Welcome to; EVIL or NOT EVIL!

[SowZ]

The point of the game is you present a character, preferably one you played, and the posters put in their vote if they think the character is Evil or not. If the posters are split about 50/50, nice work! Twenty points.

I'll start off with two examples.

RULE OF THUMB: Feel free to debate a character's alignment. But alignment debates have a tendency to get hostile. If it feels too intense, just move on to the next character, please. This isn't about general alignment debates as much as analyzing individual characters.

Number One:
Quorren the Human Barbarian. From a people called the Kjelfijnarians. Their society is honor bound and prone to Viking style raids on more "advanced" civilizations. The party found him imprisoned in one of the human capitol cities. It had recently been raided by the largest group of Kjelfs ever seen. A warlord had united dozens of clans with the promise of the most glorious battle ever. Quorren's clan was convinced, too.

But it turned out to be a stealth raid at night and spies in the city delayed the cities militia, so it was basically just slaughtering civilians for the first half of the long battle. A third of the city was destroyed before the invaders were repelled. In the blood rage, Quorren spilled his share of civilian blood. But when the rage wore off and he realized there were no warriors, he tried to get himself killed. He was captured instead, and was prepared to face execution as penance. (In his culture, killing people can be okay but killing people who have no one to defend them is cowardly and cruel.)

He was guilt racked by the people he murdered. The party freed him in exchange for Quorren (a master seamen,) guiding them to the warlords island. Quorren accepted, to regain his honor with revenge.

Once on the island, (took a while,) they didn't know where the warlord was staying. so Quorren snuck into the nearby village and kidnapped a sixteen year old. He interrogated the kid with some persistence, (one injury was caused.) But he got the information.

The party came across Quorren and freaked out. Quorren was filled with regret at torturing a young person to fulfill his revenge. He immediately released the kid who Quorren could tell was going to kill himself for betraying his people. Quorren tries his best to convince the kid that he did the right thing and only betrayed a traitor. To no avail. The party is still freaking out on Quorren, and they go ballistic when Quorren hands the kid a sword and they start dueling.

(In Quorren's mind, the kid gains back some honor by dying fighting his captor.) The kid gets the first swing, misses, and Quorren knocks the kid out with the first blow. Quorren is now waiting to see if the kid is going to wake up to commence the dual. (You don't kill someone on the ground during an honor dual.)

The rogue figures we don't have time to wait for a few hours. (The rogue is also the only one in the party who made friends with Quorren, everyone else disliking or hating him for his race.) So the rogue coup-de-graces the kid. Quorren goes into a rage and pounces at the Rogue. Long story short, the battle ended with the party tank, (a half-minotaur type dude,) almost dead and Quorren plane shifted into a realm that will painfully kill him.

So, Evil or not Evil?

Number Two:
Thassian the Epic Level Unbodied Thrallherd, (basically a pure astral projection in the physical realm.) Thassian is very logical, (robotic, really,) and pacifist. Vow of Nonviolence, even. He has long ago decided that death is unacceptable and has set about to end it.

He has hundreds of Thralls he keeps on a flying ship, (eberron,) that makes him tons of money and carts him around getting the artifacts needed to complete his quest. He has even allied with a god who believed in Thassian's quest that I believe was a god of the undead, (Thassian didn't care who the god was if it suited his goals.)

Thassian is willing to go to great lengths to keep foes alive. He will dominate them with no problem, but would risk his own life greatly to save the life of any sentient creature. He would also put his own safety below his parties if he needed to keep them alive.

Thassian doesn't intend to keep people dominated indefinitely. Eventually, he will give them their freedom. But in the meantime it is for their own good. His goal?

Bottle up the astral essence of every sentient creature, (which means removing their soul,) and converting the person into a type of immortal astral being very similar to an Unbodied. He did try out being a mortal, getting a body and trying out all the pleasures of the flesh and he decided that it was not worth death existing. He does not care about the will of his targets, he knows what is for their own good.

He also wants to free everyone from hell.

Evil or not Evil?

[The Glyphstone]

Are there any houserules we need to be aware of? For the 2nd example you gave, it's no question otherwise - you literally cannot be evil and have an Exalted Vow, so the Vow of Nonviolence mentioned in the first few sentences makes reading the rest redundant.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Sesma the Kobold Sorcerer
Sesma was raised in a secretive nation of Kobolds far away from most human civilizations. This civilization was run by "True-Blood" Kobolds, whose superiority over lesser Kobolds was assumed; even lesser Kobolds, however, were superior to mammals.

Sesma was one of the less (common) Kobolds, but gained some position nonetheless, on the basis of his intelligence, charisma and magical power. A shrewd and ruthless politician, Sesma quickly rose about as far as a low-born Kobold could, becoming an advisor to one of the true-blood families. However, his life was still worth very little, and when changing political tides went against the family he served, he left for a life of exile rather than die for machinations performed in service to said family.

Sesma is highly loyal to his own race, but believes that they require sharp discipline in order to achieve their potential - particularly those Kobolds born outside the Kobold nation. While Sesma's upbringing made him believe in the inferiority of common Kobolds to their true-blood cousins, time away from home has begun to open his perspective, and he now entertains the possibility of someday leading a revolution, and putting his own diminutive race in charge of their distant kingdom.

Towards mammals, Sesma remains an unrepentant racist, referring to all the mammalian races as "Skinbags," and making no effort to hide his contempt, even in the face of authority. Mockery and derision form Sesma's common response to attempted interaction by Skinbags. If called on his insulting nature, Sesma adopts a mockingly deferential tone, insisting that no insult was intended, and it is only the Skinbag's ludicrously-shaped ears that would make them think otherwise.

While fiercely loyal to his own race, Sesma's moral outlook is much different from those of skinba - mammals. The incredible birth rate of Kobolds ensures that the value of an individual Kobold's life remains low; Sesma does not hesitate to kill even large groups of Kobolds, if their actions threaten the well-being of the race as a whole. Furthermore, Sesma believes that his race is not well-suited to self-governance or democracy; less intelligent Kobolds must be shaped and directed by their superiors, and pain, fear and intimidation are clearly the superior mechanisms for establishing dominance.

Ultimately, Sesma hopes to unify the myriad Kobold tribes and gangs (many of whom live as vermin in skinbag cities) under a single nation. As part of this scheme, Sesma hopes to steal or replicate the Spellpool of the Arcane Order, in order to give its benefits to the numerous sorcerers of his race.

[SowZ]

Are there any houserules we need to be aware of? For the 2nd example you gave, it's no question otherwise - you literally cannot be evil and have an Exalted Vow, so the Vow of Nonviolence mentioned in the first few sentences makes reading the rest redundant.

This is your interpretation of the characters status as evil or non-evil. For the purpose of this thread, let's assume there is no way to mechanically prove someone as evil or not evil. It is purely the posters own judgement based on the character's actions.

[ArcturusV]

Sesma strikes me as not particularly evil or good. Maybe leaning a little towards Evil. The doubt comes from the fact that it seems Sesma's ambitions aren't personal so much (As is typically the evil motive) but based on the needs of the community.

Though an interesting note was I remember filling out some WotC run "Alignment Survey" thing for a character quite similar to Sesma and it spit out "Chaotic Evil" for my alignment. I did not agree with it.

So in DnD 1-3.5 terms it'd be "Lawful Neutral... leaning towards Evil". In 4th edition terms it would be "Unaligned". In Palladium Terms it would probably be that "Evil with Honor" alignment I can't remember the name of off the top of my head...

[SowZ]

I'd have to see how far Sesma is willing to go and what actions are deemed worthy of execution for threatening the kobold species as a whole before I could pass judgement.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

The point of the game is you present a character, preferably one you played, and the posters put in their vote if they think the character is Evil or not. If the posters are split about 50/50, nice work! Twenty points.

I'll start off with two examples.

RULE OF THUMB: Feel free to debate a character's alignment. But alignment debates have a tendency to get hostile. If it feels too intense, just move on to the next character, please. This isn't about general alignment debates as much as analyzing individual characters.

Number One:
Quorren the Human Barbarian. From a people called the Kjelfijnarians. Their society is honor bound and prone to Viking style raids on more "advanced" civilizations. The party found him imprisoned in one of the human capitol cities. It had recently been raided by the largest group of Kjelfs ever seen. A warlord had united dozens of clans with the promise of the most glorious battle ever. Quorren's clan was convinced, too.

But it turned out to be a stealth raid at night and spies in the city delayed the cities militia, so it was basically just slaughtering civilians for the first half of the long battle. A third of the city was destroyed before the invaders were repelled. In the blood rage, Quorren spilled his share of civilian blood. But when the rage wore off and he realized there were no warriors, he tried to get himself killed. He was captured instead, and was prepared to face execution as penance. (In his culture, killing people can be okay but killing people who have no one to defend them is cowardly and cruel.)

He was guilt racked by the people he murdered. The party freed him in exchange for Quorren (a master seamen,) guiding them to the warlords island. Quorren accepted, to regain his honor with revenge.

Once on the island, (took a while,) they didn't know where the warlord was staying. so Quorren snuck into the nearby village and kidnapped a sixteen year old. He interrogated the kid with a some persistence, (one injury was caused.) But he got the information.

The party came across Quorren and freaked out. Quorren was filled with regret at torturing a young person to fulfill his revenge. He immediately released the kid who Quorren could tell was going to kill himself for betraying his people. Quorren tries his best to convince the kid that he did the right thing and only betrayed a traitor. To no avail. The party is still freaking out on Quorren, and they go ballistic when Quorren hands the kid a sword and they start dueling.

(In Quorren's mind, the kid gains back some honor by dying fighting his captor.) The kid gets the first swing, misses, and Quorren knocks the kid out with the first blow. Quorren is now waiting to see if the kid is going to wake up to commence the dual. (You don't kill someone on the ground during an honor dual.)

The rogue figures we don't have time to wait for a few hours. (The rogue is also the only one in the party who made friends with Quorren, everyone else disliking or hating him for his race.) So the rogue coup-de-graces the kid. Quorren goes into a rage and pounces at the Rogue. Long story short, the battle ended with the party tank almost dead and Quorren plan shifted into a realm that will painfully kill him.

So, Evil or not Evil?

Number Two:
Thassian the Epic Level Unbodied Thrallherd, (basically a pure astral projection in the physical realm.) Thassian is very logical, (robotic, really,) and pacifist. Vow of Nonviolence, even. He has long ago decided that death is unacceptable and has set about to end it.

He has hundreds of Thralls he keeps on a flying ship, (eberron,) that makes him tons of money and carts him around getting the artifacts needed to complete his quest. He has even allied with a god who believed in Thassian's quest that I believe was a god of the undead, (Thassian didn't care who the god was if it suited his goals.)

Thassian is willing to go to great lengths to keep foes alive. He will dominate them with no problem, but would risk his own life greatly to save the life of any sentient creature. He would also put his own safety below his parties if he needed to keep them alive.

Thassian doesn't intend to keep people dominated indefinitely. Eventually, he will give them their freedom. But in the meantime it is for their own good. His goal?

Bottle up the astral essence of every sentient creature, (which means removing their soul,) and converting the person into a type of immortal astral being very similar to an Unbodied. He did try out being a mortal, getting a body and trying out all the pleasures of the flesh and he decided that it was not worth death existing. He does not care about the will of his targets, he knows what is for their own good.

He also wants to free everyone from hell.

Evil or not Evil?


Quorren I would classify as very chaotic, mildly evil, but with a chance of redemption (Or at least he would have, before he died.) The deeds he committed were evil; the fact that he regretted them only matters if he changes his behavior afterwards, instead of repeating the same patterns. Quorren strikes me as being sort of like a drug addict - protestations of guilt don't matter, if the behavior remains unchanged.

Thassian is a bit more complicated. My notions of morality are a bit complicated (I supposed you'd say I was a pragmatic relativist). By my definitions, Thassian is outside the realm of moral judgement; his nature, motivations and worldview are so outside the norm, that morality ceases to be a measure that fits for him.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I'd have to see how far Sesma is willing to go and what actions are deemed worthy of execution for threatening the kobold species as a whole before I could pass judgement.

So, that came up with a band of Kobolds that were raiding a local human settlement very openly, with a leader living among the settlement in disguise. Sesma figured that this sort of open aggression wasn't going to do any good - it would only stir up resentment to the Kobold race, without ever achieving enough to make up for it. Sesma participated in the party's raid on the camp, and killed his fair share of Kobolds (Though he did incapacitate a number of them instead, got the party to accept their surrender, and briefly took one of the higher-ranking survivors under his proverbial wing.)

Sesma was also involved in the attack on the Kobold leader, who was using magic to disguise himself as a gnome in the local community. Sesma basically viewed this entire process as "Pruning" the race - getting rid of individuals and leaders whose continued existence was bad for the species as a whole.

[Fighter1000]

I believe Quorren, the barbarian, is a good man. He did some things he should not have done, but I think if he was allowed to live for a longer time, he could have brought goodness to the world.
Thassian is an extremist, but has very good intentions. Ending death, freeing everyone from hell? That sounds great! His methods are alright to me, despite taking out free will pretty much altogether.
Sesma, to me, is definitely an evil character. He acts like a total A-hole to anyone who is not a kobold. He doesn't strike me as someone who has any respect for life and has no real concept of mercy or compassion. He's lawful, that's for sure, but not good. Not someone I'd invite to a party.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Sesma, to me, is definitely an evil character. He acts like a total A-hole to anyone who is not a kobold. He doesn't strike me as someone who has any respect for life and has no real concept of mercy or compassion. He's lawful, that's for sure, but not good. Not someone I'd invite to a party.

So, I'm sort of half arguing devil's advocate here (I never actually decided on an alignment for Sesma), but...

So, yes, he's difficult towards humans - but significantly less difficult than the average "Good" human is towards Kobolds. His race lives in difficult circumstances - they're his priority.

"Respect for life" is something that might vary by race. Kobolds in this universe are very common, and usually live very short, painful lives. Violent death is more or less expected. Choices have to be made in such difficult circumstances - if the continued existence of some Kobolds threatens the well-being of all Kobolds, culling them could be described as not only "Not evil" but a moral necessity.

"Mercy and Compassion" - in this world, Kobolds are sort of naturally primitive creatures. Left to their own devices, they tend towards laziness, theft and self-interest. They can't function as a unit in the same way that humans do; Kobolds require strict, even brutal discipline in order to keep them in line, and if they're not kept in line, they collapse into a chaos even more brutal than the authoritarian rule that saves them from it.

Finally - look at Sesma's motivations. As ArcturusV said, he isn't out for his own interests; everything he does, he does for the betterment of his race. "Sesma is a tireless and devoted servant of his people" is an entirely true statement. You say he has no respect for life, no concept of compassion - but everything he does is guided by pragmatic concern for the life of his people, and for lessening the (very considerable) woes of their existence.

[ArcturusV]

By the way, the "Chaotic Evil" character I mentioned:

Jakar -

Jakar was the founder of Necromancy in his setting, the first Necromancer, and typically considered the most powerful. His world had been ruled by an Ancient Empire which had created and pacified most of the races. When Jakar was young, the Divine War broke out, where Gods first appeared in their Cosmology (Refugees from another Plane/Setting) and basically used their Demons, Angels, Devils, Devas, etc, and their one chosen "Mortal" race (Githyanki got called for this) to conduct war against the Empire as it was a significant threat at it's current state to the Divine. So he grew up in the midst of an actual world war that his side lost. The Divine Ones crushed the mortal Empire eventually and the rulers of the Old Empire disappeared.

In this power vacuum Jakar was Human, in a setting where Humans were NOT the dominant race. They didn't "Outbreed" anyone, much less races that actually are shorter lived and would outbreed humans. Humans mostly settled on the Veldt, the last truly fertile, hospitable bit of land for quite a wide swath as it avoided most of the ravages of the war. So most other races got it in their minds to kill the humans and take their land.

It went poorly for Jakar. He came into his own arcane powers at a time where man was being hunted to extinction. Several settlements remained, but they were armed camps, walled cities, and were eventually going to fall. Jakar himself lead a warband of human survivors, and wasn't content to just "Wait for the end". He decided to go out there and kick every other race square in the nuts until they stepped away from Humanity. And for a while had quite a bit of success.

Eventually him and his growing army settle down, content with the peace they had won (While the rest of the world struggled with starving to death and trying to rebuild society). Several of the groups he had kicked around earlier decided to band together, and came for Jakar's head on a pike and to finish off the Humans who were "Hogging all the good land". Overwhelming superiority to the Non-Human alliance.

Jakar, despairing, is inspired by a dream and a visitation from an Ancestor Spirit. He creates Necromancy of a sort. Uses his own people to fuel a necromantic ritual the likes the world has never seen (Or seen again yet), nearly decimating his own city in order to raise an army that could overwhelm the alliance against him. He goes to War, barely wins. It's a Pyrrhic victory where his army is shattered, but so is the enemy's. He can never mount a successful campaign again. Most of his human contemporaries vilify him for putting his own city to the sword. His generals who survived (And practiced the rites with Jakar) become the first cultists dedicated to Necromancy and the views of Jakar.

He's simultaneously considered the savior of Humanity as they did face a very real extinction at the time. And reviled for killing his own men in return for power (and the form of Necromancy he practiced/created also destroyed their souls, preventing any resurrection or rest in the afterlife). Non-Human sources of course considered him no better than a Demon. Most Good Aligned Deities hated him due to the danger his magic might have represented to their power. Most Evil Aligned Deities also hated him... but realized he could have been used as a sword against their Goody Two-Shoes enemies and tried to seduce Jakar to their side (... which is oddly why Tieflings exist in that setting, they are the children of Jakar Practioners and Devils who attempted to tempt them).

[SowZ]

By the way, the "Chaotic Evil" character I mentioned:

Jakar -

Jakar was the founder of Necromancy in his setting, the first Necromancer, and typically considered the most powerful. His world had been ruled by an Ancient Empire which had created and pacified most of the races. When Jakar was young, the Divine War broke out, where Gods first appeared in their Cosmology (Refugees from another Plane/Setting) and basically used their Demons, Angels, Devils, Devas, etc, and their one chosen "Mortal" race (Githyanki got called for this) to conduct war against the Empire as it was a significant threat at it's current state to the Divine. So he grew up in the midst of an actual world war that his side lost. The Divine Ones crushed the mortal Empire eventually and the rulers of the Old Empire disappeared.

In this power vacuum Jakar was Human, in a setting where Humans were NOT the dominant race. They didn't "Outbreed" anyone, much less races that actually are shorter lived and would outbreed humans. Humans mostly settled on the Veldt, the last truly fertile, hospitable bit of land for quite a wide swath as it avoided most of the ravages of the war. So most other races got it in their minds to kill the humans and take their land.

It went poorly for Jakar. He came into his own arcane powers at a time where man was being hunted to extinction. Several settlements remained, but they were armed camps, walled cities, and were eventually going to fall. Jakar himself lead a warband of human survivors, and wasn't content to just "Wait for the end". He decided to go out there and kick every other race square in the nuts until they stepped away from Humanity. And for a while had quite a bit of success.

Eventually him and his growing army settle down, content with the peace they had won (While the rest of the world struggled with starving to death and trying to rebuild society). Several of the groups he had kicked around earlier decided to band together, and came for Jakar's head on a pike and to finish off the Humans who were "Hogging all the good land". Overwhelming superiority to the Non-Human alliance.

Jakar, despairing, is inspired by a dream and a visitation from an Ancestor Spirit. He creates Necromancy of a sort. Uses his own people to fuel a necromantic ritual the likes the world has never seen (Or seen again yet), nearly decimating his own city in order to raise an army that could overwhelm the alliance against him. He goes to War, barely wins. It's a Pyrrhic victory where his army is shattered, but so is the enemy's. He can never mount a successful campaign again. Most of his human contemporaries vilify him for putting his own city to the sword. His generals who survived (And practiced the rites with Jakar) become the first cultists dedicated to Necromancy and the views of Jakar.

He's simultaneously considered the savior of Humanity as they did face a very real extinction at the time. And reviled for killing his own men in return for power (and the form of Necromancy he practiced/created also destroyed their souls, preventing any resurrection or rest in the afterlife). Non-Human sources of course considered him no better than a Demon. Most Good Aligned Deities hated him due to the danger his magic might have represented to their power. Most Evil Aligned Deities also hated him... but realized he could have been used as a sword against their Goody Two-Shoes enemies and tried to seduce Jakar to their side (... which is oddly why Tieflings exist in that setting, they are the children of Jakar Practioners and Devils who attempted to tempt them).

If the humans Jakar sacrificed volunteered knowing the risks, than I'd say he wasn't Evil. If he would have been willing to sacrifice his own soul would it mean fewer volunteers were needed, (hypothetically saying that is possible,) he would probably be Chaotic Good, even.

If they didn't volunteer but Jakar didn't know there was a good chance of destroying the souls of his people, he may not have been Evil but he still isn't Good. If he knowingly destroyed their souls without their consent, he is Evil, though probably not Chaotic Evil.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

By the way, the "Chaotic Evil" character I mentioned:

Jakar -

Jakar was the founder of Necromancy in his setting, the first Necromancer, and typically considered the most powerful. His world had been ruled by an Ancient Empire which had created and pacified most of the races. When Jakar was young, the Divine War broke out, where Gods first appeared in their Cosmology (Refugees from another Plane/Setting) and basically used their Demons, Angels, Devils, Devas, etc, and their one chosen "Mortal" race (Githyanki got called for this) to conduct war against the Empire as it was a significant threat at it's current state to the Divine. So he grew up in the midst of an actual world war that his side lost. The Divine Ones crushed the mortal Empire eventually and the rulers of the Old Empire disappeared.

In this power vacuum Jakar was Human, in a setting where Humans were NOT the dominant race. They didn't "Outbreed" anyone, much less races that actually are shorter lived and would outbreed humans. Humans mostly settled on the Veldt, the last truly fertile, hospitable bit of land for quite a wide swath as it avoided most of the ravages of the war. So most other races got it in their minds to kill the humans and take their land.

It went poorly for Jakar. He came into his own arcane powers at a time where man was being hunted to extinction. Several settlements remained, but they were armed camps, walled cities, and were eventually going to fall. Jakar himself lead a warband of human survivors, and wasn't content to just "Wait for the end". He decided to go out there and kick every other race square in the nuts until they stepped away from Humanity. And for a while had quite a bit of success.

Eventually him and his growing army settle down, content with the peace they had won (While the rest of the world struggled with starving to death and trying to rebuild society). Several of the groups he had kicked around earlier decided to band together, and came for Jakar's head on a pike and to finish off the Humans who were "Hogging all the good land". Overwhelming superiority to the Non-Human alliance.

Jakar, despairing, is inspired by a dream and a visitation from an Ancestor Spirit. He creates Necromancy of a sort. Uses his own people to fuel a necromantic ritual the likes the world has never seen (Or seen again yet), nearly decimating his own city in order to raise an army that could overwhelm the alliance against him. He goes to War, barely wins. It's a Pyrrhic victory where his army is shattered, but so is the enemy's. He can never mount a successful campaign again. Most of his human contemporaries vilify him for putting his own city to the sword. His generals who survived (And practiced the rites with Jakar) become the first cultists dedicated to Necromancy and the views of Jakar.

He's simultaneously considered the savior of Humanity as they did face a very real extinction at the time. And reviled for killing his own men in return for power (and the form of Necromancy he practiced/created also destroyed their souls, preventing any resurrection or rest in the afterlife). Non-Human sources of course considered him no better than a Demon. Most Good Aligned Deities hated him due to the danger his magic might have represented to their power. Most Evil Aligned Deities also hated him... but realized he could have been used as a sword against their Goody Two-Shoes enemies and tried to seduce Jakar to their side (... which is oddly why Tieflings exist in that setting, they are the children of Jakar Practioners and Devils who attempted to tempt them).

Ooh. Toughie.

I would describe that as... hmm.

Give some more info about his own personality, maybe?

[ArcturusV]

He knew their souls were kaput. Most of the humans he sacrificed also knew this and knew regardless of the way it was the end of the line.

He was a pretty grim guy. But he took in simple pleasures. He's the kinda guy that rarely smiles, laughs, etc. But will still enjoy a good bawdy joke or a prank. Dour and serious, but more of a reflection of the world he lives in. It's just hard to be happy go lucky when you're on the verge of extinction.

He was kind of a brutish man. Despite being a mage he wasn't exactly "Clever". He wasn't a brilliant tactician or renown thinker in any regards. He liked to keep things simple, direct, and to the point. Cowmen are genociding my people? I kick them right in the bull testicles. Diplomacy? Does that mean I put a steel toed boot on before I kick?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

He knew their souls were kaput. Most of the humans he sacrificed also knew this and knew regardless of the way it was the end of the line.

He was a pretty grim guy. But he took in simple pleasures. He's the kinda guy that rarely smiles, laughs, etc. But will still enjoy a good bawdy joke or a prank. Dour and serious, but more of a reflection of the world he lives in. It's just hard to be happy go lucky when you're on the verge of extinction.

He was kind of a brutish man. Despite being a mage he wasn't exactly "Clever". He wasn't a brilliant tactician or renown thinker in any regards. He liked to keep things simple, direct, and to the point. Cowmen are genociding my people? I kick them right in the bull testicles. Diplomacy? Does that mean I put a steel toed boot on before I kick?

Hrrm.

Alright, final ruling is "Good, but Scary." Also, were he brought back, the "Good" bit would probably not stick around.

[AttilaTheGeek]

I definitely think Sesma is not Evil. Everything he did was for the greater good of his own species. If he had instead done lethal damage to those kobolds he fought, and then took their stuff, that would be evil. But beating them up, giving them a chance to improve, and taking their leader under his wing is not evil at all.

[Randomguy]

I'd put Quorren as Lawful Evil, but only very slightly. I know barbarians can't be lawful, but his entire culture has a strict code of honour. No way that's chaotic. The big thing against him was the "torturing a 16 year old" bit. If he had used "kidnap and torture" as a last resort, that would have been Lawful Neutral. But they had a rogue and probably casters, they could have at least tried to find out some other way.

Thassian is definitely Evil. I'd have put him at good or neutral until I read the very last paragraph. Immortality for everyone? Great. Forcing them to give up their physical body completely? Not cool.

I'd put Jakar as Good or Neutral with an alignment shift to Evil when he decided to wipe out his own army to make undead soldiers. I mean, really? The whole point of using undead soldiers is so the living ones don't have to die.

Sesma is a tricky one. I'd put him at evil, since what he's doing seems no different from eugenics to me.

[Matticussama]

As is the case in all discussions of D&D alignment, these views are expressly my opinion. I may come off as writing in a very "my opinion is fact" sort of style occasionally, but I do not mean that as an insult to differing opinion. Thus, I preemptively apologize if that matter-of-fact style seems overly critical of certain actions or justifications for those actions.

While alignment is purely subjective and subject to debate, one thing to keep in mind is that in D&D "for the greater good" is not a legitimate justification for Good (capital G) characters to knowingly commit blatantly evil acts. It can serve as a mitigating factor for people to be some brand of neutral - committing an evil act against group X in order to save group Y - but not Capital G Good. Just because something is necessary does not make it morally right, at least in a D&D context; obviously, IRL moralism v.s realism/pragmatism has had this debate for millennia, and I have no interest in opening that can of worms. Sometimes a character may have to commit an evil act for the "greater good" but that does not somehow justify the act and make it any less evil, simply more understandable given the context of the situation.

What makes D&D alignment such a headache, of course, is the hodge-podge of Medieval morality and modern morality. In some cases D&D upholds Medieval codes as Good (like codes of Chivalry) while at others they uphold codes of Good that would be utterly alien to a Medieval civilization. Of course, D&D is nowhere near simulationist in that regard so we're left with often incompatible mindsets. Thus, at the end of the day we all just get fed up and ultimately rule alignment (for the most part) what we personally believe.

[snoopy13a]

All four are evil in my book.

1) The barbarian. Hmm, kidnap and torture? Evil. I don't care what your "culture" says.

2) The thrallherd. Hmm, slavery? Evil. You have no right to control the lives and very souls of others--even if you think they are better off.

3) The Kobold. Hmm, murder? Evil. Culling the weak to make the group strong is evil.

4) The necromancer. Hmm, murder of an entire city? Evil. Murdering innocents never justifies the end result.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

All four are evil in my book.
3) The Kobold. Hmm, murder? Evil. Culling the weak to make the group strong is evil.

90% of what adventurers do is murder, and Sesma wasn't culling the weak - hell, the leader of those Kobolds had a few levels on him. Sesma culled those who were making life worse for Kobold society as a whole.


Sesma is a tricky one. I'd put him at evil, since what he's doing seems no different from eugenics to me.

As above; Sesma wasn't killing on the basis of genetics, or even moral judgement. Strength and weakness made as little difference as guilt or innocence; the only measure he cared about was whether their continued existence was good or bad for the race as a whole.

[Averis Vol]

90% of what adventurers do is murder, and Sesma wasn't culling the weak - hell, the leader of those Kobolds had a few levels on him. Sesma culled those who were making life worse for Kobold society as a whole.



As above; Sesma wasn't killing on the basis of genetics, or even moral judgement. Strength and weakness made as little difference as guilt or innocence; the only measure he cared about was whether their continued existence was good or bad for the race as a whole.

That doesn't make him not evil. I would put him at neutral evil for the simple fact he kills who he wishes in a sort of Darwinist natural selection, except he's playing the part of nature. This is all to make his people the alpha, which is trying to make an inherently evil race the dominant, thus spreading strife through the world. He may be indifferent to the subject, but that's just where the neutral part is coming into play.

[Matticussama]

The part that puts Sesma in the evil category to me is the following part specifically:


Sesma does not hesitate to kill even large groups of Kobolds, if their actions threaten the well-being of the race as a whole. Furthermore, Sesma believes that his race is not well-suited to self-governance or democracy; less intelligent Kobolds must be shaped and directed by their superiors, and pain, fear and intimidation are clearly the superior mechanisms for establishing dominance.

One would need to know exactly what his definition of "actions that threaten the well-being of the race" is to know just how much he is willing to kill for. Ruling through pain, fear, and intimidation is also a strongly evil trait, especially when paired with the willingness to kill off whoever threatens his particular view of the "well-being of the race."

In the end, I would probably call him Lawful Evil. He clearly cares for the good of his people and strives for a greater accomplishments and power for the Kobolds, but is willing to undertake extremely dubious moral actions to achieve those accomplishments. Callous disregard for individual life is a fairly evil trait as well, since he would essentially be turning the less intelligent Kobolds into slaves or brain-washed servants by "shaping and directing" them.

[Averis Vol]

Got one of my own:

Omen Varjo

Omen is a wizard specced into the schools of illusion and necromancy. He spent an extended portion of his life as a teacher of psychology, only dabbling in the mystic way after he had finished grading his classes work. He enjoys a fine wine with his group of murder hobo companions and was always willing to loan money someone, with the express consent that he could use their corpses to practice his art on once they passed away.

Ever smiling He was a fairly jovial man, but his bright grey eyes held a glare that could make a grown man quiver in his boots. When invoked his wrath is terrible; The single example of him losing his temper was when he found a group of smugglers playing cards in a backroom, their stolen beasts sick and malnourished, and the back breaking straw being a wyrmling black dragon laying dead within a cage; his throat slit and his blood still pooling. He forced the men to watch via mass hold person as he brought about great vestiges (phantasmal assailanted them into the negative dex and wisdom) of their worst nightmares to assault their minds, and only after they were curled up on the ground babbling incoherently did he remove the bastard sword he was given by a clan of halflings for saving them and draw it across their throats, just waiting to see the life dwindle out of them.

He went home after that mission and bought a handful of onyx to bring back the dragon with a living creatures sentience (Wyrmling Vampiric dragon). His DM was nice and let him keep it as a familiar, though if it wished to leave him and return home he would not stop it.

Evil or not Evil?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

That doesn't make him not evil. I would put him at neutral evil for the simple fact he kills who he wishes in a sort of Darwinist natural selection, except he's playing the part of nature. This is all to make his people the alpha, which is trying to make an inherently evil race the dominant, thus spreading strife through the world. He may be indifferent to the subject, but that's just where the neutral part is coming into play.

Again, he isn't doing anything to "Improve" his race by selective breeding, or culling the weak, or anything like that. He's killing those whose *actions* threaten the well-being of the race. For instance, Sesma would kill Kobolds who committed stupid acts of aggression against humans, and thus brought Human ire down upon the race as a whole.

The plan Sesma was pushing for the future of the Kobold race wasn't an evil world, either - he actually viewed it as more a symbiotic relationship with humans, with Kobold shadow-societies aiding in the defense of human cities, policing human ghettos, and doing everything they could to ensure that humans had a stable, prosperous and peaceful society (from which the Kobolds could then profit).

Being indifferent to "Justice" is different from being indifferent to "Good." Think... Dr. Manhattan at the end of Watchmen. He didn't morally approve of Ozymandias or morally disapprove of Rorshach; justice was not a part of his decision, merely the fact that letting Rorshach live would be a detriment to Human life.

[Matticussama]

Omen Varjo seems Lawful Neutral leaning towards Evil (but not quite evil yet) to me. The fact that he made sure that all of the bodies he experimented upon were willing and well-compensated negates some of the "evil" of Necromancy. Killing the smugglers wasn't good, but could be justified to some degree given the circumstances. Quasi-torturing the smugglers does push him towards evil, although I'd say it also depends upon the future details. If he only did it that once due to losing his temper, then I'd keep him Lawful Neutral. If he made a habit of such extreme punishment, however, that would definitely push towards evil.

[snoopy13a]

Omen the Wizard. Torture and murder. Evil.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Got one of my own:

Omen Varjo

Omen is a wizard specced into the schools of illusion and necromancy. He spent an extended portion of his life as a teacher of psychology, only dabbling in the mystic way after he had finished grading his classes work. He enjoys a fine wine with his group of murder hobo companions and was always willing to loan money someone, with the express consent that he could use their corpses to practice his art on once they passed away.

Ever smiling He was a fairly jovial man, but his bright grey eyes held a glare that could make a grown man quiver in his boots. When invoked his wrath is terrible; The single example of him losing his temper was when he found a group of smugglers playing cards in a backroom, their stolen beasts sick and malnourished, and the back breaking straw being a wyrmling black dragon laying dead within a cage; his throat slit and his blood still pooling. He forced the men to watch via mass hold person as he brought about great vestiges (phantasmal assailanted them into the negative dex and wisdom) of their worst nightmares to assault their minds, and only after they were curled up on the ground babbling incoherently did he remove the bastard sword he was given by a clan of halflings for saving them and draw it across their throats, just waiting to see the life dwindle out of them.

He went home after that mission and bought a handful of onyx to bring back the dragon with a living creatures sentience (Wyrmling Vampiric dragon). His DM was nice and let him keep it as a familiar, though if it wished to leave him and return home he would not stop it.

Evil or not Evil?

Evil. His cruelty accomplished nothing, and served no purpose; he was only indulging his anger.

I might be willing to amend the ruling, if I had more information on his actions and motivations outside of that single incident.

[Averis Vol]

Well, he kept another wizards spellbook that held a succubi secretary inside of it. when confronted in a dream by the other mage he refused to return the book, as it amplified his power immensely. lets see, heeeee........... hmm. He protected his home city near single handed from a hobgoblin clan that sought to take over the town, he bought property in town, taverns, inns and other social establishments and renovated them under a false name each time, and if someone wasn't willing to sell things would start to go on that would make the business look bad. He was disappointed that people accused him, but not surprised. His defense was that he was also a victim as a large amount of coin was stolen from him. He then proceeded to lead the outraged business owners in a suit against the mayor that resulted in paid vacation while the government fixed up their buildings free of charge.

there isn't much more, the campaign died soon after, so thats about it.

By the way, yes, he definitely was evil, he was just a happy go lucky guy.

[Averis Vol]

The fact that he made sure that all of the bodies he experimented upon were willing and well-compensated negates some of the "evil" of Necromancy.

well, most of them........ Thankfully he was more into the debuff aspect of necro rather then summoning.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Well, he kept another wizards spellbook that held a succubi secretary inside of it. when confronted in a dream by the other mage he refused to return the book, as it amplified his power immensely. lets see, heeeee........... hmm. He protected his home city near single handed from a hobgoblin clan that sought to take over the town, he bought property in town, taverns, inns and other social establishments and renovated them under a false name each time, and if someone wasn't willing to sell things would start to go on that would make the business look bad. He was disappointed that people accused him, but not surprised. His defense was that he was also a victim as a large amount of coin was stolen from him. He then proceeded to lead the outraged business owners in a suit against the mayor that resulted in paid vacation while the government fixed up their buildings free of charge.

there isn't much more, the campaign died soon after, so thats about it.

By the way, yes, he definitely was evil, he was just a happy go lucky guy.

Yeah, I'd say he was evil. Not a black-and-hardened evil, maybe, more an evil born of lazy narcissism and unchecked power.

[Draken]

Quorren looks True Neutral to me.

That 16 year old, as far as D&D is concerned, could very well be a trained barbarian, sorcerer, rogue, bard, paladin, fighter or ranger. So a perfectly capable combatant right there. In a 'primitive' viking society, at that age he would very much be earning his keep and looking for a companion to start a family. It is a harsh world, one where you have to live off of raiding.

Thassian looks True Neutral to me as well. His overall goals appear to be positive and his methods ping good on the BoED-o-meter, I think. But his overall mindset is fairly alien.

[Matticussama]

Well, he kept another wizards spellbook that held a succubi secretary inside of it. when confronted in a dream by the other mage he refused to return the book, as it amplified his power immensely. lets see, heeeee........... hmm. He protected his home city near single handed from a hobgoblin clan that sought to take over the town, he bought property in town, taverns, inns and other social establishments and renovated them under a false name each time, and if someone wasn't willing to sell things would start to go on that would make the business look bad. He was disappointed that people accused him, but not surprised. His defense was that he was also a victim as a large amount of coin was stolen from him. He then proceeded to lead the outraged business owners in a suit against the mayor that resulted in paid vacation while the government fixed up their buildings free of charge.

there isn't much more, the campaign died soon after, so thats about it.

By the way, yes, he definitely was evil, he was just a happy go lucky guy.

With that additional detail I would definitely shift from my Lawful Neutral assessment to Lawful Evil. Very savvy and working the business & legal systems quite adeptly, definitely maintaining the Lawful bent of the pre-arranged deals with people to experiment upon their bodies upon their death.

[Paseo H]

Evil. His cruelty accomplished nothing, and served no purpose; he was only indulging his anger.

I might be willing to amend the ruling, if I had more information on his actions and motivations outside of that single incident.

Moreover, evil done unto evil is still evil, even if to punish the evil.

Now, it's my turn.

Iason Antiochus was a warlord on a post apocalyptic desert planet. His first major offensive was to approach a monastery of neutral warrior monks and demand that they side with him, or be destroyed along with the civilians also housed there (including children.) They refused, and they were destroyed.

This brought about fear and anger from rival tribes, who despite being more bloodthirsty and generally evil, respected the neutrality of the monks, and thus the war began in earnest.

Eventually, Iason and his generals were approached by powerful offworlders who wished to side with him. The leader of the offworlders was a bloodthirsty, psychopathic cultist (CE, borderline Complete Monster) named Yue, who saw him as a 'Chosen One,' and though with her help they spared children from there on, they were even more brutal towards everyone else under her influence, their bloodlust only checked by the positive influence of one of the other offworlders.

However, the real story begins as Iason wins the war, uniting all the tribes, and becoming God Emperor of their world.

In the first years, while many were pleased that some measure of reliable peace had been attained, a vocal minority agitated for a more egalitarian form of government. Iason, under the influence of Yue and her adopted 'son' Taka, reasoned that nothing should threaten the hard won peace, even if it meant the death of innocents, and so he reluctantly agreed to their plan: disguise themselves as generals, and allow them to purge the dissidents, sparing only children and scholars (who would be brainwashed/bribed into supporting his regime). As planned, after the outcry becoming too loud to ignore, he would make a big show of 'executing' the generals publically, appeasing the populous by assuring them that they were simply rogues and that he would take greater steps to keep his army in line.

Iason realizes that he could not have achieved any of this without their help, but is horrified by how seemingly lacking in conscience they are, and wonders if this was not simply a 'devil's bargain.'

Evil or Not Evil?

[Averis Vol]

Iason definitely doesn't sound good, and is probably evil. He just so happened to be afraid of people even more bat **** crazy then he is.

[Hyena]

A-a-a-nd my turn. By the way, in this setting paladins are not bound by code of honor and do not have aligment restrictions. All they have to do is to believe their deeds to be honorable.

Theresa Traynor. Warning, A WALL OF TEXT.
A long time ago there was a woman, who happened to live in a village. Said village was once pillaged by a band of orcs, one of which was honorless enough to rape said woman. A half-orc was eventually born and named Theresa. Twenty and a while years later she happened to be a paladin.
A terrible war broke out in neighbor's land, and one of Theresa's friends decided he will go and help, due to being a glory hound. Horified by the thought of what can happen to him, she decided to conscript. Unfortunately...
The war happened to be... already lost. Forces which Theresa joined consisted of ragtag bunch of guerilla, leader of which wasn't exactly too shy of:
1) Shooting prisoners in the head
2) Never feeding conscripts from the other land
3) Trying to blackmail his people into staing with him.
4) Dealing with not-exactly-celestial outsiders to beat his enemy.

Horrified by the man and his people, who never objected him, Traynor deserted after a man she swore to protect was killed, and joined the opposite forces. Her former enemies proved to be more honorable - she was even given a duty to guard her former comrades, now - prisoners, not a single of which was murdered, but each of them eventually escaped, murdering a whole lot of people in the process. She even found a mentor - an old, wise and powerful orc-favored soul.
And that turned out not to be a good thing, because said mentor then decided it would be a good idea to go and rape Theresa's best friend. When confronted and questioned, he found no better excuse then "Gods told be to do so". Enraged and frustrated (you see, that particular case have hit a little close to home), she challenged him and fought a duel, which she lost. The cleric happened to be epic leveled.
Looking for revenge for herself and her friend, she started to look for the way to kill the Mentor and eventually found out a way - he must be poisoned and killed by individual, who is infused by black magic by the ritual, which will forever taint your soul. She was unwilling to do such a thing, until she saw the Mentor sacrficing a sentient being.

After poisoning and killing the man and selling her soul, she headed to her hometown, which wasn't exactly the one she remember - that one was ridden with crime and corruption. In the first day of her return, she was robbed in the middle of a bright day AND arrested for defending herself. Then she was thrown into prison, into overcrowded cell with said robber, evil cleric and some rapists. That was the moment she finally snapped.
After breaking herself out of prison, she have started to seek and kill of any criminal or corrupred guard she could find. She murdered a half-hundred of people before being caught and executed by authorities.
She deserted from an army during the war, switched sides, sold her soul, defied the law and decided to become the killer. Evil or not?

[Lorsa]

I'll read through the others later, but I'll start with the first two posted.

Quorren: Mostly deluded but probably more on the evil side than the good side.

Thassian: Evil, definitely. Also deluded though.

[AgentofHellfire]

Quorren--Evil, if only in the lowercase sense.

Thassian--Removing free will from the equation is pretty damn bad. Evil.

Sesma--However good Sesma might be with Kobolds, Sesma's attitudes towards non-kobolds put the kobold certainly beneath good...if it gets to the point where Sesma is willing to kill non-kobolds for advancement of the kobold race, than evil.

Theresa Traynor--Up until she snapped, I would actually say she's good. Post-snapping, she's just barely into evil. Thieves are part of the group known as criminal.

I'll be putting up mine shortly...