Erudite "Convert Spell to Power"

[shaga]

I have been looking on the forums about the Erudite variant feature "Convert Spell to Power" and I don't see anyone even mention the large XP cost of learning a new power/spell for an Erudite (20 x Erudite lvl). Is there a way to remove that cost that I haven't found? Because otherwise its a good feature but with minimum xp costs like 60xp-1st lvl, 100x-2nd lvl, 140xp-3rd lvl, 180xp-4th lvl and so on. I don't think an Erudite can take a lot of new spell/powers at low-mid levels. Maybe at higher lvls but then he will have to pay higher cost for lower powers/spells.

[Psyren]

It doesn't come up a lot because XP costs aren't much of a limiting factor (except in the case of gigantic expenditures like Wish.) The common adage is "XP is a river" - which basically means that, if you fall behind the rest of the party, you will actually gain XP faster than they will and catch back up, so it's okay to spend it. (Particularly when the thing you're spending it on exponentially increases your overall abilities.)

In the case of the Erudite, a middling XP cost is much less valuable than a feat (Expanded Knowledge.)

[mattie_p]

If you look at the XP costs, they really are not out of line compared with the creation of scrolls or other magic items that casters might be interested in making. And the utility of knowing, at the end of the game, every power and every spell, makes it worth it. Especially because once a power is known you don't have to learn it from a spellbook every day, it is just known.

[Spuddles]

I have been looking on the forums about the Erudite variant feature "Convert Spell to Power" and I don't see anyone even mention the large XP cost of learning a new power/spell for an Erudite (20 x Erudite lvl). Is there a way to remove that cost that I haven't found? Because otherwise its a good feature but with minimum xp costs like 60xp-1st lvl, 100x-2nd lvl, 140xp-3rd lvl, 180xp-4th lvl and so on. I don't think an Erudite can take a lot of new spell/powers at low-mid levels. Maybe at higher lvls but then he will have to pay higher cost for lower powers/spells.

Knowing a lot of powers at low levels isn't really worth it, anyway, since you have about as much versatility as a wilder until level 5 or 7.

At that point, a few hundred xp here and there just isn't a huge deal.

[shaga]

So, just to compare it with my build, let me ask another question. On general, how many spells/powers per spell/power lvl a typical Erudite will learn this way?

Lets put a top limit of 3rd lvl power/spell, since that's the maximum power level the character I am building will get.

So far I have 8 potential 1st lvl spells/powers, 6 2nd lvl spells/powers and 5 3rd lvl spells/powers. That will cost me 1780xp, if I manage to learn all the spells/powers at minimum Erudite level.

[Gavinfoxx]

First, read this:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872242/Experience_is_a_River

[Venusaur]

Thought Bottle

[mattie_p]

Thought Bottle

This way lies madness.

[Psyren]

Lets put a top limit of 3rd lvl power/spell, since that's the maximum power level the character I am building will get.

Remember that the maximum level you can learn a spell or power is one below your maximum innate power level (from the general psion list.) So if your maximum power level is 3, your maximum spell level will be 2.

If you're stopping at level 5-7 I wouldn't learn more than a couple of spells, to be honest.

[Big Fau]

A 9th level Erudite can skip leveling up to 10th and sink all of that XP into learning 50 new powers/spells. The XP cost isn't mentioned because it's a non-issue, and can actually help you out in the long run.

[Spuddles]

Remember that the maximum level you can learn a spell or power is one below your maximum innate power level (from the general psion list.) So if your maximum power level is 3, your maximum spell level will be 2.

If you're stopping at level 5-7 I wouldn't learn more than a couple of spells, to be honest.

The maximum spell or discipline power you can learn is your maximum power level -1. The general psion/wilder powers have no such clause.

[Psyren]

The maximum spell or discipline power you can learn is your maximum power level -1. The general psion/wilder powers have no such clause.

Yes, that's what I said.

[Getsugaru]

If you're really so worried about xp costs for spell-to-power learning, then just Do the Wight Thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177889). It's the 16th from the top. :smallamused:

Frankly, I'm surprised you didn't mention it yourself, Psyren (You've got the link to it in your sig...).:smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Frankly, I'm surprised you didn't mention it yourself, Psyren (You've got the link to it in your sig...).:smalltongue:

I try to keep abreast of cheese, but I tend to stop short of actually recommending it. (Hence why I also didn't mention Thought Bottle :smalltongue:)

[Spuddles]

Yes, that's what I said.

Ah, I parsed it wrong, due to the funny placement of the paranthetical.

[Gazzien]

I feel like I've heard of or seen a trick somewhere to let Erudites learn ninth-level spells as powers before Epic levels... could any of you confirm / deny that?

[VGLordR2]

I feel like I've heard of or seen a trick somewhere to let Erudites learn ninth-level spells as powers before Epic levels... could any of you confirm / deny that?

The trick I've seen is to trade the Erudite's second bonus feat for Mantled Erudite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), and choose the Magic Mantle. The Magic Mantle allows you to treat spells and powers as the same thing, which some people believe includes learning spells as if they were powers. I'm not too sure about the RAW myself.

[Psyren]

The trick I've seen is to trade the Erudite's second bonus feat for Mantled Erudite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), and choose the Magic Mantle. The Magic Mantle allows you to treat spells and powers as the same thing, which some people believe includes learning spells as if they were powers. I'm not too sure about the RAW myself.

The step you're missing is trading their OTHER bonus feat (i.e. the psicrystal) for Favored Discipline. Thus, a Magic Mantle Favored Discipline Erudite treats "Magic" as his favored discipline.

It's extremely cheesy and I don't recommend even mentioning it at a table. Magic Mantle's intent was clearly just to enable transparency in campaigns where Psionics Is Different.

Another option is the Mind Mage PrC from Dragon Magazine; IIRC, it can heighten powers - getting you 10th-level powers and thus able to learn 9th-level discipline powers.

[Spuddles]

Another option is the Mind Mage PrC from Dragon Magazine; IIRC, it can heighten powers - getting you 10th-level powers and thus able to learn 9th-level discipline powers.

I was going to mention this (mind mage can be found here (http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/prc_mind_mage.htm)), but heighten can't heighten spells past 9th level.

Which I just realized, since mind mage is my go-to method for getting spells at power level in my StP erudite's repertoire.

[TuggyNE]

I try to keep abreast of cheese, but I tend to stop short of actually recommending it. (Hence why I also didn't mention Thought Bottle :smalltongue:)

This right here sums up my philosophy toward cheese rather nicely. Thumbs up! (I think I'll add it to my extended quote sig, in fact, if you don't mind.)

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Another option is the Mind Mage PrC from Dragon Magazine; IIRC, it can heighten powers - getting you 10th-level powers and thus able to learn 9th-level discipline powers.

And you say you stop short of recommending cheese!


Which I just realized, since mind mage is my go-to method for getting spells at power level in my StP erudite's repertoire.

That's what Earth Spell is for, of course.

[Getsugaru]

I was going to mention this (mind mage can be found here (http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/prc_mind_mage.htm)), but heighten can't heighten spells past 9th level.

Which I just realized, since mind mage is my go-to method for getting spells at power level in my StP erudite's repertoire.

Yeah, I was avoiding that myself, but for a good reason. If you're an STP Erudite/Mind Mage, depending on how your DM reads the Erudite Manifester Level Limitation, either it screws you by boosting your Manifester level too high and turning you into a Psion (unless you do Erudite 13/Mind Mage 7), or it makes you insanely powerful, even without the psionic dreadnought cheesiness...

That's what Earth Spell is for, of course.

...or Sanctum Spell :smallamused:...