[3.5] Leaving the dungeon without clearing

[AntiTrust]

So my party was tracking down the leader of a drow/doppleganger organization/cult. They cleared through the dopplegangers and now the drow and all that's left is the Illithids inner sanctum. They then felt they should go back to down to rest and we ended the session there. They are going to be back in 48hrs to finish it off.

My question is, what/if any new defenses could the Illithid have put up during that time to soften them up before he engages with them? The Illithid will not leave (per the module, so planeshift is out)

Relevant information:

1. Illithid is a 7th lv sorc
2. The lair is in the sewer system of a large metropolis (so easy access to plenty of stuff)

[LibraryOgre]

Without knowing his sorcery abilities...

He should have restocked his guards with Charm Monster.... thieves, town guards, sewer workers. He might cause chaos above using suggestion (getting people to start fires is always a good one). They won't be as tough as the drow and such, but nothing says "moral quandary" like a meatshield made out of charmed civilians.

[HunterOfJello]

Depending on to what degree this particular mind flayer is invested in this sanctum, he would likely put plans in place to kill the group before they even return to his lair. If they do manage to return there and break in, he shouldn't be there for them to find. He should really be gone from using a scroll to teleport out along with some of his best treasure.

[ArcturusV]

The important thing about this... the Mind Flayer should know the party's normal tactics by now, and has time to consider counters for it. Think how the party eliminated the underlings they have already cleared out. What tactics, items, spells, etc, have they used?

Mind Flayers aren't dumbasses. So if he knows what tactics they favor (And should), he's going to devise counters for them. So just think what the players used the most often. And what the Mind Flayer could set up that negates as many of those tactics/powers/spells as possible.

[AntiTrust]

The important thing about this... the Mind Flayer should know the party's normal tactics by now, and has time to consider counters for it. Think how the party eliminated the underlings they have already cleared out. What tactics, items, spells, etc, have they used?

Mind Flayers aren't dumbasses. So if he knows what tactics they favor (And should), he's going to devise counters for them. So just think what the players used the most often. And what the Mind Flayer could set up that negates as many of those tactics/powers/spells as possible.

The weird thing is, they really just power through most of it. The paladin and TWF ranger both have AC's around 25 and with the average drow and doppleganger the module provided having a +10 to hit they've got to roll a 15 to hit either of them. The groups (cleric, paladin, twf ranger, sorc, and wizard) "plan" if you can call it that is to expend most of their spells on the first big encounter they face, then heal, rest and return the next day fully charged like sieging a castle.

[ArcturusV]

Then I presume the logical thing would be to have things that trigger off Touch AC or saves, Reflex and Will. Will the Mind Flayer should have in spades. Clever use of traps (If he has some means to make them) can provide effects that will mess up the Paladin and Ranger. If he can't actually make traps... it should be possible for him to Mindjack some pawns from nearby. Use them as a crude construction crew, push them to keep working unto death to fortify his place. Use lots of cover to minimize spellcasters trying to go Nova. Traps which make life difficult for the Paladin and Ranger (Especially since you seem to have no trapfinding in the party outside of Detect Traps as a Cleric spell).

[PetterTomBos]

The weird thing is, they really just power through most of it. The paladin and TWF ranger both have AC's around 25 and with the average drow and doppleganger the module provided having a +10 to hit they've got to roll a 15 to hit either of them. The groups (cleric, paladin, twf ranger, sorc, and wizard) "plan" if you can call it that is to expend most of their spells on the first big encounter they face, then heal, rest and return the next day fully charged like sieging a castle.

If I was an illithad having wanting to fight these guys in my lair, here's my plan:

Let them run into some underlings in a corridor with one exit. Somehow sneak around them (skills/knowing when they will enter and hang around a the exit/dimension door/whatever I have available) then get them as they retreat.

Apart from that: how much money does he have? Does he want the PC's dead for some reason? Does he love his lair under the city very much ? (Enough to risk death for it?). Considered assasins ? (even mindraped ordinary villagers may do, especially if it is their bartender and he has him some black lotus...).

Do you know where they will enter? Get some miners somehow, and have them make a cave-in behind the adventurers. Or over the adventurers? Come to think of it, if the lair is expendable, just have them enter and kill your disposeables, then collapse the last entrance.

Frame them! Have them kill some suggested villagers right there in the city, and let the city guard know...

[AntiTrust]

Apart from that: how much money does he have? Does he want the PC's dead for some reason? Does he love his lair under the city very much ? (Enough to risk death for it?). Considered assasins ? (even mindraped ordinary villagers may do, especially if it is their bartender and he has him some black lotus...).

Do you know where they will enter? Get some miners somehow, and have them make a cave-in behind the adventurers. Or over the adventurers? Come to think of it, if the lair is expendable, just have them enter and kill your disposeables, then collapse the last entrance.

Frame them! Have them kill some suggested villagers right there in the city, and let the city guard know...

He was controlling a gang of dopplegangers who replaced tax collectors for the city so he should have plenty of cash. Most of the dopplegangers have been killed when the group invaded their lair which was separate from his. He's been tasked with killing the party by another BBEG will face later, I'm not sure of the agreement he has with that BBEG. The module says he has a tank of immature mindflayer tadpoles that he'll risk death to protect, it specifically mentions that he will not use plane shift to escape even if the battle starts to turn against him.

It sounds like so far I should just start making meat shields for him

[AntiTrust]

Then I presume the logical thing would be to have things that trigger off Touch AC or saves, Reflex and Will. Will the Mind Flayer should have in spades. Clever use of traps (If he has some means to make them) can provide effects that will mess up the Paladin and Ranger. If he can't actually make traps... it should be possible for him to Mindjack some pawns from nearby. Use them as a crude construction crew, push them to keep working unto death to fortify his place. Use lots of cover to minimize spellcasters trying to go Nova. Traps which make life difficult for the Paladin and Ranger (Especially since you seem to have no trapfinding in the party outside of Detect Traps as a Cleric spell).

What happens is the group stands 50ft back and the paladin just springs anything that could be a trap, relying on her high saves and good HP to save her. After that the cleric heals her with some vigor wands and they continue on. Sort of sucks because a lot of cool AoE traps only effected the paladin who usually saved

[PetterTomBos]

What happens is the group stands 50ft back and the paladin just springs anything that could be a trap, relying on her high saves and good HP to save her. After that the cleric heals her with some vigor wands and they continue on. Sort of sucks because a lot of cool AoE traps only effected the paladin who usually saved

And they have given him time to see that they use this tactic? 0.0 Remember the "heavy slab of stone falling down"-trap in OOTS lately?... One single paladin, alone, can be handled, can't he?

[Aharon]

Does the Mind Flayer have any allies or superiors that could lend him support? With most of his minions dead, his situation seems rather desperate, so if he doesn't want to leave no matter what, he would probably ask for support even if it leaves him in debt.

[ArcturusV]

Don't use straight damage traps. I know that's the most common variety. But it's also the least interesting. Plus, use some cunning with it.

Say, a pressure plate trap. But instead of going off on the first guy who steps on it, the paladin. It goes off on the third guy who steps on it. The first trap should be a freebee to make AoE DOOM HP damage based, because until they hit the first trap they won't know there are traps there and will be more closely clustered together (Least based on my experience).

You always have poisons, while the Paladin will have a good Fort Save (Maybe. If your Big Bad Villain is a level 7 with no support I imagine the party isn't that high level), it only takes one failure to really kinda mess up his day. Or sap resources from a player. I'm constantly surprised how often a Cleric forgets to take Neutralize Poison as a spell for the day myself. You can also have unusual effect traps. For example, a trap inside his Lair which, when it goes off, creates a Pepperbomb effect (Cloud, obscures sight, people in the cloud need to make a Fort Save or be disabled by it. Prevents complex tasks requiring concentration like Spellcasting).

If your party IS relying on wands for stuff (As it sounds like), don't forget if your Sorcerer Mind Flayer has AoE Doom stuff that, well... items get destroyed in fireballs and acid bolts just like any other (And most of that party has a poor reflex save).

There's lots of ways around it. Particularly if you're sadistic. Traps don't take that long to set up either. Last I recall one crafter could build something like 18 traps a day. So it's not like you need a huge manpower investment in this.

Just get creative and try to avoid simple Exploding Runes/Firetrap spells, or Poison Needle/Dart traps. Falling rocks, logs, alarms, disables... there's so many options that it makes my Sadistic DM get quite happy when I can start busting them out.

[PetterTomBos]

He was controlling a gang of dopplegangers who replaced tax collectors for the city so he should have plenty of cash. Most of the dopplegangers have been killed when the group invaded their lair which was separate from his. He's been tasked with killing the party by another BBEG will face later, I'm not sure of the agreement he has with that BBEG. The module says he has a tank of immature mindflayer tadpoles that he'll risk death to protect, it specifically mentions that he will not use plane shift to escape even if the battle starts to turn against him.

It sounds like so far I should just start making meat shields for him

Mhm, make him some meatshields!

Could he bribe people? Like the local thugs? => Encounter!
Could he find out where the PCs stay? => Innkeep with ingested poison (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Poisons#Contact).
Suggest some ordinary people => Encounter!
The PCs kill the above => Talk to city militia (Alter self is good. Anonymity is better) and get the players arrested! Bonus points for controlling corrupt officials, or making the victims the family of officers.
Hedge his bets, send non-needed loot and/or information of the team to someone else => players need to prioritize.

Spend his cash. Don't let him have a single GP left, be creative with the magic item - section of the DMG.

[Ithandor]

Another effective strategy against groups that "go nova" is to make the first "big" encounter actually a small encounter, predominantly consisting of illusions. If they're trigger happy, they can waste huge resources before even realising that what they're fighting isn't there.

[nedz]

The MF should counter attack to regain the initiative.
Find out where the party are resting up and attack them in their sleep.

Alternatively — if he is dead set on upon being passive — he should create some illusions/disposable minions for them to waste their spells nova'ing on; ... and then counter attack when their buffs have gone down.

[mjlush]

So my party was tracking down the leader of a drow/doppleganger organization/cult. They cleared through the dopplegangers and now the drow and all that's left is the Illithids inner sanctum. They then felt they should go back to down to rest and we ended the session there. They are going to be back in 48hrs to finish it off.

My question is, what/if any new defenses could the Illithid have put up during that time to soften them up before he engages with them? The Illithid will not leave (per the module, so planeshift is out)

Relevant information:

1. Illithid is a 7th lv sorc
2. The lair is in the sewer system of a large metropolis (so easy access to plenty of stuff)

When you say the Illithid won't leave, do you mean won't leave his lair or won't leave the city if its the latter one move would be to rig his lair to blow and watch from a safe distance.

[silverwolfer]

Without knowing his sorcery abilities...

He should have restocked his guards with Charm Monster.... thieves, town guards, sewer workers. He might cause chaos above using suggestion (getting people to start fires is always a good one). They won't be as tough as the drow and such, but nothing says "moral quandary" like a meatshield made out of charmed civilians.


What quandry? They let themselves be used by the darkness and became willing tools. All good citizens should save up for mind blank items, to protect themselves and the realm from such evil deeds. While we sympathize, the realm is more then any single citizen, we shall take care of any widows or orphans that are left over due to this, but no mercy shall be spared while we cleanse the world of evil.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

A few ideas:

Find some way to keep them from leaving. Whether it's using illusions to make tunnles all look the same and make them easier to get lost in or some way of physically blocking the way they came it, don't let them leave and recharge to face every fight at full power. If they do leave, have minions follow them so you can attack while they're weak (maybe set fire to the inn in the middle of the night and attack people as they rush out the front door, not having had time to put on armor and escape.)

Trick them into misidentifying the biggest threat. If they're dropping their big spells on the first thing they perceive as a threat, make their perception wrong. Use illusions or summoned monsters to make them think a big powerful monster is ahead of them while some rogues sneak up behind. Use invisibilty to hide the real threats until they have a good opening to strike. Use NPCs with class levels instead of monsters since it's much harder to tell just by looking whether a human is a threat than it is to tell whether a manticore is a threat. (Or use weak monsters with lots of class levels for a similar effect; a minotaur may only be CL 4, but a minotaur with a bunch of levels in barbarian can be way more threatening without looking any different.)

If the PCs are having too easy a time recovering from HP damage, target their ability scores. Poison is easy, especially if they don't play smart. You could have a room set up with hungry looking "guards" gathered and almost done preparing a meal. When the PCs kick down the door and burst in, the guards panic and run out the far door as fast as they can or surrender without a fight. The real danger in the room is poisoned food. Make sure the food seems appropriate to the enemies. If a bunch of thugs have an extravagent feast, the players will realize something's up; a smallish piece of roasted meat ("It doesn't look like nearly enough to go around.") and boiled potatoes or carrots with cheap (but strong) ale should do the trick and raise fewer eyebrows. Also, don't go on too much about how good it all looks and smells as that makes the trap too obvious. Tell the players they smell roasting meat from behind a door and let them decide that that's a good thing to smell after a long day of adventuring.

[Sudain]

What quandry? They let themselves be used by the darkness and became willing tools. All good citizens should save up for mind blank items, to protect themselves and the realm from such evil deeds. While we sympathize, the realm is more then any single citizen, we shall take care of any widows or orphans that are left over due to this, but no mercy shall be spared while we cleanse the world of evil.

Love the quote, but uh... that kinda sounds evil in itself. Blame shifting to the victim after all.

Alternatively other than illusions use alter self or disguise skills to make villagers appear like orcs. And the mindflayer himself need not have that skill himself, he just has to charm someone to do it for him.

[SlaadLord]

He's reasonably stealthy, so have him do hit-and-run on the PCs with his spells and mind blast. If they haven't made it to the museum yet, have him suggest they grab the statue or help themselves to one or more of the cursed items. He's a bleeding genius and his home is a minefield of death. Really, I can't think of a single reason he should stay in his sanctum waiting for them-have him cast alarm on the front entrance to his lair and play it from there. This guy's a regular nightmare against the party he's expected to face if he doesn't play it smart. If he does...

Oh. Right. Necklace of fireballs. Have him leave most of the necklace somewhere and keep one bead back. When the PCs approach the necklace, he throws that last bead and that fireball sets the others off too. Extra points if he does it during the final fight.

[silverwolfer]

Love the quote, but uh... that kinda sounds evil in itself. Blame shifting to the victim after all.

.

I would say more LN , because they are willing to take care of the aftermath of having to kill the poor sucker.

[Randomguy]

If he's got the same spells known as the mind flayer sorcerer in the monster manual then he's in trouble.

He could always plane shift away, probably to one of the elemental planes since elementals have low Will saves, then use charm and suggestion to get as many elementals as he can to help him out, then plane shift back with them.

Alternatively, use 2 plane shifts to get to a forest somewhere, charm a bunch of animals and then use another 2 plane shifts to get back with his new pets.


If he can make a temporary aliance with some Aboleths (it's a sewer, after all) then he could have the place blanketed with illusory walls, programmed images and mirage arcana.

A few scrolls of Stone Shape could also completely rework the place, so they can't follow the same path as before.

[Deathra13]

In regards to the quandary, Id certainly say killing them is evil. Nonlethal damage and rope exist for exactly this kind of dillemma.

In regards to the op. I agree with most of what has been said, especially if the shopping spree on magic items to defend himself and the tadpoles. Calling for assistance might work but unless the other bbeg can transport its likely to take to long to arrive. Setting up traps to split the party, or if he has even one doppleganger left replacing a party member with one is a good trap to go with. Nothing quite like a team mate suddenly turning on the party as the bbeg shows up. Of course this requires some player cooperation. The illusionary waste of a nova mixed with trapping them inside is a solid bet assuming they never take the time to check. Personally if I were in the mind flayers shoes and protecting my young Id go with a lot of these plans, and if all else fails, appeal to the paladins sense of honor at the end. The tadpoles are helpless and it is debatable if they are evil, even if they are, they are no threat to anyone at this point, and I dont think ends justify the means applies to paladins. Granted its a last resort you've already lost thing, but its always good to have a plan for that as well.

[Mnemnosyne]

I'm going to attack the 'he stays because the module says he does' presumption. That's ridiculous. We've got a mind flayer, a highly intelligent creature with loads of abilities that has had its lair invaded and most of its minions wiped out by a powerful threat. As far as I can discern, he's mostly alone at this time. There's not much he can actually do to defeat this threat within the short time the party will be gone to rest. So...what reason does he have to stay? A proscription that he stays because the module says so is meaningless to him. He needs a really, really good reason to stay in a thoroughly discovered lair with his defenses down and minions defeated, because if he doesn't have such a good reason, then he leaves.

If he has plans that are critical to the city, that's fine - he doesn't leave the city. But unless his plans have something so vital tied to that specific location within the city, he has absolutely no reason to stay there. He moves off, disappears into the sewers. He's got at least 8 hours to find a new hiding place, a new place to carry out his plans from. He's suffered a major setback, but he's going to pick himself up and carry on, and now he knows his enemies, he knows some of their strengths and weaknesses, and he knows who they are.

The PC's should absolutely not get a chance to come back and find him unprepared, or even with some makeshift hastily reconstructed defenses, because that's simply not in his best interest. The mind flayer should leave, and start attacking the PC's indirectly. Charm people and use them to undermine the PC's activities, their credibility, their upstanding nature. They start getting accused of crimes, their reputations suffer, they get investigated and bothered by the local constabulary for various things. And throughout it all, the mind flayer stays on the move, continuing to hide and rebuild his power base, with new minions and new enemies specifically designed to strike at the PCs weaknesses. He now has spies watching them wherever they go, very soon he will have a list of all their commonly used spells, their typical tactics, their abilities. They start to get attacked by assassins, and worse, whenever it's in a public place, the fight is set up so that they look like the bad guys, to continue to harm their reputations.

Leaving someone like this alive should always result in a powerful, intelligent villain using every means at his disposal to ruin the PCs from every possible angle. It should never result in a half-cleared dungeon that they can come back to and finish off later, unless there's a really, really strong reason for that, and honestly, I can think of absolutely nothing off-hand that would be good enough reason for him to stay in this lair.

[lsfreak]

It sounds like the reason he doesn't leave is the mindflayer tadpoles. But the module likely presumes a few rounds-worth of preparation, not the hours and hours the PC's have given him. He will leave, with the tadpoles, because he has the time. Likely leave traps, illusion, controlled minions, and possibly himself there too - since he's moved the tadpoles, he can afford to show up, try and kill the PC's, and planeshift away if things turn sour, because the tadpoles are safely hidden elsewhere.

[Mnemnosyne]

Ah, yes, I missed that. And I agree - the module's proscription is that he'll fight to the death if the PC's are there. If he has at least 8 hours, he'll get the tank moved through any means necessary, such as charming several minions to do the work of carrying it away with him.

His mission is to protect the tadpoles, and he would be foolish to keep them somewhere that the enemy already knows the location of. Indeed, since the module specifies his focus is to protect them, anything other than moving them would be counter to the behavior outlined for him. That it says he won't leave is simply because it didn't consider the possibility that the players would leave him alive with many hours to move what he's protecting to a new hiding place; it assumed he would have minutes, not hours, to deal with the problem.

[TuggyNE]

What quandry? They let themselves be used by the darkness and became willing tools. All good citizens should save up for mind blank items, to protect themselves and the realm from such evil deeds. While we sympathize, the realm is more then any single citizen, we shall take care of any widows or orphans that are left over due to this, but no mercy shall be spared while we cleanse the world of evil.

That's a pretty good LN/LE motto, and the bolded part is what really sells it. 43200gp (for a cheapo custom magic item) or 120000gp (for the cheapest official item) is out of reach of all but the richest lords.

[kabreras]

He can charm and have the hands to moove the tadpoles to an other place in the city easy in 8 hours.

He should have damn diseapeared from his lair in 8 hours MF are damn inteligents.
Even if he cant moove all the tadpoles dying for them would be stupid.

And even of lets say he cant moove and wont leave the tadpoles...

The PC dont know exactelly where he is and what the room look like...
A few wall of stones around and a corner of the room is prety safe or a whole room is cut of the sewers. If you cant hide underground with a few wall of stone cast you are not trying enough.

[ArcturusV]

Remember, it's not 8 hours they are wasting (The party) it's FORTY-EIGHT.

It's a staggering amount of time. A mind flayer should be able to prepare so hard to defend his sanctum in that time that it would be HARDER than the first time they went in. And that is personally a much more interesting option as I see it than just running away.

[lsfreak]

Remember, it's not 8 hours they are wasting (The party) it's FORTY-EIGHT.

Presumably, though, the mind flayer isn't sure how long they'll be gone - as soon as he knows they're gone, he'll probably make arrangements to move the tadpoles asap, and focus his resources there. If he still has spies in the city, he might be able to get from the innkeeper, for example, they play on not returning for another two days, but that won't be his focus until after the tadpoles are safe. Though that should still be a lot of time for him to prepare, especially if it's a big city they're in and, thus, the mindflayer has a lot of resources for screwing with the PC's either before they leave for the dungeon or upon their return.

[Mnemnosyne]

Yeah, if they destroyed most of his network of resources already, he has no way to know how long they'll be gone. As soon as they leave, his number one priority is getting the tadpoles to safety, to a new hidden location where no one knows they're there. He wants them to survive long enough so that he can start kidnapping people and implanting them for ceremorphosis, probably, and the best way to do that is to stay hidden.

Then he can prepare his new sanctum with even better defenses, specifically targeting their weaknesses. That way, when they do eventually track him down, he's even better defended than before. And once his new lair is defended and secured, then he starts building up a new network of agents and making life hard on them. By the time they find him, he could have several new mind flayers created.

[nedz]

Of course, if they were to get distracted by a side quest or something, then he might have time to implement a full blown Illithinapocalypse.

Which should be the next thing he does after moving to his — already pre-scouted — back up lair.

My earlier idea of the immediate counter attack is only good if he can be fairly sure of killing them all.