Oh, My Sweet Summer Child - Game of Thrones Season 3

[TheSummoner]

Oh, my sweet summer child, what do you know about fear? Fear is for the winter, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides for years and children are born and live and die all in darkness. That is the time for fear, my little Lord, when the White Walkers move through the woods.

Thousands of years ago there came a night that lasted a generation. Kings froze to death in their castles, same as the shepherds in their huts. And women smothered their babies rather than see them starve, and wept and felt the tears freeze on their cheeks.

In that darkness, the White Walkers came for the first time. They swept through cities and kingdoms, riding their dead horses, hunting with their packs of pale spiders, big as hounds.

Game of Thrones Season 3 Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzI9v_B4sxw)

Only five weeks remain until the season 3 premiere of Game of Thrones, HBO's adaptation of the series of novels by George R. R. Martin starting with the book by the same name. Season 3 will cover the first half of the third book, A Storm of Swords.

Lots of cliffhangers (atleast for those who have not read the books) at the end of the second season. Stannis Baratheon's attack on King's Landing was beaten back thanks to the timely arrival of Tywin Lannister. Robb Stark broke his betrothal to the Frey girl. Winterfell is in ruins. And perhaps most ominous of all, the Nights Watch has come under attack by the White Walkers.

I'm really excited. A Storm of Swords is by far my favorite book in the series and I'm happy that they will be picking up some of the plot points that had been cut from season 2 (which covered the second book). Catelyn's brother and uncle will be introduced, as will Meera and Jojen Reed. The Bloody Mummers Brave Companions will also be getting some screen time this season.

Please put anything that people who haven't read the books would not be familiar with in spoiler tags.

[pita]

I just posted on facebook (translated from Hebrew) "The new Game of Thrones trailer made me get really excited and wondering what's about to happen until I realized that I've read the book about twenty times".
I'm gonna watch it, I'm gonna enjoy it, and I'm going to argue with people either that the changes are for the best or that the books are better than the show, depending which side they take.

[Bling Cat]

I must say, I'm almost as interested in the public's reaction to a few things as I am in actually seeing them. Book three is probably the book where the most things happen, with Book 1 being build-up and scene setting, and Book 2 being sort of static up until the end. Book 3 has the most stuff in it, and I'm looking forward to the show watchers catching up to the book readers in terms of that.

[Dr.Epic]

So long as there's plenty of the Imp, I'm happy!

[TheSummoner]

Well, Tyrion certainly got some of his best moments in book 3... Though as they're splitting it between seasons 3 and 4, you'll have to wait a season for half of those moments.

[Hazzardevil]

I'm definetly looking forward to season 3, but I was wondering if anyone could explain this trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv8ZSDpvh14)to me. There was a better definition version of it a few weeks ago but I can't find it now.
I have read all the books sans Dance of Dragons and I still can't make sense of it.

[TheFallenOne]

'Their world returns to ours'. It's just a 'Hey look, there's a new GoT season!' It has no relevance to what actually will happen in the show.

[Dr.Epic]

What is dead may never die!

[TheSummoner]

But rises again, harder and stronger!

So I guess the others follow the drowned god then. :smalltongue:

[Bling Cat]

But rises again, harder and stronger!

So I guess the others follow the drowned god then. :smalltongue:
You joke, but the speculation surrounding a connection there on the Forum of Ice and Fire is huge.

[Nomrom]

George R.R. Martin keeps a lot of his old papers in my university's library. So later, this month, he'll be visiting and giving a lecture. As part of the event, there will be a free showing of the season premiere a week early. I'm pretty stoked, even though I didn't manage to get a ticket for the lecture. Still hoping to get one of my books signed.

[Hawriel]

I really need to get HBO.

I just got season 2 in the mail last Tuesday. Heavy snow fall that night knocked my power out for two days. Still have not had time to sit down for a full marathon. I will tomorrow.

One of the best things about the series is seeing all the actors I did not know about before. Especially the younger ones. Seeing so much ability and future potential in a young person is amazing.

Particularly Maisie Williams. Seeing her player Arya as she turns into some dark later on will be thrilling and disturbing at the same time.

[Anderlith]

Anyone else angry about Season 2 changes (& No this isn't even about the Blackwater, I understand that)? Hopefully they will stay truer in Season 3

[Closet_Skeleton]

Anyone else angry about Season 2 changes (& No this isn't even about the Blackwater, I understand that)? Hopefully they will stay truer in Season 3

I found the changes a mixed bag in that the worst part of the season (Rob and Dany) and the best part of the season (Harranhal) were the least like the book.

[Anderlith]

I found the changes a mixed bag in that the worst part of the season (Rob and Dany) and the best part of the season (Harranhal) were the least like the book.

While some bits of Harrenhal were okay, I didn't like them killing off the Tickler early

[Closet_Skeleton]

While some bits of Harrenhal were okay, I didn't like them killing off the Tickler early

They could kill off Littlefinger early and I wouldn't care if it was to make more room for Charles Dance.

[Dienekes]

Anyone else angry about Season 2 changes (& No this isn't even about the Blackwater, I understand that)? Hopefully they will stay truer in Season 3

I can legitimately see why they made a few of the bigger changes, actually. Like showing Robb and Whatshername fall for each other, for example. Or saving some of the introduced characters for the next season. But a few of them irked me, not so much for being bad but for losing something better (The Tickler as was already mentioned).

Not enough to get angry though. This is an adaptation, I do not expect it to be 100% accurate. Actually I don't expect it to be 70% accurate, but instead to follow the structure and themes of the books which I'd say it's doing rather well.

And I have to agree with Closet_Skeleton that the Arya/Tywin scenes were magnificently done.

[Anderlith]

Don't even get me started on the lack of Jeyne Westerling. Terrible decision.

[Brother Oni]

Not enough to get angry though. This is an adaptation, I do not expect it to be 100% accurate. Actually I don't expect it to be 70% accurate, but instead to follow the structure and themes of the books which I'd say it's doing rather well.

I agree. The series' introduction of Tywin Lannister did in one scene what the books had to reinforce repeatedly before he showed up.

Some of the other changes are very obvious once I read the books - upping (or at least obsfucating) the ages of all the characters who are involved in sexual scenes for example.

I'm currently partway through the second half of the third book and one thing has struck me regarding Cersei (spoiler for the third book):
I'm not sure whether it's Lena Headey's portrayal or the changes for the adaptation, but the book Cersei seems very... fickle, almost petty.

During the battle of Blackwater in the TV series, she comes close to the book version but that's excusable due to alcohol and tension. Most of the time, she holds herself as a very strong and manipulative queen, well versed in politics, but the little games she plays with Tyrion in the book undermines her... dignity? Respectability? I can't quite find the right word to describe it. :smallconfused:

Note that I've only just reached Joffery's death, so I may be off in my interpretation of Cersei.

[Selrahc]

I'm currently partway through the second half of the third book and one thing has struck me regarding Cersei (spoiler for the third book):

Cersei has definitely been a lot more respectable in the tv series than in the books. The fickleness continues, and I'm interested to see just how they portray it, because in the TV series a lot of the more blurgh or petty actions from Cersei have been moved off onto Joffrey. Joffrey in the tv series is a lot more of a presence, where in the books he was more of an easily manipulated totem for Lannister power. Joffrey was still a tosser, but he didn't have any explicit prostitute murder scenes, he didn't kill all his bastard offspring, and he didn't threaten his mother with death.

Spoiler for end of third book and 4th.
The obvious thing to push Cersei into the more "completely nutso" territory she covers in book 4, is to have her more or less go off the rails following Joffreys death. That's basically what happened anyway but it was building off more previous action in the book.

[Kato]

Regarding Cersei. Spoilers for... up to book 3 (minor for book 4)

While she really is not a likeable character I dare say many people are harder on her then she deserves. Yeah, she is petty and not as smart as Tyrion but while the show puts more emphasis on her actual character depth - mostly her care for her children and a bit her wish to be respected for more than her **** - it is there in the books. (It helps that she becomes a POV character later)
Her feelings towards Tyrion, while not justified... well, his birth did kill their mother. I'm not saying she's justified in it but her dislike for him doesn't come out of nowhere.



While I really, really like what they added to the Tywin/Arya scenes it makes me angry because I don't want to like this Tywin. It's troublesome because due to the actor I kept seeing Vetinari in Tywin and then got disappointed by how he turned out to be and now I know I will be even more disappointed unless they make more changes to him in the third season (and fourth).

[Weezer]

While I really, really like what they added to the Tywin/Arya scenes it makes me angry because I don't want to like this Tywin. It's troublesome because due to the actor I kept seeing Vetinari in Tywin and then got disappointed by how he turned out to be and now I know I will be even more disappointed unless they make more changes to him in the third season (and fourth).

They certainly made him a lot more likeable and more 'human', which in the long run could turn out good or bad and if it continues will definitely change the reception of a certain bathroom scene. I definitely love the character, acting and writing for Tywin, but I'm not sure how the new characterization will fit in with later events.

[mangosta71]

I think the shift in perception (for Cersei in particular, but other characters as well) is that TV doesn't let us get inside the characters' heads the way the books do. To continue the Cersei example, the major POV from which we observe her in book 1 is Ned. In book 2, it's Tyrion (with some Sansa mixed in in both books). Neither of the major characters is kindly disposed to her, and Sansa's positive reactions early on are shown to be the naive illusions of a stupid child - it's immediately obvious from the other POV that Cersei is putting up a front to manipulate her. Of course we hate her after reading those two books - the people through which we experience her hate her.

TV can only show us what the characters do and say. The books show us their motivations and the feelings they can't express. Because of that, I feel like the book characters are more fleshed out, more human, more relatable, etc.

[Brother Oni]

TV can only show us what the characters do and say. The books show us their motivations and the feelings they can't express. Because of that, I feel like the book characters are more fleshed out, more human, more relatable, etc.

While true, there's so much more the book has to state due to the lack of body language and other such non-verbal clues.

For example, compare this scene in the book:



"And to Rhaego, son of Drogo, the stallion who will mount the world, to him I also pledge a gift. To him I will give this iron chair his mother's father sat in. I will give him Seven Kingdoms. I, Drogo, khal, will do this thing." His voice rose, and he lifted his fist to the sky. "I will take my khalasar west to where the world ends, and ride the wooden horses across the black salt water as no khal as done before. I will kill the men in the iron suits and tear down their stone houses. I will rape their women, take their children, and bring their broken gods back to Vaes Dothrak to bow down beneath the Mother of Mountains. This I vow, I, Drogo son of Bharbo. This I swear before the Mother of the Mountains, as the stars look down in witness.

to the same scene in the TV series (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyqKWROjrq4&feature=player_detailpage#t=91s).

The scene in the book doesn't capture any of the sheer aggression or physicality that Jason Momoa puts into the scene, not to mention the harshness of the Dothraki constructed language adding to the tone.

The whole Daenerys and Jorah relationship is another one as well - (spoiler for beginning of book 3) You only have to see the way he looks at her to know his feelings towards her (well done by Iain Glen there), but it's not obvious in the books until he kisses her on the ship.

[mangosta71]

I didn't have any trouble seeing Drogo's passion in my mind when I read this passage.

I strongly suspected Jorah's attraction to Dany in book 1. Book 2 made it more clear, and book 3 was basically GRRM hitting anyone that hadn't caught on to it yet with a sledgehammer of obvious.

[Brother Oni]

I didn't have any trouble seeing Drogo's passion in my mind when I read this passage.

Earlier in the scene, Drogo was very quiet from the news of the poison attempt and spoke only after a long while, hence I read it in a cold clinical way, rather than the alpha male vow of fury depicted in the series.
Different people, different interpretations.



I strongly suspected Jorah's attraction to Dany in book 1. Book 2 made it more clear, and book 3 was basically GRRM hitting anyone that hadn't caught on to it yet with a sledgehammer of obvious.

Again, just because it's obvious to you, doesn't mean it's that way to everybody else. It took the sledgehammer for me.

[INDYSTAR188]

For my part I will be excited to see what direction the show continues to go in. I have read all the books available two times or so and I am not disappointed in changes made in the show. I really love the books but it's pretty awesome to have a visual comparison.

Book 3 Spoilers:
I'm really dreading the Red Wedding. It is so hard for me to READ let alone WATCH! The North Remembers!

I wonder if the exclusion of Jeyne Westerling-Stark from the show kills some of the conspiracy theories you hear in some of the forums?

[Anderlith]

For my part I will be excited to see what direction the show continues to go in. I have read all the books available two times or so and I am not disappointed in changes made in the show. I really love the books but it's pretty awesome to have a visual comparison.

Book 3 Spoilers:
I'm really dreading the Red Wedding. It is so hard for me to READ let alone WATCH! The North Remembers!

I wonder if the exclusion of Jeyne Westerling-Stark from the show kills some of the conspiracy theories you hear in some of the forums?

I actually liked it, I was waiting so long for Cat to be killed off... only to see her pop back up at the end. /sigh, you can't have everything

[WitchSlayer]

My question is will we get to see the Brotherhood without Banners and Thoros of Myr this season. I'm afraid they're going to leave a lot of that stuff out.

[Dienekes]

I actually liked it, I was waiting so long for Cat to be killed off... only to see her pop back up at the end. /sigh, you can't have everything

You are a monster. The North will have its vengeance.

[TheSummoner]

My question is will we get to see the Brotherhood without Banners and Thoros of Myr this season. I'm afraid they're going to leave a lot of that stuff out.

Yes. We are going to see the brotherhood. You can see...
The Hound dueling Lord Beric...in the trailer.

Here's a list of new cast members from Wikipedia. Minor spoilers.
Jacob Anderson as Grey Worm, a eunuch soldier, captain of the "Unsullied"
Mackenzie Crook as Orell Skinchanger, a Wildling
Richard Dormer as Beric Dondarrion, the leader of the "Brotherhood Without Banners". Dondarrion, played by David Michael Scott, briefly appeared in the first season's episode "A Golden Crown".
Nathalie Emmanuel as Missandei, a Naathi servant of Daenerys Targaryen
Tara Fitzgerald as Selyse (Florent) Baratheon, Stannis Baratheon's wife. Selyse, played by an unnamed extra, briefly appeared in the second season's first episode, "The North Remembers".
Dan Hildebrand as Kraznys mo Naklaz, a wealthy slaver of the Ghiscari city of Astapor.
Kristofer Hivju as Tormund Giantsbane, a Wildling raider
Ciarán Hinds as Mance Rayder, the Wildling "King-Beyond-The-Wall".
Kerry Ingram as Shireen Baratheon, the daughter of Stannis and Selyse
Paul Kaye as Thoros of Myr, a red priest with the "Brotherhood Without Banners"
Anton Lesser as Qyburn, a former maester of the Citadel
Philip McGinley as Anguy, an archer with the "Brotherhood Without Banners"
Tobias Menzies as Edmure Tully, Catelyn Stark's brother
Diana Rigg as Olenna (Redwyne) Tyrell, the "Queen of Thorns", Margaery and Loras Tyrell's grandmother
Iwan Rheon as "Boy"
Clive Russell as Brynden Tully, the "Blackfish", Catelyn's uncle
Thomas Sangster as Jojen Reed and Ellie Kendrick as Meera Reed, two young Crannogman siblings, children of Howland Reed, a Stark bannerman
Ed Skrein as Daario Naharis, a Tyroshi mercenary captain
Ramon Tikaram as Prendahl ze Ghezn, captain of the 'Stormcrows' mercenary company
On that list are a few characters from the brotherhood.

Edit: For some reason I found it hilarious that the season 3 trailer came on while I was typing this.

[WitchSlayer]

The guy whose playing Thoros seems a little... handsomer than I expected.

[INDYSTAR188]

I actually liked it, I was waiting so long for Cat to be killed off... only to see her pop back up at the end. /sigh, you can't have everything

I'm really surprised that you said that. You must be a big fan of Bolton, Frey, Lannister, Clegane, and Greyjoy.

While she wasn't my favorite POV I thought that Robb and Blackfish were going to be around for a much longer time. Mostly because I found it hard to believe that Eddard and Robb would both be killed off.

[Anderlith]

No, I really liked the Young Wolf, & Jeyne, & the Blackfish. I just hate Catlyn & all the Tullys except for the Blackfish (who, IMO doesn't count as a Tully) The Tullys & Littlefinger cause the war, & continually make things worse every time they involve themselves. (i.e. Edmure & the fords)


-Also, I hate the Boltons, & Cercei. Redeemed Jamie & Theon I can understand & respect, so I kind of like them. & I love the Hound, he's a great character

[Dienekes]

My opinions on Cat, and other things

You see I respect Catelyn. She tries, oh she's wrong a lot, and when she is right she is completely ignored (No Robb, King in the North is not a good idea. And no, Robb, Balon Greyjoy is not someone you should send Theon to). But she does the best with the information she has available to her. If you knew someone had attempted to kill your child, would you sit back and do nothing? No, you go out and try to solve the problem. Of course, it turns out that played right into her enemies hands, but I still give her points for effort. If you think that the Lannisters, a known power hungry family had tried to kill your family and you see one on the road, alone. And not just one, the worst one, the one with a reputation so foul his nickname means little devil. You have a split second to make a decision, and I think she chose correctly. Now, it turns out her information was bad, and the Imp's reputation was ill deserved, but we know that not her. So yeah, is she my favorite character? No, of course not. But I try not to hold it against a character for not being omnipotent or just being wrong.

As for the other Tully's, Lysa is crazy, Edmund is admittedly rather (completely) useless. And honestly I never quite understood the love of Blackfish, he had a cool name that was it. He never seemed to actually do anything. That was until he told off Jaime, God that was satisfying. I just wish it was longer, maybe an entire rant. I cannot wait for that scene.

Now on the other hand, I couldn't give two cents for "Redeemed" Jaime, who as far as I am concerned is still an attempted child murdering jackass who has never shown any active signs of repentance, or even admit that he did anything wrong. He just decided, 'hey I'm gonna try to not do that stuff as much.' And as for Theon, he murdered two children just so he looked tough. No, I don't feel sorry for him in the slightest.

Also, Anderlith, you might want to spoil some of that. It doesn't give much away but it does heavily point towards a few events that those watching the show wouldn't know.

Now to casting info
Yes the Queen of Thorns! You better keep her as funny as she is in the book, writers. Do not do what you did to poor Dolorous Ed to her.
Also, Julius ****ing Caesar is the King Beyond the Wall! Hoo yeah!

[mangosta71]

Earlier in the scene, Drogo was very quiet from the news of the poison attempt and spoke only after a long while, hence I read it in a cold clinical way, rather than the alpha male vow of fury depicted in the series.
Different people, different interpretations.
"Cold clinical" does not equate to dispassionate.

When I get really bad news, I typically go cold and calculating while I register what exactly it means, then start to seethe with barely contained rage. It's not less passionate just because I'm not running around, beating my chest and screaming in fury; it's merely less obvious from an outside observer. As I was seeing it from inside his head (well, Dany's POV, but she understands him well enough to see exactly how he feels by this point), I didn't need those physical displays to know his passion. I saw a reflection of myself, swearing a vow of vengeance with ice. HBO Drogo swore with fire.

Here's a list of new cast members from Wikipedia. Minor spoilers.
Perhaps more spoilers than you intended, if that's a complete list. The absence of certain characters tells those of us who are rereading the books where the season ends.

But then, I can't see how some members of the Brotherhood are on the list while others that appear at the same time aren't if the list is complete unless those characters were cut.

Dammit, I wish GRRM would work on the books. At the rate he's going even if he gets another 10 seasons out of what's already written I won't find out what happens next until HBO shows it. :smallfurious:

[TheSummoner]

Never claimed it was a full list. Just a list of characters who have been revealed and that Wikipedia knows about.

[Weezer]

The guy whose playing Thoros seems a little... handsomer than I expected.

They'll get him to match with makeup and costuming. They seemed to do a good job with the actress who plays Brienne, in her non-show pictures she's downright pretty but she works as Brienne, though probably not quite as ugly as the book makes her out to be.

[Brother Oni]

"Cold clinical" does not equate to dispassionate.

However these traits are often associated with being dispassionate.

I'm just saying that the series offers one interpretation of the books, which with the aid of inflection and body language, helps some people understand the motivations and emotions of the characters.

I personally have trouble picking up implicit clues in text due to the way I read (scanning at speed). I can tell you who did what and with whom, but I can't tell you why unless it's explicitly stated or I read it at a much slower pace (which I don't have time for).

It's like the difference between reading a Shakespearean play and watching it performed - reading a character asking "Do you bite your thumb at me?" is much different from seeing it acted out and realising "oh crap, somebody's going to get stabbed in a minute".

[Weezer]

However these traits are often associated with being dispassionate.

I'm just saying that the series offers one interpretation of the books, which with the aid of inflection and body language, helps some people understand the motivations and emotions of the characters.

I personally have trouble picking up implicit clues in text due to the way I read (scanning at speed). I can tell you who did what and with whom, but I can't tell you why unless it's explicitly stated or I read it at a much slower pace (which I don't have time for).

It's like the difference between reading a Shakespearean play and watching it performed - reading a character asking "Do you bite your thumb at me?" is much different from seeing it acted out and realising "oh crap, somebody's going to get stabbed in a minute".

Why not read slower, read less books but actually get all the book can offer. When you're missing everything that's not a sledghammer, why even bother reading?

[INDYSTAR188]

Why not read slower, read less books but actually get all the book can offer. When you're missing everything that's not a sledghammer, why even bother reading?

I think that's sound advice but we all learn and interact with stuff differently. I find myself reading and using my imagination to visualize what's going on but I struggle with casting characters to a unique voice (that's why I like audio books).

[Anderlith]

However these traits are often associated with being dispassionate.

I'm just saying that the series offers one interpretation of the books, which with the aid of inflection and body language, helps some people understand the motivations and emotions of the characters.

I personally have trouble picking up implicit clues in text due to the way I read (scanning at speed). I can tell you who did what and with whom, but I can't tell you why unless it's explicitly stated or I read it at a much slower pace (which I don't have time for).

It's like the difference between reading a Shakespearean play and watching it performed - reading a character asking "Do you bite your thumb at me?" is much different from seeing it acted out and realising "oh crap, somebody's going to get stabbed in a minute".

I can understand that some. I know that if something trivial happens, in between lots of dialogue I'm bound to miss it because my brain automatically filters out "she said" or "he told" or any verb describing speech, if something happens that's less than three or so words I'll read over it thinking its pointless if I'm not careful. Best thing to do is read slower.

[Anderlith]

My opinions on Cat, and other things

You see I respect Catelyn. She tries, oh she's wrong a lot, and when she is right she is completely ignored (No Robb, King in the North is not a good idea. And no, Robb, Balon Greyjoy is not someone you should send Theon to). But she does the best with the information she has available to her. If you knew someone had attempted to kill your child, would you sit back and do nothing? No, you go out and try to solve the problem. Of course, it turns out that played right into her enemies hands, but I still give her points for effort. If you think that the Lannisters, a known power hungry family had tried to kill your family and you see one on the road, alone. And not just one, the worst one, the one with a reputation so foul his nickname means little devil. You have a split second to make a decision, and I think she chose correctly. Now, it turns out her information was bad, and the Imp's reputation was ill deserved, but we know that not her. So yeah, is she my favorite character? No, of course not. But I try not to hold it against a character for not being omnipotent or just being wrong.

As for the other Tully's, Lysa is crazy, Edmund is admittedly rather (completely) useless. And honestly I never quite understood the love of Blackfish, he had a cool name that was it. He never seemed to actually do anything. That was until he told off Jaime, God that was satisfying. I just wish it was longer, maybe an entire rant. I cannot wait for that scene.

Now on the other hand, I couldn't give two cents for "Redeemed" Jaime, who as far as I am concerned is still an attempted child murdering jackass who has never shown any active signs of repentance, or even admit that he did anything wrong. He just decided, 'hey I'm gonna try to not do that stuff as much.' And as for Theon, he murdered two children just so he looked tough. No, I don't feel sorry for him in the slightest.

Also, Anderlith, you might want to spoil some of that. It doesn't give much away but it does heavily point towards a few events that those watching the show wouldn't know.

Now to casting info
Yes the Queen of Thorns! You better keep her as funny as she is in the book, writers. Do not do what you did to poor Dolorous Ed to her.
Also, Julius ****ing Caesar is the King Beyond the Wall! Hoo yeah!

My reasons for liking Jaime is that, he tried to do the what he thought was right when killing Aerys. No one knew about Aerys plan to burn King's Landing to ash, & after he killed the king everyone held it against him. Jaime had no honor, he didn't even try to be honorable. But after his hand is cut off he realizes just how pathetic he was before then. All he was, was a swordsman, a killer. Now that the easy option for him is removed he acts with honor. Like the saying in the Bible "And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell" This is literally that. He's a reverse Lancelot. A corrupt & evil knight, screws the queen, & then changes to be a better person

[Brother Oni]

Why not read slower, read less books but actually get all the book can offer. When you're missing everything that's not a sledghammer, why even bother reading?

It's very hard to unlearn habits - I'm a scientist by training and trade and one of the first things you learn is the ability to scan through vast amounts of text to dig out relevant data.
I tend to read more straightforward books like military history which doesn't try to obsfucate character motivations or events, much like (good) scientific reports and articles.

With the amount of free time I have at the moment (full time job, father of two, buying, renovating and moving home), I simply don't have the luxury or the inclincation to read slowly (I'd probably be somewhere towards the end of the first book instead of midway through the fourth) and if I'm reading for my own pleasure, shouldn't I be allowed to read at whatever pace I like?

In any case, there's nothing stopping me from re-reading the books again at a slower pace, which is something I tend to do once I have a framework of the story in place.

[pita]

Well, Tyrion certainly got some of his best moments in book 3... Though as they're splitting it between seasons 3 and 4, you'll have to wait a season for half of those moments.

More than half. He did his best work at the end of Storm of Swords.
Who said "I'm going to light the biggest fire the north has ever seen"? He looked ridiculously familiar.

[Weezer]

More than half. He did his best work at the end of Storm of Swords.
Who said "I'm going to light the biggest fire the north has ever seen"? He looked ridiculously familiar.

That was Mance Rayder played by Ciaran Hinds (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001354/). You might recognize him from There Will be Blood, Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, Rome (he was Caesar), and a whole bunch of other movies. He has been in a lot.

[pita]

Holy ****balls, that is Ciaran Hinds. He's absolutely brilliant in everything (He was even the best part in The Debt, and he had maybe four minutes of screen time, most of which was without lines), and I can't believe they got him to play Mance Rayder. He looks absolutely nothing like who I pictured in my head (I kind of pictured the guy who plays Dolorous Edd).
That's incredible casting news.
From what they show of Jon, they're really going to have to puff up what he does in season 4, unless they're also going to include parts of AFFC and ADWD into it so they they don't have to mess up season 5.

[TheSummoner]

I would hope the show covers Feast and Dance together since they happen during the same time period. GRRM might've thought a perspective split was better for the books, but for TV I can't see it working at all.

Also, I've been rereading the books and I just started Storm. Can't wait for the Queen of Thorns. She's gonna be played by Diana Rigg, the only Bond girl 007 ever married.

[Bling Cat]

I would hope the show covers Feast and Dance together since they happen during the same time period. GRRM might've thought a perspective split was better for the books, but for TV I can't see it working at all.


The perspective split 'worked' for the books in a purely mechanical sense, by which I mean it meant that there weren't far too many different plot lines and POV characters to keep track of in a single book, the only failing of book four was that the characters in it weren't doing anything particularly exciting.

The TV show will almost certainly do both at once. Can you imagine ending season four on what I imagine they end season four on and then not see Tyrion for a whole season? It wouldn't work at all for TV. This is why I imagine we'll be seeing something of Theon Greyjoy in seasons three and four, despite him not being present in book three, because it's very hard for a character to just drop off the map like that in television.

[TheSummoner]

The TV show will almost certainly do both at once. Can you imagine ending season four on what I imagine they end season four on and then not see [Edited out] for a whole season? It wouldn't work at all for TV. This is why I imagine we'll be seeing something of Theon Greyjoy in seasons three and four, despite him not being present in book three, because it's very hard for a character to just drop off the map like that in television.

Hmm... I agree, but how they'd handle it is a tough one... And one I REALLY want to speculate on now that you put the idea in my head. TO THE SPOILER TAGS!!!
Biggest problem is that Theon really didn't do much between the sacking of Winterfell and Dance. Without writing in an entirely new plotline, the best they have to work with is a few scenes spread across the season of torture and maybe his escape attempt where Ramsay named his dog Kyra.

If they DID try to write something in, then the problem is that it can't really affect the overall plot and would ultimately be a pointless timesink.

Another thing you brought up... How do you see the timeline for the next few seasons playing out? I would say...
Season 3 - Start of Storm until Red Wedding and immediate aftermath (Episode 9 is called "The Rains of Castamere" so how can that episode be anything else?). Daenerys's plotline probably ending after Astapor, possibly with a cliffhanger for Yunkai (which unless they change weill be a bit of an anticlimax but I cant see them getting to Meereen and having enough left for season 4)
Season 4 - The rest of Storm

After that it gets difficult though... Where would they end the Feast/Dance storyline for season 5? I cant imagine them covering BOTH books in a single season, especially when Storm is going to take 2 seasons in and of itself. I really don't know...

[Bling Cat]

Hmm... I agree, but how they'd handle it is a tough one... And one I REALLY want to speculate on now that you put the idea in my head. TO THE SPOILER TAGS!!!
Biggest problem is that Theon really didn't do much between the sacking of Winterfell and Dance. Without writing in an entirely new plotline, the best they have to work with is a few scenes spread across the season of torture and maybe his escape attempt where Ramsay named his dog Kyra.

If they DID try to write something in, then the problem is that it can't really affect the overall plot and would ultimately be a pointless timesink.

Another thing you brought up... How do you see the timeline for the next few seasons playing out? I would say...
Season 3 - Start of Storm until Red Wedding and immediate aftermath (Episode 9 is called "The Rains of Castamere" so how can that episode be anything else?). Daenerys's plotline probably ending after Astapor, possibly with a cliffhanger for Yunkai (which unless they change weill be a bit of an anticlimax but I cant see them getting to Meereen and having enough left for season 4)
Season 4 - The rest of Storm

After that it gets difficult though... Where would they end the Feast/Dance storyline for season 5? I cant imagine them covering BOTH books in a single season, especially when Storm is going to take 2 seasons in and of itself. I really don't know...

Concerning Theon

The way I see it, he wont appear every episode, maybe two or three spaced out evenly across the season. They have a bit of torture, set up Ramsay Snow as a nasty piece of work, and have him preparing for the escape attempt in his last appearance. Something like meeting the girl or digging with a spoon or something, whatever they do to get across that he's trying to fight back. Season four details his preparations for the escape attempt, and then our final look at him is it failing and him being dragged back to the Dreadfort.

I could be wrong, and they might choose to keep him back for season five, where we have the shock reveal of a broken Theon, or possibly the mystery of who this new Reek character is, but I think they run too much of a risk of the TV audience forgetting who the hell he is by that point, especially considering the huge amount of characters in play at any one time.

Incidentally, the actor playing Theon hasn't read the books. I find this delicious.

Concerning timelines

I'm thinking purely in terms of finales here, but even though The Red Wedding occurs past the halfway point of Storm, if I was a writer on the show I would not want to miss out on the possibility to end a season with that scene. I feel like they might want to end on highs in the other plot lines though, to balance out the total and crushing despair the audience will feel after TRW and the deaths of so many important characters. They might end Dany's story in season three on her conquest of Yunkai, with all the people chanting 'Mother', to counterbalance the low. I also remember Yunkai being the point where I decided Daenerys was really cool, so I might be biased. I don't think anyone else has anything major happening to them at those moments, so we might see some timelines getting rearranged, but I think TRW will probably provide enough for a season finale assuming they go that route.

Seaon four will, as you say, obviously be the rest of Storm, but again, if I was a writer, I wouldn't pass up the chance to end on a shot of Tyrion shooting Tywin. I can't remember if that's the last chapter in Storm, hold on let me check-

-Alright, I was totally wrong, they're going to have dramatic twist overload in the season four finale. You have Tyrion shooting Tywin, Littlefinger revealing that he and Lysa killed Jon Arryn, then killing Lysa, and the reveal of Un-Cat. I don't even know which of those you end on.

Season five is an interesting one, because due to the slower world buildery nature of Feast and Dance, I can't think of a dramatic point to end on. I'll go have a look at Dance to see if one occurs, because god knows Feast wont have any-

-Alright, they might end on either Tyrion getting captured by Ser Jorah, or on him getting enslaved. Either of those might work. The others have very flowing storylines, Jon is busy working out stuff with the Wildlings and the Night's watch, Daenerys is busy being all incomptent at ruling a hostile city, Davos is sitting in a dungeon, Arya has precious few chapters across both books and not many of them lend themselves to a finale, except her last one, which obviously can't be the central finale of either season. Brienne is busy wandering boringly, Cersei just steadily screws more things up. Hmm. They might end on a shot of the Tower of the Hand being burned? And Samwell Tarly is busy being Samwell Tarly. I'm honestly interestd to see how they split seasons five and six up, because it's not immediately obvious to me.

[Kato]

On Theon.

It would be a shame of they didnt keep his survival hidden just because stupid viewers might forget about him. (Talk about catering to the lowest common demoninator) Okay, I guess they'll give it away ANYWAY because Theon will stay in the cast whenever it's published but I'll just keep hoping they'll keep it hidden for as long as possible, maybe even when he is Reek for a bit with poor lighting/lots of make-up/whatever. But I'm not putting any money on it.


Not sure how Season three will develop... I guess there is the obvious cliffhanger/mid-book finale. It'd be a surprise if they don't use that.

[Selrahc]

On Theon.

It would be a shame of they didnt keep his survival hidden just because stupid viewers might forget about him. (Talk about catering to the lowest common demoninator) Okay, I guess they'll give it away ANYWAY because Theon will stay in the cast whenever it's published but I'll just keep hoping they'll keep it hidden for as long as possible, maybe even when he is Reek for a bit with poor lighting/lots of make-up/whatever. But I'm not putting any money on it.




Given that the show has had a firm "No flashbacks" policy... I think they really almost have to show the transformation of Theon into Reek. The majority of the Reek chapters in ADwD include extensive flashbacks to the torture that created him and informs his every action. If we never get to see that it diminishes the character.

[Kato]

Given that the show has had a firm "No flashbacks" policy... I think they really almost have to show the transformation of Theon into Reek. The majority of the Reek chapters in ADwD include extensive flashbacks to the torture that created him and informs his every action. If we never get to see that it diminishes the character.


Hm... while I think a "no flashbacks" policy is stupid and obviously the torture is necessary... well, they could show torture but only hint at who is tortured if they really feel they have to?
As I said, I'm sure they won't do it the way I like so...



Also, because it's kind of relevant, this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY6dvlMfntw)

[Dienekes]

My reasons for liking Jaime is that, he tried to do the what he thought was right when killing Aerys. No one knew about Aerys plan to burn King's Landing to ash, & after he killed the king everyone held it against him. Jaime had no honor, he didn't even try to be honorable. But after his hand is cut off he realizes just how pathetic he was before then. All he was, was a swordsman, a killer. Now that the easy option for him is removed he acts with honor. Like the saying in the Bible "And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell" This is literally that. He's a reverse Lancelot. A corrupt & evil knight, screws the queen, & then changes to be a better person

I somehow missed this for nearly a week, but it's still on the last page so I guess I can respond.

The reasons I don't like Jaime have absolutely nothing to do with Aerys. Well, not with the murder part anyway. I'm certain everyone here is on his side on that front. No what his problem was is that he didn't tell anyone the reasons for what he did, and expected that they just knew. If he would explain that Aerys was going to destroy the entire city, and that he needed to protect the people inside I'm willing to bet that he would have been seen in a much more favorable light. Sure the Eddard Stark's of the world wouldn't have liked him regardless, but the townspeople? Those with a less rigid faith in the oath system? He'd be a hero. But he doesn't tell anyone and then pouts when people call him out for being exactly what he looked like, a coward who killed his king when it looked like it would save his own skin.

And even if he was still looked down upon, that does not excuse anything what he did and tried to do after the Aerys affair. He threw a child out of a window with the intention of murdering him. Was about to murder the next king because of convenience, and half of his problems occur because he can't keep it in his pants. Sorry, for that I have no pity for the guy at all. Yes, he is now trying to be better. Good for him, he is now acting like a normal guy. Not a great guy, or a nice guy, or anything that would be considered good. But a normal guy. Hell, he won't even admit what he did was wrong. So redeemed? Not by a long shot. I'm willing to say maybe he'll get there, maybe, but as of now, no.

Take a similar character, the Hound. Killed a peasant boy on orders, and I'd say has had a lot rougher a time than Jaime has. While I greatly enjoy the character, I actually like him a lot, he was another I pegged as fairly monstrous. But if it's true that he's turning his life around in the monastery I do have some hope that he actually became a good person, and not just no longer a murderer.

Now let he add this caveat. He's a great character to read. I enjoy his chapters very much, and his sense of humor is amusing. But enjoyable, to me, is not at all equivalent to likeable or good.


Also, because it's kind of relevant, this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY6dvlMfntw)

Well, huh, that was certainly a thing.

[TheSummoner]

I
The reasons I don't like Jaime have absolutely nothing to do with Aerys. Well, not with the murder part anyway. I'm certain everyone here is on his side on that front. No what his problem was is that he didn't tell anyone the reasons for what he did, and expected that they just knew. If he would explain that Aerys was going to destroy the entire city, and that he needed to protect the people inside I'm willing to bet that he would have been seen in a much more favorable light. Sure the Eddard Stark's of the world wouldn't have liked him regardless, but the townspeople? Those with a less rigid faith in the oath system? He'd be a hero. But he doesn't tell anyone and then pouts when people call him out for being exactly what he looked like, a coward who killed his king when it looked like it would save his own skin.

I'm going to say that if he had done that it would've went over about as well as when Stannis sent out those letters telling everyone that Joffrey was an incest-spawned bastard monstrosity. All of those things are true, both individually and in any combination of "incest-spawned" "bastard" and "monstrosity" you choose to use, but without proof it just sounds like a self-serving lie.

[Anderlith]

I somehow missed this for nearly a week, but it's still on the last page so I guess I can respond.

The reasons I don't like Jaime have absolutely nothing to do with Aerys. Well, not with the murder part anyway. I'm certain everyone here is on his side on that front. No what his problem was is that he didn't tell anyone the reasons for what he did, and expected that they just knew. If he would explain that Aerys was going to destroy the entire city, and that he needed to protect the people inside I'm willing to bet that he would have been seen in a much more favorable light. Sure the Eddard Stark's of the world wouldn't have liked him regardless, but the townspeople? Those with a less rigid faith in the oath system? He'd be a hero. But he doesn't tell anyone and then pouts when people call him out for being exactly what he looked like, a coward who killed his king when it looked like it would save his own skin.

And even if he was still looked down upon, that does not excuse anything what he did and tried to do after the Aerys affair. He threw a child out of a window with the intention of murdering him. Was about to murder the next king because of convenience, and half of his problems occur because he can't keep it in his pants. Sorry, for that I have no pity for the guy at all. Yes, he is now trying to be better. Good for him, he is now acting like a normal guy. Not a great guy, or a nice guy, or anything that would be considered good. But a normal guy. Hell, he won't even admit what he did was wrong. So redeemed? Not by a long shot. I'm willing to say maybe he'll get there, maybe, but as of now, no.

Take a similar character, the Hound. Killed a peasant boy on orders, and I'd say has had a lot rougher a time than Jaime has. While I greatly enjoy the character, I actually like him a lot, he was another I pegged as fairly monstrous. But if it's true that he's turning his life around in the monastery I do have some hope that he actually became a good person, and not just no longer a murderer.

Now let he add this caveat. He's a great character to read. I enjoy his chapters very much, and his sense of humor is amusing. But enjoyable, to me, is not at all equivalent to likeable or good.



Well, huh, that was certainly a thing.

Well I would say the Jaime, (though the whole relationship is ****ed up) only did what he did for love of his sister-lover. Like I was saying earlier, the fact that his martial ability is so tied to his identity is a major factor. He only does what he was told to do, kill people, act like a Lannister, join the Kingsguard to be with his sister, etc. He knows that his honor is gone after the Aerys affair. He doesn't feel like he should explain himself. He did the right thing, why should he have to make excuses, or list his reasons? Only after his martial ability is gone can he actually figure out who he is. He was born & bred to be a sword, manipulated by his sister, he needed to be striped of those influences to even begin to become his own person.

(Btw When did he try to kill Robert?)

[TheSummoner]

He didn't actually try, but he said he would if word got out him and Cersei

[Dienekes]

I'm going to say that if he had done that it would've went over about as well as when Stannis sent out those letters telling everyone that Joffrey was an incest-spawned bastard monstrosity. All of those things are true, both individually and in any combination of "incest-spawned" "bastard" and "monstrosity" you choose to use, but without proof it just sounds like a self-serving lie.

In this case, saying the truth could not have hurt his appearance at all. He already looks like a self-serving, double-cross, coward. There was no reason not to explain his actions except for his own pride. Also he claims to after the whole affair to have gone hunting down everyone involved, killing them, and getting rid of the alchemists fire. He has proof right there, still doesn't tell anyone.


Well I would say the Jaime, (though the whole relationship is ****ed up) only did what he did for love of his sister-lover. Like I was saying earlier, the fact that his martial ability is so tied to his identity is a major factor. He only does what he was told to do, kill people, act like a Lannister, join the Kingsguard to be with his sister, etc. He knows that his honor is gone after the Aerys affair. He doesn't feel like he should explain himself. He did the right thing, why should he have to make excuses, or list his reasons? Only after his martial ability is gone can he actually figure out who he is. He was born & bred to be a sword, manipulated by his sister, he needed to be striped of those influences to even begin to become his own person.

(Btw When did he try to kill Robert?)

You give reasons because other people have opinions. If you don't want to explain fine, don't explain. But then don't blame everyone else for your lot in life for treating you bad when you never gave them a single reason to treat you otherwise. But he wants to have it both ways, he wants to be treated with the respect he thinks he deserves for his glorious act, he complains about how unfair it all was all the time, and mocks those who don't give him that respect. But can't seem to grasp that in order for people to understand what he did, he will have to tell them what he did.

Flashback memory scene of when he was banging his sister over Robert's drunk body and he thought if the king would wake up he'd just kill him. Because you know, it would be too damn hard to walk to the next room.

[Iruka]

Also, because it's kind of relevant, this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY6dvlMfntw)

This is hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

[blackspeeker]

Flashback memory scene of when he was banging his sister over Robert's drunk body and he thought if the king would wake up he'd just kill him. Because you know, it would be too damn hard to walk to the next room.

From my understanding, Robert was a philanderer what with all the bastards he sired. So while it would have been easy enough to move, they dealt him a greater insult by cuckolding him right on top of him.

Its sort of a disgusting game of one upsmanship, you insult my sister with bastards, I upset you by doing the dirty at any moment.

[Dienekes]

From my understanding, Robert was a philanderer what with all the bastards he sired. So while it would have been easy enough to move, they dealt him a greater insult by cuckolding him right on top of him.

Its sort of a disgusting game of one upsmanship, you insult my sister with bastards, I upset you by doing the dirty at any moment.

Oh I know why he did it (the too hard to move comment was what passes for a joke with me), and agree with you on all counts. However, just because they have a reason, a purely emotional reason, for doing something stupid doesn't make it any less stupid.

[Weezer]

Oh I know why he did it (the too hard to move comment was what passes for a joke with me), and agree with you on all counts. However, just because they have a reason, a purely emotional reason, for doing something stupid doesn't make it any less stupid.

But having characters do stupid thing you can understand them doing rather than just random stupid stuff is what makes good writing different from bad writing.

[Dienekes]

I also never said or meant to imply it was bad writing. I said I felt the character did something stupid and handwaved his stupidity away with "if I'm caught, I'll just kill the guy." Jaime is a great character, just not a good one.

[pita]

I'm rereading Storm of Swords, and one thing I hope the show changes:
Catelyn.
I'm remembering how much I used to hate her until Michelle Fairley started portraying her. The woman is a brilliant actress who has worked miracles turning this character into someone you can not only relate to, but look up to.
But even she might be hard pressed to make Catelyn's reactions to people after freeing Jaime relatable. When people announce the fact that Jaime Lannister has escaped prison she's all "NO BUT NOW IT'S YOUR FAULT MY DAUGHTERS WILL DIE." She refuses to take any personal responsibility for her actions, while claiming she is by jailing herself. If I needed to write a perfectly douchey action for a character, I could do no better than copying and pasting from various Catelyn chapters and changing the names around. The show didn't have the "it should have been you" scene with her and Jon, though I think she could have pulled it off. They're going to have to pretty much write her out of the season if they're going to keep her likeable.

[TheSummoner]

One week now.

Re Catelyn:
I never found her that unlikable. Maybe it helps that I watched the first season before reading any of the books but I've seen her as being overall a good person, but flawed.

Her interactions with Jon Snow are a result of her being constantly reminded of Ned having slept with another woman. She cannot accept him. She does not have it in her to love the living reminder of Ned being unfaithful. "It should've been you" was a horrible thing to say, but the woman was half out of her mind with grief. Doesn't make it forgivable, but it does explain why she might say something so cruel.

[Kato]

Yeah, apart from her attitude towards Jon - which is pretty standard for many characters in such a situation - there is not much to hate about Cat that isn't a common trait for Ned as well... Than again, if you hate righteous stupid people, I can see why you would dislike her.

[pita]

Yeah, apart from her attitude towards Jon - which is pretty standard for many characters in such a situation - there is not much to hate about Cat that isn't a common trait for Ned as well... Than again, if you hate righteous stupid people, I can see why you would dislike her.

Her hatred for Jon I can excuse. Her constant abandonment of the people around her in favor of the people who aren't - That I can't.
When Bran gets thrown off a tower, she forsakes the rest of her family in order to stay next to his bed. When she's called out on it, she refuses to listen. Once she gets a grip on herself, she leaves her children again in order to tell her husband, essentially, that the Lannisters are evil. OMIGOD THE SPOILER ALERT
And in A Storm of Swords, she frees Jaime Lannister because of a promise Tyrion Lannister - Who she is in no position to trust, anyway - made in front of his court. And Jaime Lannister himself is a paragon of utter villainy as far as she knows. She betrays Robb, not for Sansa and Arya - but for a dream that maybe Sansa will be freed by Tyrion if Jaime and Brienne manage to reach King's Landing. And she gets offended when Robb dares tell his lords to recapture Jaime. I dislike her character because she's completely removed from the reality around her, and never aligns with it. There are tons of small moments where she shows complete disregard for other people, and when they react, her thoughts are "Other people are weak". Show Catelyn is a strong, intelligent woman. Book Catelyn is a step away from being Lysa. She's one of the only characters improved by becoming a psychotic revenge zombie.

[Dienekes]

My theory on Cat the good and the bad.
Now I've made a point of saying that I don't dislike Cat. She is by no way my favorite character, or even close to it. But I think for the most part she gives reasonable advise.

However her one constant flaw is that her brain turns off when her kids are in trouble. Telling Jon it should have been you was when Bran broke his spine, as was when she shut herself off from her family. Her release of Jaime literally happened directly after she found out that two of her sons were killed by Theon. Again, her brain turns off and she takes an insane gamble to save her remaining children. Now it's been awhile, so a lot of the small moments you mention I have no recollection for. But honestly, I can't find it in me to fault a character who breaks down when going through the crap Cat goes through. I don't hate her, I just pity her.

[Anderlith]

It's not just Cat, its the entire family line. Lysa is stark raving mad, Cat is completely deranged & emotionally unstable at best, Edmure is a colossal retard with an insecurity complex that he tries too hard to make up for with bravado. All of them lack critical thinking & long term judgement.

I don't pity them. They are all self-righteous idiots that singlehandedly cause the war. Lysa goes insane & lies about the Lannisters killing Jon Arryn. This sparks the open hostility between Wolf & Lion. Cat takes Tyrion hostage, this is a catalyst for the death of Robert Barratheon & the war itself. Edmure holds the fords against Tywin instead of just Riverrun, doesn't cause the war unlike his sisters, but it does cause the war to go badly for Stannis & Rob, if Tywin had been lured into the west Stannis would have had a better chance to take Kings Landing even with the wyldfire.

Edmure is the least terrible Tully, so hopefully his kid won't inherit the Tully gene for being insane & self-righteous. I wouldn't pity them if they all died.

The only exception to the Tully's are all bad rule is The Blackfish, who seems to be competent, though he is of course the outcast of his family so it would make sense that he doesn't suffer from the same derangement.

[Dienekes]

Spoilers because it's rude not to.


It's not just Cat, its the entire family line. Lysa is stark raving mad, Cat is completely deranged & emotionally unstable at best, Edmure is a colossal retard with an insecurity complex that he tries too hard to make up for with bravado. All of them lack critical thinking & long term judgement.

Agree on Lysa and Edmure. Though I'd say Lysa did not start the war herself. She played a part, but you have Littlefinger and Varys running around doing their thing. Also Cersei, Joffrey, and Jaime didn't help matters. You can even make a case for most of it being Ned's fault for how he responded to the situation in King's Landing. It's simply too complex a situation to lay the blame on one family. No matter what personal feelings we have for them. Trust me, I would absolutely love to find a way to twist all the evidence so that it relies solely on Cersei's head, but doing so would be painting with too broad a brush.


Edmure holds the fords against Tywin instead of just Riverrun, doesn't cause the war unlike his sisters, but it does cause the war to go badly for Stannis & Rob, if Tywin had been lured into the west Stannis would have had a better chance to take Kings Landing even with the wyldfire.

Honestly this one is Robb's fault. He should have told Edmure what his plan was instead of assuming that he'd stop when he was actually winning. Robb, love the guy, but he makes these kind of blunders a lot.


The only exception to the Tully's are all bad rule is The Blackfish, who seems to be competent, though he is of course the outcast of his family so it would make sense that he doesn't suffer from the same derangement.

I never really got the Blackfish love. He has a vaguely cool name, I guess? Honestly he doesn't actually do anything for the first few books.

Then he calls out Jaime though, and that was hilarious. I just wish that scene was longer and somehow everyone in Westeros could have born witness to it.

[mangosta71]

I don't blame Robb for expecting Edmure to follow the orders his liege lord gave him - that's a perfectly reasonable expectation for someone in his position to have. If the king explained the rationale behind every order, pretty soon he'd be spending all his time explaining and nothing would ever get done. I can sympathize with Edmure, because I'm naturally inquisitive and always demand to know why, but the fact that his king gave an order should have been enough, and he really screwed the pooch when he completely repulsed Tywin's advance.

I'm kinda torn on Cat. When she's calm she gives a lot of good advice, which I like. Then she gets irrational and does things that only make the situation worse for everyone, which drives me crazy. Doesn't help that the most irrational thing she does in the series is continue to explicitly trust Littlefinger despite all the evidence that he's scum.

Littlefinger is another one. I can admire clever manipulation and ruthlessness, but dear R'hllor the dude's a sleaze.

[TheSummoner]

Spoilers, people. We may have read the books but not everyone has.

Lysa was weak and deranged, but it was Littlefinger who started the war. He preyed on her weakness. She killed Jon Arryn and told Catelyn that the Lannisters did it because Littlefinger told her to.

Catelyn taking Tyrion hostage was a stupid move when you know everything that's going on. She didn't and acted on the information she had available. That being that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn and crippled Bran. And then the Imp, the worst one of the lot, calls her out in the middle of a crowded inn while she's trying to keep a low profile. Unfortunately her information was wrong and everyone suffered for it, but that's not her fault. And as stated before, she loses her head when her children are threatened, but I hardly blame her for that. You try going through half of what she did and keep your thoughts together.

@mangosta71 - When did Cat "continue to explicitly trust Littlefinger"? She only saw him once in King's landing and trusted him then because of their history. She had no evidence that he was scum then and didn't have any interaction with him afterwards.

Edmure's a bit of a failure, but his biggest failure was caused by the same thing that kept messing Catelyn up. Inaccurate or incomplete information. All he knew is that the enemy was trying to cross the river. Robb ordered him to hold Riverrun. Edmure held Riverrun. Robb did not order him to not engage the Lannisters. Edmure saw the Lannisters trying to cross the river and stopped them. He had no way of knowing it would've been for the better had they been allowed to cross. All he knew is they wanted to cross. So clearly as far as they knew, crossing would be a good thing. Anything good for the enemy is bad for you, so he stopped them. Robb shouldn't have to explain everything to everyone, but that's one he really should've explained.

[Anderlith]

Ignorance is not an excuse. Just because you do not know the repercussions of your actions does not absolve you of them. The whole family line shows more madness than the Targaryans. Just because Edmure needs every little thing to be spelled out for him so that he doesn't screw everything up, or that Cat is so ignorant of the ways of the world & lacks the competence to think of ramifications of her actions, this does not absolve them of their crimes (& they are crimes; disloyalty, failure to follow orders, release of a war criminal & a prisoner, sedition...) The House of Tully doesn't deserve pity, remorse or respect.

The Blackfish isn't necessarily a great guy, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that compared to his family, he is head & shoulders above them & an outcast for being better than they.

[TheSummoner]

Ignorance is not an excuse. Just because you do not know the repercussions of your actions does not absolve you of them. The whole family line shows more madness than the Targaryans. Just because Edmure needs every little thing to be spelled out for him so that he doesn't screw everything up, or that Cat is so ignorant of the ways of the world & lacks the competence to think of ramifications of her actions, this does not absolve them of their crimes (& they are crimes; disloyalty, failure to follow orders, release of a war criminal & a prisoner, sedition...) The House of Tully doesn't deserve pity, remorse or respect.

The Blackfish isn't necessarily a great guy, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that compared to his family, he is head & shoulders above them & an outcast for being better than they.

Did you really just compare a woman who tried to trade a war prisoner for her captive daughters and a man who acted on incomplete information to a guy who burned people alive and one who thought drinking wildfire would turn him into a dragon?

Ok, Edmure in particular. What would you have done? Your orders are to hold a castle. The enemy is trying to cross a river in your lands nearby. This is all you know. Do you just sit by and let the enemy cross? Let them march right through your lands, maybe taking some time to terrorize your people and raze your farmland?

[Anderlith]

Did you really just compare a woman who tried to trade a war prisoner for her captive daughters and a man who acted on incomplete information to a guy who burned people alive and one who thought drinking wildfire would turn him into a dragon?

Ok, Edmure in particular. What would you have done? Your orders are to hold a castle. The enemy is trying to cross a river in your lands nearby. This is all you know. Do you just sit by and let the enemy cross? Let them march right through your lands, maybe taking some time to terrorize your people and raze your farmland?

Yes to both accounts.

Following your line of reasoning...
Do you think Viserys was justified in his vitriol? In his obsessive hate, envy & impotence? Or Daenerys's obsessive envy, incompetence & disregard for people who care about her?

As for following orders, yes I would hold Riverrun wtihout taking the fords. In fact I would entice a siege so as to occupy the armies time before possibly attacking my liege lords rear whilst he was unaware. The riverlands had already been lost to chaos & war, Riverrun had already been previously besieged, the cost would have been low & the reward great. There is a reason there is a chain of command. Those too close to suffering can't make the rational decisions that will have lasting consequences.

[Kato]

Putting aside the issue of Edmure's strategic decision - which I think would require more detailed knowledge than we have about the situation and even then you ignore the point of a the responsibility of a lord towards his people.

I'll have to agree with Diekenes on Cat, for the most part. Nine out of ten stupid things she does happen because she is an over-obsessed mother, something that half the mother characters in fiction have in common. The term "deranged & emtionally unstable" is about as inaccurate as the comparison to the Targaryens. Okay, Lysa is either at the edge of clinical insanity (or beyond that, possibly, which raises the question whether an insane person can be called a "self-righteous idiot who singlehandedly caused the war" (or more accurately "was Littlefinger's tool in causing the war").
Yeah, Cat suffers from a bunch of flawes but your hatred for the Tully's is while not entirely unjustified greatly exaggerated in comparison to their actual actions to the point of disregarding facts fo the sake of making them worse than they are.

[pita]

If she were an over-obsessed mother, I'd understand it. My problem is that everything she does is at the expense of the child she can actually help.
She abandons Rickon and Robb in favor of Bran. She abandons Bran in favor of Ned. And she betrays Robb in what she percieves as favor of Sansa and Arya, but is just pure stupidity once you think about it for more than two seconds.
Plus there's her ridiculous attitude towards other people, which is "if you disagree with me it's a sign of stupidity and weakness".
If Robb had any intelligence whatsoever, he would've locked her up in the beginning of the war and still lost anyway because Roose Bolton is one evil psychopath. Though I wonder if he would've betrayed Robb without Jaime's assurance.

[Dienekes]

If she were an over-obsessed mother, I'd understand it. My problem is that everything she does is at the expense of the child she can actually help.
She abandons Rickon and Robb in favor of Bran. She abandons Bran in favor of Ned. And she betrays Robb in what she percieves as favor of Sansa and Arya, but is just pure stupidity once you think about it for more than two seconds.
Plus there's her ridiculous attitude towards other people, which is "if you disagree with me it's a sign of stupidity and weakness".
If Robb had any intelligence whatsoever, he would've locked her up in the beginning of the war and still lost anyway because Roose Bolton is one evil psychopath. Though I wonder if he would've betrayed Robb without Jaime's assurance.

[spoiler]Ehh to me it seems she goes where she thinks (but probably not actually will be) helpful or needed. When Bran was crippled she lost it and stayed by his side, ignoring her other sons because she thought she needed to help the one in need. When she snaps out of that she feels she needs to help Ned. When Robb's running a war she feels she needs to help Robb. And when her other sons are killed she feels she has to do everything to help her daughters. Again, she cracks.

I'd argue that she cracks one more time when she killed the fool in the Red Wedding.

As to thinking everyone who disagrees with her is stupid, I honestly don't remember that. That sounds much more like Tyrion to me, whose inner monologue of why everyone is an idiot is hilarious.

Also Word of God says that Roose was planning on betraying Robb throughout the books, which was why he did the frontal assault on Tywin's position, and had Ramsay do crazy shenanigans behind the lines.[spoiler]

[mangosta71]

Not bothering with spoiler tags because everything I'm discussing shows up in seasons 1 and 2.

@mangosta71 - When did Cat "continue to explicitly trust Littlefinger"? She only saw him once in King's landing and trusted him then because of their history. She had no evidence that he was scum then and didn't have any interaction with him afterwards.
They didn't cross paths again. But she never questioned the story he fed her in King's Landing. Even when Jaime and Tyrion told her stories that supported each other (without having any chance to corroborate) and flatly exposed what Littlefinger had told her as a lie. Granted, it's reasonable to assume that the Lannisters are lying to her, but the odds that they would tell the same lie when they haven't had any opportunity to exchange stories are fairly astronomical. She's rational enough to recognize the discrepancy, but still dismisses it with the line "why would Littlefinger lie to me? He's my friend." And believing that Tyrion is lying about the dagger but not about releasing her daughter is completely irrational. She also refuses to believe that Littlefinger has spread the rumor that he took Cat's maidenhead all over King's Landing. "We were never more than childhood friends." Because a guy that's not hopelessly pursuing a romantic relationship would totally challenge someone that he can't possibly match for her hand.

If she just put these two obvious pieces together, all sorts of things in their relationship would suddenly make more sense to her. It's frustrating to me when people refuse to reconsider what they "know". Especially when what they "know" is provably wrong.

[pita]

And believing that Tyrion is lying about the dagger but not about releasing her daughter is completely irrational.

Wanted to reinforce this. Amazed that I didn't mention this, but it improves my point about her.
Though, I do have to repeat that in the show, Michelle Fairley completely saves the character. It's amazing what a good performance does.

[Dienekes]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but she believes Tyrion is lying about the dagger in the beginning of the series. And over the travels to the Eyrie she starts to believe and even vaguely to trust him. Hell she even tries to stop her sister from forming a trial to kill him. That's the point where she trusts his word about the daughters, and the stuff with the knife doesn't really come up again. The war already started.

[pita]

I want to pour more gasoline onto the fire see if anyone else shares my opinion about Emilia Clarke, namely that she's not anywhere near as good as the rest of the cast. As the opposite of my Catelyn opinion, I only really started disliking Daenerys after watching the show.

[TheSummoner]

I've got no problems with Emilia Clarke, but I find Daenerys in general less interesting than the rest of the plotlines purely because her story is largely self-contained.

Maybe this will change come book 6 since we're FINALLY starting to get some of the Westeros plotlines to come crashing into hers, but only time will tell.

[Dienekes]

I want to pour more gasoline onto the fire see if anyone else shares my opinion about Emilia Clarke, namely that she's not anywhere near as good as the rest of the cast. As the opposite of my Catelyn opinion, I only really started disliking Daenerys after watching the show.

By all means pour the oil. I think we've about covered all our opinions on Cat anyway. Several times over now.

Ehh, I've disliked Daeny for quite a while before the show. Idiot, vindictive child who expects things to be given to her/go her way because she's a Targaryen, as if that means more than a horse's arse.

As to her actress, ehh. Nothing she's done I've felt has been bad, but nothing has been all that great.

[Anderlith]

*grabs some Wyldfire to pour
I don't think it's the acting, I think it's the character. I really don't like Daenerys in the books.

My favorite line in the tv show that showcases what I hate about her

"What about my magic?"

Soooo terrible. But matches her book character too.

[TheSummoner]

Well, with any luck, Tyrion will smack some sense into her. He's not so mindlessly in love with her or too much of a servant to tell her no one gives a damn about her birthright and that the ONLY reason she's lasted as long as she has is one part competent allies and ten parts luck.

[Eldan]

I liked Daenerys fine until she became Queen of her own city and made one idiotic decision after another.

I like her less in the show, but I think it's more the writing than the actress.

[Kato]

Spoilers, Eldan, spoilers.


I'm not sure on Daenerys... I really don't see much reason to be as hard on her as you guys seem to be. One thing is, think about her history. She did grow up with little to know proper education except by her brother and we can only imagine how much more terrible this could have turned out.

Sure, she's not thegreatest character/ruler but if anything she's way too naive and trying to be more lenient and trusting than most other people in the whole cast. It's just ****ing hard to occupy a city you have just conquered against the will of a big part of the populace. I guess sticking around there isn't that smart an idea but returning to Westeros with the powers she has on hand isn't either.

That said... yeah, GoT Daenerys comes off a bit less sympathetic to me than book Daenerys but I wouldn't blame the actress but the writers.

[JustSomeGuy]

Dany promises dragons and bloody conquest, but so far it's been a bit meh, and preoccupied with "why won't the people love me?" and pseudo teen fanfic about that smarmy sellsword guy. She could be so much more, and frankly Asha (the pirate not the barbarian in case i got the names mixed up, although with those descriptions perhaps either might suit) in her position would make for an awesome show.

[mangosta71]

Yes, Asha is the ironwoman (I'd probably call them pseudo-Vikings rather than pirates) and Osha is the wildling that's currently traveling with Rickon. I recall that they changed one of those names in the HBO series because they were "too similar", and I think it was Asha, but I'm not positive and don't remember what it was changed to.

As for Cat and Tyrion, she argues against the trial because it can only result in either his death or his release, and either way she loses a valuable hostage; it's not because she believes him. And even if she did believe him about the dagger, she never makes the connection that, if his story is true, Littlefinger's must be false.

[TheSummoner]

Because when your son is fighting a war and your other children are dead (as far as you know) or held by the enemy... You're thinking about Littlefinger.

[Seerow]

Yes, Asha is the ironwoman (I'd probably call them pseudo-Vikings rather than pirates) and Osha is the wildling that's currently traveling with Rickon. I recall that they changed one of those names in the HBO series because they were "too similar", and I think it was Asha, but I'm not positive and don't remember what it was changed to.

Asha got changed to Yara.

[Anderlith]

Because when your son is fighting a war and your other children are dead (as far as you know) or held by the enemy... You're thinking about Littlefinger.

She sure does a lot of running around making everything worse & pretending to think

[Lvl45DM!]

Just going to throw this out there, I think Cat is a wonderfully written character trying to fulfill all her responsibilities at once many of which conflicted.
When she kidnapped Tyrion I was cheering, at the time, since I thought Tyrion was the one who had sent the assassin to Bran to protect his big brother the only person in the world he seemed to like. Her letting go of Jaimie was...well theres no possible way to be stupider, sure, but hey, crazy mum. As for trusting Littlefinger theres like... 2?...people who don't trust him in the ENTIRE storyline, Varys and Tyrion, so its a bit harsh to come down on her for not figuring out the worlds best manipulator.
Though I would have preferred Robb as the one who became undead simply because we never got to hear from him in the books

And I love Dany. Mostly I just love Dragons sure, but she's the first character to grasp the rules of magic, she's risen higher from starting much lower than most if not all the other characters, and mostly without sacrificing her morals. Good on her!

[Anderlith]

Just going to throw this out there, I think Cat is a wonderfully written character trying to fulfill all her responsibilities at once many of which conflicted.
When she kidnapped Tyrion I was cheering, at the time, since I thought Tyrion was the one who had sent the assassin to Bran to protect his big brother the only person in the world he seemed to like. Her letting go of Jaimie was...well theres no possible way to be stupider, sure, but hey, crazy mum. As for trusting Littlefinger theres like... 2?...people who don't trust him in the ENTIRE storyline, Varys and Tyrion, so its a bit harsh to come down on her for not figuring out the worlds best manipulator.
Though I would have preferred Robb as the one who became undead simply because we never got to hear from him in the books

And I love Dany. Mostly I just love Dragons sure, but she's the first character to grasp the rules of magic, she's risen higher from starting much lower than most if not all the other characters, and mostly without sacrificing her morals. Good on her!

She actually doesn't start as low as people think, yes as a guest of Illyrio Mopatis she doesn't actually have weath, but neither do any of the other characters. All of their weath comes from the heads of House,i.e. Tyrion derives all of his wealth & power from his father, Jon has none at all,

[Dr.Epic]

There's an event here at my college to watch season 3 premiere. I'll probably go to it. I might even cosplay as Tyrion Lannister.

[Lvl45DM!]

She actually doesn't start as low as people think, yes as a guest of Illyrio Mopatis she doesn't actually have weath, but neither do any of the other characters. All of their weath comes from the heads of House,i.e. Tyrion derives all of his wealth & power from his father, Jon has none at all,

Thats not quite true. Tyrion has had various jobs under his father which presumably came with some cash. As opposed to Dany who had nothing by herself. Jon presumably would have after he hit manhood if he didn't choose the Night's Watch.

[Anderlith]

Thats not quite true. Tyrion has had various jobs under his father which presumably came with some cash. As opposed to Dany who had nothing by herself. Jon presumably would have after he hit manhood if he didn't choose the Night's Watch.

The fact remains that they only have what they are given & anything they gain belongs to their liege. Look at the fallout of Tyrion's stint as Hand

[Lvl45DM!]

The fact remains that they only have what they are given & anything they gain belongs to their liege. Look at the fallout of Tyrion's stint as Hand

That was a unique case considering Tyrion was literally ONLY filling in for his father as opposed to having his own job, like master of coin or something. What they gain doesn't belong to their liege and they get given alot more but thats the difference between Dany and them. They get given cash and responsibilities and jobs get to go free with it. Dany got to live in a nice house but never had any control of it.

[Anderlith]

That was a unique case considering Tyrion was literally ONLY filling in for his father as opposed to having his own job, like master of coin or something. What they gain doesn't belong to their liege and they get given alot more but thats the difference between Dany and them. They get given cash and responsibilities and jobs get to go free with it. Dany got to live in a nice house but never had any control of it.

How much control is up to the liege. If Tywin doesn't want to give Tyrion funds then Tyrion goes broke. Giving them something to do, like Master of Coin, is more for the status not the money, why does a Lannister need more money?

[Lvl45DM!]

How much control is up to the liege. If Tywin doesn't want to give Tyrion funds then Tyrion goes broke. Giving them something to do, like Master of Coin, is more for the status not the money, why does a Lannister need more money?

Yeah but the point is that Tyrion was just given things. He was given lots of things actually. Dany was given wayyyyy less and most of what she was given she couldn't even keep. She didn't have spare cash lying around like Tyrion does. Whether or not Tywin could have given Tyrion less is immaterial. He DID give Tyrion heaps. Enough for a private army of sellswords and tribesmen. Dany started off a guest and a victim of her brother, became a slave to Drogo, managed to gain his respect and love then got a small Khalasar, kept it despite lots of pressure from the Qartheen, Killed Warlocks, Then got a much more badass army etc. etc.
Shes not perfect, or even better than Tyrion. Just saying she's done quite a lot considering her start. Good on her

[JustSomeGuy]

Dany: started with nothing except a regal lineage, marriage into the head of the most powerful barbarian horde, then crapped out when she got 3 dragons. All of which she totally worked super hard for! Then she used the dragons to wreck up some old wizard retreat, and steal the best army ever with the most obvious double cross.

[Water_Bear]

Dany: started with nothing except a regal lineage, marriage into the head of the most powerful barbarian horde, then crapped out when she got 3 dragons. All of which she totally worked super hard for! Then she used the dragons to wreck up some old wizard retreat, and steal the best army ever with the most obvious double cross.

Yeah, but to be fair all of that was much more impressive in the books when she was fourteen. Hard to judge her just because they had to bump her age up for TV.

Personally I can't wait until she has to spend two seasons babysitting the Mereenese and refusing to do anything with her dragons or her invincible army. And sorting out her love life, naturally. :smallsigh:

I guess it goes to show you go to war with the queen you have, not the queen you might want or wish to have at a later time. At least she's not Cersei.

[grimbold]

Because when your son is fighting a war and your other children are dead (as far as you know) or held by the enemy... You're thinking about Littlefinger.

arent you ALWAYS thinking about littlefinger? :smallwink:

[TheSummoner]

It's starting!

[Lvl45DM!]

Dany: started with nothing except a regal lineage, marriage into the head of the most powerful barbarian horde, then crapped out when she got 3 dragons. All of which she totally worked super hard for! Then she used the dragons to wreck up some old wizard retreat, and steal the best army ever with the most obvious double cross.

She totally earned the dragons! She figured out the rules of magic from the Maegi and used the sacrifice of fire and blood to spawn dragons. It was awesome

[Dr.Epic]

Giants are real!!! :smalleek:

[AtlanteanTroll]

Is that really all anyone has to say about the premier?

Having not read the books I really want Danny to kill that son of a bitch that runs the slave-army and it was totally badass and unexpected for the old leader of the Knights to come to Danny's aid. Geoffrey's still a little bitch and I want the Woman in Red to die. Die. Die. Die. Die. Die. Die. Die.

[Anderlith]

I like how you can tell who has read the books & who has watched the show purely on the reactions to the characters.

[TheSummoner]

Yeah, it's actually pretty funny.

(Episode spoilers, nothing from the books that hasn't been covered on TV yet)
For what it's worth, Melisandre (and Stannis) aren't quite so evil in the books. Melisandre is still a religious extremist (and Stannis still listens to her regardless of what she says), she wasn't as cruel about it. To go back to season 2, when Maester Cressen tried to poison her and died for the attempt, she told him she knew what he was trying to do and that it wouldnt work. She gave him a chance to back down.

As for Ser Barriston, in the books he appeared at the end of Book 2. The assassination attempt happened in Qarth and Barriston used an alias. He kept his identity hidden until the end of Book 3. Very minor changes, but I thought you would find it interesting.

Along those same lines of small changes you might find interesting, in the books, Mance tells Jon that he had been there when King Robert visited Winterfell. Jon's excuse for going over to the wildlings was that if Mance was there, maybe Mance saw where they sat the bastard during the feast.

A different change that I do have to question is what happened with Sam. Ghost wasn't with them in the book (minor), but he DID get the ravens off during the attack in the book. Just seems a bit weird to change it so he fails at the one task they gave him.

[JustSomeGuy]

(Episode spoilers, nothing from the books that hasn't been covered on TV yet)
Sam.

Maybe they had to add in extra uselessness to compensate for the lack of his internal dialogue, so the overall feel of the guy remains a constant?

[nyarlathotep]

About Sam
In the book I got the impression he didn't really get the ravens out. Instead they carried ALL of the messages he had prepared ahead of time and they ended up being contradictory.

[Dr.Epic]

There was a pokeball.:smallwink::smalltongue:

[Lvl45DM!]

There was a pokeball.:smallwink::smalltongue:

Wh...What?

[mangosta71]

About Sam
In the book I got the impression he didn't really get the ravens out. Instead they carried ALL of the messages he had prepared ahead of time and they ended up being contradictory.
I believe that it's stated explicitly that he got the messages away in the book. Preparing messages ahead of time makes sense, but it doesn't make sense for him to attach them to the ravens until right before they launch. Iirc, the confusion resulted from the last message being sent when it looked like they were going to be able to hold, then they released all the birds without sending a disaster notice when they got overrun, so at Castle Black they got a "we're winning" message followed by a flock of birds with no messages followed by silence.

[Cristo Meyers]

There was a pokeball.:smallwink::smalltongue:

How did I not make that connection?:smallbiggrin:

The premiere was more entertaining than the two hours of The Walking Dead that preceded it, though watching two hours of HG "watch obnoxious home buyers complain about not having granite countertops" TV would've been more interesting too. But maybe I'm becoming jaded...

--

I loved the moment between Joffrey and Cersei trading barbs near the end.

Unfortunately, knowing how the story arc with Robb and his mother ends prevents me from getting to much out of how they're playing it right now.

Maybe it's just the difference between seeing and reading, but I'm with the others in that I don't quite enjoy Melisandre being so obviously evil. I could buy the character in the books just being a zealot rather than someone who just really likes burning people alive, this one...not so much.

I'm intrigued to see if they'll somehow make this part of Danerys' arc less...head-bangingly dumb. But I'm not optimistic.

Now that all the plot groundwork is laid I definitely want to see more.

[TheSummoner]

Maybe it's just the difference between seeing and reading, but I'm with the others in that I don't quite enjoy Melisandre being so obviously evil. I could buy the character in the books just being a zealot rather than someone who just really likes burning people alive, this one...not so much.

Just want to go a bit further into this. Book!Melisandre struck me as the kind of person whose devotion to her god is absolute. She'll burn people alive as sacrifices, not because she enjoys it, but because she must (Not that she hates it either. No real emotional investment in the burnings either way). She'll burn Stannis's enemies and she'll burn those who betray him. She'll burn them as offerings to her god, but she wouldn't burn someone just for worshipping different gods (tell them they're wrong with absolute conviction and try to convert them, of course, but not burn them for just for that). The show added the cruelty. She could be mocking in the books, but she wasn't cruel, just absolutely convinced that she was right and that if Stannis fails, all life will end.

[grimbold]

one thing i didn't understand about the premier and that i'm not seeing on IMDB

did they change the actors for Melisandre and Stannis? or am i just being silly? :smallconfused:

[Cristo Meyers]

one thing i didn't understand about the premier and that i'm not seeing on IMDB

did they change the actors for Melisandre and Stannis? or am i just being silly? :smallconfused:

Melisandre no, Stannis...I thought the same thing, honestly. Just chalked it up to having been a while since I saw him last.

[AtlanteanTroll]

I loved the moment between Joffrey and Cersei trading barbs near the end.
Oh. Yeah. That was the best zinger. The best. Also the new Maester that showed up. All my friends who've read the books were all, "Oh great." I want to see more of him.

[Dr.Epic]

How did I not make that connection?:smallbiggrin:

To be fair, it took me like 20 seconds to finally come up with that joke after the weird scorpion came out. I was with a group of friends watching it and I totally wish I shouted "Who's that Pokemon?"

[grimbold]

To be fair, it took me like 20 seconds to finally come up with that joke after the weird scorpion came out. I was with a group of friends watching it and I totally wish I shouted "Who's that Pokemon?"

oh my god yes
admittedly
i thought that was a really cool idea on how to kill someone :smalltongue:

[Bling Cat]

Alright, so it finally aired over here, let's see.


Suprisingly, I don't think anyone died this episode, and no actual sex scenes (Bronn was on the borderline). Mance Rayder is a lot harsher here than in the books, but it works quite well. I wonder if we'll get mammoths or whether they just couldn't be done in the budget. Cersei's line about Tyrion losing his nose? Pure trolling, and it was beautiful. Charles Dance is still king, and I think a serious case is to be made for him being one of the best people on this show.

The Unsullied are cool, as they should be, and I couldn't tell if they'd gone with the book's approach to the translation scene or not. In the book, what makes us view Dany as clever in that scene is that she speaks the language of the slaver, but chooses to go through a translator so as to be able to listen in to what he's really saying without him knowing. I'm going to say they didn't do it that way, purely because it wasn't really indicated.

The changes to Sansa's story line work, but are a bit odd I think. In the books, it's not obvious that Littlefinger is working behind the scenes to help her until far later. I guess they need to build up the relationship between those two a bit more, because Littlefinger is a sleaze.

Not enough Jack Gleeson. Only a little bit. I require moar delicious evil.

And Barristan Selmy but no Strong Belwas. That makes me sad. Barristan is among the baddest of asses, but Strong Belwas was among my favourite b-listers of Dany's story.

Also, no Arya or Jaime. Or Bran, but I can live without Bran. Presumably next episode will focus on them, which will be interesting. Both are about to have exciting things happen to them, as far as I recall.

[Dienekes]

spoilers Lvl45, some haven't read the books yet.

[Lvl45DM!]

:p I was framing it as if I had no idea. But fair call, I'll just let it be.

[mangosta71]

This should probably be in spoilers, as there might be a few people that haven't seen the episode yet.

Alright, so it finally aired over here, let's see.

Suprisingly, I don't think anyone died this episode, and no actual sex scenes (Bronn was on the borderline). Mance Rayder is a lot harsher here than in the books, but it works quite well. I wonder if we'll get mammoths or whether they just couldn't be done in the budget. Cersei's line about Tyrion losing his nose? Pure trolling, and it was beautiful. Charles Dance is still king, and I think a serious case is to be made for him being one of the best people on this show.
My favorite part of their conversation:
"You're a clever man. But not half so clever as you think you are."
"That still makes me more clever than you."


The Unsullied are cool, as they should be, and I couldn't tell if they'd gone with the book's approach to the translation scene or not. In the book, what makes us view Dany as clever in that scene is that she speaks the language of the slaver, but chooses to go through a translator so as to be able to listen in to what he's really saying without him knowing. I'm going to say they didn't do it that way, purely because it wasn't really indicated.
Dany doesn't reveal that she speaks the language until she actually buys the Unsullied, at which point the slavers are too busy fapping into piles of money to notice. The girl (I think that one is Missandei) starts, but before she can react Dany has moved on. Presumably we'll get that scene in the next episode, but I think it would have been better if both scenes had been contained in a single episode simply because now a week is going to pass between the reveal and the conversation that makes it startling.


The changes to Sansa's story line work, but are a bit odd I think. In the books, it's not obvious that Littlefinger is working behind the scenes to help her until far later. I guess they need to build up the relationship between those two a bit more, because Littlefinger is a sleaze.
I dunno. I assume the changes are there to remove Dontos from the cast, but the reveal that he was Littlefinger's agent was huge in the book. Having him openly working with her is going to cascade all through her storyline with the Tyrells. It's too early for me to say whether this is a good or bad thing.

On the other hand, the conversation with Shae makes her seem less naive than she was at this point in the books, which can only benefit the character...


And Barristan Selmy but no Strong Belwas. That makes me sad. Barristan is among the baddest of asses, but Strong Belwas was among my favourite b-listers of Dany's story.
Barristan nicely illustrates one of the difficulties in translating a book onto the screen. Can't keep his identity secret from the audience because some of them will recognize him, so revealing it later doesn't have the same impact. Losing Belwas is unfortunate, but he's not really a necessary character when you know who Barristan is.

[grimbold]

wait
so is it confirmed that there will be no Strong Belwas?

[JustSomeGuy]

Man, that sucks... Belwas is pretty much all that kept me entertained through the Dany chapters. Also it will make the fighting pit scene markedly different, if you get where i'm going.

[Anderlith]

So... why leave out the only interesting person in the East? Dany is boring & stupid for the next three books... let Strong Belwas do his thing. You could get John Rhys-Davies to play him.

[Bling Cat]

It's not confirmed that we have no Strong Belwas yet, but Barristan has shown up and there is no Belwas to be seen. He may turn up next episode, or they may find some way to fit him in, but currently Belwas forecasts are grim.




Dany doesn't reveal that she speaks the language until she actually buys the Unsullied, at which point the slavers are too busy fapping into piles of money to notice. The girl (I think that one is Missandei) starts, but before she can react Dany has moved on. Presumably we'll get that scene in the next episode, but I think it would have been better if both scenes had been contained in a single episode simply because now a week is going to pass between the reveal and the conversation that makes it startling.
She doesn't reveal it to the characters, but we the audience know from the beginning. I agree that if they leave the reveal to next week, it wont have any real value, so it's likely been scrapped.



I dunno. I assume the changes are there to remove Dontos from the cast, but the reveal that he was Littlefinger's agent was huge in the book. Having him openly working with her is going to cascade all through her storyline with the Tyrells. It's too early for me to say whether this is a good or bad thing.
It does change the whole dynamic with the Tyrells, and while I appreciate the cast has to be trimmed, I think I would have kept Dontos in, purely so that we can have the reveal of Littlefinger being behind it all along.

[TheFallenOne]

I am actually quite happy Belwas was removed. I absolutely hate that character. He just doesn't belong in these books. ASoIaF is a realistic(you know what I mean) world where people pay for their mistakes and don't constantly get their asses saved by plot shields. And here is this Belwas guy, allowing each enemy to land a hit before he tries to kill him. It. Doesn't. Fit. He should have died for his foolishness ages ago.

Was it just me or did Mance's hair look strange and fake to anyone else?

[nyarlathotep]

I am actually quite happy Belwas was removed. I absolutely hate that character. He just doesn't belong in these books. ASoIaF is a realistic(you know what I mean) world where people pay for their mistakes and don't constantly get their asses saved by plot shields. And here is this Belwas guy, allowing each enemy to land a hit before he tries to kill him. It. Doesn't. Fit. He should have died for his foolishness ages ago.

Was it just me or did Mance's hair look strange and fake to anyone else?

He allows a small superficial hit in and has happened to have a strong immune system to deal with infection. Doesn't really seem bad to me. No more silly than the Dothraki being portrayed as successful as the Mongol and not having armor, which all the successful cavalry heavy asian armies in real life had.

[Eldan]

I don't like the show's Stannis. At all. In the books, he was an interesting character with some depth to him, I thought. So far, the show entirely fails to deliver on him or Melisandre.

[mangosta71]

Was it just me or did Mance's hair look strange and fake to anyone else?
Looked more "really greasy" than "fake" to me. Which, considering that it's usually too cold to bathe up there, should probably be the default for all of those characters north of the Wall.
I was more bothered by the lack of the two women, seeing as how they later play a small but integral part in the plot later in the books. I suppose they can be introduced later, but it just made sense for them to be with Mance at the time.

[TheSummoner]

I was more bothered by the lack of the two women, seeing as how they later play a small but integral part in the plot later in the books. I suppose they can be introduced later, but it just made sense for them to be with Mance at the time.

HBO has set the unfortunate precedent of ignoring characters until they become important. Edmure, the Blackfish, Meera and Jojen Reed, etc. I doubt they've cut the characters, but I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see them this season.

[Cikomyr]

Best rendition of the opening theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm7JU1U-9Dw)

[Dr.Epic]

So I was thinking, whenever Tyrion Lannister isn't on screen all the other characters should be like "Where's Tyrion Lannister?"

[McStabbington]

I did have one small problem with the scene involving Barristan and Dany: nobody who knows how to use their knife as a weapon holds it like that. Even if you go for an icepick grip, you hold it much more lightly in your grasp and keep it tucked against your forearm, and icepick is used for slashing attacks, not stabs. For the world's best swordsman to make such an elementary mistake in their grip, it did spoil the mood to no small degree.

[Dr.Epic]

I did have one small problem with the scene involving Barristan and Dany: nobody who knows how to use their knife as a weapon holds it like that. Even if you go for an icepick grip, you hold it much more lightly in your grasp and keep it tucked against your forearm, and icepick is used for slashing attacks, not stabs. For the world's best swordsman to make such an elementary mistake in their grip, it did spoil the mood to no small degree.

Yeah, how dare they be so unrealistic in this show about magic and dragons and giants and people coming back from the dead!

[Anderlith]

Yeah, how dare they be so unrealistic in this show about magic and dragons and giants and people coming back from the dead!

Internal consistency. Would it be okay for one of the characters to start making pop culture references? Or for the metal swords have the properties of rubber?

[Flickerdart]

For the world's best swordsman to make such an elementary mistake in their grip, it did spoil the mood to no small degree.
Or, alternatively, he's so good that he could hold the knife by the blade and still beat any number of pokemon to death with just the handle.

[TheSummoner]

Or, alternatively, he's so good that he could hold the knife by the blade and still beat any number of pokemon to death with just the handle.

Well, he's no Arthur Dayne, but no one's claiming he could beat five men with his left hand while taking a piss with his right.

[JustSomeGuy]

Well, he's no Arthur Dayne, but no one's claiming he could beat five men with his left hand while taking a piss with his right.

Man, if only some claimed superswordsman would have their right hand otherwise occupied, so we can start objectively asessing the speaker's ability to make such statements accurately and without bias!

[Dr.Epic]

Internal consistency. Would it be okay for one of the characters to start making pop culture references? Or for the metal swords have the properties of rubber?

Maybe physics work differently and his grip was okay? There's magic and magic effects reality. Ever think of that? Besides, I think you can cut them some slack for not knowing some obscure swordsman fact that most people wouldn't catch.

[McStabbington]

Well, for one thing I noted it specifically because it has been caught before; the grip was one of the facts discussed in the movie 12 Angry Men. But more than that, I did say that I found it a small problem. It was thematically unimportant; it just took me out of the scene when I saw it.

[pita]

Melisandre no, Stannis...I thought the same thing, honestly. Just chalked it up to having been a while since I saw him last.

He looked like a comedic actor, I'll be perfectly honestly. No idea why that's the context I got for him, but there was something about him in the episode that just gave me an intense impression that I was watching Hugh Laurie or Rowan Atkinson do drama.
I don't like the handling of the Davos plotline. It weakened Davos, Melisandre, and Stannis. The only character who really looks good in the plotline is Salladhor Saan.
Also not really a fan of the handling of the Daenerys plotline, though more because of my complaint with Emilia Clarke's acting than anything else. She's dull, and it's only made worse because her plot is the most absurd one. There's nothing grounding it.
The plotline I really love is the King's Landing one. It's just a ton of ludicrously good actors working off of each other's energy. I would pay to watch these people eat lunch. It also helps that it's well written and energetic, meaning that they can pad things out a bit and let us breathe without being boring. It's hard to balance, but the King's Landing plotline does it very well.
The Northern plotline is decent. More because of the acting than anything else.
The show generally isn't amazingly well written. It's a flaw that kind of carries from the books. I cringed through the first season's dialogue, and though it's better, it's still not close to being real. It's a really good thing the casting is so top notch, because I suspect otherwise the show would have a problem.

[Otomodachi]

Just want to put my two cents in regarding Self-Made Daenarys and her army-

You might recall from the books that she purchases her slave army by selling the boats given to her by Illyrio, and her black dragon. The egg of which was given to her by Illyrio. Sorry to tangentialize, but it didn't get addressed tow pages back and I really wanted to point that out. Cuz I hate that selfish little brat.

[Weezer]

Well, for one thing I noted it specifically because it has been caught before; the grip was one of the facts discussed in the movie 12 Angry Men. But more than that, I did say that I found it a small problem. It was thematically unimportant; it just took me out of the scene when I saw it.

This is a problem, at least for me, whenever a show hits on a topic I actually know something about. It's frustrating, but I've learned to get over it because even the best shows aren't staffed with experts in every subject the show touches on.

[Water_Bear]

Maybe physics work differently and his grip was okay? There's magic and magic effects reality. Ever think of that? Besides, I think you can cut them some slack for not knowing some obscure swordsman fact that most people wouldn't catch.

I've never bought the "Magic exists, therefore we have to throw out everything we know about the world" excuse. Especially for a work which prides itself on being realistic and gritty, that just doesn't fly at all.

On the other hand, I absolutely agree with you that saying that the fight coordinator or the director or the actor himself screwed up is perfectly okay. Even the best media have little goofs, it doesn't make the show any less awesome in the aggregate. As long as errors are actually acknowledged and not hand-waved away, no harm no foul.

[Vectner]

I've never bought the "Magic exists, therefore we have to throw out everything we know about the world" excuse. Especially for a work which prides itself on being realistic and gritty, that just doesn't fly at all.

On the other hand, I absolutely agree with you that saying that the fight coordinator or the director or the actor himself screwed up is perfectly okay. Even the best media have little goofs, it doesn't make the show any less awesome in the aggregate. As long as errors are actually acknowledged and not hand-waved away, no harm no foul.

I'm pretty sure it was done on purpose for dramatic/theatrical effect. It looks cool, trumps complete accuracy in a visual medium.

[McStabbington]

To be fair, that would be a reasonable guess: the stereotypical "holds dagger upside down" is an almost cliche pose of the assassin, so it would subvert it entirely for Barristan to hold it as such in that pose, especially while the child was the actual assassin.

It's just that if you know anything about handling knives, that's like watching the world's greatest seamstress run with scissors in her hand.

[Selrahc]

It's just that if you know anything about handling knives, that's like watching the world's greatest seamstress run with scissors in her hand.

See... I think the grip is fine. He isn't fighting a person. He is stabbing a tiny metal scorpion. If you're holding the knife the right way to fight a person, it's going to be very awkward to stab something on the ground. (And the increased thrusting strength might come in handy if you're stabbing something metal instead of flesh).

[Killer Angel]

I wonder if someone already linked the School of Thrones (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY6dvlMfntw)...

[Brother Oni]

Besides, I think you can cut them some slack for not knowing some obscure swordsman fact that most people wouldn't catch.

Except it's not an obscure swordsman fact, it's common knowledge to nearly anybody who's had training on how to fight with a knife (like the fight choreographer).

That said, I agree with others in that the grip depicted is both thematically more suitable and probably more effective in stabbing a tiny metal creature you really don't want to get near.

[Lvl45DM!]

Except it's not an obscure swordsman fact, it's common knowledge to nearly anybody who's had training on how to fight with a knife (like the fight choreographer).

That said, I agree with others in that the grip depicted is both thematically more suitable and probably more effective in stabbing a tiny metal creature you really don't want to get near.

I'm 90% sure its just a big nasty scorpion, not a metal scorpion golem. The metallic look was just to get the face on the tail visible to justify why its called a manticore in the books

[TheSummoner]

Either way, it's a nasty little bastard that you don't want touching you.

[pita]

It's just that if you know anything about handling knives, that's like watching the world's greatest seamstress run with scissors in her hand.

As far as I know, the best way to fight with knives is to hold them that way, but fight like you're boxing. Less power than a stab, but harder to avoid. If I remember correctly.
But I'm not an expert.
I didn't care about the bit with the knife, I'm just mildly upset that they took out his awesome use of a quarterstaff.
I have a good side to the loss of Strong Belwas though: The fight against the Yunkai'i, if they don't change it, will be with Barristan dueling their champion instead.

[Brother Oni]

As far as I know, the best way to fight with knives is to hold them that way, but fight like you're boxing. Less power than a stab, but harder to avoid. If I remember correctly.


I'm going to disagree on this as the loss of reach is significant enough to be an issue, but it may depend on what style/techniques that you were taught.

However thinking about it some more, there's a very good reason for Barristan holding the knife like that - he wasn't planning to stab the unseen manticore, but the child.

A quick check using my children as test subjects indicates that a knife thrust against a target that short is extremely awkward; an overhead stab is far easier to perform and probably more lethal, since you're aiming for either the neck or the area down to the collar bone (Wikipedia reports it's called the supraclavicular fossa).

[pita]

A quick check using my children as test subjects indicates that a knife thrust against a target that short is extremely awkward; an overhead stab is far easier to perform and probably more lethal, since you're aiming for either the neck or the area down to the collar bone (Wikipedia reports it's called the supraclavicular fossa).

This is one of my favorite posts ever. Thank you.

[Kato]

I know I'm way late for the show, so just some short notes on the first episode.


Okay, that one has probably been made a hundred times but I never saw it... Margaery Tyrell is ****ing Mother Theresa. Okay, I like her. She's a decent, smart person. Probably the first in generations to sit on the Iron Throne - well not yet but maybe in the future - but feeding and playing with the orphans? That was... not ooc but felt a bit over the top. (Though I think they mentioned that scene in the books at some point)

Tyrion is awesome as always but even though I see why he didn't I'm still a bit pissed he didn't lose his nose or got some serious wound.

Mance... I can't quite say why but in his first scene didn't work for me. I'm sure I'll get used to him.

Is it just me or did Davos gain some weight between seasons? :smallconfused: (And why was I just about to call him Davros...)

Robb and Cat didn't do much....

Except saving someone they should better have hanged there and then.

Regarding the Far East... To be honest... I even forgot who was supposed to appear with Selmy. Not that I hate Belwas but it's been a while and he didn't leave that much of an impact on me. Also, I'm fine with Selmy's early reveal... somehow working around it might have been nice... a mash or something but I guess that would have been stupid.
Also... that translators was not the... nine(?) ten year old girl from the books, right? RIGHT? Because... look at her, oh god, I'd feel like a pedophile if I didn't know all girls (except Arya) need to be smoking hot in the show.

[grimbold]

I have a good side to the loss of Strong Belwas though: The fight against the Yunkai'i, if they don't change it, will be with Barristan dueling their champion instead.

i did not consider how fabulously badass that would be
oh my god YES

[Flickerdart]

Robb and Cat didn't do much....

Except saving someone they should better have hanged there and then.

Why, who was that guy? I don't remember that scene from the books.

[TheFallenOne]

A quick check using my children as test subjects indicates that a knife thrust against a target that short is extremely awkward; an overhead stab is far easier to perform and probably more lethal, since you're aiming for either the neck or the area down to the collar bone (Wikipedia reports it's called the supraclavicular fossa).

Judge: Sir, WHY did you stab your children?
Brother Oni: I did it for science!

Alternatively 'Because someone on the internet was wrong'

[Connington]

Why, who was that guy? I don't remember that scene from the books.

It's okay, I didn't catch his name until I saw it in print on the internet either. Then I freaked. That was Qyburn, the ex-Maester.

And if you're not a total nerd, here's a wiki page (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Qyburn).

[TheSummoner]

Holy hell, I didn't catch that was supposed to be Qyburn.

Yeah... Robb woulda been better off offering him the sort of mercy Luwin asked for than nursing him back to health.

[Brother Oni]

Judge: Sir, WHY did you stab your children?
Brother Oni: I did it for science!

Alternatively 'Because someone on the internet was wrong'

You know those scut jobs that have to be done but are really tedious? The ones that keep the hand and eye busy but leave the brain free?

Had to do that all day and my mind wandered. :smalltongue:

[pita]

I... didn't catch that.
The Robb plot, I suspect, is going to get really really good.

[Kato]

Huh? Was it that easy to miss? :smallconfused: Okay, I guess he was pretty quiet there.


Also... I'm not sure where they are going with fleshing out Shae... But I'm kind of suspicious I won't like it. But that's just random guessing at this point.

[grimbold]

Judge: Sir, WHY did you stab your children?
Brother Oni: I did it for science!

Alternatively 'Because someone on the internet was wrong'

this made my day

you can do anything to win arguments on the internet

and i mean anything...

[Dumbledore lives]

So this episode was pretty great, I have a feeling I'm going to like this season a lot more than I liked the last one. The Queen of Thorns especially was a highlight of the episode, and there was some good characterization all around.

[Lvl45DM!]

Actually i wasn't as big a fan of this episode. I'm getting kind of bored of Jofferey at the moment. Just waiting for someone to slap him again. Margery is being particularly well done though. Needs more dragons and Night's Watch

[Eldan]

I do like what they are doing with Shae. She was rather flat in the book.

Edit: And I still don't like Mance Rayder. Rayder should have charisma dropping out of his ears. This actor doesn't.

[Da'Shain]

So I can understand wanting to condense the amount of characters who get major screen time, but combining Thoros with the Bw/oB guys who took Arya and friends in the book is going to kinda cut into his characterization as a reformed drunkard who found religion through the appearance of flat-out resurrection magic.They can still do it, i suppose, but this Thoros does not come across as anything more than simply Lem without the yellow cloak. We'll see how it plays out. I did enjoy that Arya's not a complete prodigy, and her trying to treat the normally heavy and large soldier's sword like a Water Dancer's blade got it knocked right out of her inadequate grip. Hopefully she'll learn from that. I don't even remember, though, who took Needle from her in the show?

I enjoy Margaery in this episode, but last episode was painful with how obvious it was as a setup. We really did not need that dinner scene; she should've just had a short conversation with Joffrey on the way out of the orphanage. She's shaping up to be very entertaining this season, but I simply cannot get past how much older she looks than what I had in my head. I know everyone was aged, but the actress comes across as being about 30, which makes her protestations and affected innocence fall a bit flat. That's probably a personal problem, though.

The only thread I'm really disliking is that of the Night's Watch, which due to either lack of budget or rushing or both comes across rather pathetic. The lack of more wights, of any sort of pursuit, of even any tales of what the White Walkers did and how many of the brothers they killed, makes the threat seem completely tiny in comparison to what's been going on ... really anywhere else. I realize that the Others in the books are also a relatively slow-building side threat ... but their complete and utter decimation of the Night's Watch made it seem like that threat could easily grow to engulf the world, whereas a single scene of their numbers at the end of last season was too little to enforce that threat. I'm hoping that they'll be able to do more with it soon, but to be honest it seems like they're only paying it lip service. (And making Mormont into kind of a d***. First he insults Jon before he leaves, then he yells at Sam for not getting ravens out when Sam wasn't even on the Fist itself during the attack, then he threatens a brother with execution if he can't make Sam run? This does not jive with book Mormont in the slightest for me, or even Season 1 Mormont.)

EDIT: On Dany's slaver scene:

Dany doesn't reveal that she speaks the language until she actually buys the Unsullied, at which point the slavers are too busy fapping into piles of money to notice. The girl (I think that one is Missandei) starts, but before she can react Dany has moved on. Presumably we'll get that scene in the next episode, but I think it would have been better if both scenes had been contained in a single episode simply because now a week is going to pass between the reveal and the conversation that makes it startling.Actually, if you watch her face during that conversation it seems fairly clear that she does understand what the guy is saying. While he's calling her a Westerosi whore, for example, you see her eyes widen in anger and she visibly stops herself from responding; later, when Kraznak (or w/e his name is) is cutting the Unsullied's nipple off, she again reacts to his casual insult with an angry sigh before Missandei can translate. Perhaps I'm reading into the scene because I read the book, but it really seemed like they were trying to make clear that Dany understood him, and the actress did a really good job of selling that and showing her biting down on her anger.

I'm also slightly annoyed that they didn't get a child actor for Missandei, as in the books Danaerys takes an immediate shine to her precisely because she's a cute, intelligent child, and indeed has an incredible soft spot for children in general, as I guess they tried to show with the child assassin.

[Drakenkin]

EDIT: On Dany's slaver scene:
Actually, if you watch her face during that conversation it seems fairly clear that she does understand what the guy is saying. While he's calling her a Westerosi whore, for example, you see her eyes widen in anger and she visibly stops herself from responding; later, when Kraznak (or w/e his name is) is cutting the Unsullied's nipple off, she again reacts to his casual insult with an angry sigh before Missandei can translate. Perhaps I'm reading into the scene because I read the book, but it really seemed like they were trying to make clear that Dany understood him, and the actress did a really good job of selling that and showing her biting down on her anger.

I'm also slightly annoyed that they didn't get a child actor for Missandei, as in the books Danaerys takes an immediate shine to her precisely because she's a cute, intelligent child, and indeed has an incredible soft spot for children in general, as I guess they tried to show with the child assassin.

It wasn't just you, I haven't read the books at all and my reaction was, "SHE KNOWS EVERYTHING HE'S SAYING!" after her first reaction to the insults.

[Anderlith]

EDIT: On Dany's slaver scene:

I'm also slightly annoyed that they didn't get a child actor for Missandei, as in the books Danaerys takes an immediate shine to her precisely because she's a cute, intelligent child, and indeed has an incredible soft spot for children in general, as I guess they tried to show with the child assassin.

They might be introducing her as a new female companion to replace the one they killed of as a "traitorous whore" in Quarth. I'm still angry about 2nd season >:(

[Kato]

Thoughts on the new episode:

I do like what they are doing with Shae. She was rather flat in the book.
I rather feel the opposite. If only because her further life might contrast harshly with her current development.


Edit: And I still don't like Mance Rayder. Rayder should have charisma dropping out of his ears. This actor doesn't.
Precisely! I was afraid it was just me. It's not that he's not a good actor but Mance is a bard and he doesn't need to be super pretty but my god, that guy has so far nothing like what I expected from Mance.


I'm also slightly annoyed that they didn't get a child actor for Missandei.
As I said, it also annoyed me. I can see why they wouldn't want to take the chance of another child actress (it's hard to find good child actors, I know...) but it feels like they just decided to have just another pretty girl so they can probably strip her naked at some point by some excuse :smallmad:


Hm... I actually didn't like the Queen of Roses scene that much. The fact that I depicted her as older or at least more fragile is a minor problem but I also felt tha conversation with Sansa didn't feel very... consistently convincing? Maybe It's just how her character should act but especially at the beginning of the scene it felt... off to me.

The scene with Joffrey and Margeary... Well, it certainly did change my idea of her character. Maybe I'm just naive. But it was well done, I guess.

Best scene, though: Catelyn. Okay, the haters will disagree but I think that was really well done and a nice addition. Shoot me.

Oh, and Theon...

Okay, I hate the fact that they show this. A) because I think it was a well kept secret and B) I hate torture scenes. Urgh, the nipple cut last week was bad enough, I can't sit through a whole season of Theon getting cut in pieces. :smallfrown:

[Dienekes]

They might be introducing her as a new female companion to replace the one they killed of as a "traitorous whore" in Quarth. I'm still angry about 2nd season >:(

Huh, of all the changes that seems an odd one to get angry about. It's not like the handmaidens ever actually do anything in the books anyway, and at least the Qarth bits of the show had some stuff happen.

Though I will admit, I wished we had prophecies in the House of the Undying from the book.

[Anderlith]

Huh, of all the changes that seems an odd one to get angry about. It's not like the handmaidens ever actually do anything in the books anyway, and at least the Qarth bits of the show had some stuff happen.

Though I will admit, I wished we had prophecies in the House of the Undying from the book.

I am also furious about the death of Rakharo. It was a completely needless death

[Ramza00]

I am also furious about the death of Rakharo. It was a completely needless death

The actor left the show, he needed to be recast or killed off, they chose the easy option.

[TheFallenOne]

I did like the Joffrey-Margaery scene. It's nice how easily she reads him and kinda creepy he gets turned on by the thought of her killing something... I fear though she might have bit off more than she can chew. I sort of expect he will make her shoot something not just on a hunt, but maybe a cute little kitten, or even a person.


The only thread I'm really disliking is that of the Night's Watch, which due to either lack of budget or rushing or both comes across rather pathetic. The lack of more wights, of any sort of pursuit, of even any tales of what the White Walkers did and how many of the brothers they killed, makes the threat seem completely tiny in comparison to what's been going on ... really anywhere else. I realize that the Others in the books are also a relatively slow-building side threat ... but their complete and utter decimation of the Night's Watch made it seem like that threat could easily grow to engulf the world, whereas a single scene of their numbers at the end of last season was too little to enforce that threat. I'm hoping that they'll be able to do more with it soon, but to be honest it seems like they're only paying it lip service.

I think we'll see the result of the battle next episode; Orel did announce he saw dead crows and they probably save the revelation how much the Night Watch was decimated for when Jon enters the Fist of the First Men.


As I said, it also annoyed me. I can see why they wouldn't want to take the chance of another child actress (it's hard to find good child actors, I know...) but it feels like they just decided to have just another pretty girl so they can probably strip her naked at some point by some excuse :smallmad:

That complaint feels rather misplaced considering how far they toned down the nudity... The closest thing we got this episode was Theon's torture scene.


Huh, of all the changes that seems an odd one to get angry about. It's not like the handmaidens ever actually do anything in the books anyway, and at least the Qarth bits of the show had some stuff happen.

Well, the girl was remarkably pretty :smalltongue:

Also, we now lack characters to deliver the echoing 'It is known.'

[Bling Cat]

Alright, second episode in and still no-one has died or had sex onscreen. I'm shocked at the restraint on show here.

So this episode was... cool? I guess? Some cool stuff, overall I wasn't left with a significant feeling either way.

Is it just me, or is Isaac Hempstead-Wright looking older? They're going to have to hurry up making this show if they want him to still believably be Bran by the end of it. Also, I really like Meera and Jojen Reed, I feel like they have the looks of the characters down. Jojen's actor has the perfect face for the role.

No Tywin this episode. Boo.

Brienne and Jaime walking and talking. Walking and talking. Pissing and talking. I liked their interactions, especially Jaime's comment 'We don't choose who we love'.

I'm not sure how to feel about Catelyn's bit about Jon. I realised she was talking about him almost immediately, but I didn't want her to be. I guess it does add a bit of interesting-ness to that relationship, of her trying to love him but failing, but knowing where the storylines are going, at least for the next few seasons, I'm not sure if it will be relevant. Also it might undercut her position when Robb has to name his heir later.

Wargs. Not much to say about wargs, but that guy didn't seem like the Varamyr Sixskins from the books. Maybe it's a different character, but I can't understand why they would throw him out only to replace him with someone basically the same, narratively speaking.

Also, I totally called Theon's torture being shown. I like where it's going, personally, because I think Ramsay Snow needs some buildup before we see him again, seeing as how we lost him as Reek last season. Also, I like the actor they got to play him, I think he has the right look.

I think Shae's increased characterisation will actually serve to make what happens next have more impact.

Finally some Arya! I was beginning to think they'd lost Maisie Williams. I'm not sure how I feel about Thoros at this point. It totally changes his character from the books, in quite an important way, but I'll reserve judgement until we see his relationship with the lightning lord. Also, more hound, always good.

I liked Olena Tyrell, I feel that she got the character right. And I like Margaery as well, she's being highlighted as far cleverer than she was in the books, but it fits based on what we saw of her. She just didn't interact with PoV characters often enough to really get a feel for who she was. Also, more her means more Jack Gleeson, and I love me some Jack Gleeson.

Jaime and Brienne's fight was cool, I think the change to them both using swords makes it translate better to screen. I think if it was just him using his chain to fight her like in the books, it might have looked odd. Also, I think I tell how they're going to get Jaime's story back on track even though they lost Vargo Hoat, but we'll see.

Hmm. For an episode I didn't feel tremendously strongly about, I still found a lot to say on it.

[Brother Oni]

Jaime and Brienne's fight was cool, I think the change to them both using swords makes it translate better to screen.

There were only two things I liked about the fight:


The distinctive sword and shield stance that Thoros did earlier and was echoed by both Brienne and Jamie (suggests that all Westerosi knights have the same style, which is interesting lore-wise).
Demonstrates why you don't try to body check someone in armour when you're not wearing any yourself.


Other than that, it was your typical choppy edited fight to hide the fact that your actors can't fight convincingly. I'm sure there's a film maker's technique somewhere that equates 'shakey-cam' to 'action packed', but all it does is make me motion sick.

[Flickerdart]

About the fight:
I found it really odd that in the span of a few seconds, Jaime went from kicking Brienne's butt to getting knocked around effortlessly.

[TheSummoner]

@Flickerdart - I don't see why that needed spoilers since it all happened in show. My reply has VERY MINOR book spoilers that should answer it. It's just about the way Brienne fights so even if you haven't read the books, you really spoil nothing by reading this.

Brienne's arms master told her that since she's a woman, the men she fights are going to want to end the fight as quickly as they can as a matter of pride. She's as big and strong as any man and fast for her size too. She's also got incredible stamina. She lets her opponents throw what they can at her. Lets them waste their strength trying to end it as quickly as they can. Then, when they're tired, she beats them effortlessly. They shortened the fight for the show a bit, but to answer your... Thing you found odd... She wasn't trying to do anything more than defend until she decided it was time to knock Jaime on his butt.

[Bling Cat]

There were only two things I liked about the fight:


The distinctive sword and shield stance that Thoros did earlier and was echoed by both Brienne and Jamie (suggests that all Westerosi knights have the same style, which is interesting lore-wise).
Demonstrates why you don't try to body check someone in armour when you're not wearing any yourself.


Other than that, it was your typical choppy edited fight to hide the fact that your actors can't fight convincingly. I'm sure there's a film maker's technique somewhere that equates 'shakey-cam' to 'action packed', but all it does is make me motion sick.

Eh, I won't defend the fight on any technical level, I know next to nothing about choreography and I didn't think it was a particularly cool looking fight. I just really like those characters interacting, so I guess I'm a little biased towards anything they do together.


About the fight:
I found it really odd that in the span of a few seconds, Jaime went from kicking Brienne's butt to getting knocked around effortlessly. From what I know about sword fighting (Nothing), that seems like how a fight actually would go down. It's all about looking for and exploiting weaknesses and taking advantage of momentary opportunities to gain an advantage.

Let me reiterate, I know nothing about sword fighting, so I could be dead wrong.

[Flickerdart]

She wasn't trying to do anything more than defend until she decided it was time to knock Jaime on his butt.
I wouldn't have minded if there was any sort of gradient between Jaime dodging her attacks effortlessly and Jaime getting knocked into the dirt with a single blow of Brienne's fist, since that would at least make it plausible that he got tired. But he's supposed to be the best of the best, and in the first half of the fight he shows it. Brienne has absolutely no motivation to fool around with him, since she's the one objecting to their tarrying on the bridge in the first place.

[TheSummoner]

I wouldn't have minded if there was any sort of gradient between Jaime dodging her attacks effortlessly and Jaime getting knocked into the dirt with a single blow of Brienne's fist, since that would at least make it plausible that he got tired. But he's supposed to be the best of the best, and in the first half of the fight he shows it. Brienne has absolutely no motivation to fool around with him, since she's the one objecting to their tarrying on the bridge in the first place.

He also had his hands bound and had been rotting in a dungeon for the better part of the last year. That's far from Jaime at his best.

As for Brienne fooling around, she wasn't. It's just the way she fights.

[Brother Oni]

I did enjoy that Arya's not a complete prodigy, and her trying to treat the normally heavy and large soldier's sword like a Water Dancer's blade got it knocked right out of her inadequate grip. Hopefully she'll learn from that. I don't even remember, though, who took Needle from her in the show?

Except that she initially struggled to handle the water dancer's sword (or the weighted wooden replica that Syrio trained her with), suggesting that it's a rapier-esque blade of about 1kg. A typical arming sword is only slightly heavier, so it's more that Arya's unused to actually fighting seriously than the sword being too heavy for her.

A rough guess based on the weapon length of Needle (http://www.weaponreplica.com/tag/a-song-of-fire-and-ice/) indicates that it's approximately equivalent to a small sword, making it about 700g-1kg in weight.

I'll have to double check, but I think it was just a generic soldier rather than Polliver in the books.



(And making Mormont into kind of a d***. First he insults Jon before he leaves, then he yells at Sam for not getting ravens out when Sam wasn't even on the Fist itself during the attack, then he threatens a brother with execution if he can't make Sam run? This does not jive with book Mormont in the slightest for me, or even Season 1 Mormont.)


The Night's Watch isn't a volunteer's army, it's made out of the dregs of society. You have to be hard to command such men, even more so in difficult circumstances (like getting the crap kicked out of you by walking corpses and White Walkers).
To stop the other guy simply talking Sam into just giving up again (which is a **** move in itself), Mormont made sure that his life depended on Sam's making it back to The Wall - if Mormont hadn't, the brother could quite easily stab Sam, hide the body in a snow drift and just say 'he went missing'.

Mormont needs every man he has left and he particularly can't afford to have infighting taking its toll. This is not to mention that Sam is fairly valuable in that he can read (although not of much use at the moment).

As for not being consistent with Season 1 Mormont, there he never was in combat. From personal experience, many military officers almost become an entirely different person when they're actively commanding compared to being in relaxed private surroundings.


He also had his hands bound and had been rotting in a dungeon for the better part of the last year. That's far from Jaime at his best.


Further to this, your stamina runs out very quickly when you're doing something as physically demanding like fighting - rounds in most fighting sports are only 3 minutes long.
Jamie's been underfed and immobile for a considerable amount of time - he's not going to have an amazing amount of stamina.

The fight's has been shortened for the show as TheSummoner's pointed out, but the gradient between Jamie dodging everything and being so tired that Brienne can smack him on his arse with a punch (bear in mind she's very strong, plus wearing armour) is there, just sped up.

In addition to Brienne's endurance style, she's trying very hard not to kill or significantly injure him, something rather difficult to do with sharp pointy implements and your opponent is not showing the same concern.

While I don't particularly like the fight due to the camerawork (through no fault of the cameramen), I appreciate the plot and character significance of it.

[TheSummoner]

And since we're already taking it further, very few living warriors would be a match for Jaime at his best.

The Hound and the Mountain are both stronger than him, but unless he was having a bad day he would beat either since he's faster. Brienne is, in Jaime's own words, "The hound with teats... if she had any teats." The fact that he underestimated her might've given her the upper hand in their fight even if he had his hands free and hadn't been half-starved, but that only works once and she was specifically trying not to kill him.

Ser Barriston could've beaten him when he was younger (and would probably be challenging today still) and so could King Robert before he got fat.

Loras Tyrell might be a better jouster but wouldn't stand a chance with swords. His brother Garlan on the other hand is the only one who I can think of off the top of my that might be able to beat Jaime at his best (and even then we haven't actually seen him in a fight in the books. Just training and word of mouth)

[Dienekes]

So says Jaime anyway. I don't think he's an entirely reliable narrator, he tends to have a very high opinion of himself.

Martin is always very coy about whose the best swordsman during his appearances at conventions and prefers to say that it all depends on the circumstances.

For my own part I think Jaime, Sandor, and Garlan are probably the best. Though the Halfhand, Greatjon, Syrio, Belwas, and Thoros have done some pretty amazing feats of arms in their own right.

[Bling Cat]

To be fair, all we have from the books of Jaime's prowess is word of mouth and one fight scene where he was nowhere near his best. I don't think we can write off the Hound or Gregor Clegane as beatable by him, because, We see later what Gregor can do against an opponent not only faster than him but significantly more prepared, and if I recall wasn't the Hound described as very fast in his fight with Beric?
I think it's very hard to narrow down who the best swordsman in Westeros is, especially considering that there are several who are dead at the time of the books, like Arthur Dayne, who might be better than anyone we see in the books. I still like to muse about it, but I don't think we can easily just say that Jaime Lannister is the best swordsman in Westeros.

[ThreadKiller]

This doesn't really add to the discussion, but this is too good not to share. :smallbiggrin:

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/p480x480/482678_611315825564780_1468555773_n.jpg

[Selrahc]

Also worthy of consideration, and already introduced in show:
Greatjon Umber, widely regarded as the best fighter in the Northern army.
Bronn, who fancies himself able to best the Mountain and the Hound.
Qorin Halfhand, the best sword on the wall before his death.
Syrio Forel, who fought off a squad of soldiers armed with just a practice blade.

[Bling Cat]

Also worthy of consideration, and already introduced in show:
Greatjon Umber, widely regarded as the best fighter in the Northern army.
Bronn, who fancies himself able to best the Mountain and the Hound.
Qorin Halfhand, the best sword on the wall before his death.
Syrio Forel, who fought off a squad of soldiers armed with just a practice blade.

Alright, if we're going to do this, we're going to do it right. We need some ground rules. Let's take all competitors as they are at this point in the show's timeline, and ones who don't exist yet/at all aren't included. Are we counting dead people? If so, how long ago can they have died? Does Khal Drogo count, or Arthur Dayne? What about Aegon? What about Syrio, who is almost certainly dead, but if we're being technical, we don't know his status vis a vis life.

Also, let's assume they're fighting at full strength with whatever armour and weapons would be reasonable for them to be carrying assuming they haven't specifically prepared for a fight with so and so or whoever it is we compare them against.

I feel like I should get a spreadsheet.


This doesn't really add to the discussion, but this is too good not to share. :smallbiggrin:

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/p480x480/482678_611315825564780_1468555773_n.jpg
That is now my new favorite piece of fanart.

[Dienekes]

Also worthy of consideration, and already introduced in show:
Greatjon Umber, widely regarded as the best fighter in the Northern army.
Bronn, who fancies himself able to best the Mountain and the Hound.
Qorin Halfhand, the best sword on the wall before his death.
Syrio Forel, who fought off a squad of soldiers armed with just a practice blade.

Greatjon: It's a pity his greatest feat of arms was entirely off-screen in the book. And terrifyingly spoil worthy for those who haven't read it. Honestly though, if in the show we get to see Greatjon go to town like it's described by the one guy recounting the story then I will be happy.

Bronn I thought very specifically didn't think he could take the Mountain, or at least wasn't worth the risk.

I would have liked to have actually seen something from Halfhand. We keep getting told he was the best swordsman of the Watch before he lost half his hand, then he got just as good with his left. That's awesome, we couldn't get one scene of him kicking asses with a reputation like that?

As to Syrio, nothing more to add, the man was badass.

As to the fight in the show. I preferred how I pictured it in my head. Jaime was the better swordsman, but in the end Brienne uses her armor and strength and ends up grappling him into submission. I think that's even how they describe it in the books because I remember him saying something about how he's surprised by her strength, but I'm not sure.

[TheSummoner]

We see later what Gregor can do against an opponent not only faster than him but significantly more prepared, and if I recall wasn't the Hound described as very fast in his fight with Beric?

Keep in mind that Gregor was already as good as dead at that point and only managed it because the Viper was stupid enough to stay where Gregor could grab him. One good hit is all Gregor needs. Against pretty much anyone. But if you're fast enough and skilled enough, you won't let him get that hit.


Alright, if we're going to do this, we're going to do it right. We need some ground rules. Let's take all competitors as they are at this point in the show's timeline, and ones who don't exist yet/at all aren't included. Are we counting dead people? If so, how long ago can they have died? Does Khal Drogo count, or Arthur Dayne? What about Aegon? What about Syrio, who is almost certainly dead, but if we're being technical, we don't know his status vis a vis life.

I would say anyone whose alive during the timeline of the books, at the best point they appear DURING the timeline of the books. Ignore anyone who hasn't appeared in the show yet for sake of spoilers.

So King Robert may have been a mighty warrior in his prime, but we can only count him as he appeared in the books. A fat man, well past his prime. Conversely, Khal Drogo may be dead, but he was alive until the end of the first book so we can count him as he was then. Arthur Dayne on the other hand was dead before the books started so he doesn't get included. Any objections?

[Da'Shain]

Except that she initially struggled to handle the water dancer's sword (or the weighted wooden replica that Syrio trained her with), suggesting that it's a rapier-esque blade of about 1kg. A typical arming sword is only slightly heavier, so it's more that Arya's unused to actually fighting seriously than the sword being too heavy for her.

A rough guess based on the weapon length of Needle (http://www.weaponreplica.com/tag/a-song-of-fire-and-ice/) indicates that it's approximately equivalent to a small sword, making it about 700g-1kg in weight.

I'll have to double check, but I think it was just a generic soldier rather than Polliver in the books.Needle itself is half the width, if that, of the standard swords in the show, and is designed for stabbing rather than slashing attacks, meaning both that it's going to be lighter (although I'm sure not half as light) by simple virtue of being smaller and that the balance is going to be further towards the pommel to facilitate quick thrusts and blade control rather than powerful cuts. The long and short of it is that she held the blade in a water dancer's stance when it was likely as heavy as her weighted practice sword and balanced for different use, and was then promptly shown why that was a bad idea. I'm sure there's also the element of not being used to actually swordfighting anymore, but even if she had been Thoros could likely have done the exact same thing to her.




The Night's Watch isn't a volunteer's army, it's made out of the dregs of society. You have to be hard to command such men, even more so in difficult circumstances (like getting the crap kicked out of you by walking corpses and White Walkers).
To stop the other guy simply talking Sam into just giving up again (which is a **** move in itself), Mormont made sure that his life depended on Sam's making it back to The Wall - if Mormont hadn't, the brother could quite easily stab Sam, hide the body in a snow drift and just say 'he went missing'.

Mormont needs every man he has left and he particularly can't afford to have infighting taking its toll. This is not to mention that Sam is fairly valuable in that he can read (although not of much use at the moment).

As for not being consistent with Season 1 Mormont, there he never was in combat. From personal experience, many military officers almost become an entirely different person when they're actively commanding compared to being in relaxed private surroundings.It doesn't jive with the book Mormont for me because Mormont specifically is not that hard on the brothers under his command. He'll threaten them with undesirable duty or punishment, but his philosophy (in the books at least) is to not waste men in such a manner, because despite being the dregs of society, they're all he's got. Book spoilers: In fact, his not being "hard" enough to command such dregs comes back to bite him, because Rast is if anything more unpleasant in the books and had been plotting to kill Mormont the morning off the attack at the Fist of the First Men, and Mormont is later killed by said dregs finally mutinying.Hence why I find it a marked change, and not one for the better. There's also nothing about Jon seeing Craster sacrifice a baby and Mormont yelling at him for even thinking twice about it; in the book, Mormont knows that Craster might do unsavory things but does not know what, and he reasons with Jon that despite Craster being a git, he's a necessary evil, instead of simply browbeating Jon into obeying.


As to the fight in the show. I preferred how I pictured it in my head. Jaime was the better swordsman, but in the end Brienne uses her armor and strength and ends up grappling him into submission. I think that's even how they describe it in the books because I remember him saying something about how he's surprised by her strength, but I'm not sure.In the book there's no mention of her wearing armor (at least, not on the few pages that describe the fight) or using it to stop his blows, instead it's specifically said that her defense was good enough that "it was as if she had an iron cage around her that stopped every blow." Jaime's skill and stamina have indeed gone to rot from his imprisonment, but at least at that point, she is simply better than he is in the book; she takes everything he throws at her without even being scratched, and then when she begins actually attacking they wound each other and she gets the better of him. She's just as fast as him and stronger, and this "realization chilled him."

Whether she would have been able to stand up to him at his best we'll never know, but at least in that scene in the book, she outright defeated him, while fighting to subdue rather than kill.

[Bling Cat]

I would say anyone whose alive during the timeline of the books, at the best point they appear DURING the timeline of the books. Ignore anyone who hasn't appeared in the show yet for sake of spoilers.

So King Robert may have been a mighty warrior in his prime, but we can only count him as he appeared in the books. A fat man, well past his prime. Conversely, Khal Drogo may be dead, but he was alive until the end of the first book so we can count him as he was then. Arthur Dayne on the other hand was dead before the books started so he doesn't get included. Any objections?
I'd say that's a good system. It saves us opening the huge barrel that is 'Dead in Backstory' Warriors. Especially considering that we have nothing other than word of mouth on them.

So in that case, let's assemble a list of all the people we think have a shot at the prize, and go from there.



Jaime Lannister, The Kingslayer
Brienne of Tarth
Sandor 'The Hound' Clegane
Gregor 'The Mountain' Clegane
Greatjon Umber
Bronn
Syrio Forel, First Sword of Braavos
Ser Barristan Selmy, Queensguard
Khal Drogo
Qhorin Halfhand

Anyone I've missed?

[thethird]

What about Syrio, who is almost certainly dead, but if we're being technical, we don't know his status vis a vis life.

I still hope that Syrio is Jaqen. Well I don't really know, perhaps I am a Syrio fanboy and that's the problem, my opinion on that topic is totally biased.

Occam's razor would mean them being two different characters.

If anyone is wondering why I am spoilering this... well it's a wild man guess, no spoiler involved.


Bronn I thought very specifically didn't think he could take the Mountain, or at least wasn't worth the risk.

Yes.

This is an actual spoiler.

Later when Tyrion is looking for a champion against the mountain Bronn is his first option, who plainly refuses to.

---

Edit:



Anyone I've missed?

If there is no preparation and it is a surprise blitz. Jaqen?

[Dienekes]

So important question. Are we going by who we think is the most skillful, or who would win in a fight?

For example, Syrio Forel. No one denies he's an amazingly talented warrior, however his style of fighting is just not good against the armored types he's going to be up against. So while I may place him as one of the best on that list there, I don't see him actually beating much of anyone. The same goes for Drogo, except in the books his sword is described as cutting through armor, which is pretty much impossible but he did technically do it.

Also we have characters like Ned. In the books, not a warrior. In the tv show he fights evenly with Jaime until a mook hits him from behind.



In the book there's no mention of her wearing armor (at least, not on the few pages that describe the fight) or using it to stop his blows, instead it's specifically said that her defense was good enough that "it was as if she had an iron cage around her that stopped every blow." Jaime's skill and stamina have indeed gone to rot from his imprisonment, but at least at that point, she is simply better than he is in the book; she takes everything he throws at her without even being scratched, and then when she begins actually attacking they wound each other and she gets the better of him. She's just as fast as him and stronger, and this "realization chilled him."

Whether she would have been able to stand up to him at his best we'll never know, but at least in that scene in the book, she outright defeated him, while fighting to subdue rather than kill.

Ahh thank you for correcting my poor memory. Though, again basing off memory here so if you can disprove this one by all means go ahead.

Didn't much later when describing the fight she said the only reason she won was because he was manacled?

[Bling Cat]

I still hope that Syrio is Jaqen. Well I don't really know, perhaps I am a Syrio fanboy and that's the problem, my opinion on that topic is totally biased.

Occam's razor would mean them being two different characters.

If anyone is wondering why I am spoilering this... well it's a wild man guess, no spoiler involved.

Edit:
If there is no preparation and it is a surprise blitz. Jaqen?
I'm totally with you on hoping Syrio is alive, in my personal canon he's on a beach in the Summer Islands, but GRRM's reaction to the question lead me to believe that is not the case. When asked whether or not Syrio was alive, he basically said he's surprised anyone thinks he's alive, and that he wouldn't confirm or deny anything. It seemed like he hadn't considered the possibility.


So important question. Are we going by who we think is the most skillful, or who would win in a fight?

For example, Syrio Forel. No one denies he's an amazingly talented warrior, however his style of fighting is just not good against the armored types he's going to be up against. So while I may place him as one of the best on that list there, I don't see him actually beating much of anyone. The same goes for Drogo, except in the books his sword is described as cutting through armor, which is pretty much impossible but he did technically do it.

Also we have characters like Ned. In the books, not a warrior. In the tv show he fights evenly with Jaime until a mook hits him from behind.

Hmm. I think I would argue that Syrio's style is quite effective against armour. He manages to successfully subdue three armoured men with his style and a wooden sword. I would guess he could do far more with a real one. Drogo is someone I'm not as sure about, based on a fight much later in the books by someone using his style of weapon against armour, but we saw in the show at least that he is extraordinarily fast and strong.

I'm inclined to take book canon over show canon for characters whose fighting skills differ, but if I'm overruled I wont object.

[Da'Shain]

Ahh thank you for correcting my poor memory. Though, again basing off memory here so if you can disprove this one by all means go ahead.

Didn't much later when describing the fight she said the only reason she won was because he was manacled?Understandable, I just happen to have the book on hand and I remembered it differently so I figured I'd look it up. I don't have aFfC on hand and I'm fairly certain Brienne doesn't have her own chapter in SoS, so I can't look that one up, but I do remember what you're talking about, and my own memory is that she was shaken by his skill even in such a state and thought to herself that she probably would have lost to him at his best.


The problem with trying to determine who's best in aSoIaF is that one of its themes is that even the best can lose due to simple bad luck or having a bad day, and most often if that happens, then the best die. There's also the fact that the "best" may only be that way for a day or a year, and afterward coast by on reputation; Jorah apparently won a large tournament one day due to love, despite being a middling jouster at best. For what it's worth, I'd tend to give most fights to the Hound all things being equal, but all things are never equal.

[Selrahc]

Yes.

This is an actual spoiler.

Later when Tyrion is looking for a champion against the mountain Bronn is his first option, who plainly refuses to.





If he didn't frighten me I'd be a bloody fool.
Bronn gave a shrug
Might be I could take him. Dance around him until he was so tired he couldn't lift his sword. Get him off his feet somehow, it doesn't matter how tall they are when they're flat on their backs. Even so, it's chancy. One misstep and I'm dead. Why should I risk it? I like you well enough, ugly little whoreson that you are.. but if I fight your battle, I lose either way.

Bronn thinks he has a decent if risky chance against the Mountain. But Tyrion has lost access to the Lannister purse, and is going against a solid offer from Cersei of a lordship. He can no longer buy Bronn into service.

I would say Bronn is quite realistic in assessing his own chances. Unlike say... Jaime, he has never really been in love with the idea of his own skill at arms. If he says he has a decent chance at beating the Mountain, I would take him at his word.

[thethird]

I'm totally with you on hoping Syrio is alive, in my personal canon he's on a beach in the Summer Islands, but GRRM's reaction to the question lead me to believe that is not the case. When asked whether or not Syrio was alive, he basically said he's surprised anyone thinks he's alive, and that he wouldn't confirm or deny anything. It seemed like he hadn't considered the possibility.


Hmm. I think I would argue that Syrio's style is quite effective against armour. He manages to successfully subdue three armoured men with his style and a wooden sword. I would guess he could do far more with a real one. Drogo is someone I'm not as sure about, based on a fight much later in the books by someone using his style of weapon against armour, but we saw in the show at least that he is extraordinarily fast and strong.

I'm inclined to take book canon over show canon for characters whose fighting skills differ, but if I'm overruled I wont object.

Yeah... well... I still hope.





Bronn thinks he has a decent if risky chance against the Mountain. But Tyrion has lost access to the Lannister purse, and is going against a solid offer from Cersei of a lordship. He can no longer buy Bronn into service.

I would say Bronn is quite realistic in assessing his own chances. Unlike say... Jaime, he has never really been in love with the idea of his own skill at arms. If he says he has a decent chance at beating the Mountain, I would take him at his word.

Fair enough.

Also...

Two things (from the books)

Robb (seriously don't open this unless you have read the books)
I am the only one hoping that Robb is a Warg as most Starks and his soul is more or less fused with his wolf and then he gets resurrected as a wolf headed zombie killer?

The mountain (same here)
The other day talking with a friend he mentioned that he believes that it is the fair paladin of the queen. The one introduced with Qyburn and I agree with him on that. But he also says that his head was sent to the Martell...

I don't really see that, I see Qyburn healing/zombifing him somehow but I just assumed that its head was still on its shoulders and the one sent to the Martell was a ruse. What do you think?

[Dienekes]

Hmm. I think I would argue that Syrio's style is quite effective against armour. He manages to successfully subdue three armoured men with his style and a wooden sword. I would guess he could do far more with a real one. Drogo is someone I'm not as sure about, based on a fight much later in the books by someone using his style of weapon against armour, but we saw in the show at least that he is extraordinarily fast and strong.

I'm inclined to take book canon over show canon for characters whose fighting skills differ, but if I'm overruled I wont object.

The first knight he fights he hits a few times before the stick is caught and broken without actually doing any damage. And against good plate armor, a metal stick is about as good as a rapier is going to be. It basically won't do a thing.

But then again, Thrones is not exactly working on real world physics, I again point to any instance of someone cleaving into armor.

[TheSummoner]

Also, in the books, it's flat out stated he dropped those redcloaks by aiming at the gaps in the armor. That said, a wooden sword is no one's weapon of choice for a real fight and he did what he could with what he had on hand.

[Anderlith]

The mountain (same here)
The other day talking with a friend he mentioned that he believes that it is the fair paladin of the queen. The one introduced with Qyburn and I agree with him on that. But he also says that his head was sent to the Martell...

I don't really see that, I see Qyburn healing/zombifing him somehow but I just assumed that its head was still on its shoulders and the one sent to the Martell was a ruse. What do you think?

Robert Strong, is the undead body of Sir Gregor Clegane. You will notice that he wears a greathelm, & that he never takes it off. Then remember Sansa's dream. It all points to either a replacement head of some kind, or no head at all. I also believe that noone could mistake the SIZE of Gregor's head. I would be huge

[Anderlith]

The best Swordsmen. Judged at their peak performance
Arthur Dayne - I don't think anyone could beat him one on one except for Khal Drogo, therefore the I am considering them equals
Khal Drogo - I believe he is the best warrior in the world, not just Westeros, in a land & culture that bred savage killers & epicly skilled warriors he was undefeated.
The Hound
The Mountain
Syrio Forel - While he may be the most skilled on the list, he doesn't have the same equipment for an dual in Westros' culture.
Bron - I'm not only factoring in his swordsmenship but also his cunning to use his environment
Sir Barristan Selmy
Sir Jaime Lannister
Brienne of Tarth

[TheSummoner]

I think Jorah Mormont vs Qotho shows that a knight will typically beat a Dothraki 1 on 1. Qotho was no Drogo, but Jorah is no Jaime Lannister either.

The reason the idea of a Dothraki invasion is so worrying is purely because of numbers. Drogo had something like 40,000 warriors IIRC. Maybe the iron throne could field that many men, but most would be men at arms and common soldiers. Drogo's warriors, all 40,000 have been fighting all their lives. One on one, the knights could take them, but it wouldn't be one on one and anything less would be cut through easily.

My opinion, under the same rules I lined out before (only characters alive during the course of the story so far judged at their peak DURING the story. Barristan is still old. Robert is still fat.)

Jaime Lannister
Brienne/The Hound
The Mountain
Khal Drogo/Syrio Forel
Greatjon Umber
Ser Barristan
Qhorin Halfhand
Bronn

Jaime and Brienne are both pretty impressed with the other's level of skill, but considering Jaime was in pretty bad shape during his fight, I'd put thim ahead of her if he was at full. Jaime compares her to The Hound, and I'd imagine he has a pretty good idea of how dangerous The Hound is, so they're at roughly the same level.

The Mountain is just plain scary. If he hits you, the best you can hope for is to be maimed. That's about all there is to it. It's just speculation, but I'd put The Hound and Brienne ahead of him, but not by much. It's certainly close as the fight during the Hand's Tournament shows.

Drogo and Syrio are both great warriors, but their fighting style is just piss poor for dealing with most of the characters on this list. Maybe Syrio lived, maybe he died, but either way we know he couldn't kill Meryn Trant, whose not exactly on the Kingsguard for his skill (Robert put him there as a reward for supporting him during the rebellion, same as most of the Kingsguard at the start of the series).

Greatjon, Barristan, and Qhorin are all pretty murky. I'd say Barristan could beat Halfhand, but Greatjon is pretty hard to place. Barristan would obviously be higher if he was still in his prime, but I'm judging him at his best during the story, not at his best during his life.

Bronn's skilled, and he's cunning too, but I just don't think he compares to the rest on the list.

[McStabbington]

Bronn thinks he has a decent if risky chance against the Mountain. But Tyrion has lost access to the Lannister purse, and is going against a solid offer from Cersei of a lordship. He can no longer buy Bronn into service.

I would say Bronn is quite realistic in assessing his own chances. Unlike say... Jaime, he has never really been in love with the idea of his own skill at arms. If he says he has a decent chance at beating the Mountain, I would take him at his word.


I think you and I are drawing two very different conclusions from the same text. "Decent" is not the word I would append to Bronn's assessment of his chances based on that text. It would be more fair to say he has a chance, which is more than most people would give him. But his chances all hinge on ifs: "if" he gets the Mountain down. "If" he keeps the range open long enough for the Mountain to tire. "If" he can get a cut in that bleeds the Mountain of his strength.

The problem isn't simply that Bronn has no financial benefit to fighting for Tyrion any more. It's also that the odds are too long for Bronn to find it worth the risk.

[Shyftir]

Do we include those who choose weapons other than sword? Because if we do there is a particular spearman from Dorne to add to the list.

And as for Ned not being a Warrior? What crazy person gave you that idea? Ned was one of the guys who took out Ser Arthur Dayne. His fight with Jaime being pretty close until Jaime got help seems pretty right to me.

Also I don't actually think the Hound is all that good either. I'd put him and Bronn on even keel, that's still clearly well above average, but Jaime at his height is a cut above.

[Anderlith]

Why don't people give more of a chance to Drogo?
He's huge, & quick. All he would have to do is charge into one of any of the knights on that list (barring the Mountain) & knock them down. He's wicked fast & terribly strong. Once they're down he could easily break their heads open. Drogo doesn't even need his sword

[TheSummoner]

Do we include those who choose weapons other than sword? Because if we do there is a particular spearman from Dorne to add to the list.

We don't include a particular spearman from Dorne because he hasn't appeared in the show yet and discussing his strengths and weaknesses might be too spoilerific.


And as for Ned not being a Warrior? What crazy person gave you that idea? Ned was one of the guys who took out Ser Arthur Dayne. His fight with Jaime being pretty close until Jaime got help seems pretty right to me.

Ned took out Ser Arthur Dayne 7 on 3 with only 2 of the 7 surviving the fight. Ned would've died in that fight if not for Howland Reed. As for fighting Jaime, that scene was changed a fair bit from the book where the two of them didn't even fight. Nothing in the books makes Ned out to be any better or worse than your average northern lord.

[Bling Cat]

We don't include a particular spearman from Dorne because he hasn't appeared in the show yet and discussing his strengths and weaknesses might be too spoilerific.



Ned took out Ser Arthur Dayne 7 on 3 with only 2 of the 7 surviving the fight. Ned would've died in that fight if not for Howland Reed. As for fighting Jaime, that scene was changed a fair bit from the book where the two of them didn't even fight. Nothing in the books makes Ned out to be any better or worse than your average northern lord.

In fact, GRRM has said that Ned in the books is only a passable swordsman, and that Brandon was the real warrior of the family. Which was why he rode south.

With regards to the Hound, I think people don't give him enough credit. Every fight he's had in the books he's won. And one of those fights was against Gregor, where he was stated as not going for the kill.

My main belief in him comes from his fight, presumably next episode, with Beric Dondarrion. He's in a similar position Jaime is in his fight with Brienne, I.E. he's been travelling for days and has been taken captive, although Jaime was in jail longer. He then has to fight a man, who while not being a legendary swordsman is at least quite skilled, who wields a sword that literally lights on fire. Bearing in mind the man has a severe phobia that basically made him run away at the Blackwater. He then fights the man, and halfway through the fight his shield lights on fire. And he still wins!

[Anderlith]

Half way through, HE catches on fire, let alone the shield

[Dienekes]

Do we include those who choose weapons other than sword? Because if we do there is a particular spearman from Dorne to add to the list.

And as for Ned not being a Warrior? What crazy person gave you that idea? Ned was one of the guys who took out Ser Arthur Dayne. His fight with Jaime being pretty close until Jaime got help seems pretty right to me.

Also I don't actually think the Hound is all that good either. I'd put him and Bronn on even keel, that's still clearly well above average, but Jaime at his height is a cut above.

The spearman hasn't appeared on the tv show yet so he was disqualified in these proceedings. Ned not being much of a warrior comes from GRRM himself, who when asked said New was just competent. He and 6 other guys went to fight 3, of those 3 one was as old as Selmy is now. Only Ned and the frogman survived. It's not exactly the most glowing demonstration of martial prowess. The Jaime/Ned fight was also essentially made up in the show, the actual even in the books Ned doesn't actually do much.

The Hound is the guy that Jaime compares every single knight he sees to, and they all come up worse in the comparison. The Hound fought his brother when no one else even budged, and even more impressively just stood their taking everything the Mountain threw at him without making a single aggressive action. That is amazingly difficult to do. In the book he went through a mob of people to get to Sansa. During the melee he defeated numerous knights and only lost to Thoros, the guy who won the melee. And even then he claimed it was because of the fire sword that he feared rather than Thoros' martial prowess.
He fights 3 on 1 while being drunk off his ass and wins. He beats Dondarrion while his arm is on fire, so essentially he fought his worst nightmare and won.

Honestly, in on-screen violence I don't think any character compares to him. We just get word that Jaime is amazing, the Halfhand is unstoppable, Greatjon can fight 20 men unarmed and unarmored, and Drogo is unbeaten. We actually see the Hound kick all kinds of ass.


Why don't people give more of a chance to Drogo?
He's huge, & quick. All he would have to do is charge into one of any of the knights on that list (barring the Mountain) & knock them down. He's wicked fast & terribly strong. Once they're down he could easily break their heads open. Drogo doesn't even need his sword

Because armor doesn't really work that way, you check a guy in armor you'll probably fall down first (as demonstrated in this episode by Jaime) and plenty of knights are described as being wicked fast and terribly strong. Hell, Sandor and Brienne are described in essentially the exact same way. Armor, especially the plate used in the books is very evenly distributed and doesn't really slow you down all that much (at least not over short distances, your endurance takes a hit though, and even then these people train to wear it since they're 6 so they're probably used to it).

Frankly while I can see Drogo being one of the best technically skilled fighters, maybe even the best. Armor >>>>>>>>> no armor.

Anyway, my fighting lists. I'm not going to say the best in an exact order, I'm just going to put rough tiers of who I think is the most skillful, and who I think would win in a fight.

Most Skillful
Tier 1: Drogo, Syrio, Jaime, Barristan
Tier 2: Sandor, Thoros, Halfhand, Brienne, Greatjon
Tier 3: Gregor, Bronn, Loras

Win in a fight
Tier 1: Jaime, Sandor
Tier 2: Gregor, Thoros, Brienne, Halfhand, Greatjon
Tier 3: Selmy, Bronn, Loras, Drogo, Syrio

Explanations
Jaime: Widely regarded as the best or one of the best swordsman in Westeros. Everyone we talk to verifies it. I see no reason not to trust them.
Sandor: I've already talked him up a bit.
Drogo: Already explained, he's the best fighter in his corner of the world. Very impressive, unfortunately his equipment choice is just not suited for one on one combat like we have set up here.
Syrio: Same as Drogo except he's considered past his prime already.
Barristan: Widely regarded as one of the best knights of the realm, may have been the best of his time if he didn't have Arthur Dayne to be compared to. So highly skillful, but old and past his prime.
Gregor: The Mountain doesn't need skill, he's the Mountain. Seriously, when he faced someone of similar strength (Sandor) he couldn't lay a finger on him. But if you aren't of similar strength, or just insanely fast in your own right you're screwed. Once he gets his hands on you, you're dead.
Halfhand: I honestly don't know about him. He's considered the best in his area, but we don't know how that compares to everyone else. So I just put him in the middle of both categories.
Greatjon: The best of the North, fairly similar to Halfhand though as we don't see him in action. I put him in the same position as Halfhand, but of the two I would give the edge to Greatjon for his size and because we will eventually get an awesome moment of outrageous badass from him that we never got from Halfhand.
Brienne: No slouch in the technical department, but by her own admission not in Jaime's league. That said, she puts up a hard fight, and her size and the fact her opponents will likely all underestimate her means she does fairly well.
Thoros: Was the first over the walls of the Pyke and won the melee. Both impressive feats, which he did when he was still fat. He also is not as big and strong as the likes of Sandor and Gregor so it makes me think it's largely skill.
Bronn: Now Bronn is awesome, but I put him in the lower brackets because I think he is the best you can expect from a sellsword, but that means he doesn't have the training you'd get from being a knight. He's still one of the best fighters in Westeros, but he's up against the best of the best and I think he'll be found wanting.
Loras: Good warrior, but by his own admission not the best with the sword. If this was a jousting tourney then his position would be much higher.

[Flickerdart]

How much of a difference does a Valyrian sword make? Brienne's Oathkeeper let her take out a whole bunch of guys easily from what I recall. I don't think anyone actually uses a Valyrian sword in combat in the books' timeframe.

[Kato]

Regarding the fighting prowess I'd argue Bronn in the Vale demonstrated quite well that an unarmored fighter can have a chance against an armored opponent, at least in a one on one fight. Yeah, armor offers a lot of protection but in the long term it tires you and it does make you slower, depending on how much armor you use. While Drogo probably has little to no experience how to fight a knight I'd still consider he would be a threat to most skilled knights, if only because his fighting style is so different from theirs. At least if we are not talking 100% perfect protection full plate. But then... well, if he WAS smart he'd just tire him out for as long as it takes... but this is Drogo so I'm afraid he'd charge in and get a beating.


Also, how about some dead people? Robert in his prime? Rhaegar?

[Shyftir]

Robert in his prime > Rhaegar. I mean that is literally what happened. But Robert in his prime wasn't really a swordsman. His weapon of choice was a warhammer.

[Dienekes]

Regarding the fighting prowess I'd argue Bronn in the Vale demonstrated quite well that an unarmored fighter can have a chance against an armored opponent, at least in a one on one fight. Yeah, armor offers a lot of protection but in the long term it tires you and it does make you slower, depending on how much armor you use. While Drogo probably has little to no experience how to fight a knight I'd still consider he would be a threat to most skilled knights, if only because his fighting style is so different from theirs. At least if we are not talking 100% perfect protection full plate. But then... well, if he WAS smart he'd just tire him out for as long as it takes... but this is Drogo so I'm afraid he'd charge in and get a beating.

A few things. First, Bronn was armored in the book, and depending on how the armor was set, how much of him it covered, and where the weight was placed could have actually have been more cumbersome than the full-plate was. Secondly, I'm pretty sure Vardis was past his prime, I think he was fairly old in the books, please correct me if I'm wrong here. Thirdly, Bronn won by literally dropping a statue on the guy, and that was after he had already received a few blows that he only survived due to his armor. Frankly Bronn won because Vardis was a D lister and got manipulated the entire fight. I don't think that would work on the guys in this list.


Also, how about some dead people? Robert in his prime? Rhaegar?

We're excluding the dead or those who were great before the books started because there really is little evidence to go by. Also, if we just go on the rumors, Arthur Dayne wins everything always so what's the point?

[Ramza00]

Regarding the fighting prowess I'd argue Bronn in the Vale demonstrated quite well that an unarmored fighter can have a chance against an armored opponent, at least in a one on one fight. Yeah, armor offers a lot of protection but in the long term it tires you and it does make you slower, depending on how much armor you use. While Drogo probably has little to no experience how to fight a knight I'd still consider he would be a threat to most skilled knights, if only because his fighting style is so different from theirs. At least if we are not talking 100% perfect protection full plate. But then... well, if he WAS smart he'd just tire him out for as long as it takes... but this is Drogo so I'm afraid he'd charge in and get a beating.
Yes an unarmored person can defeat an armored person. An unarmored person does not do this by charging at their opponent, if they do so they lose (see Mormont vs the Dothraki in the tv show). How an unarmored opponent wins is by being faster and going for the weak spots in the armor, or tiring their opponent out (as Bronn did).


Secondly, I'm pretty sure Vardis was past his prime, I think he was fairly old in the books, please correct me if I'm wrong here.
Vardis Egen was captain of the guards at the eyrie and had silver in his hair. We do not know much more than that for his purpose for the story is to be a redshirt and die to let Tyrion off scott free.

[Lvl45DM!]

I'm just waiting for Grey Wind to swoop in and kill all of you like he did in the show to those Lannister fanboys :smalltongue:

I'm disturbed we aren't counting Jagen. Sure in terms of swordfighting skill he's not top but when it comes to winning he's the champion!

[Bling Cat]

I'm just waiting for Grey Wind to swoop in and kill all of you like he did in the show to those Lannister fanboys :smalltongue:

I'm disturbed we aren't counting Jagen. Sure in terms of swordfighting skill he's not top but when it comes to winning he's the champion!

Jaqen is an odd case. The reason I'm inclined not to include him is because of the idea that we're basing this on a fight with no special preparations made, and the idea of who would win in a straight fight. Jaqen may be able to kill every single one of these men (Or woman), but in a straight sword fight with no preparation I think we'd see a different result.

The vibe I'm getting is that we can comfortably shorten the list we had at the beginning to maybe three or four people?


Jaime Lannister, Kingslayer
Sandor 'The Hound' Clegane
Khal Drogo
Brienne of Tarth


At least, these appear to be the people that most are arguing for the top spot. Syrio was very skilled, but we only really have him losing at a disadvantage to someone not as good as him, so it evens out. Gregor's tactics, while difficult to beat, have a reliable strategy to beat them, Barristan is just a bit old at this point, the Greatjon and Halfhand are too difficult to peg as we have no real comparison for them. Greatjon was off screen, Qhorin only had one fight and he was trying to lose, so we can't gauge anything. Bronn, while I personally would have pegged him as nearly on the list, is also quite possibly lacking in formal training, which can be a good thing in some encounters, but overall puts him behind some of the better fighters on this list.

I think whittling it down further might prove difficult, Drogo, while fast and strong has the disadvantage of no armour and a lack of experience at fighting armoured foes. Jaime is reputedly one of the best swords, and we see him hold his own in a fight in difficult circumstances, but we never see him at his full potential so it is difficult to gauge. Brienne is very good. Just hard to tell how good. The Hound would be my personal pick, based on how much we've seen of his capabilities, but without being able to compare him to to Jaime at full strength, for example, it's hard to judge his exact position.

Valyrian steel is a good question. If we take each character at their peak in the books, at least one contender has one, and it would be a piece of equipment they would reasonably be carrying, it being their sword and all.

[Dienekes]

I know this is sort of going off the topic being discussed but I have a theory and I want to hear what you guys think.

Does anyone else think the guy whose trying to help free Theon is actually going to be Ramsay, playing a very cruel trick? Could be a disgusting way to introduce us to the character.

[Bling Cat]

I know this is sort of going off the topic being discussed but I have a theory and I want to hear what you guys think.

Does anyone else think the guy whose trying to help free Theon is actually going to be Ramsay, playing a very cruel trick? Could be a disgusting way to introduce us to the character.

I don't think we should let this thread be turned purely into a fight discussion thread, there are lots of other topics that could be discussed.

I know he is, and that's what I liked about that segment. I was aware of who they'd cast and I recognized him, and the man who is helping him is indeed Ramsay Snow.

[Zejety]

I don't think we should let this thread be turned purely into a fight discussion thread, there are lots of other topics that could be discussed.

I know he is, and that's what I liked about that segment. I was aware of who they'd cast and I recognized him, and the man who is helping him is indeed Ramsay Snow.

Time for The Most Dangerous Game. :)

[thethird]

That explains why some of my friends said that they really liked how Ramsay looked, and I was like... huh... Ramsay showed up?

[Dienekes]

That explains why some of my friends said that they really liked how Ramsay looked, and I was like... huh... Ramsay showed up?

They could have been referring to the dead sounding guy asking Theon the questions. I kind of assumed that was him, until yesterday where it randomly popped into my head that it made no sense at all that Theon's sister would infiltrate the Dreadfort.

[Weezer]

They could have been referring to the dead sounding guy asking Theon the questions. I kind of assumed that was him, until yesterday where it randomly popped into my head that it made no sense at all that Theon's sister would infiltrate the Dreadfort.

I was pretty sure it was a trick by Ramsay, but I didn't realize it was Ramsay himself. How evil of him. I think it's a great way to add to his characterization and keep Theon on camera so he doesn't get forgotten.

[pita]

This works really well. It's like his original appearance in the books, but better. Fully approve.

[McStabbington]

Yeah, I strongly suspect a hunt is coming up.

[thethird]

New chapter.

I laughed out loud with Podrick's scene, specially when Tyrion was like "so you made bitches so happy that they gave your money back? Please tell me how."

I also like black fish part, his acting was nice, showing the Tullys focus on family. And later it was a nice tactical discussion.

The Ramsai part was also okay, although not as I personally expected, I hope that he is building a trust relationship to have a stronger heel face turn later.

The end of the chapter though... well I guess we aren't seeing Vargo Hoat after all. I expected it to be solved this way but I was still... meh.

[Flickerdart]

I thought the Blackfish was a little overplayed. I mean sure, he's awesome, but because they introduced him so late all the awesome gets crammed into a couple of minutes; every single thing he's done so far over his time on screen has been to show how much better he is than that one other guy.

[Dienekes]

I thought the Blackfish was a little overplayed. I mean sure, he's awesome, but because they introduced him so late all the awesome gets crammed into a couple of minutes; every single thing he's done so far over his time on screen has been to show how much better he is than that one other guy.

I have to ask, because I keep hearing this.

In the books, how is he awesome? I can't remember him actually doing anything except shoot an arrow at his brothers corpse until the 4th book. Where he calls Jaime out on his crap, hilariously. Sure he has a coolish name, that's about it.

Edmure was always incompetent but they are really playing it up to make Blackfish and Robb better than they were in the book. In the books, Edmure's attack that repelled the Lannister force was a miscommunication that Robb should have been clearer on. "Defend this place" means to do what is necessary to defend the place, including going on the offensive. In the show he was told specifically to wait and draw the Lannisters out and instead went on the attack.

If Podrick Payne gets turned into a memetic badass by the end of this series, I will be ok with it. He already has.
As a squire: killed a member of the kingsguard.
Lost his virginity in a foursome.
Screws whores: gets his money back.

This spoiler talks about the Theon plot and reveals things from the book or at least the future some might not want to know
Ramsay killing his own men seems creepily in character with him in the books and will probably make the betrayal that much harsher. Could be fun to watch.

So anyway, I enjoyed the episode overall.

Edit: Oh I forgot my one major disappointment, I didn't get to hear anyone say "Thapthireths." I've been waiting for that. They take away all my favorite bits of random dialogue. First Robert doesn't mention bacon, then Dolorous Ed doesn't give his lucky speech, and now no thapthireths.

[Eldan]

I liked the council scenes with the chairs. Less than two minutes, no dialogue, utterly perfect.

[Otomodachi]

I have to ask, because I keep hearing this.

In the books, how is he awesome? I can't remember him actually doing anything except shoot an arrow at his brothers corpse until the 4th book. Where he calls Jaime out on his crap, hilariously. Sure he has a coolish name, that's about it.



From what I recall, without getting into specifics, I'd say that the Blackfish's awesomeness comes from being a generally decent person and also quite competent, where in his family you generally get one or the other.

[thethird]

I liked the council scenes with the chairs. Less than two minutes, no dialogue, utterly perfect.

Yes that scene was indeed great.

[Vectner]

I've never understood all the Vargo Hoat love. I found the lispth really annoying when reading the books, and I thought it distracted from the overall creeepiness of his character. I always read it like Sylvester the cat, lol.

I kind of like this Locke guy, he's devious and has the evil goatee and he doesn't buy Jaime's BS.

Loved the episode over all even Stannis and Mel, which seems to have been universally panned. That look Mel gives Stannis to shut him down, I hate it when I get that look:smallsigh:

[Seerow]

From what I recall, without getting into specifics, I'd say that the Blackfish's awesomeness comes from being a generally decent person and also quite competent, where in his family you generally get one or the other.

One or the other?

I count:
Hoster-We never meet him, and I don't remember much if anything about him from Cat flashbacks. So I am ignoring him.
Cat-Decent person, completely incompetent
Edmure-Decent person, completely incompetent
Lysa-Terrible person, completely incompetent.

I see no sign of one or the other. I see the Tully's as a family that would have Darwined out of existence long ago if it weren't for the fact that they took power after Aemon united the kingdoms and have generally been protected by the existence of a king ever since. Blackfish is an exception, in that he is competent, but I see no indication that his family as a general rule has people who are competent, as opposed to him being a fluke.

[Dienekes]

I've never understood all the Vargo Hoat love. I found the lispth really annoying when reading the books, and I thought it distracted from the overall creeepiness of his character. I always read it like Sylvester the cat, lol.

I kind of like this Locke guy, he's devious and has the evil goatee and he doesn't buy Jaime's BS.

Loved the episode over all even Stannis and Mel, which seems to have been universally panned. That look Mel gives Stannis to shut him down, I hate it when I get that look:smallsigh:

I wanted lisp Hoat because it was funny. He's trying to be so scary and intimidating but he just can't pull it off to the point that people mock him.

Then he cuts you to pieces. Literally. I find that way more interesting than just another normal devious guy.

I forgot to comment on the Stannis/Mel bit. It is bad. It's like they're completely ignoring Stannis' character to make him some love struck lapdog. It makes him look pathetic and weak, and while I personally think he is both of those things, he should never look it.


One or the other?

I count:
Hoster-We never meet him, and I don't remember much if anything about him from Cat flashbacks. So I am ignoring him.
Cat-Decent person, completely incompetent
Edmure-Decent person, completely incompetent
Lysa-Terrible person, completely incompetent.

I see no sign of one or the other. I see the Tully's as a family that would have Darwined out of existence long ago if it weren't for the fact that they took power after Aemon united the kingdoms and have generally been protected by the existence of a king ever since. Blackfish is an exception, in that he is competent, but I see no indication that his family as a general rule has people who are competent, as opposed to him being a fluke.

I'm still saying calling Cat completely incompetent is too harsh. There's a difference between being wrong and incompetent. But ehh it's not worth getting into that conversation for the 100th time.

I do agree there does not seem to be that divide. Blackfish isn't an idiot, and is an ok guy. Edmure is a complete and utter failure, and is an ok guy (poor floppy fish). Lysa is... yeah.

Oh anyone enjoy the Bear and the Maiden Fair? I was slightly disappointed that it wasn't in the Queen of Thorns scene. Wasn't how I heard it in my head admittedly, but then neither was the Rains of Castamere.

[Otomodachi]

One or the other?

I count:
Hoster-We never meet him, and I don't remember much if anything about him from Cat flashbacks. So I am ignoring him.
Cat-Decent person, completely incompetent
Edmure-Decent person, completely incompetent
Lysa-Terrible person, completely incompetent.

I see no sign of one or the other. I see the Tully's as a family that would have Darwined out of existence long ago if it weren't for the fact that they took power after Aemon united the kingdoms and have generally been protected by the existence of a king ever since. Blackfish is an exception, in that he is competent, but I see no indication that his family as a general rule has people who are competent, as opposed to him being a fluke.


Yeah, Hoster's the one I recall as having been competent but too surly and stubborn to fit my criteria for generally decent. He was just too old be a player anymore by the time of the books, is all.

Lysa... Lysa just makes me sad. :(

[Selrahc]

Hoster-We never meet him, and I don't remember much if anything about him from Cat flashbacks. So I am ignoring him.

He had one daughter married off to the Lord Paramount of the North, one married to the Lord Paramount of the Vale. He had a male heir of appropriate age, he had a good handle on all his bannermen bar Walder. He picked the right side in the conflict between the Targaryans and the Baratheons, and reaped some decent rewards.

For a feudal lord, that's a pretty solid serving of victory pie. He just did all this before the timeframe of the books, and the books mainly concern themselves with seeing his children and grandchildren unravelling all his good work.

[McStabbington]

It's memetic badassness, plain and simple. Brynden "Blackfish" Tully is a grizzled old vet who gets some good one liners, a fairly decent escape several seasons on, and generally seems to be Robb's smartest and ablest lieutenant. In the books (note: not in the show), for instance, the Blackfish was, I recall, the bait that lured Jaime Lannister into the trap Robb sprung to capture him. Where The Mountain gets his reputation for the Lannisters on fear, the Blackfish gets his based on wiliness. But everything beyond that is just extrapolating from the love of the cool old guy.



The vibe I'm getting is that we can comfortably shorten the list we had at the beginning to maybe three or four people?
•Jaime Lannister, Kingslayer
•Sandor 'The Hound' Clegane
•Khal Drogo
•Brienne of Tarth


If you don't have Ser Loras on that list, it's wrong. Which brings me to the reverse of the above: if you insist on drawing from the books, at least don't do so in a way that selectively undermines a character. When Jaime looks at Ser Loras and realizes "Oh crap, this kid is what I used to be: the best of his generation and too dumb to realize that skill isn't everything", that isn't referenced with respect to Ser Loras' skill in battle. But when Ser Loras is trying to be chivalrous in front of Sansa frickin' Stark right before his sisters butter her up for a marriage alliance, that's when people assume he's being deadly earnest. To say nothing of the fact that Loras was speaking about a character that not only isn't in the series, but whose most significant character moment in the show has already happened, and he was excluded nonetheless.

Ser Loras has suffered from The Worf Effect on the show some to show that Brienne is crazy good and The Mountain is crazy crazy, but he's still generally regarded as one of the three best swords of his generation, one of whom we've already seen in Brienne, and one of whom seems to have been left out of the series because he serves no narrative purpose that Loras can't provide on his own. It's not entirely certain how he stacks up against the best of other generations like Ser Barristan or Jaime, but he seems to be someone that Jaime respects greatly for his skill, and one can only imagine how good someone has to be to get through Jaime's sense of arrogant presumption.

[JustSomeGuy]

It seems to me that Jaime and the like, while very skilled at 1 vs. 1 and suchlike, are notably less suited to mass melee (hence why fatty firesword can win - although he was no doubt a decent fighter, with plenty of 'real' combat experience, i doubt anyone, even in universe, puts him around the top tier), and not at all suited for actually tactically leading battles. Which can be exactly where the blackfishes, coddingtons and tarlys of the world make themsleves a name, also as badass combat guys.

As far as book fighters go, you guys forget such as Donal 'killed the toughest giant while a crippled fat old retiree' Noye, Tormund 'how many titles' Giantsbane, wun weg something or other should probably get a place in a best of the best tournament as a wildcard, Victarion 'viking pirate' Greyjoy. And possibly countless more - the books are pretty vague about this sort of stuff, and it seems there is just enough for people to catch their imagination and read/interpret whatever they want. I think on the forum, almost everybody in the books is touted as both the best fighter ever and the most stupid/evil/long-game-strategist at some point or other.

As far as 'as seen in series proof', it came across to me that ned was very very dangerous, by the way he spoke to jaime about never fighting in tourneys, which brought a whole heap of 'Sharpe' badass fighter to the character - i can't help but think the script was written that way on purpose, given the actor and the events in an old episode of sharpe - it's almost word for word the same - when he is challenged by a champion sport duellist acting as muscle for some bad guy, only to hand him his backside at the culmination of the episode. But then maybe i saw just enough to catch my imagination and let me see what i wanted to see...

[Dienekes]

If you don't have Ser Loras on that list, it's wrong. Which brings me to the reverse of the above: if you insist on drawing from the books, at least don't do so in a way that selectively undermines a character. When Jaime looks at Ser Loras and realizes "Oh crap, this kid is what I used to be: the best of his generation and too dumb to realize that skill isn't everything", that isn't referenced with respect to Ser Loras' skill in battle. But when Ser Loras is trying to be chivalrous in front of Sansa frickin' Stark right before his sisters butter her up for a marriage alliance, that's when people assume he's being deadly earnest. To say nothing of the fact that Loras was speaking about a character that not only isn't in the series, but whose most significant character moment in the show has already happened, and he was excluded nonetheless.

Ser Loras has suffered from The Worf Effect on the show some to show that Brienne is crazy good and The Mountain is crazy crazy, but he's still generally regarded as one of the three best swords of his generation, one of whom we've already seen in Brienne, and one of whom seems to have been left out of the series because he serves no narrative purpose that Loras can't provide on his own. It's not entirely certain how he stacks up against the best of other generations like Ser Barristan or Jaime, but he seems to be someone that Jaime respects greatly for his skill, and one can only imagine how good someone has to be to get through Jaime's sense of arrogant presumption.

Ehh, Loras' worfing is taken directly from the books. Gregor did knock him down like a chump and Brienne did grapple him to submission. He's a jouster, and a decent swordsman. And he showed his youthful prowess by going very far in various jousting tourneys. Hell it's that Jaime considers him like himself not for his martial prowess but his general arrogant attitude that clinches it for me. The other amazing warrior we see comment on him (Oberyn Martell) dismisses him rather blatantly. He's an up and comer, if he keeps his head about him and keeps up the work he definitely could be one of the greats, but I'm looking at his win record here and I'm not seeing someone who deserves to be placed with the rest of them, for melee combat, yet.

Now if we want to go who's the best military commander that could be a fun additional little ranking. I'd split them up tactically and strategically though.

For instance, Tywin Lannister appears to always have his army in the best position, even if he loses a few battles along the way which I would place as possibly the best strategist in the books. Randyll Tarly never seems to have made any strategic decisions himself but is widely considered the best soldier in Westeros and lead the battle that was the only major defeat Robert suffered in his rebellion which to me makes me think he was one of the better tacticians in the realm.

So, we'd have Ned Stark, Robb Stark, Robert Baratheon, Randyll Tarly, Tywin Lannister, Stannis Baratheon, Blackfish (I guess), Jeor Mormont, Mance Rayder, Victarion Greyjoy, anyone else?

[Goosefeather]

Tyrion, perhaps? He did a pretty good job at Blackwater, after all.

[pita]

New episode I really like. Comments about it include book spoilers in the spoiler block.
I love the Theon plotline. It is entirely unnecessary but I'm digging it in a ludicrous way. The way Ramsay just killed all of his guys for a game, with the look the actor gave them... this is a really good casting, and some really good plot decisions. I like.
The Blackfish's actor reminds me a ton of Billy Connolly. Seriously, watch The Boondock Saints and watch this and tell me they're not the same guy. I mean, they're not, but they move similarly and they're both big guys... What I'm saying is I like him. I also like Brutus as Edmure. This show appears to be dipping into the Rome pool, and this is a successful one.
A less successful one is Ciaran Hinds as Mance Rayder. I was thrilled at the Hinds casting, thinking they're gonna take the character to a new, interesting dimension. They didn't. They just abandoned the old and left kind of a blank slate, and that's how Hinds is playing it. It seems to be common with the show to take characters with some internal contradiction and remove it, but add nothing instead. Orell has shown more personality, and he's had four lines.
Locke is an example of that as well. They've kept the malice, but left out the ridiculous, making him a more sinister villain (with an awesome 'stache). He's pretty much like the Mountain without the size, now. Good performance, no real complaint, and it's not like he's boring, but part of what's great about Jaime's plot is how much an idiot humbled him. This guy can seem Jaime's equal. Not bad, but a different choice, that, when I look at him and Craster and Melisandre, I dislike. However, I absolutely love Jaime and Brienne. I wonder if the producers knew what a hit they would have with Christie, because she is so ludicrously pitch perfect... She's a better Brienne than the one we have in the books. I could spend the show watching her character.
Not much to say about King's Landing. Dinklage as awesome as ever. Podrick was one weird diversion from the plot, though both the Mereenese Knot joke and Tyrion and Bronn's reactions to him were great. The bit around the table was a great visual gag, especially with the Varys reaction shots. Kind of felt like comedic filler, but really good comedic filler.
I'm warming to Emilia Clarke. It's taken me three seasons, but this episode allowed her to be commanding without being shrill (As opposed to "Where's Walt are my dragons"). Maybe if I were new to the show I'd continue to hate her, but knowing what she's up to makes me like her and her performance.
Hot Pie's goodbye was amusing, though again, it seemed like comedic filler. There was a nod towards anyone dedicated enough to remember Mycah, but that was it.
Final spoiler free TL/DR version: Good episode, too much filler.
ETA: I can't believe I didn't mention this: Last scene was better in the show than in the book. There. I've said it. Now I'm going to go cry "thaphireth" to myself in my room, apologizing to my Storm of Swords.

[Brother Oni]

The bit around the table was a great visual gag, especially with the Varys reaction shots. Kind of felt like comedic filler, but really good comedic filler.

It may appear just to be comedic filler, but underneath is a far more serious illustration of the politics and relationship between the characters.

Tywin is obviously the main power and seats himself at the head of the table. Cersei seats herself at his right hand (subserviant but still first among equals), while Tyrion seats himself opposite, seeing himself as Tywin's equal. The others just filled in where they were told and I'm sure this establishment of the pecking order wasn't lost on Littlefinger or Varys

All this from a two minute game of musical chairs.

[JustSomeGuy]

So, we'd have Ned Stark, Robb Stark, Robert Baratheon, Randyll Tarly, Tywin Lannister, Stannis Baratheon, Blackfish (I guess), Jeor Mormont, Mance Rayder, Victarion Greyjoy, anyone else?

Perhaps Jon Connington - we'll have to see where he is going with it i guess. Also, not that she seems particularly suited to it, but on record she deserves a spot by accomplishment... In fact, as i type i'm thinking that the slaver's bay conquest is more of a pool of thinkers, but Selmy, Grey Worm, Dany et al. seem to combine (power ranger style) into a pretty effective military leader.

Now, lest pick the best schemer!