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View Full Version : Creative minds required: What is the secret of my campaign's dwarves?



Kol Korran
2013-02-25, 08:51 AM
Hello again! I need help of creative minds for a little problem I face. In designing a campaign for the party I often put in all kinds of mysteries of the world, something that might cause interest, and force me to come up with creative reasoning and ideas. However, I'm a bit stumped on a major mystery that I created, and would love to hear your ideas. the system is 3.5 with heavy house ruling, but no knowledge of the rules is actually needed.

The major populace of the setting are a multitutde of races (not humans though, will be explained) that centuries ago were all slaves, or at times even creations of powerful evil entities, akin to demon princes in power. In a struggle that is still hazy to most people, a rebellion rose till these over powers were thrown off. but not before breaking the continent into thousands of islands. settlements and racs lived in isolation, till the ages of sailing came upon them.

the islanders are on the whole quite divided, chaotic and freedom loving, with little order binding them, but fierce of spirit and the like. did i mention it is a pirate campaign?

but about 2 centuries ago came agents of The Empire (Tm) from far across the ocean- humans with strange religion (called The Virtues- a set of ideals or angelic beings? the islanders are not certain. the islanders won't believe in any god or kneel to no one. they accept spirits and devils, but as ones to deal with, not worship) they sought to bring civilization, trade, order, and their way of life to the islands. needless to say, they met with resistance. but The Empire is strong, and twice they nearly wiped the islanders off the map. they are a force to be reckoned with. currently The Empire rules loosely.

the islanders and the Empire are quite different in many ways (/I won'tget into this) but there is one very odd and puzzling mutual matter between the islanders and the Empire- both of them have dwarves, which are quite similar in appearance at least, if not in culture. (The island dwarves were one of the enslaved races, while the Empire dwarves are allies to the humans) the island dwarves don't recall anything from their history about this, and the Empire dwarves don't seem to tell anything known to them (though they seemed perplexed by this as well). The two have diverged enoughtill their stats are different as well, but it seems obvious that at least physically, they have a lot in common.

Which is where I'm a bit stuck- what is the mysterious connection between them? I've come up with all kind of theories to try and justify this, but non that appealing to me. mainly because most are somewhat obvious, and I'm looking for something subtle, possibly complex, and hopefully unexpected and shocking when found out.

some info on the two cultures if you're interested:

island dwarves, general stats
Dwarves (of the Islands)

It is indeed a curiosity that the Empire also have dwarves. they are somewhat the same, but there are... differences. the Islander dwarves fit well in the islands. in lieu of the elven orcish wars they have become arbiters, go between and negotiators. The dwarves are master craftsmen, but their real skill (unlike in the core books) actually resides in their tongues and sharp minds.
+2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Dex. The islands dwarves are hardy and have a great sense of presence. they tend to be stocky and a bit slow though.
Dwarves make excellent swimmers, +2 to swim checks, and double the time underwater before needing con checks.
+2 to appraise and influence. this replace the stone related benefits of the regular dwarves.
Being neutral, the dwarves have no speבןal trainings against orcs,goblins or the dodge vs.giants.
the rest is as in the PHB.
Dwarves excel fairly equally at the different mundane fighting classes, and make particularly effective rage warriors and Scoundrels alike, relying more on instinct than planning. Dwarf witches often come from the warclock or binder classes, the Dwarves usually having no compunctions who they deal with for power. Oddly enough they have a few windsingers, despite their obvious talent for it.

island dwarves, extended fluff
Life probably couldn't function as it is without the dwarves around. they are the best merchants, they are often the spokesperson with the Empire official, and they seem to be in nearly... everything. but who are they?

Before the Breaking

Like many races, the dwarves were produced and twisted for a purpose. their purpose was toil. down in the dpeths the dwarves mined under the Master's yoke their precious metals, produced useful items and trinkets as well for their over lords. life was hard, and dour, grim and dangerous. the dwarves developed caution and a very delicate manner of dealing with their superiors, a trait that will evolve a lot through time.

dwarven population some times rebelled, some times sabotaged the arms of the Masters' armies, but mostly just smuggled equipment to rebels. they paid a heavy price for it, as many of their populations suffered. as the Breaking came many dwarven mines and citadel were flooded, leaving only those settlements that were high enough.

Dwarves of Freedom

The dwarves were spread all over the isles, but often between races far more prepared for war then they were, as was the case of Abriaz and Polez between the orcs and elves. The dwarves who sought to live free and prosper, began negotiations with everyone possible, first promising gems, ores and the like for their cooperation, but later forming much tighter relationships with their many, many new allies. through words, commerce and diplomacy the dwarves soon started to learn the arts and crafts of otehr races, and became the "go to" people of the isles.

when the Empire came, the island dwarves were stunned to find their counterparts in the Empire. feeling this is a lost branch of their race the dwarves tried to breach the gap but for once their fabled words could not persuade or discern the secrets from their brothers and sisters. it soon became apparent that these dwarves are quite different from them, at least in culture. were the island dwarves taken by a master from another continent? this mystery still troubles the dwarves, as the Empire seem to either not know or not tell...

the first wave of the Empire saw the dwarves acting mostly as suppliers to the islanders. the second one saw them actively fighting, with weapon and witch magic. today the dwarves seek to maintain a peace and promote solving difficulties through the Council of Arkruz (at which they hold one of the 3 great seats). many who distrust the dwarves say this is justto play to the dwarves strengths, and that they are pulling strings behind the scenes.

main characteristics of Dwarven way of life

The dwarves remember their heritage well, and that is well reflected in the demeanor. but their joy, openness, personable character and wishing to befriend people is also a mjor force of their culture.

Caution before action: you deserve a swift down fall if you swiftly act. examine your information, weigh your options, and act when you must, but not before.
impact: dwarves tend to wait and draw things as long as it benefits them. dwarves rarely commit to anything unless they have to.


The greatest resources are people: instead of learning to fish, build, do magic, and fight learn to befriend people who do this things. treat them well, and they will be your best tools.
impact: dwarves are often masters of dealing with people, but they often make long lasting and strong relationships. most dwarves go by the "it's now what you know, it's who you know" idiom.

Never underestimate the value of hard work: some things are hard. others take time, others will have their price. all can be surpassed by persisting and clinging to the work at hand. work hard, you'll surely be repaid.
Impact: this ideal clashes a bit with the former, but dwarf culture values the hard working man just as it does the one who is a man of connections. (in fact the two do not collide). dwarves tend to undertake massive jobs and challanges and work at them till they succeed.

Make place for joy and happiness: "all work and no play..." we work so we could be happy. in the Masters' age there was no joy. we will not go back to that.
impact: most dwarves set their own special times in which they just do something fun or that makes them happy. some times these are a few minutes, a few hours and sometime it might extend to day or weeks. this right is fundemental to the dwarven culture.

Empire Dwarves
The dwarves of the Empire are a real riddle- how come the racially pure Empire keeps them? and at such a high standing? what is their relation to our dwarves? perhaps most of all people wonder at this- why do the dwarves serve the humans? it's obvious there are casts- humans above and dwarves below, but the human treat them well, rely on them, and the dwarves serve faithfully, loyally.
if you choose to play an Empire's dwarf some secrets may be reveled to you, and you'll HAVE to take the "Empire background" Feat. you're asked to play with this as you will, but hopefully save some of the surprise for others. dwarves are not allowed to join the islanders, and as such you are a fugitive. you WILL be hunted down! you've been warned.
+2 con, +2 int, -2 cha
other than that the Empire dwarves are like in the PHB except for racial enmity against orcs and goblinoids which does not exist.
if you wish to play this race you must take the Empire Backgorund feat. you get access to certain classes, skills, feats and equipment. check the feat section.

Empire dwarves, slightly extended fluff
the dwarves are an integral part of the Empire. though the humans are more numerous, and despite their open dislike of the racial diversity in the isles, they show great respect for the dwarves, and treat them fairly. the dwarves do not look enslaved, begrudging this association, and they accept the Virtues as well as the humans do. the two races seem to be equal.

or are they? it's not quite understood, but over the 2 and a half centuries we have noticed that though dwarves are as educated, as capable and so on, they rarely rise to high ranks. a ship's captain will almost always be a human. high priests as well, as are the small colonies' rulers. the dwarves seem fine with it. it seems to be natural?

another interesting fact- we didn't give them the name dwarves. that is how they were called back in Tarias. needless to say this has confounded many of the islanders dwarves who think there might be some relation, but if so- what? the two races has some strong similarities, but also strong separating factors.

I apologize for the length, and greatly appreciate any advice, ideas, or questions that might help give this issue more depth and volume.

hymer
2013-02-25, 09:00 AM
Here's one suggestion: Concurrent evolution. Dwarves are the true inheritors of this world, they sprung up through evolution, and they will be here long after all the demon-created beings have gone down into dust.

Premier
2013-02-25, 09:14 AM
- Long-lost and forgotten Dwarven Empire that used to connect the two continents with massive underground tunnel systems. Some of the ruins might still be around.

- Dwarves are not actually a "natural" species but elemental spirits that spring up from the earth and rock. The differences are accounted for by either differing geological composition or the tainting/modifying effects of wide-spread magic.

- Dwarves are bio-magitech robots created by an ancient race. Different models were used on different continents.

- Mighty dwarven empires used to rule the surface in primordial times, waging terrible wars on each other. When things started going south, numerous power factions resorted to worldwide spells of forgetting and oblivion, erasing memories of their existence from the minds of their hostile cousins - that's why they don't remember each other now.

- Dwarves are space aliens from a high-gravity homeworld whose massive generation ships made landfall on different continents. In subsequent centuries or millenia they have regressed technologically (but still retain a great talent at craftsmanship and devices) and have forgotten about the other colonists.

Telonius
2013-02-25, 09:33 AM
Conspiracy possibility: The original dwarvish settlements on the Islands were made by troublemaker dwarves - the ones not smart enough to plan or too impetuous to keep quiet when the Empire humans made a request. When the rulers of the Empire dwarves found that one of their members was simply too dangerous to keep around, they would cast strong magic erasing their memories. (Friends and relatives would get similar treatment). It would be as though the troublemaker never existed. Then, they would be secretly shipped away to the penal colony in the islands, where they were given new memories and identities. A strong part of the culture is to be proud of your heritage; so much so that no one would question whether or not you're a relative of the person you say you are.

The rulers of the Island Dwarves are actually agents of the Empire Dwarves. They're still in contact with each other, trying to keep both the rebels and the empire dependent on the weapons they provide (as well as protect the dark secret of their origins from both of their peoples). Because they need to kep the secret, Empire dwarves are forbidden from interacting with Island dwarves.

The dwarvish rulers eventually hope is to draw the empire out into a protracted civil war, that will shatter the political unity that currently exists, and allow dwarves to seize still more power.

caden_varn
2013-02-25, 10:17 AM
The empire dwarves are a sub-caste of the original dwarf slave population. The slave-masters took those dwarves who seemed to be more intelligent and more docile, and bred these traits further to create a subrace to be their overseers, engineers and managers down in the deeps. When the rebellion started, many of this overseer caste, bred and conditioned to follow their masters, sided with them, and when they lost were forced to flee from their vengeful kin.

These dwarves eventually landed on the shores of what would be the Empire one day, populated by humans at a primitive technological level. The dwarves were able to teach the humans much, and soon the tribes became nations, and the nations became the Empire, with the technology and learning of the dwarves mixing with the tribal superstitions of the humans to give rise to the Virtues.
The dwarves easily slipped back into a subservient position. Valued by the humans for their loyalty, intelligence and knowledge, they are generally uneasy in positions of power and do not seek them. They are often found as aides, chamberlains, functionaries and clerks and other such senior servant positions - and they are comfortable with this.
The humans are happy to honour the dwarves and treat them well, confident that they will never challenge for the positions of power and influence which are the sole prerogative of the humans.

Perhaps the secret is a little darker still - perhaps the humans are the much-degraded remnants of the original evil entities which first created the dwarves, kept safe by their slaves all these years...

Xeratos
2013-02-25, 10:38 AM
You said that your continent was broken apart during the rebellion to overthrow the rule of the demonic entities. This implies that at one time, there was a solid, Pangaea-esque landmass. It could very simply be that dwarves on part A became island dwarves, where as dwarves from part B were left on the mainland, so to speak.

That, however, would be boring. Alternatively, I present this:

The demonic entities that at one time controlled the fate of all sentient beings only had their power broken over the islanders through the act of sundering a large portion of the continent into those selfsame islands. Demon spirits of fire dislike large bodies of water, and have not actively been attempting to recapture their lost slaves (this may or may not work for you, depending on how much interaction your pirate isles have with demons in current day).

More to the point, those powers never loss their stranglehold on humanity back on the mainland, and the Empire is controlled at the highest level by powers that value subtlety, ones that aren't vain, and don't crave attention, only power, control, and wealth. Dwarves, with their natural hardiness and skills, made excellent pawns for contributing to the Empire's wealth and as frontmen for their armies.

However, with their natural resistance to beguiling enchantments, they are much harder for the demonic entities to control directly, leading them to use their human puppets instead. Empire dwarves are a part of an empire controlled by demon masters, unknowing victims of exploitation for generations, which still probably isn't as bad as knowing that a demon overlord is making you dance like a marionette.


* * *

As an aside: if the assumption is that the Empire is made of only humans and dwarves, then there would have to be a valid reason that there are no elves, halflings, etc. as part of its structure. I see three possible routes to take this.

The first is geographical: the landmass that was left when the continent was broken apart was all mountains, populated exclusively by dwarves and highland tribes of humans.

Second: Genocide of all races deemed not useful, though perhaps elven artisan slaves might still be alive, crafting masterpieces for their human overlords back home. And it does seem wasteful to kill your slaves when you could be getting work out of them. If that was the price they had to pay to keep up appearances with their "willing" dwarven minions though, then so be it. Quietly eradicating a race of beings outside the public eye to keep the much more useful ones happily oppressed seems a decent trade off.

Third: Viva la resistance! Somewhere deep in the outlands of the Empire are the freedom fighters seeking to break the yoke of oppression that has been cast over them for years. Do they even know themselves the true source of evil guiding the humans?


* * *

This seems like an excellently crafted game setting, and I congratulate you on your cleverness and ingenuity. I will admit my first thought as I started reading this was, "Oh God, it's Wind Waker the tabletop. Please, no more sailing!" I quickly lost that assumption though, and I am genuinely interested in knowing how the campaign turns out.

Jornophelanthas
2013-02-25, 10:56 AM
Here are a few scenarios:

1. The Lost Children and the Unholy Bargain
The original Masters who enslaved the many races of the Islands were powerful beings who gathered many different races from different worlds/planes, and altered some of those to better suit their purposes. The Islander dwarves' ancestors happened to be from the same world where the Masters had settled.
Thousands of years ago, the Masters sought to conquer and enslave the continent that would later become home to the human Empire. The dwarves, as the most advanced race on that continent, managed to seal a terrible pact with the Masters. The dwarves were to relinquish all their firstborn children beneath a certain age to the Masters (who would raise them as their slaves and laborers), and in exchange, the Masters would never lay eyes on the other continent again for as long as a descendant of the lost children still served them.
The Masters took the dwarven children, raised and slightly modified them and put them to work. These became the Islander dwarves. True to their word, the Masters never again returned to the other continent.
The original dwarves maintained records of the terrible deal with the alien Masters, which became a black page in their history. They keep it a racial secret, vowing to never tell any outsiders out of shame for their ancestors. The original dwarven race fell into depression and decline after losing their entire youngest generation. The survivors and their descendants (calling themselves the "Secondborn") felt great shame and guilt, and questioned their worthiness as a race. They were eventually surpassed in greatness by the race of humans, and they have been content to serve this younger race's Empire humbly, placing their faith in the human Virtues, because the Secondborn dwarves had squandered its own virtue, in their eyes. These became the Empire dwarves.
The humans never learned of the dwarves' black history, and they have no memory of the event itself, as they were little more than primitive cavedwellers when it happened. Present-day human scholars have wondered about the uncanny resemblance between Empire dwarves and Islander dwarves, but they have few leads to go on. The Empire dwarves are not talking, and the Islander dwarves are clueless.
---
The resurgence of the Islander dwarves has caused great turmoil among the Empire dwarves' historians and spiritual leaders. Some argue that if the descendants of the Lost Children (or "the Firstborn") had survived, could the unspeakable debt of their race perhaps be repaid by welcoming them back into the fold? Others say that the Islander dwarves must never learn of the unholy bargain, and that they must be left to their own devices so that they will not be sullied by the Secondborn dwarves' unworthiness. Finally, a faction of doomsayers is clamoring for attention, warning that the ancient pact is now void, for no descendant of the Firstborn dwarves now serves the alien Masters, and the Masters could well return to enslave ALL races of the world.

2. The Return of the Ancient Masters
When the Masters were overthrown by their slaves (who would later become the Island Races), they vowed to have their revenge on them one day. Although their power was broken, a small group of these incredibly powerful beings managed to escape with only a small trove of magical artifacts and a sizable crew of loyalist dwarven slaves. They fled on the other large continent of the world.
There, they found the race of humans, who were fast-breeding, powerful and intelligent, but still in a state of infancy as a race. They saw great potential in these primitive humans, and saw in them the instrument for their revenge.
They sent out their dwarven servants to teach the fledgling humans about technology, magic, law and organization, all in exchange for worshipping the Masters as their gods. They adopted the name "Virtues" for this, and the dwarves became their acolytes and prophets.
The humans were eager to learn and to turn knowledge into power. Their new Empire swiftly grew, and became the most advanced society in the world. The "Virtues" oversaw all this from their hidden sanctuaries in secluded places where only dwarves were allowed, and bided their time until the Empire was large and powerful enough to strike back at the island remains of their old home.
The Empire dwarves are held in high esteem by the humans, because they stand closer to the Virtues than any human may ever hope to be. However, the Virtues teach that the dwarves are a servant race, so positions of leadership and influence are not deemed suitable for them. The humans have an organized religion of the Virtues that produces powerful clerics, but even their mightiest priest has never laid eyes upon the Virtues themselves.
The Empire dwarves are faithful servants of both the Virtues and the Empire, as they are descended from loyalist slaves, and were perhaps even further "modified" to ensure their faithfulness and servitude. Only those dwarves who directly serve with the Virtues are afforded any real knowledge of the Virtues' nature, of course. The dwarves who serve the Empire as warriors, advisors and administrators are simply devout followers of the Virtues. However, all Empire dwarves tend to be more fanatic followers of the Virtues than any human, firm supporters of the Empire's expansion in the Islands region, and they view the Islander dwarves with disgust, considering them degenerates.
---
Any Empire dwarf willingly fraternizing with any Islander dwarves is deemed a traitor and a degenerate, and will be killed on sight by the Empire. (This is a measure originating from the Virtues themselves to ensure the secrecy of their true nature.) Recently, the Empire has founded a special inquisition with the sole purpose of policing the contacts between Empire dwarves and Islanders, and protecting the Empire from infiltration by Islander dwarves (especially those pretending to be Empire dwarves). Any Islander dwarf near Empire holdings will therefore gain their interest. This secret police is the exception to the rule: it is led by an elite council of Empire dwarves, but all their enforcers are humans.

ReaderAt2046
2013-02-25, 11:16 AM
Here's a thought: The dwarves are still great tunnelers, right? Have there be secret dwarvish tunnels under the seabed, connecting the island dwarves and the mainland dwarves. So they are quite literally connected, there are tunnels connecting their respective realms.

Kol Korran
2013-02-26, 03:19 AM
so many cool suggestions in such a short time! thanks a lot people! you got some interesting ideas in mind, let me respond and discuss...


Here's one suggestion: Concurrent evolution.
Concurrent evolution might explain things, but... so what? how does it engage the PCs on discovery? how does it make the gamer more fun? what does it add to the atmosphere?



- elemental spirits that spring up from the earth and rock.

- bio-magitech robots .

- space aliens from a high-gravity homeworld w
um, interesting proposals, but a bit too outlandish and "out there" for the feel, theme, and atmosphere of the campaing- sea faring pirates. these suggestions take the game in a direction I don't quite want to. as to the elemental spirits idea- the dwarves are allready quite set as an existing "normal" race, that breeds in the normal way, is flesh and blood and the like. I want them to have a humanoid outlook, not a fey/ elemental/ spirit one.


Conspiracy possibility: The original dwarvish settlements on the Islands were made by troublemaker dwarves - the ones not smart enough to plan or too impetuous to keep quiet when the Empire humans made a request. When the rulers of the Empire dwarves found that one of their members was simply too dangerous to keep around, they would cast strong magic erasing their memories. (Friends and relatives would get similar treatment). It would be as though the troublemaker never existed. Then, they would be secretly shipped away to the penal colony in the islands, where they were given new memories and identities. A strong part of the culture is to be proud of your heritage; so much so that no one would question whether or not you're a relative of the person you say you are.

The rulers of the Island Dwarves are actually agents of the Empire Dwarves. They're still in contact with each other, trying to keep both the rebels and the empire dependent on the weapons they provide (as well as protect the dark secret of their origins from both of their peoples). Because they need to kep the secret, Empire dwarves are forbidden from interacting with Island dwarves.

The dwarvish rulers eventually hope is to draw the empire out into a protracted civil war, that will shatter the political unity that currently exists, and allow dwarves to seize still more power.
I like the idea! but there may be a few problems with that:
- the other races have have accounts of the island dwarves assisting in the war against The Masters, and also interacting with the other races far before any signs of the Empire were seen. the dwarves occupy settlements fairly in the center of the isles, and in this campaign they are very outgoing and engaging (they are the main diplomats and merchants), so it's a bit hard to imagine them as a penal colony seperated from the rest of the islanders till the time was right.

- island dwarves posses certain apttitudes towards magic and witchcraft that stems from the cursed/ blessed nature of the islanders, and their connection to the masters. this however might be explained as a sort of "magic contamination", but it's a bit heavy handed and might not fly as well.

- a major problem is that the dwarves settlements are a disjoint lot- there re quite a few settlements, and all with their own way of doing things. it might be quite hard to work an overall conspiracy this way, though it might be done for say... the original island?


The empire dwarves are a sub-caste of the original dwarf slave population. The slave-masters took those dwarves who seemed to be more intelligent and more docile, and bred these traits further to create a subrace to be their overseers, engineers and managers down in the deeps. When the rebellion started, many of this overseer caste, bred and conditioned to follow their masters, sided with them, and when they lost were forced to flee from their vengeful kin.

These dwarves eventually landed on the shores of what would be the Empire one day, populated by humans at a primitive technological level. The dwarves were able to teach the humans much, and soon the tribes became nations, and the nations became the Empire, with the technology and learning of the dwarves mixing with the tribal superstitions of the humans to give rise to the Virtues.
The dwarves easily slipped back into a subservient position. Valued by the humans for their loyalty, intelligence and knowledge, they are generally uneasy in positions of power and do not seek them. They are often found as aides, chamberlains, functionaries and clerks and other such senior servant positions - and they are comfortable with this.
The humans are happy to honour the dwarves and treat them well, confident that they will never challenge for the positions of power and influence which are the sole prerogative of the humans.

Perhaps the secret is a little darker still - perhaps the humans are the much-degraded remnants of the original evil entities which first created the dwarves, kept safe by their slaves all these years...
This is a similar idea to what I imagined originally. (except for the idea of humans being a degraded form of abominations. and also- your idea polishes off some "sharp corners" much better). the idea is neat, explains everything in a believable way, and explains things in a very satisfactory manner. but... it doesn't much leave the players a place to get involved. things are settled down, everyone is happy in their own place. everything is explained- but then what? I could think that the players might try to get the Empire dwarves on their side, perhaps start a sort of a revolution to join the "long estranged kin", but I don't quite see how it will happen. The Empire dwarves are quite content to be with the humans, how will the PCs spark the fire of resistance?


This implies that at one time, there was a solid, Pangaea-esque landmass.
actually, there was one continent where the masters lived, along withtheir created races, that got broken up. there is another continent where the humans live, along with the Empire dwarves, quite far far away... recently two new races have appeared on the scene, the Vizikian (loosely they could be described as weird artistic hive mind warforged like beings) and the Sebbicai (psionis cat people with old arabic world like culture) who came from... somewhere. but that doesn't concern the thread at the moment.


More to the point, those powers never loss their stranglehold on humanity back on the mainland, and the Empire is controlled at the highest level by powers that value subtlety, ones that aren't vain, and don't crave attention, only power, control, and wealth. Dwarves, with their natural hardiness and skills, made excellent pawns for contributing to the Empire's wealth and as frontmen for their armies.

However, with their natural resistance to beguiling enchantments, they are much harder for the demonic entities to control directly, leading them to use their human puppets instead. Empire dwarves are a part of an empire controlled by demon masters, unknowing victims of exploitation for generations, which still probably isn't as bad as knowing that a demon overlord is making you dance like a marionette.

The empire secretly controlled by a Masters (or a few) is an idea that came to my mind as well. however, that would put the Empire strictly on the "irredeemable evil" side to most islanders, while i wish to make the Empire a more "shades of grey" power (even if they are currently, partly rightly so, quite vilified).


As an aside: if the assumption is that the Empire is made of only humans and dwarves, then there would have to be a valid reason that there are no elves, halflings, etc. as part of its structure. I see three possible routes to take this.
The humans continent was never a part of the islanders continent, and held mostly humans, who mostly fought each other till the Virtues religion arose and unified them somewhat, (though requiring a bloody campaign to conquer all opposition, think crusades). there may have been other races (/perhaps still there are a few left?) but on the whole, the islanders's races have not been seen before by the humans, having grown on different continents.

Behind the scenes: the Empire is supposed to represent a much more unified, less diverse but greatly capable and efficient force, while the islanders are much more chaoitc, diverse and spread out. the different races are a part of this. which just makes the similar dwarves on the two side such a great oddity.


Third: Viva la resistance! Somewhere deep in the outlands of the Empire are the freedom fighters seeking to break the yoke of oppression that has been cast over them for years. Do they even know themselves the true source of evil guiding the humans?
The focus of the campaign is on the Islands so far. there is a whole lot to occupy the PCs here. They might get sea worthy enough ships and navigational charts to the continent of the Empire sometime (a serious adventure in itself, as the charts are a highly guarded secret), but their continent is not yet mapped, planned or much detailed. who knows what the future might bring?


This seems like an excellently crafted game setting, and I congratulate you on your cleverness and ingenuity. I will admit my first thought as I started reading this was, "Oh God, it's Wind Waker the tabletop. Please, no more sailing!" I quickly lost that assumption though, and I am genuinely interested in knowing how the campaign turns out.
Thanks! I don't know what Wind Waker is, but even so I assume most (if not all) of my ideas are not that original. I draw inspiration from many places (most times unconsciously) but I try to patch up my ideas in an interesting manner?

I put a lot of thought and effort in the campaign, and I intend to write a DM's perspective campaign log in the future (similar to the ones in my sig, only in a form more "reader friendly"), but first I want to see more of where it might lead to, and if I have time to commit to it fully (Real life can be a handicap). if you wish to learn more, our group made a little wiki for the campaign (and i have another one behind the scenes for my DM notes). however, we're on a break at the moment (I had nearly not time to DM in the past few months), but may return soon. This is why I got back to working on it part time.


Jornophelanthas;14774756]Here are a few scenarios:

1. The Lost Children and the Unholy Bargain
The original Masters who enslaved the many races of the Islands were powerful beings who gathered many different races from different worlds/planes, and altered some of those to better suit their purposes. The Islander dwarves' ancestors happened to be from the same world where the Masters had settled.
Thousands of years ago, the Masters sought to conquer and enslave the continent that would later become home to the human Empire. The dwarves, as the most advanced race on that continent, managed to seal a terrible pact with the Masters. The dwarves were to relinquish all their firstborn children beneath a certain age to the Masters (who would raise them as their slaves and laborers), and in exchange, the Masters would never lay eyes on the other continent again for as long as a descendant of the lost children still served them.
The Masters took the dwarven children, raised and slightly modified them and put them to work. These became the Islander dwarves. True to their word, the Masters never again returned to the other continent.
The original dwarves maintained records of the terrible deal with the alien Masters, which became a black page in their history. They keep it a racial secret, vowing to never tell any outsiders out of shame for their ancestors. The original dwarven race fell into depression and decline after losing their entire youngest generation. The survivors and their descendants (calling themselves the "Secondborn") felt great shame and guilt, and questioned their worthiness as a race. They were eventually surpassed in greatness by the race of humans, and they have been content to serve this younger race's Empire humbly, placing their faith in the human Virtues, because the Secondborn dwarves had squandered its own virtue, in their eyes. These became the Empire dwarves.
The humans never learned of the dwarves' black history, and they have no memory of the event itself, as they were little more than primitive cavedwellers when it happened. Present-day human scholars have wondered about the uncanny resemblance between Empire dwarves and Islander dwarves, but they have few leads to go on. The Empire dwarves are not talking, and the Islander dwarves are clueless.
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The resurgence of the Islander dwarves has caused great turmoil among the Empire dwarves' historians and spiritual leaders. Some argue that if the descendants of the Lost Children (or "the Firstborn") had survived, could the unspeakable debt of their race perhaps be repaid by welcoming them back into the fold? Others say that the Islander dwarves must never learn of the unholy bargain, and that they must be left to their own devices so that they will not be sullied by the Secondborn dwarves' unworthiness. Finally, a faction of doomsayers is clamoring for attention, warning that the ancient pact is now void, for no descendant of the Firstborn dwarves now serves the alien Masters, and the Masters could well return to enslave ALL races of the world.
This is a VERY intriguing idea, :smallamused: and has a lot of place for the PCs to interact with. This can involve the humans in an itneresting way as well. This has a lot of potential! thanks! i need to mull this over...


2. The Return of the Ancient Masters
When the Masters were overthrown by their slaves (who would later become the Island Races), they vowed to have their revenge on them one day. Although their power was broken, a small group of these incredibly powerful beings managed to escape with only a small trove of magical artifacts and a sizable crew of loyalist dwarven slaves. They fled on the other large continent of the world.
There, they found the race of humans, who were fast-breeding, powerful and intelligent, but still in a state of infancy as a race. They saw great potential in these primitive humans, and saw in them the instrument for their revenge.
They sent out their dwarven servants to teach the fledgling humans about technology, magic, law and organization, all in exchange for worshipping the Masters as their gods. They adopted the name "Virtues" for this, and the dwarves became their acolytes and prophets.
The humans were eager to learn and to turn knowledge into power. Their new Empire swiftly grew, and became the most advanced society in the world. The "Virtues" oversaw all this from their hidden sanctuaries in secluded places where only dwarves were allowed, and bided their time until the Empire was large and powerful enough to strike back at the island remains of their old home.
The Empire dwarves are held in high esteem by the humans, because they stand closer to the Virtues than any human may ever hope to be. However, the Virtues teach that the dwarves are a servant race, so positions of leadership and influence are not deemed suitable for them. The humans have an organized religion of the Virtues that produces powerful clerics, but even their mightiest priest has never laid eyes upon the Virtues themselves.
The Empire dwarves are faithful servants of both the Virtues and the Empire, as they are descended from loyalist slaves, and were perhaps even further "modified" to ensure their faithfulness and servitude. Only those dwarves who directly serve with the Virtues are afforded any real knowledge of the Virtues' nature, of course. The dwarves who serve the Empire as warriors, advisors and administrators are simply devout followers of the Virtues. However, all Empire dwarves tend to be more fanatic followers of the Virtues than any human, firm supporters of the Empire's expansion in the Islands region, and they view the Islander dwarves with disgust, considering them degenerates.
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Any Empire dwarf willingly fraternizing with any Islander dwarves is deemed a traitor and a degenerate, and will be killed on sight by the Empire. (This is a measure originating from the Virtues themselves to ensure the secrecy of their true nature.) Recently, the Empire has founded a special inquisition with the sole purpose of policing the contacts between Empire dwarves and Islanders, and protecting the Empire from infiltration by Islander dwarves (especially those pretending to be Empire dwarves). Any Islander dwarf near Empire holdings will therefore gain their interest. This secret police is the exception to the rule: it is led by an elite council of Empire dwarves, but all their enforcers are humans.
an interesting idea, a bit similar to the one mentioned in an earlier post, but more fleshed out. However, The Virtues are already an established part of my world- partly they are ideals to live up to, partly they are a sort of angelic beings, partly a sort of great magical force... but an infiltration of a Master, perhaps masquerading as a new Virtue might work. As in the previous idea, I need to think this over.
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thanks you all for contributing thoughts, comments and creative ideas! I'd love to hear more, maybe combine some stuff and make this a more interesting and appealing point of interest in the setting. thanks a lot! :smallsmile:

Egiam
2013-02-26, 05:59 AM
You said that many mines and citadels were flooded with the Breaking. Is it possible that some settlements were strongly enough built and deep enough underground that they survived and continue to operate trapped under the oceans? I envision some sort of Gollumesque Hawaiian fire dwarves living on algae growing near underwater volcanos. Perhaps they guard the secrets and treasures of the old days.

caden_varn
2013-02-26, 07:46 AM
OK, some other ideas which might be a bit more interacty: (yes, that is a word, honest)
The 'Power behind the throne'. The dwarves seem to be subservient, with the humans occupying all the positions of authority, but every human leader, be they military, religious or political has a dwarven adviser whispering in his ear. The Empire dwarven race are controlled by a central shadowy authority. Each young dwarf is observed by the dwarven elders - the ones deemed suitable are groomed for positions of influence, trained by an existing dwarven adviser on how to influence their human 'masters', and given a mentor to 'suggest' what to influence them do. As these dwarves rise through the ranks, they learn more about the conspiracy to use the humans.
Dwarves who are judged unsuitable or untrustworthy for such delicate work are assigned to more menial tasks, and the higher ranking dwarves will ensure that they are not promoted to positions of responsibility where they may endanger the hold on the empire. Wherever possible, the work is something that suits the dwarf in question. For the occasional dwarf who threatens to disrupt the work - well, this cannot be allowed, and some way is found to 'remove' them - either to effective exile, or killed.

Another possibility is a minor variant of my original idea. The dwarves who found the humans initially were normal island dwarves. They taught the humans technology and civilisation, and were revered by the humans for it.
However, unknown to either the humans or the dwarves, the humans were the debased descendants of the abominations (or otherwise tainted by them), and living near that taint over time pushed the dwarves to slip into their old ways of subservience. The humans still honour the dwarves for their teachings, but the dwarves seem to be more comfortable in a subservient role, so are used as teachers, advisors etc.

Now that the Empire has come to the islands, those island dwarves who have spent a lot of time in contact with the humans are starting to show the same effect. Even those who were initially leaders of resistance against the humans have slowly become less antagonistic and more servile the more contact they have with the humans.
The humans are not really aware of this effect - they expect the dwarves to be subservient. The islanders are more likely to notice it as their neighbours behaviour changes.

An issue with this is that it does not really suggest a reason for the higher Int of empire dwarves. There would also need to be some way for the players to think about investigating/blocking the effect.
Now, if the original dwarves had this effect, they (or more likely someone else) must have found a way to suppress the effect to get the dwarves to revolt initially. This could be hinted at in the legends of the original rebellion, giving the players somewhere to start.

Jornophelanthas
2013-02-26, 08:35 AM
so many cool suggestions in such a short time! thanks a lot people! you got some interesting ideas in mind, let me respond and discuss...

[1. The Lost Children and the Unholy Bargain]

This is a VERY intriguing idea, :smallamused: and has a lot of place for the PCs to interact with. This can involve the humans in an itneresting way as well. This has a lot of potential! thanks! i need to mull this over...
Thank you for the praise.


[2. The Return of the Ancient Masters]

an interesting idea, a bit similar to the one mentioned in an earlier post, but more fleshed out. However, The Virtues are already an established part of my world- partly they are ideals to live up to, partly they are a sort of angelic beings, partly a sort of great magical force... but an infiltration of a Master, perhaps masquerading as a new Virtue might work. As in the previous idea, I need to think this over.
Three comments here:

- I wrote this scenario while the previous similar suggestion had not yet appeared in this thread. If this is any indication, this scenario may be a fairly predictable one, and it may also cross your players' minds at some point (whether you choose to have it be the truth or not). I guess it may be a common thought pattern for people to surmise "Hey, what if Ancient Enemy A and Current Enemy B are actually the SAME THING!?" This may be reason for you not to walk this path (in order to avoid cliché), or conversely, it may convince you to walk this path all the more (because it aligns well with a tried and true storytelling device on an unconscious level).

- Having one of the Masters masquerade as a new Virtue (suggesting this is recent, i.e. a long time after the Breaking in your setting, perhaps even in the present day) poses the problem that is can offer no explanation for the presence of dwarves on the human continent. Having the Masters masquerading as Virtues from the very start of the human Empire explains why there are dwarves (i.e. they brought them with them). Having a Master rise as a "new Virtue" rising to prominence in the present-day does not. Finally, having a Master posing as a Virtue may be a nice ruse and storyline for the short term, but there is no way such a Master could fool the real Virtues for any length of time (more than a century or so) if the Virtues are truly powerful and all-knowing extraplanar beings. (No deity in a D&D setting, no matter how passive or benevolent will allow its powerbase to be eroded or usurped.)

- Perhaps the idea of a Master posing as a new Virtue could be combined with the "Lost Children, Unholy Bargain" scenario? If/when the Empire dwarves learn of this deceit, this could provide them with even more moral quandaries, especially if Islander dwarves are involved in unmasking the Master somehow. Especially if the disguised Master/"Virtue" is cruel enough to acquire the devotion of the Empire dwarves and gains a following of fanatical dwarven zealots (who have unwittingly become what the Empire dwarves' ancestors have sold their children for to avoid).

Xeratos
2013-02-26, 09:40 AM
actually, there was one continent where the masters lived, along withtheir created races, that got broken up. there is another continent where the humans live, along with the Empire dwarves, quite far far away

Whoops, guess I was operating on some misinformation and assumptions there.


The empire secretly controlled by a Masters (or a few) is an idea that came to my mind as well. however, that would put the Empire strictly on the "irredeemable evil" side to most islanders, while i wish to make the Empire a more "shades of grey" power (even if they are currently, partly rightly so, quite vilified).

By that logic, the islanders, who were at one point also enslaved to this Master Power, are also irredeemably evil. The ultimate goal of the campaign could be to break that hold over the Empire so that the humans could live freely. I do see a clash with your religious structure if they are in direct opposition to this power though, and as firmly entrenched in society as it sounds. Also, I mean, come on, you named your bad guys "the Empire." Who didn't think lightsabers and storm troopers (and I don't even like Star Wars)?



Third: Viva la resistance! Somewhere deep in the outlands of the Empire are the freedom fighters seeking to break the yoke of oppression that has been cast over them for years. Do they even know themselves the true source of evil guiding the humans?
The focus of the campaign is on the Islands so far. there is a whole lot to occupy the PCs here. They might get sea worthy enough ships and navigational charts to the continent of the Empire sometime (a serious adventure in itself, as the charts are a highly guarded secret), but their continent is not yet mapped, planned or much detailed. who knows what the future might bring?

This doesn't necessarily follow. If there's already a resistance organization set up on the main land, when the Empire hoists sails and sets out to... I guess I don't know, conquer? loot? the islands, whatever their goal is, the resistance might look over and say, "Hey, allies. Allies who are smugglers and pirates. People who can disrupt the Empire's waterborn trade and supply lines, who can bring us weapons and food. Let's send some people over there and see if we can negotiate to work together against the Empire by trading them some manpower and knowledge of their enemies."


I don't know what Wind Waker is

The Legend of Zelda: the Wind Waker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_zelda_wind_waker) This game put a very heavy emphasis on sailing your small, one-man boat across open seas (very time consuming) between various islands as you try to accomplish your goal of saving your sister and, eventually, breaking the power of the series' reoccurring antagonist.


if you wish to learn more, our group made a little wiki for the campaign (and i have another one behind the scenes for my DM notes).

Link to it? I would love to read more about this setting, and perhaps propose an idea that fits better into what you've already established when I'm not making assumptions about the shapes of your continents and the history of the people living on them.

Kol Korran
2013-02-26, 02:11 PM
By that logic, the islanders, who were at one point also enslaved to this Master Power, are also irredeemably evil. The ultimate goal of the campaign could be to break that hold over the Empire so that the humans could live freely. I do see a clash with your religious structure if they are in direct opposition to this power though, and as firmly entrenched in society as it sounds. Also, I mean, come on, you named your bad guys "the Empire." Who didn't think lightsabers and storm troopers (and I don't even like Star Wars)?

The Empire starts out as the bad guys, but I intend to get them to be more seen as ones of grey/ complex morals later on. But yes, choosing the name "The Empire" (Tm) was intentional with that connotation in mind partly. Also, it sticks best to the memory. Though I appreciate my players greatly, I need to keep things simple (at least to begin with).

Are the islanders irredimably evil? Some in the Empire thinks so (mostly due to their "tainted" witch magic), but the islanders consider themselves quite free, and thus not good, not evil, not influenced by any other power. (an ideal that is deeply important to them, a core concept of their culture). If however they might learn that the Empire is ruled by a Master or it's kin? and that the Empire goes along with it? then any chance of cooperation might be lost due to deep ingrained fears, prejusidces and racial memory (or whatever).

However, the idea that the islanders might try to FREE the Empire people of the Master's hold might be intriguing, and a very, very ,very difficult adventure/ set of adventures.

or it might spark an all out war. all is good. :smallbiggrin:


This doesn't necessarily follow. If there's already a resistance organization set up on the main land, when the Empire hoists sails and sets out to... I guess I don't know, conquer? loot? the islands, whatever their goal is, the resistance might look over and say, "Hey, allies. Allies who are smugglers and pirates. People who can disrupt the Empire's waterborn trade and supply lines, who can bring us weapons and food. Let's send some people over there and see if we can negotiate to work together against the Empire by trading them some manpower and knowledge of their enemies."
Hmmmm... if we go with this idea it might work, but I think it should come quite a bit later in the campaign, when the PCs might make a name for themselves. A I need to think about this. this is an interesting idea since it brings more complexity into the very unified looking Empire, and a leverage the PCs might use. also, it might bring them to face "good" humans... how will they deal with them? can they trust them?

intriguing... :smallwink: thanks for the idea.


Link to it? I would love to read more about this setting, and perhaps propose an idea that fits better into what you've already established when I'm not making assumptions about the shapes of your continents and the history of the people living on them.
The setting is not complete, it's left intentionally with quite a few holes to fill (I was hoping the players would jump in, but no luck so far). It also leaves me quite a few room to add things when I think of them.

The Withclings Isles campaign wiki (http://witchlingisles.pbworks.com/w/page/50238619/FrontPage) (It';s our whole groups wiki, not including DM info.) a few notes though:
1) we've played only 5 sessions before we went on hiatus due to RL not giving me any time. There are summaries of the first 4 sessions, and a brief of the 4th, will be filled out later. but expect no updates for awhile.
2) A lot of the reasoning behind things might not be apparent. I will detail that in a DM's log in the future most likely. I keep notes. I'm a good note taker.
3) suggestion on how to follow the pages:
- what is the campaign about? (for a general feel)
- things every islander should know (for a general overview of things. I wrote the page for the players that didn't want to go through all the fluff. the basic facts)
- from here you can go to two places: for more fluff and info about the world- go the the wind singers' tales (last link in the side bar). for info about rules, options and the like, (including some fluff and info of races, classes and cultures) go to the players' campaign handbook.
- or you could read the session summaries and get more of a feeling to the world. note though that the first 5 sessions were sort of "intro" adventures to the campaign, introducing several themes, rules, antagonists and hooks.

it's quite a bit of reading, but you expressed interest, so I assume you want this? again- nothing is very original, I just try to piece things in an interesting way.

thanks for contributing! I'll think over your suggestions.

Frozen_Feet
2013-02-26, 07:46 PM
Continental dwarves are time-displaced offsping of the islander dwarves, and ancestors of the human race. Essentially, the whole Empire is a shadow cast through time from (one possible) future, and the whole expedition to the Islands is meant to ensure that the past will remain unchanged. Basically, humankind venerates dwarves as their grandfathers and mothers. They are working on memories of things that have yet to happen for the rest world, in one great time loop / self-fulfilling prophecy.

There are lots of ways you can twist this. Perhaps ontological inertia means the Empire's existence is not dependant on events following the same pattern as before, meaning repeating the loop is not necessary. Maybe the Empire's records are faulty, and something unexpected happens. Maybe there are sects dedicated to changing history so that the Empire will be erased from existence. Maybe time is recursive, meaning encountering the Islands leads to a civil war among humans leading to creation of several slave races leading to breaking of the human continent... I hope you see where this is going.

Yes, I've been playing too much Chrono Trigger lately.

Kol Korran
2013-02-28, 04:33 AM
Continental dwarves are time-displaced offsping of the islander dwarves, and ancestors of the human race. Essentially, the whole Empire is a shadow cast through time from (one possible) future, and the whole expedition to the Islands is meant to ensure that the past will remain unchanged. Basically, humankind venerates dwarves as their grandfathers and mothers. They are working on memories of things that have yet to happen for the rest world, in one great time loop / self-fulfilling prophecy.

There are lots of ways you can twist this. Perhaps ontological inertia means the Empire's existence is not dependant on events following the same pattern as before, meaning repeating the loop is not necessary. Maybe the Empire's records are faulty, and something unexpected happens. Maybe there are sects dedicated to changing history so that the Empire will be erased from existence. Maybe time is recursive, meaning encountering the Islands leads to a civil war among humans leading to creation of several slave races leading to breaking of the human continent... I hope you see where this is going.

Yes, I've been playing too much Chrono Trigger lately.

Though the idea is cool, we don't much like time shenanigans in our games. They often require a certain level of railroad manipulation to work, they don't work for us. Plus not quite fitting a pirates theme, more towards science fiction? We prefer not mixing genres too much.
Thanks for the idea though!

Kami2awa
2013-02-28, 11:35 AM
The original continent didn't break up to form the islands; that's a distortion of the truth. The truth is that the sea level rose.

Once, the Empire and the continent that became the Islands were one land mass, and the dwarves spread across it. The two groups were isolated when the Great Flood came.

This means that, under the water, are the lost, drowned cities of the Antediluvian dwarves...