a bit less than 3 full casters (yes, you can see here how much I value psions/warlocks).
And they're still even balanced if Miron and ISL are sorceror and wizard, just with different specializations.

Still, I guess that they don't have more than 3 full casters. If shoulder pad guy has a few frontline cleric levels, then I would also bet on ISL and Miron not being full casters themselves.
Miron might then be a (multiclassed?) Monk and ISL might be a mage with NPC class levels like aristocrat or diplomat...
After all, Tarquin is established as their head honcho, so they are all a little bit weaker than him - maybe not XP-wise but with less optimized builds.

[Mr.Rictus]

After all, Tarquin is established as their head honcho, so they are all a little bit weaker than him - maybe not XP-wise but with less optimized builds.

I disagree with that point actually. Roy is the leader of the Oots, however he is not really the most powerful (that status should go to V). He is a leader because he started the group, and because he is a very talented strategist. A similar point could be made for Nale and the Guild (except that his strategies mostly lead to senseless mayhem than actually accomplishing their goals).

Likewise, we have seen that Tarquin is undisputably a strategic genius (he is the one who came up with the "rule the continent" plan after all).
I can easily imagine that this would be a big factor in him being the leader. So the rest of the team could very well be as, or even slightly more powerful than Tarquin, without encroaching on his leader status.

There is one problem to my theory though: simply put, if the rest of them are all about as dangerous as Tarquin, like I believe they are, then they would easily crush the Order of the Stick in a fair fight, and possibly even Team Evil (if all six of them were there). Then again, that could bring the story to interesting new places...

[Starbuck_II]

I disagree with that point actually. Roy is the leader of the Oots, however he is not really the most powerful (that status should go to V). He is a leader because he started the group, and because he is a very talented strategist. A similar point could be made for Nale and the Guild (except that his strategies mostly lead to senseless mayhem than actually accomplishing their goals).

Elan started the group.
Roy just let him start the group.

[Fish]

Don't discount the possibility that Rich just wanted some companions that would look cool and be recognizable (viz, for the multi-nation shell game exposition). He needed someone we would recognize with minimum actual on-screen plot participation. There may be NO backstory.

[Caex]

Don't discount the possibility that Rich just wanted some companions that would look cool and be recognizable (viz, for the multi-nation shell game exposition). He needed someone we would recognize with minimum actual on-screen plot participation. There may be NO backstory.

Entirely possible, but since The Giant has developed so many things with so much detail and has apparently hinted at another prequel (if my very vague memory serves), I think we can give into the temptation of assuming they are complex, well developed characters with classes, feats, quirks, motivations, fears, hopes, and dreams. At least that's what I plan on doing. :smallwink:

[rgrekejin]

Huh. You know, now that I look really closely, it looks to me like there's a pair of lines edging out just above Miron's scarf in both the 759 and the panel in 758 where he's dressed in blue. They look sort of curved, like they should be the edge of a smiling mouth or something, except they're too high up and too far apart for that. I wonder if he might not have some sort of deformity. I also wonder if perhaps my imagination is not simply running away with me. Maybe they're circles under his eyes?

[Gift Jeraff]

Huh. You know, now that I look really closely, it looks to me like there's a pair of lines edging out just above Miron's scarf in both the 759 and the panel in 758 where he's dressed in blue. They look sort of curved, like they should be the edge of a smiling mouth or something, except they're too high up and too far apart for that. I wonder if he might not have some sort of deformity. I also wonder if perhaps my imagination is not simply running away with me. Maybe they're circles under his eyes?

Since they're not in the flashback from 15 years ago, I just figured they're from aging, like Geoff.

[ti'esar]

I think it's plausible that Tarquin and the shoulder pad guy are both single-classed fighters, just with very different styles. We've seen that Tarquin focuses on defense and using the opponent's abilities against them, so it seems possible (especially with the appearance) that the shoulder pad guy is more of the "kick in the door" archetype.

[Bulldog Psion]

Huh. You know, now that I look really closely, it looks to me like there's a pair of lines edging out just above Miron's scarf in both the 759 and the panel in 758 where he's dressed in blue. They look sort of curved, like they should be the edge of a smiling mouth or something, except they're too high up and too far apart for that. I wonder if he might not have some sort of deformity. I also wonder if perhaps my imagination is not simply running away with me. Maybe they're circles under his eyes?

They look precisely like the markings under Geoff's eyes, on the same page, no less.

Mr. Shewdanker is just getting a bit older and greyer. :smallwink:

[Koo Rehtorb]

I think it's plausible that Tarquin and the shoulder pad guy are both single-classed fighters, just with very different styles. We've seen that Tarquin focuses on defense and using the opponent's abilities against them, so it seems possible (especially with the appearance) that the shoulder pad guy is more of the "kick in the door" archetype.

He's got what looks like a tower shield.

[Mantine]

He's got what looks like a tower shield.

And Tarquin uses 2h weapons. Their choice of armaments doesn't necessarily reflects their fighting style.

[Sir_Leorik]

I don't think "Shoulder Pad Guy" is a Fighter; I think he might be a Hexblade, a Psychic Warrior or even a Spellsword. I'm leaning towards Hexblade because he seems like a charismatic type. He might also be an Ardent, from Complete Psionic.

Miron is probably a sorcerer or 3.5 warlock; he has the mysterious demeanor of an arcane caster, but he doesn't strike me as a wizard. Plus, Charisma is the casting stat for sorcerer spells and the spell-like abilities of 3.5 warlocks.

Catfolk Girl is definitely a rogue, probably with decent Intelligence and/or Charisma.

Ioun Stone Woman is probably a Psion, or a Wilder; Psions are an Intelligence based class, Wilders are a Charisma based class.

[Emmit Svenson]

I still like blackguard levels on Tarquin, based on his familiarity with Sabine’s ample charms and Sabine’s knowledge of the rewards associated with converting someone to blackguard--two dangling plot threads that could make an interesting little knot. If he’s a fallen good guy, that also dovetails nicely with all the Vader-Luke references he and Elan dropped.

Could he be a single-class fighter? Certainly. But the strip already has a prominent stereotype-defying intelligent single-class fighter, whereas the blackguard class is conspicuous by its absence from a tale that has included scores of paladins and made the fall of one a major plot point.

Given his wide selection of feats, I’d say fighter levels on him, too.

I’ve got nothing to add to what’s been said of the absent four, other than noting that the pairs have teamed up in other configurations as the nations they rule changed, which might give more context of when wand-scarf guy was helping Tarquin torment his fiancee. Also, showing him with a wand might be an indication that he wouldn’t normally have access to cold spells, ruling out wizard.

[Raineh Daze]

I don't think "Shoulder Pad Guy" is a Fighter; I think he might be a Hexblade, a Psychic Warrior or even a Spellsword. I'm leaning towards Hexblade because he seems like a charismatic type. He might also be an Ardent, from Complete Psionic.

Miron is probably a sorcerer or 3.5 warlock; he has the mysterious demeanor of an arcane caster, but he doesn't strike me as a wizard. Plus, Charisma is the casting stat for sorcerer spells and the spell-like abilities of 3.5 warlocks.

Catfolk Girl is definitely a rogue, probably with decent Intelligence and/or Charisma.

Ioun Stone Woman is probably a Psion, or a Wilder; Psions are an Intelligence based class, Wilders are a Charisma based class.

With these suggestions, the entire party would probably have abnormally high Charisma. Is that really likely? :smallamused:

[Clericzilla]

With these suggestions, the entire party would probably have abnormally high Charisma. Is that really likely? :smallamused:

It explains how they are able to convince people to be puppet rulers...

[Raineh Daze]

I thought the ability to convince people was explained by their being stupidly gullible in the first place. Like a red dragon that thinks eating people will let her reach higher age categories faster. :smalltongue:

[Koo Rehtorb]

I don't think they're anything too far out of core rules because the comic generally tends to stick to core stuff and not dive too deeply into 3.5s' numerous splatbooks. I think they're going to be stuff that's available on the SRD unless proven otherwise.

I also don't think Tarquin is a blackguard because he just gives off the general vibe of being his own man. Relying on benefits from devils doesn't seem like his style.

[Rakoa]

I don't think they're anything too far out of core rules because the comic generally tends to stick to core stuff and not dive too deeply into 3.5s' numerous splatbooks. I think they're going to be stuff that's available on the SRD unless proven otherwise.

I also don't think Tarquin is a blackguard because he just gives off the general vibe of being his own man. Relying on benefits from devils doesn't seem like his style.

I second this. While to argue that a certain class doesn't fit someone's style, Blackguard certainly does not suit Tarquin. He is the kind of person who fights using his own abilities and skills, and of course his own force of personality.

[Cyllan]

I mostly agree with the OP, but there are a few differences. Here's my idea about Tarquin's party:

They're all epic level or near epic (with the possible exception of Malack, but he's a vampire, so...)

Team Leader Tarquin
Lawful Evil fighter (maybe? I'm open to other ideas) with high physical and mental attributes (similar to Roy, though Tarquin probably has more Charisma, that attribute seems to run in the family).

Malack
Lawful Evil vampire cleric

Miron Shewdanker
Lawful Evil sorcerer, wizard, or warlock.

"Catgirl"
Neutral Evil (remember, Tarquin doesn't work with loose cannons) rogue.

"ISL"
Neutral Evil wizard or psion?

"SPG"
Lawful Evil fighter or possibly blackguard?

[Fish]

Entirely possible, but since The Giant has developed so many things with so much detail and has apparently hinted at another prequel ...
True, but neither fact together or separately would prove that any specific character is more than a cameo. Remember all the speculation on ... what was her name, Huerta? The Necromancer soul? And remember how Jirix wasn't really intended to be a character until Rich retro-decided he needed one?

I assume Rich doesn't do more work than necessary. We don't know whether it was.

[Rui]

In my opinion:

Tarquin - Fighter with charisma and strength as his best stats. He is all melee and use axe (probably as a weapon specialization) and I bet that he uses int as his third stat (realized Roy's trap, knows the drow language) and we saw that he never leaves his house without a ring of regeneration, in his exact words. Probably because he doesn't have lots of hit points (con again). I'm sure that he is lawful evil.

Malack - As a ranged cleric character, I'm pretty sure that Malack has his wis and dex stats up. Why is that? because Durkon kept miss him all the time, and that dwarf has some strength. I guess that he use his charisma or int for the third stat. He is neutral evil or lawful evil.

Miron - I think that this guy is a sorcerer. I'm pretty sure that ISL is a wizard with a lot of int, so sorcerer can't hurt with a wizard on the party. As a sorcerer he can also put lots of ranks in use magic device (and we saw him using one, and I guess that it is his main stat) and get a high bonus. I think that he is lawful evil (at least one lawful to every group to keep things good).

Mirons EoT companion (shoulder pad guy: "SPG") - I think he is a fighter too, he is clearly a melee. Tarquin said that he won't work with loose cannons like Thog so he cannot be a barbarian. I think his main stat is strength or con and the second is which one from the two that he didn't choose as the main one. Mabye charisma is his third, he talked to the king too. I don't really sure, but I think he is neutral evil.

"Catgirl" - I bet all my money that she is a rouge. dex is her main stat with strength her second (I think she is melee with wizard on her team) and wis or charisma as her third one (she didn't speak to the queen, her friend did). We saw her stealing and killing, meaning she is almost certainly chaotic evil.

Ion stone lady (ISL) - I can bet she is wizard, with int as her max stat and wis (because you got wis dude in party of 6) as her second, probably charisma (we saw HER and not the "Catgirl" speaking to the queen). I can guess that she is lawful evil or neutral evil.

So in the end, in my opinion, they have this party:

Tarquin - Fighter, charisma 1st and strength 2nd stats, lawful evil.
Malack - Cleric, wisdom 1st and dexterity 2nd stats, lawful evil/neutral evil.
Miron - Sorcerer, charisma 1st and wisdom/dexterity 2nd stats, lawful evil.
"SPT" - Fighter, strength 1st and constitution 2nd stats, neutral evil.
"Catgirl" - Rouge, dexterity 1st and strength 2nd stats, chaotic evil.
"ISL" - Wizard, intelligence 1st and charisma 2nd stats, lawful evil.

[hamishspence]

There's plenty of lawful-leaning thieves- they tend to lead Thieves Guilds and rule them with an iron fist.

Bozzok springs to mind.

Nothing bars "Catgirl" from being NE or LE.

[Rui]

That look when she stole from the merchant and send him to his death?
Pretty sure that a chaotic evil look.

[skaddix]

Not sure why it was CE. LE and NE can enjoy killing just as much.

[Paseo H]

At this point, now I'm wondering if maybe they're all sickeningly evil monsters in their own way.

Speculation/Spoilers ahead:

While I admit I'm going by basic look and posture, I'm guessing that ISL is the Vaarsuvius of the group. And then, given that, another thought hit me: What if she's connected, perhaps either by family or by apprenticeship, to Haerta Bloodsoak? She could be able to use Familicide, only without any remorse.

[Purgatorius]

I'm guessing that ISL and Catwoman are the most evil ones. None of others had their servants standing guard in a sauna dressed i metal helmets. Queen Shvitzer's guard in strip 758 has a +80°C bucket on his head. :smalleek:

[ellindsey]

It might also be useful to consider Tarquin's description of the classic team lineup in 819: Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, Jack-of-all-trades fifth man, and the "internal foil "sixth member to provide conflict. Presumably the first four would map to Tarquin, Catgirl, Miron, Malack, and the last two would be SPG and ISL although I'm not sure which would be which. That might imply that either SPG or ISL was the token non-evil member of the group.

[VanaGalen]

Considering Tarquin's plan, I would say in each kingdom there has to be:
-one person with high charisma; Which I think are Tarquin himself and the casters in other two kingdoms.
-one person of lawful (possibly evil) alignment; Here we have both Tarquin and Malack and again, the two casters.

I like the idea of Tarquin having blackguard levels, but I think he doesn't show enough zeal for that. After all, blackguard should be a bit paladinish ;) Plus, he doesn't seem to me like a multiclassing type.

That Miron guy looks so gloomy, he's got to be warlock or at least a necromancer. I think it's interesting why Tarquin didn't pair him up with himself, sending Malack to the Weepies instead. They seem to have great time together torturing Tarquin's fiancées and Miron's clothing suggest he's some sort of a caster, so he would go well with warrior Tarquin.

The Shoulder-Pad Guy must be a fighter and I think his light armor and bare chest scream "barbarian". After all, barbarians don't have to be neither chaotic nor dumb, so I'll go with NE barbarian with decent int.

I agree Catgirl is probably a rouge, but have you considered she might also be a ranger? As for her personality, she looks very belkarlike, though perhaps more reasonable.

Ion Stone Lady is clearly some sort of arcane caster, I think she must be a sorceress. She seems to be the advisor of the Queen, and she probably uses diplomacy-related skills a lot. Therefore it would make sense if charisma was her main stat. I know it's highly unlikely, but she looks a bit elvish to me...


Edit: after looking at them once more, I noticed the Shoulder-Pad Guy actually has some sort of full plate armor with a strip of cloth over it. That doesn't look like something a barbarian would wear, so I guess he might be a blackguard after all.

[Raineh Daze]

I agree Catgirl is probably a rouge, but have you considered she might also be a ranger? As for her personality, she looks very belkarlike, though perhaps more reasonable.

She seems more of an orange, honestly.:smallamused:

[Paseo H]

It might serve us well to more fully map out the correspondences:


Tarquin: Either Elan or Roy
Miron: Belkar - The whole torture thing
Malack: Durkon - The cleric
Catwoman: Haley - Dresses similarly and is the roguish type
ISL: Vaarsuvius - Similarly, kinda comes off V-ish
SPG: Either Roy or Elan


Everyone agree?

[Onyavar]

It might serve us well to more fully map out the correspondences:
Tarquin: Either Elan or Roy
Miron: Belkar - The whole torture thing
Malack: Durkon - The cleric
Catwoman: Haley - Dresses similarly and is the roguish type
ISL: Vaarsuvius - Similarly, kinda comes off V-ish
SPG: Either Roy or Elan
Everyone agree?Yyyyep. Without knowing anything about SPG, he and Tarquin are perhaps comparable to Roy and Elan. As we know, Tarquin is Elan with Roys leadership capabilities. So SPG might be Roy-style fighter with the light-hearted nature of Elan. (not good, of course, but maybe he's a nonevil - possibly CN - foil to provide fun and internal conflict, as ellindsey pointed out here:
It might also be useful to consider Tarquin's description of the classic team lineup in 819: Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, Jack-of-all-trades fifth man, and the "internal foil "sixth member to provide conflict. Presumably the first four would map to Tarquin, Catgirl, Miron, Malack, and the last two would be SPG and ISL although I'm not sure which would be which. That might imply that either SPG or ISL was the token non-evil member of the group.


[...]Tarquin said that he won't work with loose cannons like Thog so [... SPG] cannot be a barbarian.[...]All your stuff is convincing, Rui, but here I want to add, that SPG could well be a barbarian. Barbarian doesn't necessarily mean loose cannon like Belkar/Thog. Still, his heavy armor is a contra-indicator, against barbarian. Well... Maybe he is just a plain fighter without complicated multiclass background? That would be refreshing if all the others have multitemplates like werecat-rogue, vampire-cleric and whatever-tarquin-is.

All in all, I eagerly await more comics that provide more details about those guys. Hopefully not the big reveal, but little by little, so that we can continue our epileptic speculations. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Gift Jeraff]

While I think it's silly to make all this speculation out of only 2-4 panels and nearly no dialogue, here's my take on the party:

Assuming they more-or-less follow what Tarquin considered a classic team in #819 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html), Tarquin as the fighter, Malack as the cleric, and Catgirl as the rogue are the easy and obvious answers. Shoulder Pad Guy as the wizard seems highly unlikely.

Miron Shewdanker as the Wizard: Obviously possible, considering we've seen him cast from a wand.

Miron Shewdanker as the Jack-of-All-Trades: This also seems possible, considering he looks like he could be an assassin or maybe some weird multiclass like Nale and Girard. I personally think the look is just one of the cultural motifs, though.

Miron Shewdanker as the Foil: This seems possible from a story perspective. He seems to be involved in the Ivy/Geoff/Bozzok conspiracy, so him having some agenda of his own would be fitting.

Shoulder Pad Guy as the Jack-of-All-Trades: He definitely looks like he could be a blackguard, which I suppose is "jack-of-all-trade-y" enough to count.

Shoulder Pad Guy as the Foil: He looks like he's annoyed when Tarquin's explaining his plan, so maybe he was on bad terms with Tarquin and/or the whole party before they stopped adventuring. Or it could just be a stern/serious/tough look. I could see being a blackguard conflicting with Tarquin's "above good and evil" philosophy.

Ioun Stone Lady as the Wizard: Obviously possible.

Ioun Stone Lady as the Jack-of-All-Trades: I suppose it's possible.

Ioun Stone Lady as the Foil: Maybe she is cold and logical and genuinely assisting Tarquin because she truly thinks it is the most efficient way to minimalize the suffering to the Western Continent. So maybe she is/was "Evil for sorta-Neutral-ish causes" as opposed to everyone else being flatout Super Evil.

[Rui]

Yyyyep. Without knowing anything about SPG, he and Tarquin are perhaps comparable to Roy and Elan. As we know, Tarquin is Elan with Roys leadership capabilities. So SPG might be Roy-style fighter with the light-hearted nature of Elan. (not good, of course, but maybe he's a nonevil - possibly CN - foil to provide fun and internal conflict, as ellindsey pointed out here:

All your stuff is convincing, Rui, but here I want to add, that SPG could well be a barbarian. Barbarian doesn't necessarily mean loose cannon like Belkar/Thog. Still, his heavy armor is a contra-indicator, against barbarian. Well... Maybe he is just a plain fighter without complicated multiclass background? That would be refreshing if all the others have multitemplates like werecat-rogue, vampire-cleric and whatever-tarquin-is.

All in all, I eagerly await more comics that provide more details about those guys. Hopefully not the big reveal, but little by little, so that we can continue our epileptic speculations. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Thank you :smallsmile:
And yes, I think he is a warrior (or blackguard?)

Someone machination that Tarquin wont work with loose like chaotic-evil. I concur, yet I think he can make exception for rouge... maybe the "Catgirl" is neutral evil. That's an option.

[Envyus]

That Miron guy looks so gloomy, he's got to be warlock or at least a necromancer. I think it's interesting why Tarquin didn't pair him up with himself, sending Malack to the Weepies instead. They seem to have great time together torturing Tarquin's fiancées and Miron's clothing suggest he's some sort of a caster, so he would go well with warrior Tarquin.


They switch up partners to keep things fresh when they topple one of their kingdom's

[Sir_Leorik]

I don't think they're anything too far out of core rules because the comic generally tends to stick to core stuff and not dive too deeply into 3.5s' numerous splatbooks. I think they're going to be stuff that's available on the SRD unless proven otherwise.

I also don't think Tarquin is a blackguard because he just gives off the general vibe of being his own man. Relying on benefits from devils doesn't seem like his style.

Psionics are part of the SRD, so they aren't too far outside of the "Core Rules". And both Psions and Warlocks have been mentioned in the strip. Plus there's this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html)

[Sir_Leorik]

I thought the ability to convince people was explained by their being stupidly gullible in the first place. Like a red dragon that thinks eating people will let her reach higher age categories faster. :smalltongue:

The party is made up of highly Intelligent and Charismatic individuals; their marks are all stupid, gullible and usually have poor self-esteem, with low Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma scores.

[SaintRidley]

The party is made up of highly Intelligent and Charismatic individuals; their marks are all stupid, gullible and usually have poor self-esteem, with low Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma scores.

Of course, we have evidence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html) that if you're good enough at lying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0768.html), pretty much anybody will count as gullible relative to you.

[chillmynaga]

[QUOTE=Bulldog Psion;14773627]It is intriguing to speculate on the party makeup. Of course, we're not even sure if Tarquin himself is a straight fighter yet, or if he has a prestige class or is some oddball class like Factotum.

I think that Tarquin has the Master Thrower prestige class. It has the ability to snatch arrows and do have a trick shot of some sort, which he clearly does with his axe. It is possible that he could have just taken feats to gain these abilities, but it would have been easier just to take levels in this class

[Needle]

Why is everyone so eager on discarding chaotic evil? Chaotic Evil =/= Loose Cannon, Thog abyssal INT/WIS combo IS. If CE truly were "a loose cannon", then Tarquin would had rejected working with Sabine and Thog, not just Thog :smalltongue:

So, what if the Catgirl is CE but has decent INT/WIS? nothing to high, just enough to be outside the loose cannon category. Anyways, that's mainly because I think SPG is CE, his annoyance at hearing Tarquin's plan and his way of telling the Weepie King he needs "another Port City" hints me that :smalltongue:

[VanaGalen]

For all we know, some of them might be Chaotic. However, the fact that they have been working together on creating one, big evil empire for several years, points to neutral or lawful regions.

Anyway, I think it's hard to pinpoint their alignment when half of them didn't even speak a single line in the comic. We are not even sure if they're all evil and law-chaos alignment is even harder to determine.

[Kuroshima]

Rise thread, rise!

Has anybody considered that Tarquin might have dipped (or even taken significant levels) into Marshal? He probably exhibits too much fighting ability to be a single class marshal, but fighter 4/marshal 16+ would allow him to be near or low level epic, be a good fighter (weapon focus/specialization), and be more akin to Elan's bardness? It also justifies the high cha without requiring non-traditional builds (and we already have a non-traditional fighter in Roy). This allows us to make SPG into a straight fighter, and makes Tarquin into more of a general/ruler.

[Cake Elemental]

Hmm, it just occured to me that Miron looks a lot like Geoff and they are both involved in the Ian subplot (Haley got the letter from Miron, Geoff is in jail with Ian, etc.).
Maybe they are one and the same person and he is just there to keep an eye on Ian. It would at least explain how they keep catching him again and again.

Coincidence? Red Herring? Just another crazy theory? :smallconfused:

[GSFB]

You are all forgetting something important: age, and what that means in terms of versions of D&D.

Team Tarquin in the flashbacks are ~ 20-25 years in the past, based on Nale being a toddler and assuming Nale is in his mid 20's now. Further, even 20-25 years back, they were already clearly an experienced and powerful group, based on Tarquin's ability to successfully defeat many kingdoms and then implement his triumvirate. That means the party had likely been adventuring at least 30 years ago.

What does this mean? It means they all got started as adventurers in the days of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, not 3.5 or 3.0 or even Second Edition. Therefore, we must assume they all started out using AD&D classes and are now either grandfathered or converted.

So with that in mind, what does that mean for them in terms of classes?

One thing I will add: regardless of how Tarquin started out, if he is a 3.5 NPC today, then I believe he surely now has 10 levels of the Warmaster prestige class, on top of whatever ever fighter/other levels he carried into 3.0 and 3.5.

[Caex]

You are all forgetting something important: age, and what that means in terms of versions of D&D.

Team Tarquin in the flashbacks are ~ 20-25 years in the past, based on Nale being a toddler and assuming Nale is in his mid 20's now. Further, even 20-25 years back, they were already clearly an experienced and powerful group, based on Tarquin's ability to successfully defeat many kingdoms and then implement his triumvirate. That means the party had likely been adventuring at least 30 years ago.

What does this mean? It means they all got started as adventurers in the days of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, not 3.5 or 3.0 or even Second Edition. Therefore, we must assume they all started out using AD&D classes and are now either grandfathered or converted.

So with that in mind, what does that mean for them in terms of classes?

Very good point, though sadly I've not looked at it enough to have a worthwhile response. Instead I'll respond to the last thing you said:


One thing I will add: regardless of how Tarquin started out, if he is a 3.5 NPC today, then I believe he surely now has 10 levels of the Warmaster prestige class, on top of whatever ever fighter/other levels he carried into 3.0 and 3.5.

That is also intriguing, but one thing sticks out at me: how does he get around the class requirement to be non-evil?

[Gift Jeraff]

You are all forgetting something important: age, and what that means in terms of versions of D&D.

Team Tarquin in the flashbacks are ~ 20-25 years in the past, based on Nale being a toddler and assuming Nale is in his mid 20's now. Further, even 20-25 years back, they were already clearly an experienced and powerful group, based on Tarquin's ability to successfully defeat many kingdoms and then implement his triumvirate. That means the party had likely been adventuring at least 30 years ago.

Actually, we have exact numbers:
-Nale is 22 years old (21 about a year ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html))
-Tarquin has been doing the behind the thrones scheme for 15 or so years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)
-Tarquin and Malack were adventuring together 35 years ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html)

[GSFB]

That is also intriguing, but one thing sticks out at me: how does he get around the class requirement to be non-evil?

I did not realize that was a requirement, but checking on-line reveals you are correct - so scratch that. However, the basic idea of the prestige class, a class built to be a strategic leader of armies, fits with Tarquin. So I will state that he likely has something very similar in his build.

And as we know he is prepared for pun-defense (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html), he clearly has been able to utilize every old third-party rules book out there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html). So my guess is, he has many levels of assorted prestige classes, most likely optimized for maximum tactical power - as in 1 level of this, 2 levels of that, chosen to get the most bang for buck from classes with a lot of power in the lower levels. It's probably where Nale got the idea to multi-class so much - except in Tarquin's case, it was carefully planned out to munchkinize his power, rather than cobbled together ineffectively.


Actually, we have exact numbers:
-Nale is 22 years old (21 about a year ago)
-Tarquin has been doing the behind the thrones scheme for 15 or so years
-Tarquin and Malack were adventuring together 35 years ago

I love that people are willing to search back and find information like this! So yes, Tarquin was a character at least 35 years ago, so that makes him at least as old as AD&D and possibly, if he was adventuring before meeting Malack, even going back to Chainmail days.

[One Step Two]

I believe there was a certain parallel with Tarquins group the the order, but it not in the same capabilities as the order, but certain Similarities.
A classic Fighter, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric, a Fifth-Man, and a Foil, specifically. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html)

In this, we can presume, perhaps, that SPG is their Fighter, Catgirl is their Rogue, and we can definetly say that Malack was their Cleric. To me Tarquin is the Jack-of-all Trades as the Fifth man, though with a strictly more martial bent. He's skilled certainly, but unless he's been hiding his spellcasting, we can rule him out specifically as a bard. This Leaves Miron and ISL in the running for Wizard, and presumably, Foil.

Now, Tarquin's group might be too efficient to contain a proper Foil to cause conflict. But, and I cannot stress that this is just some side-line theorizing on my part, that ISL is the Neutral Good/Lawful Neutral Foil for the party. Positioned to work with the the Empire of Sweat to act as liberators against the evils of the Empire of Tears and Blood, with the over-arching goal of bringing order to the entire Western Continent, or for the greater good of everyone involved therein.

But that's quite a leap to make, but I thought it might make for interesting food for thought.

TL;DR: The group might comprised on a different set of ideals than specific Class, as Tarquin has described before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html)

PS: I am willing to say ISL being a Psion of some description sounds pretty neat.

[prism6691]

I don't think I've seen enough to make any judgements about the team other than ISL has to be high level magic user or psion.

However I was re-reading the Bard class info and it mentioned how if a Bard becomes Lawful he keeps all of his powers but can't advance any more Bard levels. Wouldn't it be interesting if Tarquin has a few levels in Bard and multi-classed to fighter early on (after an alignment shift). It would explain his genre savyness, his high charisma, and adds some depth to the criticism of Bards that Nale relayed to Elan.

[Dr. Murgunstrum]

Perhaps this is madness, but perhaps Tarquin IS a Bard.

A 1st edition Bard.

Consider:

5-7 levels of fighter. 5-9 levels of thief. Then onwards with bard-dom.

Of course, we've seen no druid powers or singing, so unlikely, but it would be a charming bit of rules arcana that showcases a roguish warlord who understands plot and theatrics so well.

I do hope the Giant makes them 1E character classes, like Haley's father is a thief, but his reticence with using D&D references these days might kibosh that notion.

[Amphiox]

Tarquin can pun-fence, suggesting that he has a few levels in Dashing Swordsman, or an equivalent evil (assuming Dashing Swordsman needs to be non-evil) prestige class.

At this point I'll throw out the possibility that Malack was not Team Tarquin's only, or primary Cleric. His Vampire CR bonus means that for many of their adventures he was probably at least a handful of real levels behind his teammates, which means he would be short on the number cleric spell slots that would be optimal for the kinds of level-appropriate encounters his party would probably be facing.

So perhaps the cleric role on Team Tarquin was shared between Malack and another party member. If that party member was a pure cleric, then maybe Malack usually operated as an auxiliary cleric/utility character using his vampire powers to disrupt the enemy. Alternately, perhaps the other cleric was a multi-class cleric with a similar number of cleric levels to Malack who shared primary cleric responsibilities equally with Malack.

This might also explain how Nale got the jump on Malack. Malack was actually not used to functioning as primary healer/cleric for a party, had to change his usual spell selection accordingly, weakening his normal array of prepared defences, and the need to concentrate more on a role he was not used to made him more vulnerable to being surprised by Nale.

In which case perhaps Miron Shewdanker is a cleric (and his holy symbol is in his headwrap) or a druid, either single or multi-classed.

[Amphiox]

Another thing to consider concerning the dynamics of Tarquin's Team is that Malack, thanks to his Vampire status, would have leveled more slowly than the others, while they would all have earned similar amounts of total experience (before adjustments) if they had adventured together.

They all seem to be roughly equal in power now (CR/equivalent level 17-20), but it may not have started that way. It may have started with them all being about the same in class level and with Malack simply over powered by his vampire status. Malack may have carried the team in the early going, but the others gradually caught up to him and surpassed him as they leveled more rapidly.

This also raises the possibility that the whole team did not form simultaneously. A smaller team may have started out, maybe Malack plus Tarquin and one or two others, and they used Malack's overpowered vampire status to make up for their smaller numbers, only to recruit new members later, possibly another cleric, once Malack's cleric levels started to fall behind to the point where he didn't have enough spell slots to optimally support the group on his own for the things they wanted to do.

This raises an alternate possibility as well, that Malack really was the group's only cleric, and they stopped adventuring because they reached a point where Malack's cleric levels had fallen too far behind the rest of the group's levels to effectively support them in level-appropriate quests anymore.

[davidbofinger]

I think it's highly unlikely The Giant would create half a dozen characters and not take advantage of the number to cover a wide range of types. So it's unlikely all Tarquin's Team will be high-charisma. And it's unlikely they are all evil, some will be neutral. It's even possible one will be a good-aligned anti-Belkar fallen into bad company, supporting a dream of a Western continent free of war - IOUN stone magician woman is my candidate for that, partly because she looks unhappy when Tarquin reveals the plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), partly for no good reason.

[Gift Jeraff]

How does she look unhappy? The guy on the left looks unhappy.

[Paseo H]

IOUN stone magician woman is my candidate for that, partly because she looks unhappy when Tarquin reveals the plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), partly for no good reason.

She's Team Tarquin's equivalent of V. That explains her impassive demeanor.

[Alan_Pehnereas]

We don't know much about Tarquins cronies in EoT and EoS.
757, 758 and 759 are to my knowledge the only comics where they showed up.
[ Edit: 817 ]

Might wanna add 910 to that list.

[Sunken Valley]

Tarquin considers the perfect party to be "Fighter, Wizard, Rogue and Cleric, with the jack of all trades Bard as the 5th man". Plus Foil.

Malack is the Cleric.
Tarquin from what we've seen appears to the fighter.
Ioun Stone Lady appears to be Wizard (or psion. Similar thing).
Cat girl is rogue.
The foil is not Malack or Miron (Tarquin would not want to work with the foil personally). I doubt it's Ioun Stone Lady because 910. That leaves Cat Girl (who gave Tarquin a carpet) or shoulder pad. Shoulder Pad (secondary warrior) is foil.
Leaving Miron as the jack of all trades bard (wand indicates UMD).

[Porthos]

What does this mean? It means they all got started as adventurers in the days of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, not 3.5 or 3.0 or even Second Edition. Therefore, we must assume they all started out using AD&D classes and are now either grandfathered or converted.

So with that in mind, what does that mean for them in terms of classes?

One thing I will add: regardless of how Tarquin started out, if he is a 3.5 NPC today, then I believe he surely now has 10 levels of the Warmaster prestige class, on top of whatever ever fighter/other levels he carried into 3.0 and 3.5.
There's a problem with this presumption. While in the early days of OotS The Past Was Indeed Previous Editions, it looks like by the time we first see the Order of the Scribble, that idea looks to have been nuked.

When we get the flashback seeing what the Order of the Scribble was up to, there are discussions about 3e style multiclassing and there is no restrictions on what races can become what classes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) (Serini talks about 'taking a level in Paladin' - Kraagor is a Barbarian).

Worse, in Start of Darkness:

Xykon is clearly a 3e style Sorcerer.
There is talk about rules for Monster Classes. And at the creation of the world there is a comment about 3e style level adjusements.
The Dark Lord is 'rumored to have a presitge class'.

The later is part of a conversation made between Redcloak and Xykon 30 years before the start of the comic.

Now while there are still jokes about previous editions (his ass got knocked back to Basic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0748.html)), I'd be leery of trying to figure out what past classes Tarquin and co actually had. OotS hasn't been very consistent on that score.

Unless it was furthering a joke. :smalltongue:

[DeliaP]

Just an attempt to offer some alternatives:

For some reasons I thought of Miron as a monk, but the wand use seems to undermine that. He could be a rogue, though (and would need to be for the "Miron is Geoff" WMG :-) )

But what of Catgirl? Well, why are we jumping to the conclusion she is the rogue? Because of a flying carpet fight and light/no armour? How about Catgirl is a monk? Attempting to fill in the fifth person slot?

And here's a thought: they have two melee fighters, SPG and Tarquin. Maybe Tarquin is the Foil?? He is apparently the one most likely to go out of his way for a wacky (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html) joke (panel 12) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html)? I can see him being the one that brings all the comedy gold to Team Tarquin!

[davidbofinger]

There is one problem to my theory though: simply put, if the rest of them are all about as dangerous as Tarquin, like I believe they are, then they would easily crush the Order of the Stick in a fair fight, and possibly even Team Evil (if all six of them were there).

Does this suggest other groups also have powerful characters? The elves of the western continent, for instance, are strong enough Tarquin moves cautiously around them. I suppose it's possible they could achieve that without powerful individuals but it doesn't seem all that likely. The dwarves of the Northern continent are another candidate - how powerful are the high priests of Odin and Thor, for instance?

[Kish]

While I do not expect this to be showcased (The comic is still The Order of the Stick, not The Awesome Team Tarquin), my guess is that each of the members of Tarquin's group is, like Tarquin and Malack, a sugar-coating hiding Xykon-level evil--each charming in a different way (and to a different overlapping subset of readers), each horrifically vile in a different way.

That doesn't mean they all have high Charisma; indeed, I think there's a good chance that, with the blunt directness and lack of diplomacy of Malack's persona, his Charisma was lower than Durkon's before Malack's vampire boost was added in.

[Rakoa]

The Awesome Team Tarquin...I'd read that. I think the Giant mentioned the Amazing Adventures of Shojo at one point. I'd also read that. I mean, come on! Those just sound awesome.

[Fish]

I'm just throwing this out there as a possibility. It may well be that Tarquin did not choose his teams based on D&D compatibility, but on personal dynamics.

Maybe Shoulder Pads and Ioun Stone hate each other. Maybe Ioun Stone and Catgirl were lovers. Maybe Tarquin thought that nation would be more easily swayed by, or have respect for, the two males. Maybe Spellcaster Dude had family near one country and had to be stationed nearby (or far away).

All I'm saying is, don't bank too much on seeing everything in light of D&D rules or optimization.

[Mike Havran]

As of #911, we know that Ioun Stone Lady's name is Laurin Shattersmith and she's psion (probably at least lv.18).

[Bird]

While we see Laurin speaking in a flashback panel, she's oddly taciturn -- to the point where she doesn't even speak when introduced in the latest strip. I wonder if she prefers to communicate telepathically, or if her brain is quite busy at the moment reading some minds...

[GSFB]

While we see Laurin speaking in a flashback panel, she's oddly taciturn -- to the point where she doesn't even speak when introduced in the latest strip. I wonder if she prefers to communicate telepathically, or if her brain is quite busy at the moment reading some minds...

Have we seen psions doing psion things other than LS and her gate before? I ask because, I wonder if she could be mind reading without there being some type of psion energy around her?

[Stanabanana]

I believe there was a certain parallel with Tarquins group the the order, but it not in the same capabilities as the order, but certain Similarities.
A classic Fighter, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric, a Fifth-Man, and a Foil, specifically. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html)

Following this line, here's my theory.

I'm going to guess that the full-party panel in #758 shows Team Tarquin's marching order left-to-right, which matches OOTS's marching order shown on the front Comic page as right-to-left. That would make their roles and OOTS counterparts as follows:

SPG (Roy): Main fighter type

Malack (Durkon): cleric-type

Catgirl (Haley): rogue-type

Miron Shewdanker (Elan): Support magic user, also secondary healer, Jack-of-all-trades

ISL (Vaarsuvius): wizard-type

...And that makes Tarquin...
Tarquin (Belkar): Secondary fighter, The Foil

[Bird]

Have we seen psions doing psion things other than LS and her gate before? I ask because, I wonder if she could be mind reading without there being some type of psion energy around her?
IIRC, the only characters absolutely confirmed as psions have been the "little psion that could" from the cutaway storybook panel, the blue that Redcloak hired, and Psymon from SS&DT.

And I think all of those did manifest some kind of psionic dweomer.

Still, I wouldn't put it past a high level character to have some kind of feat, item or ability that could mask a dweomer. Seems like something that would be useful if you wanted to read minds on the DL.

[Onyavar]

Updated the start post for Laurin Shattersmith.

I guess that the giant is avoiding to give his evil characters "real life" names: Xykon, Malack, Tarquin, Miron, Bozzok, Kubota, Tsukiko... The major villains don't have names that real people have, for the obvious reason that no real people can feel slandered in this way. Rich invents them instead.

But now, "Laurin", a real life name (well, maybe uncommon) and on top it is a clearly MALE one. This bothers me. Is it connected to the medieval Laurin saga? Or is this just a fantasty-variation of Laureen/Laura?

[Hytheter]

I guess that the giant is avoiding to give his evil characters "real life" names: Xykon, Malack, Tarquin, Miron, Bozzok, Kubota, Tsukiko...

the bolded are all in fact real names

[Paseo H]

Updated the start post for Laurin Shattersmith.

I guess that the giant is avoiding to give his evil characters "real life" names: Xykon, Malack, Tarquin, Miron, Bozzok, Kubota, Tsukiko... The major villains don't have names that real people have, for the obvious reason that no real people can feel slandered in this way. Rich invents them instead.

But now, "Laurin", a real life name (well, maybe uncommon) and on top it is a clearly MALE one. This bothers me. Is it connected to the medieval Laurin saga? Or is this just a fantasty-variation of Laureen/Laura?

As stated, you might be a bit off base, but pray, tell us about this Laurin saga. :smallsmile:

[Kish]

But now, "Laurin", a real life name (well, maybe uncommon) and on top it is a clearly MALE one.
......Huh?

[martianmister]

......Huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurin


I guess that the giant is avoiding to give his evil characters "real life" names: Xykon, Malack, Tarquin, Miron, Bozzok, Kubota, Tsukiko...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsukiko_Amano
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miron_%28name%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubota_%28disambiguation%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarquin

[Kish]

You've got a lot of faith in Wikipedia, don't you?

If Onyavar's reason for saying "clearly a MALE one" is that three men with that name are listed on Wikipedia, I'd prefer he say so himself.

[martianmister]

In Wikipaedia We Trust

[ellindsey]

In Wikipaedia We Trust

[citation required]

[Rakoa]

Oooo, that looks even better in the italicized in the quote box.

[Sir_Leorik]

Updated the start post for Laurin Shattersmith.

I guess that the giant is avoiding to give his evil characters "real life" names: Xykon, Malack, Tarquin, Miron, Bozzok, Kubota, Tsukiko... The major villains don't have names that real people have, for the obvious reason that no real people can feel slandered in this way. Rich invents them instead.

But now, "Laurin", a real life name (well, maybe uncommon) and on top it is a clearly MALE one. This bothers me. Is it connected to the medieval Laurin saga? Or is this just a fantasty-variation of Laureen/Laura?

Tarquin is a real name, take directly from Roman history. Malack is based on Malachi, a real Jewish name. Kubota, Tsukiko, Miko, Lien, even O-Chul, are all derived from Japanese, Chinese or Korean names. Last time I checked, Roy, Eugene, Julia, Haley, Ian, Geoff, Ivy and Crystal are all real names. "Laurin" is an alternate spelling of "Lauren", which I have seen used in the real world. Laurin is primarily a woman's name, in my experience. As for whether Rich would ever use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Tarquinius_Priscus) the name of a real life figure, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Tarquinius_Superbus) you may judge for yourself.

[Sir_Leorik]

Here's my take on Tarquin's group, now that we know Laurin's class:

Shoulder Pad Guy: Fighter, Barbarian or Psychic Warrior

Malack: Cleric

Catgirl: Rogue

Miron: Wizard, Sorcerer or Warlock

Laurin: Psion (discipline unknown)

Tarquin: Fighter, possibly Marshall

We don't have enough info to assign them "roles", but I would say that Tarquin is the party leader, Malack the healer, Laurin was the "wizard" and Miron was the Jack-Of-All-Trades. We're probably going to learn more info shortly, and maybe get the names of SPD and Catgirl before the end of Book Five.

[Gift Jeraff]

I know several Redcloaks and a Zz'dtri IRL

[Sir_Leorik]

I know several Redcloaks and a Zz'dtri IRL

Not to mention that "Xykon" and "Zykon" were both very popular names in the 1970's.

[brionl]

In regards to Cat-girl being a rouge.


She seems more of an orange, honestly.:smallamused:

So, instead of a Ranger, she could be a Naranja?
:smallbiggrin:

[Bulldog Psion]

I know several Redcloaks and a Zz'dtri IRL

Thank you for the unexpected guffaw. :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

("Guffaw" is such a repulsive sounding word that it deserves to be used more. :smallbiggrin: )

[Onyavar]

You've got a lot of faith in Wikipedia, don't you?

If Onyavar's reason for saying "clearly a MALE one" is that three men with that name are listed on Wikipedia, I'd prefer he say so himself.


the bolded are all in fact real names


Tarquin is a real name, take directly from Roman history. Malack is based on Malachi, a real Jewish name. Kubota, Tsukiko, Miko, Lien, even O-Chul, are all derived from Japanese, Chinese or Korean names. Last time I checked, Roy, Eugene, Julia, Haley, Ian, Geoff, Ivy and Crystal are all real names. "Laurin" is an alternate spelling of "Lauren", which I have seen used in the real world. Laurin is primarily a woman's name, in my experience. As for whether Rich would ever use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Tarquinius_Priscus) the name of a real life figure, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Tarquinius_Superbus) you may judge for yourself.


You've got a lot of faith in Wikipedia, don't you?

If Onyavar's reason for saying "clearly a MALE one" is that three men with that name are listed on Wikipedia, I'd prefer he say so himself.

Well, I know a Laurin. I also know two "Laurenz"es, which is more or less the same name (in english: "Lawrence"). The corresponding female form to Laurin is, I guess, "Laura", also a lot more common. Which is maybe "Laureen" in english, so having a female "Laurin" is justified. I was just looking at the comic with a "huh, what?" this morning.

The Laurin saga is known in southern Germany; it's basically an evil dwarf who has a cloak of invisibility. It's not near as popular as other tales, but I know about it from said friend.

About the other names, okay, I admit it: Tarquin is a a real life name. I'm sure that every Tarquin living today is totally outraged at the idea of a horrible dictator in this comic having the same name. I should have checked on the internet before claiming that no people are called Tsukiko, Kubota and Miron, too. Somewhere in the world, nearly any name is claimed by someone.

I just assumed the Giant is preferring non-existing names for his villains. If the hero of a story is named "Steve Miller" - no problem, all Steve Millers will feel great about it. However, not if their name is used for the villain. If you write a fantasy story and the evil dwarf kings name is "McCain", I'm sure one or the other person might feel offended; if you intended it or not.

A good strategy is to jumble some characters to create easily memorable fantasy names. J.R.R. Martin does this for lots of characters, I observed (Jon, Stephon, Kevan, Catelyn, Alyce, Jaime, Margaery, Martyn, Yohn...).


So, back to topic: What I observe is that Rich tends for each new "full party" to compose a new constellation of base classes.
He started the traditional cliche with the OotStick: fighter, elven wizard, dwarven cleric, rogue, halfling ranger, bard.
The Linear guild was slightly more complicated: Half-orc fighter, drow wizard, dwarven cleric, demon rogue, kobold ranger, sorceror-fighter-rogue.
The Order of the Scribble: Paladin, wizard, elven druid, halfling rogue, ranger-sorceror, dwarven barbarian.
The Linear guild, take 2: Half-orc fighter, half-elven wizard, gnome cleric, demon rogue, kobold duelist, sorceror-fighter-rogue.

From Team Tarquin, we already know two class/race combos: Vampire-snakefolk cleric; and psion of unknown subschool. Tarquin seems to have a complicated combo of fighting style and bard style classes, or something entirely else. If the rest of Team Tarquin are following their examples in non-traditional class choice, we might be in for a few surprises. Warlock Miron? Assassin/Shadowdancer Cargirl? Blackguard SPG?

[Rakoa]

Assassin/Shadowdancer Cargirl?

She gets Sneak Attacks by running you over in her Honda, engine roaring while she screams and throws daggers.

[Sir_Leorik]

I just assumed the Giant is preferring non-existing names for his villains. If the hero of a story is named "Steve Miller" - no problem, all Steve Millers will feel great about it. However, not if their name is used for the villain.

Given the horrors inflicted on the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Vecna_Die!) bythe real Steve Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Miller_(game_designer)), naming a fictional villain "Steve Miller" probably wouldn't bug him. Like all game designers for the "Ravenloft" line, he has thick skin. :smallamused:

[Sir_Leorik]

She gets Sneak Attacks by running you over in her Honda, engine roaring while she screams and throws daggers.

But only at night, while her car's headlights are off. Cause she's a Shadowdancer. :smalltongue:

[SavageWombat]

Given the horrors inflicted on the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Vecna_Die!) bythe real Steve Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Miller_(game_designer)), naming a fictional villain "Steve Miller" probably wouldn't bug him. Like all game designers for the "Ravenloft" line, he has thick skin. :smallamused:

The fact that you associate the horrors committed by a man named Steve Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Miller_(musician)) to be limited to game design suggests to me that you missed the 70s and 80s.

[Rakoa]

The fact that you associate the horrors committed by a man named Steve Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Miller_(musician)) to be limited to game design suggests to me that you missed the 70s and 80s.

It's official: Steve Miller will be the name of any Villain I ever create, ever.

[jere7my]

I just assumed the Giant is preferring non-existing names for his villains. If the hero of a story is named "Steve Miller" - no problem, all Steve Millers will feel great about it. However, not if their name is used for the villain. If you write a fantasy story and the evil dwarf kings name is "McCain", I'm sure one or the other person might feel offended; if you intended it or not.

I don't think avoiding offense is the intention. Villain names tend to be exotic, and common names are...not. Villains are usually "other" in some way, foreigners or nonhumans or solitary students of arcane power—and their names mark that. Even when they're not, their names are chosen to be unsettling. Lord Voldemort is more exotic and unfamiliar than Tom Riddle; Saruman is less friendly than Gandalf.

This sometimes creates offense, as authors seeking exotic-sounding names pillage existing cultures. When Ming the Merciless was created, westerners saw China as a distant, dark land, so "Ming" was a strong, unsettling choice for its time. Unfortunately, that kind of name reinforced the perception of Asians as exotic "others".

Heroes, at least the callow farm-boy kind of heroes, are given familiar, homespun names (Harry Potter), albeit perhaps with a hint of future greatness (Luke Skywalker).


A good strategy is to jumble some characters to create easily memorable fantasy names. J.R.R. Martin does this for lots of characters, I observed (Jon, Stephon, Kevan, Catelyn, Alyce, Jaime, Margaery, Martyn, Yohn...).

Jon and Jaime are pretty common real-world names. There are plenty of Alyces, too.

[Kish]

I also blink at the idea that Stephen, Alice, and Martin will find George (not J) R. R. Martin slightly misspelling their names to make a crucial difference in whether they find his usage of it offensive.

[Sir_Leorik]

The fact that you associate the horrors committed by a man named Steve Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Miller_(musician)) to be limited to game design suggests to me that you missed the 70s and 80s.

I only missed half of the 1970's, thank you very much! :smallannoyed:

[Bulldog Psion]

A good strategy is to jumble some characters to create easily memorable fantasy names. J.R.R. Martin does this for lots of characters, I observed (Jon, Stephon, Kevan, Catelyn, Alyce, Jaime, Margaery, Martyn, Yohn...).


Mostly, I find that strategy annoying, but that's only my opinion, of course.

[Hytheter]

Jon is also an actual name though, I've met more Jons than Johns

[KingFlameHawk]

I think that I am one of maybe 5 people in the world who thinks that Tarquin has levels in the marshal class. I have read an online page from Wizards (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b)) and Tarquin fits the role to a tee. He has high intelligence and Charisma, he can use all kinds of armor and weapons, and he is very diplomatic (they get Skill Focus (Diplomacy) as a bonus feat). I agree with a previous poster that he probably has a few levels in fighter to supplement his combat abilities.

So if Tarquin is a Marshal with a few levels of fighter I would think that SPG is a fighter with a few levels of Blackguard. I also think that Miron would be a Warlock, simply because we haven't seen a lot of them in the comic.

[DolGrenn]

Wait, I thought that the Giant named Tarquin and Malack after Grand Moff Tarkin (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wilhuff_Tarkin) and Darth Malak (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Malak) from Star Wars; you know, back when the whole Star Wars reference theme was going on? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html)

[GSFB]

I heard that Nicholas Cage is going to name his next child Laurin Zz'dtri - whether it's a boy or a girl.

[jere7my]

Wait, I thought that the Giant named Tarquin and Malack after Grand Moff Tarkin (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wilhuff_Tarkin) and Darth Malak (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Malak) from Star Wars; you know, back when the whole Star Wars reference theme was going on? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html)

Nope. If I recall Rich's post correctly, Tarquin was named for the Roman king, and Rich had never heard of Darth Malak.

[Sir_Leorik]

Wait, I thought that the Giant named Tarquin and Malack after Grand Moff Tarkin (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wilhuff_Tarkin) and Darth Malak (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Malak) from Star Wars; you know, back when the whole Star Wars reference theme was going on? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html)

There were two Roman kings named Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9527191&postcount=30). Malack is an alteration of the Jewish name "Malachi" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9521959&postcount=22).

[Gift Jeraff]

So, thus far every 6-man group has had an Int-based primary caster/manifester (V/Z/Pompey/Laurin/Dorukan), a Wis-based primary caster (Durkon/Hilgya/Leeky/Malack/Lirian), and a Cha-based caster who's not as caster-y (Elan/Nale/Girard). Therefore, I'm going to guess that Miron is an Arcane Trickster/Rogue/Sorcerer and a member of the Thieves' Guild.

[DolGrenn]

There were two Roman kings named Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9527191&postcount=30). Malack is an alteration of the Jewish name "Malachi" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9521959&postcount=22).

Wow, really? That's weird. And I had forgotten about the "Kotor" guy too.
What amazing coincidences!

[Sir_Leorik]

So, thus far every 6-man group has had an Int-based primary caster/manifester (V/Z/Pompey/Laurin/Dorukan), a Wis-based primary caster (Durkon/Hilgya/Leeky/Malack/Lirian), and a Cha-based caster who's not as caster-y (Elan/Nale/Girard). Therefore, I'm going to guess that Miron is an Arcane Trickster/Rogue/Sorcerer and a member of the Thieves' Guild.

Or Miron could be a "Complete Arcane" Warlock, which uses Charisma to set the save DC of their Eldritch Blasts.

[brionl]

So if Tarquin is a Marshal with a few levels of fighter I would think that SPG is a fighter with a few levels of Blackguard. I also think that Miron would be a Warlock, simply because we haven't seen a lot of them in the comic.

Just because they already have one psychic, and that type tends to run in flocks, I'm going to say that SPG is a Psychic Warrior.