Using a complicated Wish spell

[Xarteros]

I have a Ghoul character who's amassed quite a bit of wealth, and wants to invest in a Wish (by hiring a wizard to cast it from a scroll).

The idea of my Wish is to cut out my heart and make it a separate undead creature, with a telepathic link to me that gives me total control over it.

Part of the wish is the ability to allow the heart to bind to other material (bone and muscle) to increase its size and HD, and to be able to graft additional parts onto it to gain their abilities ( breath weapon glands of a dragon, beholder eyes for ray attacks etc).

the ultimate goal of this is to allow me to construct an undead tower from the bone, muscle and parts of the creatures that i personally kill, for me to live in. The heart is just sort of the binding component that lets the parts all function.

Keep in mind that I still need to manually harvest all the parts myself, and use any appropriate grafting feats and heal checks to prepare the parts for grafting. it's not an instant bonus, it's something i will spend the entire campaign (or more) working on

I have, of course, taken all sorts of considerations for the DM twisting my wish, and making sure my Heart won't be easy to destroy.

Is this a fair wish to make? I want to hear alternative suggestions/compromises if you don't think it is

[Ravens_cry]

Talk to your DM. This really isn't a question for the Playground.

[Psyren]

This sounds way beyond Wish's "safe zone." Especially the bit about grafting monster parts onto your heart to add their powers to the structure. This is the kind of thing you would need Epic Spells to pull off.



I have, of course, taken all sorts of considerations for the DM twisting my wish, and making sure my Heart won't be easy to destroy.

No matter how much legalese you use, there is one aspect to Wish that cannot be overcome:


(The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

This allows the DM to omit crucial clauses or clarifications in your Wish as he pleases. For example, he could drop the "give me total control over it" bit, and your new monster would come into being with no loyalty to you and greater power. In short order, your parts (and those of the hapless wizard) would be among the first to adorn and strengthen it.

Or if he was being more charitable, he would drop everything after "cut out my heart" and you would simply end up with a lump of flesh at your feet that does nothing.

[HunterOfJello]

Wish is a spell that is usually used to accomplish one specific big thing. What you're talking about is a list of big tasks and a long list of minor tasks attached on top of that.

If a character wants to go accomplish something like what you're talking about, then they should be casting a ton of spells to achieve it, we're talking 20 spells cast if not around 50. That isn't a task that a single spell would accomplish unless it's a high ranking Epic Spell specifically developed and designed to accomplish that extremely specific task.

[Flickerdart]

What would gluing your heart to an undead creature possibly accomplish?

[Xarteros]

well, realistically this is just like creating a tiny undead that can have multiple grafts attached.

The telepathic link isn't really too much to ask for, since constructs obey their masters orders. this isn't any different really

I'm not 100% sure on the rules of modifying undead or constructs with grafts, but i'm still going to have to pay any material cost or XP cost for the grafts, plus the time, plus the actual effort of harvesting them.
I remember reading that some constructs could just have extra material added for HD (and maybe size), so i just wanted the same function with adding the muscle/bone

If I were to get this, it would basically have no immediate purpose. It won't be able to fight, won't be able to use abilities or skills, it won't be able to do anything until i graft something onto it, and that won't be able to improve very quickly at all.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm, this would have been a more plausible setup if your heart actually served a function. As a ghoul, it is a lifeless lump of flesh with no special qualities, though it may be sustained by negative energy while still attached to you (though it is in no way vital to you as a heart is to a normalm living creature).

Consider using some form of Item Crafting. Some form of Craft Construct is probably more along the lines of what you want to do. I guess Graft Undead Flesh may still work with a construct that is bound together with negative energy, but we want to stay away from custom critter creation, since it is entirely the DM's purview on what results from necromantic experiments and custom create undead efforts.

So, maybe you make a flesh golem around a core of your heart. Make the flesh golem without legs or arms, a DM probably can be convinced that this is possible and will have a game effect on the golem (immobile, can't attack). Now your heart is part of a creature, and you can maybe graft to it/modify it?

Still, I don't see a straightforward way to move toward grafting flesh to it. Again, all things not covered by some manipulation of the rules, is DM territory. Craft Construct can be used to bend the fluff of various constructs toward your purposes.

Other than that, all I can think of is some kind of tower composed of that undead swarm from Underdark, All-Consuming Hunger. Trap it between walls of force and feed it stuff. Not really what you are looking for, though.

[SowZ]

I once made a two page wish spell. It ended up with my Stone Giant warrior gaining a shapeshifting form where I would shrink to Medium size and my physical stats would get a big nerf and my mental stats a big bump. Not: I had only some control of when I shifted between forms. It was useful, sort of, but not at all what I wanted. Beware of making overly complicated wishes.

[Renen]

You have to be a bloody lawyer to properly word a wish spell. And avoid DM's trolling

[Flickerdart]

well, realistically this is just like creating a tiny undead that can have multiple grafts attached.

The telepathic link isn't really too much to ask for, since constructs obey their masters orders. this isn't any different really

I'm not 100% sure on the rules of modifying undead or constructs with grafts, but i'm still going to have to pay any material cost or XP cost for the grafts, plus the time, plus the actual effort of harvesting them.
I remember reading that some constructs could just have extra material added for HD (and maybe size), so i just wanted the same function with adding the muscle/bone

If I were to get this, it would basically have no immediate purpose. It won't be able to fight, won't be able to use abilities or skills, it won't be able to do anything until i graft something onto it, and that won't be able to improve very quickly at all.
You want to replicate a powerful Epic spell (Origin of Species) and a better version of a 9th level power (True Mind Switch) that would actually cost more XP than Wish does. Asking Wish to replicate an equal level spell is already a dicey proposition, but two effects that are much higher level? Not a chance.

[Phelix-Mu]

You want to replicate a powerful Epic spell (Origin of Species) and a better version of a 9th level power (True Mind Switch) that would actually cost more XP than Wish does. Asking Wish to replicate an equal level spell is already a dicey proposition, but two effects that are much higher level? Not a chance.

I'd handle the telepathy thing separately. Indeed, I'd avoid using wish at all. Save up for a flesh golem, remove it's arms and legs and then pay to increase it's HD. Fluff the size increase as augmenting the form of the immobile golem into some kind of room.

Awaken construct spell at some future date to make the golem-building intelligent. Apply some form of permanent telepathy to the creature (not too hard), rary's telepathic bond, or interplanar telepathic bond if your DM lets you. You are missing most of the toys that could make this more plausible (like personal spellcasting).

In conclusion, wish is the least efficient way to create such a complex effect, as the only reason it would work is if the DM is in a really good mood.

[nedz]

Using a wish outside of the safe list is to invoke Rule 0.

Rule 0 is the most powerful rule in the game, which is one reason to avoid it wherever possible.

It's especially problematic as a player because Rule 0 is also known as DM fiat.

So how does your DM handle wishes ?
Is he permissive or strict ?
Does he twist them for a laugh ?
Is he even consistent in his approach ?
How many times have you used wish in this game, or seen it used ?

The playground doesn't know the answers to these questions, yet they are the only ones which matter.

[Rubik]

Actually, dismembered body parts are objects. A casting of Haunt Shift on an undead creature under your control (what about Obtain Familiar and Undead Familiar for...an undead familiar?) would bind it to the disembodied heart. From there, you merely use undead grafts and fun uses of things like Fabricate to turn flesh into other shapes before grafting them onto the Haunt Shifted heart.

[Ashtagon]

My general rule for wishes is that many things will work if they don't break the campaign. But if you intend on it actually working as desired, it must be in the form of a simple sentence. In terms of English grammar that means:


One sentence only.
No use of conjunctions ("and" or "or").
No use of relative clauses ("The house that Jack built.")


Now if you can fit all those desires into a single simple sentence, good luck.

But really, it's your Gm who has final say on this.

[Alienist]

( breath weapon glands of a dragon, beholder eyes for ray attacks etc).


The gland that gives True Dragons breath weapon attacks (and which all true dragons have by RAW) is well documented.

The easy way to get it is to just slice open a dragonwrought kobold ...

... except they don't have that gland. How peculiar!? The RAW says that all True Dragons have it, but dragonwrought kobolds don't?!?

Say it's not so!

[TypoNinja]

Talk to your DM. This really isn't a question for the Playground.

I have to echo this, you are asking for something extremely non-standard from a wish spell, and this seems important to you. Either discuss this with your DM so you have something you both like, or don't do it at all because if the DM isn't on board you'll probably feel cheated by whatever the wish does end up producing.

[8wGremlin]

Wish: "I wish to have an undead familiar, similar to a wizard of my experience"
Effect: gain obtain familiar, and be treated as wizard of my level for its masters level

Would most DMs allow that for a wish?

[Xarteros]

thanks for some of the suggestions guys.

Just as a note, the only reasons i'm asking here is to get a general idea of how fair/unfair the idea is, for people to poke holes in it and for people to suggest alternative ideas.

The only reason i even thought of using a wish is that it's the only thing i know of that can operate outside the rules, and that's only for the telepathic control part. To my knowledge, all the other forms of telepathic control can be dispelled/severed or countered by the creature, so i figured a wish could make it unbreakable for me.

I'm not sure if a construct of your creating will obey you no matter what, or if an awakened construct can overcome your control, so i don't know if that's a reasonable alternative. There are a few things i wanted to add to it that would require the undead type though, and i don't know how you could add undead as a subtype to construct.

[Rubik]

thanks for some of the suggestions guys.

Just as a note, the only reasons i'm asking here is to get a general idea of how fair/unfair the idea is, for people to poke holes in it and for people to suggest alternative ideas.

The only reason i even thought of using a wish is that it's the only thing i know of that can operate outside the rules, and that's only for the telepathic control part. To my knowledge, all the other forms of telepathic control can be dispelled/severed or countered by the creature, so i figured a wish could make it unbreakable for me.

I'm not sure if a construct of your creating will obey you no matter what, or if an awakened construct can overcome your control, so i don't know if that's a reasonable alternative. There are a few things i wanted to add to it that would require the undead type though, and i don't know how you could add undead as a subtype to construct.Again, an undead familiar would follow you and your commands, so using Haunt Shift to have it control your heart wouldn't be at all out of line for this. And best of all, you won't get screwed on your Wish.

[PetterTomBos]

Why use a wish? Why not have it be some sort of weird fleshcrafting skill, with GP cost balanced to the heart's strength?

[nedz]

Wish: "I wish to have an undead familiar, similar to a wizard of my experience"
Effect: gain obtain familiar, and be treated as wizard of my level for its masters level

Would most DMs allow that for a wish?

Compare and contrast with this feat — Dragon Magazine, I know.


Betrayal of the Spirit Linked
Pre-Reqs: Have a Familiar, Able to cast Animate Dead as a Prepared spell

Sacrifice your Familiar and turn it into a Skeleton or a Zombie. Lose the bonus it provided (such as +3 to Climb for a Lizard) and it will never learn to speak to you or other creatures of its type, gain DR 5 / slashing if your Familiar is now a Skeleton, or DR 5 / bludgeoning if your Familiar is now a Zombie.

So can a wish gain you a feat ?

Actually I think Obtain Familiar is closer to your request, but this feat is quite fun. My point is the same though, either way.

[Xarteros]

Unfortunately if i used an undead familiar to haunt my heart, my heart still wouldn't count as a creature and therefor couldn't use grafts, and the haunting presence could be exorcised


Why use a wish? Why not have it be some sort of weird fleshcrafting skill, with GP cost balanced to the heart's strength?

That's what i mean for making the actual body. I'm happy to pay huge sums of money, XP and raw material to make this work. All i really need is a way to telepathically control it that cannot be undone/countered. If there's no way to increase an undead's HD the same way you can with a construct (by adding more material) i'd have to wish for that too.

Frankly, i'd be happy using multiple wishes if it made it more fair. Or, wish only for what i need, and use any alternative methods possible to get the rest done. I'd avoid wish altogether if there was a way that i knew that would work

[Phelix-Mu]

Unfortunately if i used an undead familiar to haunt my heart, my heart still wouldn't count as a creature and therefor couldn't use grafts, and the haunting presence could be exorcised



That's what i mean for making the actual body. I'm happy to pay huge sums of money, XP and raw material to make this work. All i really need is a way to telepathically control it that cannot be undone/countered. If there's no way to increase an undead's HD the same way you can with a construct (by adding more material) i'd have to wish for that too.

Frankly, i'd be happy using multiple wishes if it made it more fair. Or, wish only for what i need, and use any alternative methods possible to get the rest done. I'd avoid wish altogether if there was a way that i knew that would work

Can you polymorph any object on some type of simulacra formed from your heart?

Once again, wish-free suggestion. Really, most anything can be accomplished by applications of multiple other spells, and ends up being at least as well-defined as one of the extra-wish wishes. Possibly cheaper, too.

[killem2]

Wish: "I wish to have an undead familiar, similar to a wizard of my experience"
Effect: gain obtain familiar, and be treated as wizard of my level for its masters level

Would most DMs allow that for a wish?

What I would do is, take the level the familar is appropriate for the wizard (like if the improved familar needed the cast to be level 4) then I would just have them apply the undead template.

That' so straight forward, and really not THAT big of a deal I would not play crazy DM with it.

[nedz]

Well there is this extant option
Vampire Bat DR341 p88 — available from level 1 — not really undead, I know.

[Elderand]

Wish: "I wish to have an undead familiar, similar to a wizard of my experience"
Effect: gain obtain familiar, and be treated as wizard of my level for its masters level

Would most DMs allow that for a wish?

I would but you'd gain not much because I wouldn't agree with the effect.
It could be constructed as this : a wizard of your experience, if you are not a wizard mean a level 0 wizard.

That wish is contingent upon some sort of meta knowledge of the experience system.

Now if you had said you wanted an undead familiar similar to what you would have gotten if you had spent all the time you spent as a (insert class here) as a wizard instead.

And even then you'd have to be careful of starting ages

[Psyren]

So can a wish gain you a feat ?

That's honestly a good question. I think in general that might be a fair use of it, particularly if you meet the prerequisites.

[NichG]

I'd say thats a fair use for a Wish in a campaign where they're either fundamentally limited resources or in which there's no way to dodge the XP cost. In campaigns where that can be short-circuited to arbitrary degree (e.g. Wish-economy worlds), its important for the permanent things you can get from Wishes to cap. So what I might do in such campaigns is allow a Wish to grant a feat but that 'takes up' one 'plus' of the +5 you could have gotten from Wishes to your stats. The second feat requires two Wishes in a row and takes up the second 'plus', and so on.

[nedz]

Well, by RAW, you can use a wish to emulate Heroics, or possibly even Extended Heroics, which can give you a fighter feat for a while.

There are probably a whole host of further spells you could also emulate for all manner of other feats.

Making it permanent though ? — that's definitely Rule 0.

[Spuddles]

What would gluing your heart to an undead creature possibly accomplish?

Because it's ****ing metal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzejqYRtmdY).

[Toliudar]

To my knowledge, the control that the creator has over a construct is not mental. In fact, the entry on golems specifies that the golem needs to be able to hear and see you. The control that clerics etc have over undead is mental, but also subject to a dozen different ways to mess with it. These seem to be reasonable mitigating factors for the potential power of having an entirely separate set of actions accessible by you.

If what you're really after is a cool tower, then the Landlord or Craft Construct feats are likely to do what you need. You kill a dragon, you use the Craft Construct feat to add a gout of fire attack to your front door. You kill a bullette, you pay a craftsman to make its hide into your bedroom curtains. Then you refluff this to be nailing the creature's bits onto the frame that has your cold unbeating heart at its core.

How many times are you actually going to be attacked in your home? Unless you're playing in an extremely nonstandard campaign or else are picturing this undead monstrosity shambling along behind you, it won't come up in play enough to dedicate these resources to the effect.

[Xarteros]

If what you're really after is a cool tower, then the Landlord or Craft Construct feats are likely to do what you need. You kill a dragon, you use the Craft Construct feat to add a gout of fire attack to your front door. You kill a bullette, you pay a craftsman to make its hide into your bedroom curtains. Then you refluff this to be nailing the creature's bits onto the frame that has your cold unbeating heart at its core.

How many times are you actually going to be attacked in your home? Unless you're playing in an extremely nonstandard campaign or else are picturing this undead monstrosity shambling along behind you, it won't come up in play enough to dedicate these resources to the effect.

Well, to the first, if i make it a construct, can i graft things onto it indefinitely? can i just add graft after graft after graft, and add HD with raw materials? if so, why can't i do the same with undead?

As to the tower being attacked a lot, ultimate goal is to make it fly (or move around on a permanent standing wave) and it will be a mobile battle-fortress.

Just remember that this is a monstrosity created from the dead bodies of my victims. Every paladin order within reasonable distance is going to try and hunt me down and destroy my tower and me along with it