Pathfinder Rogue (Or Rogue-like), Looking For Help

[Urpriest]

The Rogue in my campaign is a bit unoptimized, and the DM has been strongly hinting that he needs to make his character more effective. The player is amenable too, but he needs help, and none of us have been able to come up with much advice.

I think he'd be fine with a change of class, provided he can stick pretty closely with the theme and background that he's already put together. His character is a pirate, with a tendency to dual-wield (rapier and dagger I think). Beyond that, things are probably fairly flexible.

What are good ways to build a powerful Pathfinder Rogue? Are there other classes that fit the theme but might work better? (Ninja could be a tough sell due to its stereotypical opposition to Pirates, but if we find enough Piratey stuff for them to do maybe I can change things). I'd also like to keep the character as a useful Face as possible, since the rest of the party doesn't have that role particularly well-covered.

We're operating under rolled ability scores, and while I don't know what his rolls are I can probably find out. We're currently 16th level, expecting to go into a homebrewed version of epic, so this needs to be a character that can operate at a relatively high level. I'd prefer to stick to Pathfinder material, but we have some access to third party (though no psionics, the DM doesn't want to learn them) and can potentially beg a few things from 3.5, but I'd rather avoid that.

Any suggestions?

[Teh_das]

I think a trapper ranger may do well in this situation. it gives more flexibility to stats as it gives the TWF feat chain for free, as well as the character will keep trapfinding. This would end with boosted BAB, HP, less reliance on dex for feats, and still keep up skill points and trapfinding.

[DonDuckie]

Optimized for what? I'll assume damage...

I would suggest ninja(I don't know why they would oppose pirates; they both tried to overwhelm their enemies using every advantage they could find.) And poison use - yay!

Are firearms allowed? firearms and sneak attack go well together, focus on ninja tricks (or rogue talents) that improve sneak attact - bleeding attack, pressure points, etc.

Otherwise: a dip in a class with cantrips or orisons and an attack cantrip(or orison) like acid splash, would give a good way to make a touch sneak attack with energy damage. Perhaps the magus with spell combat class feature: cast as "off hand attack".

Combine the two. A self-roloading pistol for full attack + spell. Greater invis. to make it all sneak attacks.

I know this isn't sword and dagger, but rogue are a little better using ranged weapons along with ways of hitting stuff(guns or spells or brilliant energy weapons).

[Urpriest]

I think a trapper ranger may do well in this situation. it gives more flexibility to stats as it gives the TWF feat chain for free, as well as the character will keep trapfinding. This would end with boosted BAB, HP, less reliance on dex for feats, and still keep up skill points and trapfinding.

How useful is a trapper ranger in combat at the high levels?


Optimized for what? I'll assume damage...

I would suggest ninja(I don't know why they would oppose pirates; they both tried to overwhelm their enemies using every advantage they could find.) And poison use - yay!

Are firearms allowed? firearms and sneak attack go well together, focus on ninja tricks (or rogue talents) that improve sneak attact - bleeding attack, pressure points, etc.

Otherwise: a dip in a class with cantrips or orisons and an attack cantrip(or orison) like acid splash, would give a good way to make a touch sneak attack with energy damage. Perhaps the magus with spell combat class feature: cast as "off hand attack".

Combine the two. A self-roloading pistol for full attack + spell. Greater invis. to make it all sneak attacks.

I know this isn't sword and dagger, but rogue are a little better using ranged weapons along with ways of hitting stuff(guns or spells or brilliant energy weapons).

Damage is the primary goal, though if it's better to go for debuffing or the like that's fine too. The goal is for him to have something useful to do in combat. It would also be nice to have advice on raising defenses, as currently he's been rather more vulnerable than he would like, particularly with respect to saving throws. Is it viable to just be hiding constantly as a stealth-focused character in Pathfinder?

Firearms unfortunately aren't generally allowed, though with a lot of effort we may be able to claim his character invented them. I've heard Bleeding Attack is rather weak, and our combats are usually over in a few rounds, the goal is making sure the enemies can't kill any of us in those rounds.

Grabbing a cantrip and Magus amounts to making one of the attacks in a full attack as a touch attack at a cost of all other off-hand attacks. Since that attack would be at the highest attack bonus anyway, I don't know if it's worth that much.

Is there a reliable way to keep Greater Invis up? Preferably one that isn't prohibitively expensive? I'm a Cleric so I can't easily cast it, and our Sorceress doesn't seem to know it. Though if a Ninja of this level can do it reliably I suppose that's a plus. Would a Shadowdancer dip be helpful, or are there better ways to hide in combat in PF?

[DonDuckie]

the spell would replace all the off hand attacks, but a touch attack with energy damage overcomes DR and acid splash is SR: no, so it's a fair trade in my opinion.

About the greater invis. there's a ninja trick and advanced trick that accomplishes this: Vanishing Trick and Invisible Blade, as a swift action you become invisible for 1 round/level, invisible blade makes this work as greater invisibility. This won't take up either spell slot or action from teammates.

Bleeding attack in itself isn't a win-ticket, but combined with pressure points and crippling strike advanced rogue talent, you can do 3 STR damage per hit, and a paralyzed opponent may likely bleed out.

And with greater invis. all your attacks are sneak attacks, even though there're many ways of overcoming invisible attackers.
The capstone of ninja, is casting greater invisibility on yourself that can't be seen by see invisibility, invisibility purge or true seeing. Plus ability penalties on sneak attacks.

And you can spend a ki point to make an extra attack(or 2 shuriken attacks with flurry of stars trick).

There are rules for sniping; allowing you to attack and remain hidden(-20 to check, -10 with some trick/talent/feat i think), but I don't think it's that great, since you only get one attack.

I may be advocating the ninja class a bit much, but I just recently discovered it, and I really like it.

Extra:
In general - Iproved TWF and Greater TWF isn't worth it unless you are making touch attacks(or have some other way of bypassing some AC), you simply miss to often.
If he is to be a front line fighter, he and the party may want to invest in some protective items. Rogues/ninjas got a bad deal on saves. Maybe SR or mind blank.

[Ravens_cry]

Maybe I was just lucky, but Improved TWF and Greater TWF both were very useful for my Ninja. Ninja in general make pretty good Rogues for damage given their tricks, though they aren't good trap finders and disablers.
Making touch attacks is very doable if you go the gun route, which is quite doable if you are going Ninja.

[Person_Man]

My 2cp:
If by "Rogue-like" you mean high damage output, you may wish to look at the Magus, Alchemist, Summoner, or any full caster. They're generally better at it, and can duplicate, buff, or surpass the effects most Skills with spells.
If by "Rogue-like" you mean Skills and high damage output without spells, then your options are Rogue and Ninja.
Whatever you do, don't multi-class or go into a PrC. Pathfinder has some really useful and interesting capston abilities, and if you're going to be going from level 16+ into Epic, you'll want them.
The Ninja can use all Rogue Talents. It also grants a Ki Pool, which is very helpful for gaining access to surprisingly potent Monk Feats like Bewildering Koan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/bewildering-koan-general). Also, buy a Wand of Ki Leech (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/kiLeech.html#_ki-leech) and a Ring of Ki Mastery (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/ringsRodsStaves/rings.html#_ring-of-ki-mastery), and use it and your Ki points liberally.
Ask your DM if you can mix and match archetypes. Each archetype tends to have between 0-2 useful abilities, sandwiched in between 1-3 cruddy abilities. Trading out only some of your abilities dramatically can dramatically improve a build, especially if you're allowed to start with a Ninja chassis and trade out to get Rogue and Monk archetype abilities.
Sap Adapt + Sap Master Feats can give you some fairly massive damage. Work with your team to find a way to reliably make enemies Flat Footed, like working with a Flowing Monk as a Flanking partner.
Mounted Skirmisher (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedFeats.html#mounted-skirmisher) Feat can give anyone Pounce, which is much harder to come by in Pathfinder, but is generally still important for keeping melee damage competitive at high levels. I'm particularly fond of putting a Small race on a Medium mount, especially if it's an ally's Summoned monster or Eidolon or whatnot. Having a mount also makes you more maneuverable, and gives your enemies another target.

[Urpriest]

I've got Mind Blank as a domain spell, so I can definitely drop it on him every day (though the party Alchemist also has pretty low Will, so it's a question of prioritization). Spell Resistance might be worthwhile, though the spell itself has a fairly low duration. Still, for some fights can definitely be applied. Any good ways to buff Fort saves?

Provided he insists on still doing melee, are there good ways for this sort of character to get free movement, so he can get his full attacks off more reliably?

Edit:


My 2cp:
If by "Rogue-like" you mean high damage output, you may wish to look at the Magus, Alchemist, Summoner, or any full caster. They're generally better at it, and can duplicate, buff, or surpass the effects most Skills with spells.
If by "Rogue-like" you mean Skills and high damage output without spells, then your options are Rogue and Ninja.
Whatever you do, don't multi-class or go into a PrC. Pathfinder has some really useful and interesting capston abilities, and if you're going to be going from level 16+ into Epic, you'll want them.
The Ninja can use all Rogue Talents. It also grants a Ki Pool, which is very helpful for gaining access to surprisingly potent Monk Feats like Bewildering Koan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/bewildering-koan-general). Also, buy a Wand of Ki Leech (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/kiLeech.html#_ki-leech) and a Ring of Ki Mastery (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/ringsRodsStaves/rings.html#_ring-of-ki-mastery), and use it and your Ki points liberally.
Ask your DM if you can mix and match archetypes. Each archetype tends to have between 0-2 useful abilities, sandwiched in between 1-3 cruddy abilities. Trading out only some of your abilities dramatically can dramatically improve a build, especially if you're allowed to start with a Ninja chassis and trade out to get Rogue and Monk archetype abilities.
Sap Adapt + Sap Master Feats can give you some fairly massive damage. Work with your team to find a way to reliably make enemies Flat Footed, like working with a Flowing Monk as a Flanking partner.
Mounted Skirmisher (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedFeats.html#mounted-skirmisher) Feat can give anyone Pounce, which is much harder to come by in Pathfinder, but is generally still important for keeping melee damage competitive at high levels. I'm particularly fond of putting a Small race on a Medium mount, especially if it's an ally's Summoned monster or Eidolon or whatnot. Having a mount also makes you more maneuverable, and gives your enemies another target.


By Rogue-like I mean thematically. I don't know quite how strictly this guy will want to stick to his current character concept, but something that makes sense as a swashbuckling pirate-type is the goal here. Partywise we need someone able to cover Face and Trapfinding duty, since the others don't really have the skills to cover either (to the extent to which either are necessary, by the way: if those roles are still largely bypassable with spells in PF it would be handy to get some suggestions on that front, I'm ruing the lack of the Summon Elemental Reserve Feat). We don't necessarily need high damage (if this were 3.5 a Factotum would probably be fine, for example), but if the guy is going to be spending his actions in combat making attacks then he needs high damage (or a large stack of debuffs or the like) for those attacks to be relevant.

By mix and match archetypes, do you mean take only some of the tradeoffs for a particular archetype? Or take Rogue or Monk archetypes on a Ninja, like ACF-chaining in 3.5?

Sap Adept and Sap Master do look nice, but we've been fighting a fair number of undead and constructs recently. Still, that's more a recent trend than anything, and otherwise that's a pretty huge heaping of damage with a side of tie-up-to-interrogate-later.

Regarding mount-based antics, I don't know if he'll be willing (or allowed) to change his race from human. Also, are there any ways to keep a relatively hardy mount available in PF without spending lots of class levels on it? I feel like anything we picked up as a mount would die pretty fast, and waiting for me to summon one up for him means he's spending a round doing very little.

[Ravens_cry]

.
Mounted Skirmisher (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedFeats.html#mounted-skirmisher) Feat can give anyone Pounce, which is much harder to come by in Pathfinder, but is generally still important for keeping melee damage competitive at high levels. I'm particularly fond of putting a Small race on a Medium mount, especially if it's an ally's Summoned monster or Eidolon or whatnot. Having a mount also makes you more maneuverable, and gives your enemies another target.
[/LIST]
It's awful unclear by what is meant as a Mounted Combat feat, but a Sohei (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/sohei)potentially gets Mounted Skirmisher at first level. From there, go paladin. Besides smite, Saddle Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/saddle-surge) is, in my opinion, an undervalued damage enhancer. Mounted Skirmisher hardly needed if you can get a small cat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions#TOC-Cat-Small) as a mount, doing over 400 damage if you and your cats attacks hit. And on a crit . . .

[DonDuckie]

If you're planning on casting a spell every day, it is worth investing in a magic item.

Ravens_cry:
I'm not saying the extra attacks are useless, but they are at -7/-12 compared to your BAB, and with a 3/4 BAB class you need a way of bypassing some AC, invisibility and touch attacks accomplish just this... and the ninja is very good at doing all this.

If you do go ninja; ask the GM if he'll allow an "Extra Ninja Trick" feat, it's only fair since many other classes have some sort of "Extra Class Feature". I find tricks more useful than feats quite often.

[Ravens_cry]

If you're planning on casting a spell every day, it is worth investing in a magic item.

Ravens_cry:
I'm not saying the extra attacks are useless, but they are at -7/-12 compared to your BAB, and with a 3/4 BAB class you need a way of bypassing some AC, invisibility and touch attacks accomplish just this... and the ninja is very good at doing all this.

They are indeed. :smallbiggrin:
My next ninja is so going to go gun, taking the Powerful sneak rogue talents as well.

[Karoht]

If you're planning on casting a spell every day, it is worth investing in a magic item.

Ravens_cry:
I'm not saying the extra attacks are useless, but they are at -7/-12 compared to your BAB, and with a 3/4 BAB class you need a way of bypassing some AC, invisibility and touch attacks accomplish just this... and the ninja is very good at doing all this.

If you do go ninja; ask the GM if he'll allow an "Extra Ninja Trick" feat, it's only fair since many other classes have some sort of "Extra Class Feature". I find tricks more useful than feats quite often.
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/ninja-trick-ex
Gaining Ninja Tricks can be done through Talents if needed. Therefore you can take the feat Extra Talent, choose Ninja Trick.
There is a feat to gain a Ki pool but I think it scales from Wisdom where the Ninja gets it from Charisma.
And yes. Bewildering Koan, if this guy already has a solid Bluff, is totally worth the investment if he can qualify.

Also, the Rogue Talent Snap Shot (not to be confused with the shooting feat from the precise shot line of the same name) really gives the Rogue a cool feature in the event of a surprise round. Totally worth it if one is going to take some tricks like Ninja smoke bombs or something of the sort. Poison/Choking/Blind bombs in the surprise round? It's the kind of thing that can save the party from an untimely scry and die TPK.

[DonDuckie]

About the trapfinding - If you're not too goodish a cleric, may I suggest a human bloody skeleton:

Cost: 50 gp
1 HD: 1d8+2 hp
fast healing 1
and [drumroll]

Deathless (Su)

A bloody skeleton is destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points, but it returns to unlife 1 hour later at 1 hit point, allowing its fast healing thereafter to resume healing it. A bloody skeleton can be permanently destroyed if it is destroyed by positive energy, if it is reduced to 0 hit points in the area of a bless or hallow spell, or if its remains are sprinkled with a vial of holy water.

And as usual skeletons: immune to poisons, cold, mind affacting, ability drain, and many other things often encoutered in traps... including death:smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

Not being an especially good-ish cleric by any means (frustrating when I realized I couldn't cast Align Weapon: Good, but handy in other respects), I may just invest in a few such skeletons (one would be too few, being able to only find one trap per hour is unfortunate). There's also the difficulty of skeletons not being able to read and thus not triggering traps of that sort, but most such should be magical and hence spotted with continuous Identify from my Archetype.

If the rogue was going ranged, are there any ways to extend the 30 foot limitation on sneak attack?

[DonDuckie]

Not being an especially good-ish cleric by any means (frustrating when I realized I couldn't cast Align Weapon: Good, but handy in other respects), I may just invest in a few such skeletons (one would be too few, being able to only find one trap per hour is unfortunate). There's also the difficulty of skeletons not being able to read and thus not triggering traps of that sort, but most such should be magical and hence spotted with continuous Identify from my Archetype.

If the rogue was going ranged, are there any ways to extend the 30 foot limitation on sneak attack?

You could get more, or get one really tough one, which isn't useless in battle...

the Sniper archetype for rogue gets +10 ft per 3 levels. Sniper Goggles(APG) make sneak attacks at any range and gives +2 damage per sneak attack die.

[Lycar]

Damage is the primary goal, though if it's better to go for debuffing or the like that's fine too. The goal is for him to have something useful to do in combat. It would also be nice to have advice on raising defenses, as currently he's been rather more vulnerable than he would like, particularly with respect to saving throws. Is it viable to just be hiding constantly as a stealth-focused character in Pathfinder?

Okay if the goal is to damage and he wants to do the whole rapier & dagger thing then I presume the Two Weapon Fighting line of feats will be right for him. Now the thing is how to enable his Sneak Attacks. Tumbling is a lot harder in PF, what with the scaling DCs, so he has to constantly invest into the skill (and maybe spring for Skill Focus too, it gives +6 in his case!) so there are other options:

If the party usually fights in close formations, ganging up (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/gang-up-combat) on the enemies will do the trick.

If he wants to be a face guy and also keep the swashbuckling flavour, this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/two-weapon-feint-combat) line (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-two-weapon-feint-combat) of feats makes feinting viable, as as you keep your Bluff skill relevant. Take that Skill Focus (Bluff) feat! And maybe even deceitful (http://www.pathfinder-srd.nl/wiki/Deceitful) too, +4 is nothing to sneeze at!

Also, 4500 gp for a magic item that give a +3 to all CHA-based skill checks sounds like a solid investment. At lv. 16 with a 14 CHA he could have a Bluff skill bonus of around 21-34, depending on items and feats. Remember that he has to beat the opponent's CMD with his Bluff check in order to feint successfully.

Remember that feinting also makes DEX-based opponents easier to hit. And the natural enemy of a swashbuckler is another swashbuckler (tin-cans are their nemesis :smallwink: ).

But the real beauty about Rogues is what they can do with their talents. Some people say that Bleeding attack is weak, but this is situational (then again, what isn't). I would say it depends a lot on how much metagaming you do concerning knowledge of enemy HP totals.

At 8d6 sneak attack, forcing an enemy to take 8 pts. of damage at the beginning of their turn is basically +8 bonus damage 1/round. Spread that kind of love around by hitting multiple mook type enemies on the surprise round and you can ignore them for the 1 or two rounds they need to bleed out. Or they try to heal themselves or something. Either way, they are as good as out of the fight.

If he is more defensive-minded, every time he engages a worthy opponent in a one-on-one, offensive defense (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/offensive-defense-ex) is nice to have. For real debuffing, take one of your rogue talents from the Ninja list: Pressure points. 1 pt. of DEX or STR damage per hit can add up fast with a two weapon rogue.

Entanglement of Blades (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-advanced-talents/entanglement-of-blades-ex) turns off those pesky 5-foot-steps-of-impunity. Or the Step Up line of feats, but he can't really afford those.

Redirect Attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-advanced-talents/redirect-attack-ex) is very flavorful, especially for a swashbuckler. Unfortunately it is 1/day only. So that kinda limits its effectiveness. YMMV.

Unwittng Ally (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-advanced-talents/unwitting-ally-ex) is oh so fun if you can pull it off. But also oh so situational. Depends on how many boarding actions on decks full of low-level enemies you are fighting. But when the Dread Pirate just won't fall for your Feints... :smallamused:

Of course, if all you want to do is to kill your opponents as quickly as possible, style be damned (boo hiss) then you can't go wrong with 2 pts. of STR damage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-advanced-talents/crippling-strike-ex) per hit.

Confounding Blades (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-advanced-talents/confounding-blades-ex) on the other hand makes Barbarians with Come and get me! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/come-and-get-me-ex) cry... :smallbiggrin:

So there, some ideas. Lots of fun options for any Erroll Flynn wannabe. :smallwink:

[Karoht]

Crippling Strike + Pressure Points.
Do 3 STR with every Sneak Attack
Or 2 STR and 1 DEX.
But with 3 STR with every Sneak Attack, add on a STR damage poison like Dragon's Bile (the highest save DC poison I might add) and start turning your foes into weak little kittens.

Deadly Cocktail lets you add 2 applications of poison to a weapon at a time. Which means you can have 2 different poisons, or increase the save DC and duration of 1 poison. Like Dragon's Bile.

[Urpriest]

@Lycar: If I'm reading Offensive Defense right, there's nothing that stops it from stacking over multiple attacks, since it's a dodge bonus. If so, that's pretty crazy.

I think your Errol Flynn Rogue setup will be easier to get accepted by the player and DM than a ranged and/or ninja build. The one thing I'm worried about though: what does this guy do in the first round, when he might need to move in order to reach the enemy? Our other melee guy has Pounce, and without that Errol Flynn is essentially halving his damage output (fights with us rarely last more than three rounds).

[Person_Man]

By mix and match archetypes, do you mean take only some of the tradeoffs for a particular archetype? Or take Rogue or Monk archetypes on a Ninja, like ACF-chaining in 3.5?

So this is not RAW or RAI for Archetypes. But for the sake of improving weak classes, I'm of the opinion that if you have Class Feature A, you should be able to trade it away for any Archetype/ACF ability which requires that you sacrifice Class Ability A. For example, a Ninja could trade away Uncanny Dodge for Rogue Scout's Charge ability.

Or if you wanted to take it into pure homebrew, you could just mix and match Rogue, Ninja, and Monk class abilities.

[Lycar]

@Lycar: If I'm reading Offensive Defense right, there's nothing that stops it from stacking over multiple attacks, since it's a dodge bonus. If so, that's pretty crazy.
Debatable. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0k?APG-Offensive-Defense) Ask you GM but this thing really ought not to stack.

Besides, the fun part is to stick all these things on the same guy in one round. :smallbiggrin:


I think your Errol Flynn Rogue setup will be easier to get accepted by the player and DM than a ranged and/or ninja build. The one thing I'm worried about though: what does this guy do in the first round, when he might need to move in order to reach the enemy? Our other melee guy has Pounce, and without that Errol Flynn is essentially halving his damage output (fights with us rarely last more than three rounds).

Rogues are situational. If they can arrange things to their advantage they rock. If not... not so much. But for a social Rogue it is quite okay to be only good in combat. As opposed to devastating. That's Barbarians.

Also I did not recommend the Dirty Trick line of feats because as a Rogue he will have a hard time getting his CMB high enough to make that reliable. Leave that to the Fighter.

Besides, if your fights only ever last 3 rounds, it does not seem like lack of first-round efficiency will hurt your party's chances of victory much. In fact it would seem that the martial contribution of a Rogue is hardly even needed.

If you are wondering if the player in question will be okay with his character being awesome but impractical in combat, well, I suppose you gotta ask him. Style over substance? :smallconfused: Or stylish substance. That works too. :smallcool:

[Urpriest]

Besides, if your fights only ever last 3 rounds, it does not seem like lack of first-round efficiency will hurt your party's chances of victory much. In fact it would seem that the martial contribution of a Rogue is hardly even needed.


Fights lasting 3 rounds is not just a function of our prowess, it's the monsters as well. When you're fighting something that fires off death effects or piles of ability damage it pays to get them out of the fight as quickly as possible before party members start dropping. What you're saying is that rogues are situational. Ok, what sort of situations do we need to set up to get the guy a full attack in the first round?

[avr]

Get this ring (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/decoy-ring). It takes a full round action (withdraw) to activate then gives you invisibility (the condition not the spell, so not lost on an attack) for 3 rounds. Plus decoys. No daily limit. It's pretty good. Unless you get a round to buff before combat it won't give you a full attack (or any attack except an AoO, which admittedly you should be able to set up) in round 1 though.

No, I'm wrong. There's a swift action attack available if you get the heavy blade scabbard equipment trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/equipment-trick-combat) feat and quick draw. Between this and an AoO set up by the move and invisibility you're getting pretty close to a full attack in round 1.

[Urpriest]

Get this ring (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/decoy-ring). It takes a full round action (withdraw) to activate then gives you invisibility (the condition not the spell, so not lost on an attack) for 3 rounds. Plus decoys. No daily limit. It's pretty good. Unless you get a round to buff before combat it won't give you a full attack (or any attack except an AoO, which admittedly you should be able to set up) in round 1 though.

No, I'm wrong. There's a swift action attack available if you get the heavy blade scabbard equipment trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/equipment-trick-combat) feat and quick draw. Between this and an AoO set up by the move and invisibility you're getting pretty close to a full attack in round 1.

Huh, interesting. Arguably better than a Ring of Invisibility in that it functions like Greater Invisibility, though definitely worse than the ninja-based option. The Equipment Trick seems like a lot of feats invested for a rather small benefit...after all, the guy would be getting a single attack in the first round anyway.

[avr]

Well, he wouldn't get a normal attack if he's using a Withdraw full round action to activate the ring. And Quick Draw is hardly a wasted feat IMO. You don't need to get all the feats listed, only the ones for the actions you're going to use plus the equipment trick feat itself.

[Urpriest]

Well, he wouldn't get a normal attack if he's using a Withdraw full round action to activate the ring. And Quick Draw is hardly a wasted feat IMO. You don't need to get all the feats listed, only the ones for the actions you're going to use plus the equipment trick feat itself.

Yeah, I get that it's a way to mitigate the situation...it just seems like some rather expensive mitigation, for only one attack.

Also, it's got the disadvantage that if you really do get an AOO, then suddenly the monster is beyond full attack range and you have to move in again.

[HylianKnight]

Bleeding attack in itself isn't a win-ticket, but combined with pressure points and crippling strike advanced rogue talent, you can do 3 STR damage per hit, and a paralyzed opponent may likely bleed out.


Which is exactly why bleeding attack and crippling strike have asterisks next to them, because you can only apply one effect per sneak attack.



Hmmm, epic level rogues are hard, because so much of what they do (skill monkeys, dealing with traps, etc.) become irrelevant if you have a party with level 20+ magic users.

Rogues are one of, if not the best class for two-weapon fighting because they can get their sneak attacks off every hit. Getting 6 attacks off while flanking with a team mate, doing 10d6 + 2 Strength damage (Crippling Strike is a must) before you even do your normal damage on every one that connects is no joke.

Beyond that, maybe look at some cool prestige classes? I don't have any first hand experiences with rogue characters at that high of a level, but I've always drooled over some of the possibilities.

Arcane Trickster is honestly the first that jumps to mind. Legendarily bad qualifying for, but at level 16 your member can be a level 3 rogue/ level 4 sorcerer (to fit in better with play style and flavor)/level 9 Arcane Trickster. Or level 3 wizard/level 10 Trickster for greater optimization.

That way they get their sneak attack progression (7d6 instead of 8 or 9d6), free still and silent spell feats 5 times per day, 2 at will sneak attacks per day (i.e. not having to meet the criteria), greater invisibility as a free action, sneak attack damage on spells, AND 13 class levels worth of spells and slots.

Then when you guys level up they can continue getting rogue levels or arcane levels at their choice.

[Ravens_cry]

Honestly? Arcane Trickster not that hard to qualify for with Pathfinders skill changes. Yes, you will lose at least two levels of caster, and more likely three, but it's definitely worth it if you want to play an arcane rogue fusion. If you can get in early enough, the cap stone is very, very useful in my opinion, making area of effect spells pretty nasty.