Handling Player Skill Gap

[Babale]

Hi guys!

I'm DMing a campaign for a number of players; its been going on for quite some time. The party is currently level 9, mostly, with a couple of exceptions. We started at level 1, almost a year ago. Quick rundown on the characters:

Drow Rogue/Ranger/Shadowdancer, level 9. Veteren (2e, maybe AD&D) player. Got Drow with no LA.
Human Swordsage, level 9. Rather new player.
Lizardfolk Druid, level 9. Very new player; got Lizardfolk with no LA.
Half-Ogre Fighter/Chaostician, level 8. Reduced to 1 LA. Highest system mastery in the group.
Human Favored Soul, level 8. Started late, so lower level. Another old-school vet.
Kobold Sorcerer/Sandshaper, level 7. Started late, so lower level.

Now, to the problem. The players are all enjoying the game and roleplaying. Their characters aren't particularly optimized, but certainly playable. Based on the majority of players (The Rogue, Druid, Swordsage, and Favored Soul at least) I'd say the target optimization level is PHB style Meatshield, Blaster, Trapper, and Healbot. They didn't pick those roles, of course, but that's about how optimized they are. The Kobold only just joined, but he seems to fit into the group's level so far, even though he's a little more optimized. He, at least, has his weaknesses (such as 25 HP at level 7). The problem, sadly, is the Half-Ogre.

Before I go on, let me just say that the player is absolutely NOT trying to break the game. He picked Half-Ogre because he had a good backstory for it, not because he wanted to Win D&D. And his backstory certainly is working. Say what you will about the Stormwind Fallacy, he's trying his best to roleplay while not really optimizing at all. The problem is, low optimization for him is impossibly complex for the rest of the party.

At the current level, the Ogre has much more HP than anyone else in the party (which, as the meatshield, is to be expected) and almost 10 AC more than anyone else (which I suppose is also to be expected, even if it IS a major, MAJOR pain). The real problem, however, is his offensive ability. He can kill almost anything in his CR range or 2-3 levels above in a round or two. He can do more damage in a round than the entire rest of the party can manage in three, and that only gets worse when he's buffed. An encounter that's challenging for him is pretty much guaranteed to kill the other PCs, and one that's challenging for them is a milk run for him. As an example, last session the party ran into a miniboss; an Elder Black Pudding (CR 12). The Ogre beat the crap out of it using an improvised weapon in 3 rounds. Sure, he took some damage, but pretty much every round went like this:

Ogre: I whack it for 145 damage!
Druid: I do nothing.
Swashbuckler: I do nothing.
Sorcerer: I cast Summon Monster I, next round I'll send the cat to check for traps.
Rogue: I make a Disable Device check on the other side of the dungeon.

and so on. He soloed an encounter 3 CR above the party level and 5 above his own, an encounter that was meant to be a difficult fight for the entire party.

Once again, he isn't trying to break the game. I've seen him make optimized builds, and this one is simply not. So I don't want to punish him, but at the same time, this problem needs to be fixed. I've noticed that he's too powerful; some of the other party members have noticed that too; and after last session, he came to me to ask if his character needs to be nerfed. We agreed to do something about it, but I'm at a bit of a loss as to what.

So far, my only idea is to return the full Half-Ogre LA, and add some more on top of that. While I let some of the other players get away with LA+1 or +2 races, none of them have the system mastery to become unbalanced with that. This player, with +1 LA, accidentally broke the game. But I'm not sure if it's fair to impose extra LA on him just for being good, and wanted to see what the Playground thought. Please! Help us!

[Aegis013]

First and foremost... What on earth is a Chaostician?

[Babale]

Prestige Class from the Planar Handbook, focused on... Well, Chaos. They become in tune with Chaos, basically. The Ogre is Chaotic Neutral, serves Tempus, and also has Demonic ties... A few Demonic feats (which are really not optimized, for this player).

[Srasy]

How does he deal with these situations
Will saves
Entangle
Flying Enemies
Mobs of Enemies
Bad Terrain
And 5 by 5 spaces
Also how does he have so high AC

[Aegis013]

Ok, I see it. It doesn't look particularly strong. (Especially since at present he could only have 2 levels of it)

Do you know how the player is doing so much damage?

[ArcturusV]

Well... this probably sounds crazy but my solution to a situation like this, if it came up? I'd go to the players of the other characters say, "Hey... seems your not doing much. That the case, feel like you're not doing anything and just along for the ride?"

Player says Yes:

"Well then... tell me... in your mind's eye, what would you think would be a really cool, fun moment for your character and something that, if confronted with it, you'd just jump at the chance."

Then start sprinkling those things in scenes.

I mean ideally it doesn't matter who's doing a lot of the heavy lifting. If the Half-Ogre is carrying the party, that's fine. As long as everyone else feels like they SOMETIMES at least have their Shining Moment of Glory and get to do something they think is cool/really effective.

Otherwise it's not really a problem.

[Babale]

How does he deal with these situations
Will saves
Entangle
Flying Enemies
Mobs of Enemies
Bad Terrain
And 5 by 5 spaces
Also how does he have so high AC

His Will save is +6, which isn't great, but not terribad. Nowhere near the Druid's, but on par with the Rogue. Thanks to his Cloak of Resistance that he picked up for quite a markup (I roll for modifiers when buying items, but he still chose it). Part of that is knowing what items are worth it. And I'm scared to have a caster Charm or Dominate him, because he'd likely wipe the party.

Entangle? His Reflex save isn't bad, so he might make the save. Even if not, with his strength? It would barely slow him down.

Flying enemies aren't too bad for him; he has a couple Potions of Fly left, not to mention his throwing hammer. And flying enemies make everyone else useless, too, except the casters.

Mobs of enemies? He takes out 2-3 a turn. Better than most of the others. I guess the Sorcerer might do better, and mobs would let the Druid's Crowd Control shine.

He doesn't charge so much as power attack for ridiculous damage, so bad terrain doesn't hurt him too bad.

5 by 5 spaces? They'd annoy him I guess, but how many fights can you have in 5 by 5 spaces?

As for his AC, he has a shield (that he uses on and off), natural armor from Demonic feats, and his fullplate. The next highest AC would be the Swashbuckler or Rogue, both of whom only have Dex and light armor. I guess buffed with Barkskin, they probably get close to catching up.

There certainly are situations when he's not the most useful character (the PCs once fought a T-Rex and he had to sit that entire fight out after failing his Will save vs the T-Rex's homebrewed fear-inducing Roar) but as a whole, he dominates encounters.

[Babale]

Ok, I see it. It doesn't look particularly strong. (Especially since at present he could only have 2 levels of it)

Do you know how the player is doing so much damage?

We roll for stats in my group; he had an 18. Put it in Strength. I let any player take 2 points off of any 1 stat and add to another, one time, at creation (this is to encourage people to stick with a character and avoid death, since its for the first character of the campaign only). He took his Dex down from 15 to 13 IIRC and started with 20 Str. Add racial modifiers, a level up bonus, and an item and he's at 30 str. He full power attacks with a two handed, large sized weapon for ridiculous damage.

He DOES use a Minotaur Greathammer, which is the cheesiest part of his build. But when he first rolled up his character, I told him "no" to so many things that I decided to let him keep the hammer. And its not the crits; he hasn't crit in 5 or 6 sessions, although he rolled quite a few 20s in a row last session against a golem. Its just the ridiculous two handed power attacks. The hammer might need to get hit with a nerf-stick, though.


Well... this probably sounds crazy but my solution to a situation like this, if it came up? I'd go to the players of the other characters say, "Hey... seems your not doing much. That the case, feel like you're not doing anything and just along for the ride?"

Player says Yes:

"Well then... tell me... in your mind's eye, what would you think would be a really cool, fun moment for your character and something that, if confronted with it, you'd just jump at the chance."

Then start sprinkling those things in scenes.

I mean ideally it doesn't matter who's doing a lot of the heavy lifting. If the Half-Ogre is carrying the party, that's fine. As long as everyone else feels like they SOMETIMES at least have their Shining Moment of Glory and get to do something they think is cool/really effective.

Otherwise it's not really a problem.

Everyone DOES have their moments, like when the Rogue sprung a trap on himself multiple times but evaded all the damage without breaking a sweat, but out-of-combat shining moments (especially ones that come up due to DM fiat) aren't nearly as much fun. And I like keeping the world real and letting the dice decide fate, generally. I'd really rather not fiat in moments of awesome for everyone.

[ArcturusV]

Well, I don't mean "Fiat Awesome Moments"...

Like an example that came up. I had a guy who wasn't having fun in fights, and didn't really get into it as a Rogue. I talked to him one day and he mentioned the reason he wasn't into it so much was that there was a lack of "Stunt" stuff to do. He wanted to move around combat like a Hollywood Fencer. Jumping off balconies, swinging on ropes, etc. And it was just a matter of adding those details into encounter spaces that let him do what he wanted that made all the difference. I didn't fudge anything. Just added more (And usually logical) detail to the scenes that the rogue would key off of.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

How does he deal with these situations
Will saves
Entangle
Flying Enemies
Mobs of Enemies
Bad Terrain
And 5 by 5 spaces
Also how does he have so high ACAdding to this list:
Illusions/illusory defenses
Those who target touch AC
"Puzzle" monsters who can't just be beaten with an improvised weapon

Before I go any further, do the players have a problem, or just you designing encounters? If it's just you, use the above help. If not...

It seems like you have your standard 1 trick pony problem. Mister Half Ogre can smash things in combat, and that's about it. If you want an in-game fix, re-shaping the campaign to include more elements where he doesn't shine so hard is probably the simplest way to go.

That said, I see player skill variance as a majoritarian issue. If everyone but one player is low-op, then the higher-op player should take great pains not to outshine everyone. Funnily enough T1s and T2s are also best at this, as one can make them highly effective support and utility characters that don't steal the spotlight as far as numbers go. You can see this with the kobold sorcerer.

On the other hand, if it was just one noob struggling in a group of optimizers, then the optimizers should help bring the noob to their level. If the noob refuses help and struggles, though, it's not on the rest of the group to power down. It gets a bit fuzzier when the split of lower and higher op players is more even, but in any event it can get talked through.

[Babale]

Well, that stuff does exist. The players all have badass moments like that; the Swashbuckler leaped off a railing, across a big open room, and to the balcony on the other side to stab a kython in the face. The Rogue does badass stuff on a daily basis, except for when he rolls a natural 1 (which is probably half the time), etc. But while the Swashbuckler was doing his thang, the Ogre splatted a kython or 2 in one turn. Which really steals his thunder.

[Aegis013]

We roll for stats in my group; he had an 18. Put it in Strength. I let any player take 2 points off of any 1 stat and add to another, one time, at creation (this is to encourage people to stick with a character and avoid death, since its for the first character of the campaign only). He took his Dex down from 15 to 13 IIRC and started with 20 Str. Add racial modifiers, a level up bonus, and an item and he's at 30 str. He full power attacks with a two handed, large sized weapon for ridiculous damage.

He DOES use a Minotaur Greathammer, which is the cheesiest part of his build. But when he first rolled up his character, I told him "no" to so many things that I decided to let him keep the hammer. And its not the crits; he hasn't crit in 5 or 6 sessions, although he rolled quite a few 20s in a row last session against a golem. Its just the ridiculous two handed power attacks. The hammer might need to get hit with a nerf-stick, though.


Even if his weapon does 2d12, at 30 strength, full power attacking and Leap Attacking, even, should only give 2d12+20+27, a maximum noncrit of 94. How is he doing 140+?

[Scorponok]

I have a couple of these guys in my campaign. They do ridiculous amounts of damage, and have high AC so sometimes they seem invincible, and depending on the situation, they are pretty tough.

Some of my favorite things to do against them:

Ice Storm
If you have high enough sorcerers in your campaign, this can really hurt anyone if they are cast enough times. 2d6 blugeoning damage and 3d6 ice damage, and the people in the area need to make balance checks. Best part about this is it has NO SAVING THROW. They take the 5d6 damage, full stop.

Scorching Ray
This is a touch attack, and usually guys in heavy armor don't have good touch AC. Even a few level 4 sorcerers with this can hurt, assuming the sorcerers roll average. As with any good assassination attempt, be ready to lose a handful of sorcerers or two.

Phantasmal Killer
This can kill him if he fails one of the two saves, a will save and then a fort save. The will save he will probably fail, but even if he fails the subsequent fort save, he'll still take 3d6 damage. If you use the other books like Complete Arcane/Complete Mage, etc. you get other lower level spells of this like Phantasmal Strangler which don't kill, but still do damage.

Resilient Sphere
A mage hitting him with this effectively takes him out of the fight, as now he's surrounded in a bubble and the other party members have to start to not rely on him so much. I don't like using this a lot because the player essentially has to sit there until someone dispels it. I usually let the player inside escape with a 20 roll, just so they have something to do each round. (It's a house rule.)

Ray of Enfeeblement
Even low level casters can have this, and with a 1d6+1 STR drain, it can bring high strength characters down to a more manageable level. It's also a ranged touch attack, so if they go against several casters, one will most likely hit.

With so many level 9s in the party, it's fair to throw several higher level spellcasters at them, either from a rival party or even a mage's academy. Trust me, even two well placed mages with Phantasmal Killer and Ice Storm can really wreck a party, especially if they have elevation and greater invisibility.

[Babale]

Even if his weapon does 2d12, at 30 strength, full power attacking and Leap Attacking, even, should only give 2d12+20+27, a maximum noncrit of 94. How is he doing 140+?

3d6, not 2d12. But that was in a round, not in an attack; he gets two attacks per turn, after all.

As to the questions above, yes, it bothers the other PCs, many of whom have approached me about it, and yes, it makes it hard to balance encounters. And the PC roleplays his character very well, which means that its not like he isn't shining during diplomacy. Sure, he doesn't get to roll high on his Bluff checks, but he still gets to talk to people. And yes, there are times when he isn't very useful; a few sessions ago, the sneakier members of the team got to sneak into a Kython lair while he took a nap, for example. But still, any time there's combat, he tends to dominate. Occasionally, yes, his ability to hit isn't helpful. But I'm not about to make every encounter be a fight against flying casters who target Will saves. That's not fun for anyone, and doesn't make sense with the plot.

[Larkas]

Hitting/damaging/making life difficult for the PC

-Use monsters whose attacks target touch AC;

-Target non-AC defenses, such as saves (you said they were good, but there's no way they are better than his AC, at least according to what you're telling us);

-Use crowd control techniques (stuff like Grease, Obscuring Mist and Entangle);

-Use rough terrain.

Making hitting/damaging monsters harder for the PC

-Use invisibility/etherealness/blink/flight/anything that makes hitting the target that much harder;

-Use monsters with DR;

-Use ranged attackers (preferably combined with any of the above).

These are just some basic ideas.


We roll for stats in my group; he had an 18. Put it in Strength. I let any player take 2 points off of any 1 stat and add to another, one time, at creation (this is to encourage people to stick with a character and avoid death, since its for the first character of the campaign only). He took his Dex down from 15 to 13 IIRC and started with 20 Str. Add racial modifiers, a level up bonus, and an item and he's at 30 str. He full power attacks with a two handed, large sized weapon for ridiculous damage.

Just want to let you know that this is very irregular. Whatever you do, you shouldn't let anyone get anything higher than an unmodified 18 in any stat. It isn't much of an issue, but it shouldn't be done.

[Magnyr_Delorn]

Howdy Howdy!

I am the player of the half-ogre character. I am genuinely interested in getting my character under control, because it IS quite silly. While full power attacking, my attack bonus is +10/+5, and I deal 3d6+32. But Babale and I are at a loss as to what to do to rectify the situation. I think an issue we haven't addressed yet between the two of us I'm just going to throw out here is that I think in addition to character building, I think I am VASTLY smarter tactically than the rest of the group. I know all the little rules, get the best mileage out of 5 foot steps, know how much to power attack based on my target, etc. No one thing makes my character overpowered, but a whole bunch of things do.

Gonna grab dinner and be back.

[Slipperychicken]

Now, to the problem. The players are all enjoying the game and roleplaying. Their characters aren't particularly optimized, but certainly playable.

If this is the case, there is no real problem. But if you wish to challenge the Ogre, he too has his weaknesses. You're just too narrowly focused on the hp/AC/attack/damage game to see them.

He has poor Will and Reflex saves, no means of flight (unless the casters have something for him), no special vision types (Darkvision doesn't count), and he is melee, leaving him vulnerable to almost all CC, debuff, and defense spells. Illusions (including Mirror Image) should likewise mess him right up. Simply casting Grease on his beloved Greathammer should cause him big problems. His Touch AC is likely garbage, too.

Even in standard fantasy lore, big stupid monsters are countered by clever tricky magicians.

EDIT: If you don't want casters, surely there are monsters which have these kinds of abilities. Also, you could do a quick nerf on the Ogre by having him sword&board, cutting out much of his ridiculous damage.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I am curious is there any way you could post the half ogre players character stats?

I'd be interested to see his build especially if you could put up some of the others.. Just to see the system mastery gap.

[Babale]

I think you guys are missing the point. I have lots of things that can hurt him. Monsters that target AC, or monsters that are incorporeal; casters that target Will, traps that target reflex, things that are bigger than him and can grapple, things with a high DR, etc, etc, etc. The problem is that any of these things aren't just good against him, they're good against everyone; and he's going to have an easier time dealing with them then most, even if he tries not to metagame, due to experience. Instead, I'm looking for a way to bring him down to their level, while still keeping his character intact. He's playing a half-ogre very well, so I don't want to strip that from him. I just need to find a way to balance him.


Just want to let you know that this is very irregular. Whatever you do, you shouldn't let anyone get anything higher than an unmodified 18 in any stat. It isn't much of an issue, but it shouldn't be done.
Not to derail my own thread, but... I play a lower-powered game than most people on these forums are probably used too. We roll dice for stats, and IIRC the average point buy was 25, AFTER that change. Before, it was a 23 or so (a lot of players used it to even out one of their other stats, not their highest). Yeah, its unusual, but I wanted to give them something nice on their first characters in the campaign. If anyone rerolls for any reason, they won't get that treatment.

[Babale]

Sorry, I'm desperately trying to keep up with new posts :redface:


If this is the case, there is no real problem. But if you wish to challenge the Ogre, he too has his weaknesses. You're just too narrowly focused on the hp/AC/attack/damage game to see them.
That isn't the case; like I said, he's been targeted by, for example, a Tyrannosaur's Frightful Presence, which took him out of an entire fight. That's just one example; other times, his poor senses (compared to, say, the Rogue) hurt him, or his low reflex save made him eat a fireball trap. So its not like he's invincible, but I'm not about to have every single enemy group have a caster specifically made to combat him. That's unrealistic, and doesn't fit the setting at all.



EDIT: If you don't want casters, surely there are monsters which have these kinds of abilities. Also, you could do a quick nerf on the Ogre by having him sword&board, cutting out much of his ridiculous damage.That's part of the reason why I gave that Tyrannosaur his Roar ability. There have been other examples too; but since I'm not planning on never using a "big dumb brute" type creature again, or on including will-targeting monsters in every encounter, I want to bring him into line with the others. The Sword And Board idea is an interesting one; that would certainly reduce his damage output while still letting him fulfill his role as a Meatshield.


I am curious is there any way you could post the half ogre players character stats?

I'd be interested to see his build especially if you could put up some of the others.. Just to see the system mastery gap.
I'll ask the other players, and I'll let Magnyr post his own sheet if he wants.

[Invader]

How many levels of fighter/Chaostician do you have on top of half ogre and exactly what benefits are you giving for for half ogre for a +1 LA and what feats and equipment does he have?

[Scorponok]

Anytime a player asks me, can I have such and such a feat, or weapon, or backstory. I always ask them if it's going to be overpowered vs. the rest of the group. If the answer is yes, then I tell them that when people find out about it, his character will become a target.

Most players don't have a problem with this, and in fact, they might relish it. That is fair, if a player is outstanding in combat, that enemies would focus their energies in trying to stop them. And maybe that's what the campaign turns into: an unusually powerful half troll with friends that support him and make him stronger. Without his friends, he's not so strong, and without him, his friends aren't either.

Also, may I ask, what does LA mean? I see it in this post but don't know what it stands for.

[Invader]

Also, may I ask, what does LA mean? I see it in this post but don't know what it stands for.

Level Adjustment

[Babale]

Half-Ogre
(RoD p97)
+6 Str
–2 Dex
+2 Con
–2 Int
–2 Cha
Barbarian • Large Size
• 30’ Movement
• Darkvision 60’
• Level Adjustment +2
• +4 Natural Armor bonus to AC

That's the default Half-Ogre. I said that since I let the Lizardfolk have no LA, he can start with +1.

[Magnyr_Delorn]

Here's my sheet: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=437411

[Invader]

Idk, honestly it looks like you gave him every opportunity to build a purely str based power attack plus reduced his level adjustment and let him have one of the cheesiest weapons in the game.

That being said, give enemies miss chance, flight, some terrain features, etc. and it should be just fine without hampering your other players.

Also just curious, did burn a feat for the great hammer?
EDIT* I see that you did.

[Magnyr_Delorn]

The biggest solution that I see that will allow me to keep my character the way I want him to be(not sacrificing fun roleplay stuff like Half-ogre, Chaostician, etc) would be to fully reinstate the LA(but not retroactively, I don't want to lose levels, but I do want it to be a while till I level up again, and also to just say that the minotaur greathammer doesn't exist, and replace all in game lore relevant to it with a maul, perhaps stylized different than standard mauls, but mechanically the same.

[BlackRabbit]

I'm the lizardfolk druid. The GM very kindly let me convert my character to a Spontaneous caster with the Spells per Day of a normal Druid to compensate for my newbness. http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=521652

And my suggestion to make his character into a half-tibbit was ignored. :smallwink:

[Thormag]

Kobold Sorcerer here, here's my sheet.

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/2949/1314582576762.png (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=488454)

[Babale]

The biggest solution that I see that will allow me to keep my character the way I want him to be(not sacrificing fun roleplay stuff like Half-ogre, Chaostician, etc) would be to fully reinstate the LA(but not retroactively, I don't want to lose levels, but I do want it to be a while till I level up again, and also to just say that the minotaur greathammer doesn't exist, and replace all in game lore relevant to it with a maul, perhaps stylized different than standard mauls, but mechanically the same.

While that would certainly work, I think a major problem with damage isn't the pitiful 3d6 so much as the number after the plus. I'm not sure if there's really a solution for that, though... Any suggestions?

[Invader]

The biggest solution that I see that will allow me to keep my character the way I want him to be(not sacrificing fun roleplay stuff like Half-ogre, Chaostician, etc) would be to fully reinstate the LA(but not retroactively, I don't want to lose levels, but I do want it to be a while till I level up again, and also to just say that the minotaur greathammer doesn't exist, and replace all in game lore relevant to it with a maul, perhaps stylized different than standard mauls, but mechanically the same.

That seems more than fair and like a few people have already said, there are a ton of ways to hamper a power attacking charger. I actually started a thread discussing just that not long ago the search function is down and I can't find it through Google.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The lack of knockback does imply some holding back. If the DM reinstates LA the others would catch up... eventually... depending on how fast the group progresses. It might be simpler to just buy it off when you can, but it's your call.

The Rogue and Swashbuckler should have much higher touch AC than 10, so I don't see how that's an equal problem.

Illusions should be handled by the casters, which gives them something to do.

Will save isn't always mind control. It can be, say, blindness.

The other melees suffer from various attacks as well, but one thing about being a big ogre is that even an ignorant enemy will target you (or the mage) first.

[Magnyr_Delorn]

That seems more than fair and like a few people have already said, there are a ton of ways to hamper a power attacking charger. I actually started a thread discussing just that not long ago the search function is down and I can't find it through Google.

Just to be clear, I don't make a habit of charging. I use it on occasion, but as you can see from the character sheet, it isn't something I've built the character around.

[LTwerewolf]

Rather than just say it doesn't exist, find an excuse as to why it got sundered, and you don't have one anymore. They're not easy to find.


Also a lot of the problem would be solved if your enemies were spread out more. If he has to spend time getting place to place he's not going to be full power attacking twice per round. Ambush tactics, large field tactics, etc. Rarely, if ever, should enemies all be right next to each other.


This doesn't seem like an overpowered character at all to me. I think that different tactics with the npcs will shift things back towards party balance.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Other then the 3rd party stuff Magnyr_Delorn has I don't understand how the other players are not keeping up.

Do guys understand how battlefield control works?

[Invader]

Just to be clear, I don't make a habit of charging. I use it on occasion, but as you can see from the character sheet, it isn't something I've built the character around.

You had me fooled with dungeon crasher and improved bull rush :smallamused:

[Babale]

Also a lot of the problem would be solved if your enemies were spread out more. If he has to spend time getting place to place he's not going to be full power attacking twice per round. Ambush tactics, large field tactics, etc. Rarely, if ever, should enemies all be right next to each other.


This doesn't seem like an overpowered character at all to me. I think that different tactics with the npcs will shift things back towards party balance.Possibly; the last few adventures involved a floating ancient ship infested with Kythons and a wizard's laboratory filled with strange magical guardians. Neither of which is exactly an open environment. Hopefully, you are correct.


Other then the 3rd party stuff Magnyr_Delorn has I don't understand how the other players are not keeping up.

Do guys understand how battlefield control works?
3rd party stuff?

Anyways, yes, compared to the standard build here at the Playground Treg is a pushover. Compared to the other players, nearly all of whom don't frequent optimization boards and aren't interested in doing so, however...

[Magnyr_Delorn]

Gonna address a few posts:


How does he deal with these situations
Will saves
Entangle
Flying Enemies
Mobs of Enemies
Bad Terrain
And 5 by 5 spaces
Also how does he have so high AC

Bab addressed some of these, but I think he glossed over the most important one imo on this list, which is mobs of enemies. Bab likes to run singular, powerful mobs, rather than groups of enemies. Treg has no effective way to deal with groups, lacking cleave and other such abilities. Bab needs to run more groups of enemies in his encounters.


We roll for stats in my group; he had an 18. Put it in Strength.

My highest stat was a 16, just to clarify, which became 18 AFTER the 2pt adjustment.



He DOES use a Minotaur Greathammer, which is the cheesiest part of his build. But when he first rolled up his character, I told him "no" to so many things that I decided to let him keep the hammer. And its not the crits; he hasn't crit in 5 or 6 sessions, although he rolled quite a few 20s in a row last session against a golem. Its just the ridiculous two handed power attacks. The hammer might need to get hit with a nerf-stick, though.

Agreed



As to the questions above, yes, it bothers the other PCs, many of whom have approached me about it, and yes, it makes it hard to balance encounters. And the PC roleplays his character very well, which means that its not like he isn't shining during diplomacy. Sure, he doesn't get to roll high on his Bluff checks, but he still gets to talk to people. And yes, there are times when he isn't very useful; a few sessions ago, the sneakier members of the team got to sneak into a Kython lair while he took a nap, for example. But still, any time there's combat, he tends to dominate. Occasionally, yes, his ability to hit isn't helpful. But I'm not about to make every encounter be a fight against flying casters who target Will saves. That's not fun for anyone, and doesn't make sense with the plot.

I have so much fun roleplaying Treg, which I basically do via stream of consciousness. With certain restrictions, if I think of something, I do it, no matter how outlandish or ridiculous. Against the elder black pudding, I used the leg I ripped off a clay golem in a previous encounter that same dungeon(as a trophy at the time) to club the pudding into submission.


Hitting/damaging/making life difficult for the PC

-Use monsters whose attacks target touch AC;

-Target non-AC defenses, such as saves (you said they were good, but there's no way they are better than his AC, at least according to what you're telling us);

-Use crowd control techniques (stuff like Grease, Obscuring Mist and Entangle);

Making hitting/damaging monsters harder for the PC

-Use invisibility/etherealness/blink/flight/anything that makes hitting the target that much harder;

-Use monsters with DR;

-Use ranged attackers (preferably combined with any of the above).

These are just some basic ideas.

Agreed with all of these things except DR. DR makes the problems on the other PC's worse, not better.

[LTwerewolf]

As others have hinted at, I think you would be better served bringin them up than bringing him down. Just a few tips and hints can completely change the outcome of a character.

Also preach the creative use of low level spells. I've seen more than one fight completely ended by a simple prestidigitation spell. The sorcerer needs to be very careful about which spells they choose. Utility, versatility, utility.



The rogue can change up his tactic and turn himself into a scout. He finds out what's up, relays the info the the party, and then softens the enemy up to turn them into easy pickings.

The half-ogre is a brute. Let him be, and have your party try instead to compete, to compliment. That's how our parties tend to work. Everyone has a different role, and it isn't always combat related.

[Invader]

As others have hinted at, I think you would be better served bringin them up than bringing him down. Just a few tips and hints can completely change the outcome of a character.

Also preach the creative use of low level spells. I've seen more than one fight completely ended by a simple prestidigitation spell. The sorcerer needs to be very careful about which spells they choose. Utility, versatility, utility.



The rogue can change up his tactic and turn himself into a scout. He finds out what's up, relays the info the the party, and then softens the enemy up to turn them into easy pickings.

The half-ogre is a brute. Let him be, and have your party try instead to compete, to compliment. That's how our parties tend to work. Everyone has a different role, and it isn't always combat related.

I completely disagree, the OP already said his other players aren't optimizers so how would forcing 4 other players to change their game be favorable to restraining 1 admittedly stronger character.

i

[RagnaroksChosen]

...

3rd party stuff?

Anyways, yes, compared to the standard build here at the Playground Treg is a pushover. Compared to the other players, nearly all of whom don't frequent optimization boards and aren't interested in doing so, however...

I apologize I forgot about the first 2-3 posts and saw Xao... on his character sheet.. Jumped the gun sorry.

Even without them frequenting the boards, they should still be doing well.
I keep looking at the sorc and thinking how does this person not have any thing to do during combat. They have some pretty good spells. Ray of enfeeblement, mass snakes swiftness, dispel magic, nerve skitter, all great spells.

[LTwerewolf]

There's a difference between optimizing and giving a bit of help. It doesn't ruin their fun just to learn how certain things can work a little better.

Often what very low op groups find is that they have these ideas for their characters. This is a good thing, obviously, but what low op tend to do is not realize that this is not mutually exclusive with a small amount of optimizing.

Not only that, when we've given that bit of help to low op players, they've found themselves having more fun because their character is now more powerful and better fitting to that idea they had in their head.

[Thormag]

I apologize I forgot about the first 2-3 posts and saw Xao... on his character sheet.. Jumped the gun sorry.

Even without them frequenting the boards, they should still be doing well.
I keep looking at the sorc and thinking how does this person not have any thing to do during combat. They have some pretty good spells. Ray of enfeeblement, mass snakes swiftness, dispel magic, nerve skitter, all great spells.

I don't think neither the DM or the Half-Ogre think I don't do anything on combat. It's just that I'm relatively new to the campaign (I've played only like 3 sessions so far), so my impact on the party hasn't been felt as strongly as a pure combat character like the meatshield. Last fight I teleported a party member away from the pudding's range and made the pudding waste its AoO on a summon, for instance.

[Larkas]

Agreed with all of these things except DR. DR makes the problems on the other PC's worse, not better.

True that. If only there was a way to bypass DR using precision damage or some feat based off Dex... Better to just ignore this bit if it will make things even worse than they already are.

[Incorrect]

Perhaps, while changing the hammer, the half-ogre could change the stats a bit?
For example move 6 Str to Int and gain some much needed skill points in stead. It doesn't have to change the way the character is played.

The high Str seems to be the problem, so change it and make a more well-rounded character that fits the party.

[Mnemnosyne]

For bringing the half-ogre's damage down, I can think of nothing better than going with switching to one-handed weapons. Sword and board is decidedly suboptimal, and it sounds like that's exactly what's needed here to some degree. Grab a one-handed weapon, strength bonus drops from 1.5x to 1, power attacking goes from 2 for every bab you burn off to 1. This is also a good way to self-nerf without giving up the option to use a lot more power in the event that it's needed, like a monster about to kill someone. If that happens, the ogre can get really angry and pummel that monster with a big two-handed smash.

After that, I also agree with using more monsters instead of single powerful enemies, and spread out monsters, and combine that with various debuffs against the ogre character. The humble tanglefoot bag can help a lot here - you only need to hit a character's touch AC and it restricts them to half movement. One of those, and enemies spread out, means it's harder for him to move between enemies to smash them, which will give the other characters time to participate. If there's a lot of weaker enemies spread out in such a way that he can only hit one of them at any given time, it means he's got to spend time moving around between them. And it feels relatively realistic; if you've got one big, powerful dude on the battlefield, you're going to want to spread your people out as much as possible and nick him down with ranged attacks.

Finally, definitely give tips to the other players. It sounds, from at least the posts from them in this thread, that they don't particularly want the half-ogre character nerfed so much as they just want to be able to feel more effective, so to Magnyr, I would suggest that those tactical things you mentioned you do better than the others...try to teach them. I don't know the level of pointing out potentially better tactics that everyone would be comfortable with at your table, but once you do it a few times, if the others are paying attention, they should quickly grasp the mechanic you're pointing out to them. Assuming everyone is willing to learn a little, this might go a long way.

[8wGremlin]

Drow Rogue/Ranger/Shadowdancer, level 9. Veteren (2e, maybe AD&D) player. Got Drow with no LA.
Human Swordsage, level 9. Rather new player.
Lizardfolk Druid, level 9. Very new player; got Lizardfolk with no LA.
Half-Ogre Fighter/Chaostician, level 8. Reduced to 1 LA. Highest system mastery in the group.
Human Favored Soul, level 8. Started late, so lower level. Another old-school vet.
Kobold Sorcerer/Sandshaper, level 7. Started late, so lower level.


So in effect you have

Drow Rogue/Ranger/Shadowdancer, level 9 (should be ECL 10)
Human Swordsage, level 9. (ECL 9)
Lizardfolk Druid, level 9. (should be ECL 10)
Half-Ogre Fighter/Chaostician, level 8. (should be ECL 9)
Human Favored Soul, level 8. (ECL 8)
Kobold Sorcerer/Sandshaper, level 7.(ECL 7)


I'd do something about the Favoured Soul and the Sorcerer, can be much fun compared to a lightly optimised STR 30 large fighter

[Iferus]

Well, I've been in the half-orge's situation playing a Goliath. I would do three things:

1: reinstate the LA. By just not letting him level up, things get slightly better.

2: use the environment. Outdoor terrain may have ditches, ranged characters in trees, hidden enemies, things like that. Urban terrain has people all over the place, so have enemies fight guerrilla style and make them hide whenever the ogre gets within 50ft. Whenever you're near water/sewers, have things be slippery. Especially in sewers he can either have a great time showing off his strength by jumping, or be less effective because he lost his balance in the waist-deep muck that requires a balance check for every move.

3: use the rules. Ranged attackers should use cover, melee combatants should know if they're outmatched and either defend or retreat, and don't forget about special attacks. Tripping the meatshield is a really effective way of diminishing his effectiveness, but this actually plays into one of his strengths, so only high-str, large+ opponents can use this against him. Use traps as means of battle control: splitting the party or putting him in a pit trap will do.

[Ernir]

Mechanical problem? Meh.

I'm guessing the real reason is here:

I think I am VASTLY smarter tactically than the rest of the group. I know all the little rules, get the best mileage out of 5 foot steps, know how much to power attack based on my target, etc. No one thing makes my character overpowered, but a whole bunch of things do.

We can talk about nerfing this and buffing that and damage per round and whatnot all day, when the problem is that one player knows his cover from his concealment and the others don't. System mastery manifests itself in more ways than just effective characters.

How to have information trickle through into the rest of the group without just bullying the newbies is a seriously table-dependent issue, but I suggest you start working on it.

[Lorsa]

While I would suggest letting the new players start at the same level as everyone else (since being new and also below everyone can be a bit frustrating) and using the LA's (they are there for a reason I believe) the real challange is that you have to help them understand the game. Give them some pointers. Help them choose spells / feats to make them more effective.

Oh, and if someone has 18 in a score before racial modifiers, that's usually quite enough. :smallsmile:

[rot42]

I would go with larger groups of enemies with cinematic descriptions of how well they work together. This puts everyone in the hot seat, increases immersion, and gives a material example of how smart tactics can turn around an encounter. Encourage Magnyr_Delorn to engage in table talk (unless it is incompatible with your preferred playstyle; some groups like to have everything a player says be in character, but I prefer to just let them talk unless it interferes with the flow of the game). Be aware that there is a significant danger here of making a player feel they are not really in control of their character; some social finesse and patience are required.

Running several distinct and complex monsters simultaneously can get overwhelming, so I recommend doing as much thinking as possible before you are put on the spot. Personally, I pre-roll initiatives and write out one or two of the most likely courses of action for each monster for each of the first few rounds. Throw in a few mooks who do not require any decision more complex than where to move, and suddenly you have action advantage over the party. The monsters may each have twelve potentially relevant SLAs, but only three or five or whatever will actually see use. You know the terrain, the party, their favorite tactics, and even how drained they are likely to be when they reach the encounter - you should have a good idea how they will behave and can plan accordingly. "Plan" in this case should of course be read as "understand how the monster will react to the players' likely courses of action" rather than "mwa ha ha I am the DM and will crush your puny characters behold my might" (not trying to imply that you would, just trying to be clear).

You might also consider dropping loot that directly supports each character's Area of Awesomeness (I skipped reading the character sheets, so no concrete recommendation here). "Intriguing" should be the goal here, especially if you can design an encounter that leverages the utility of a low cost item.

edit to add: More drastically, a good group is more important than any individual campaign. If you have very new players, I would suggest starting at level one and building from there. The vast majority of people will not have a good intuitive understanding of the huge array of options available to a level nine character and will just feel overwhelmed if dropped into it like a frog in boiling water.

[Thormag]

edit to add: More drastically, a good group is more important than any individual campaign. If you have very new players, I would suggest starting at level one and building from there. The vast majority of people will not have a good intuitive understanding of the huge array of options available to a level nine character and will just feel overwhelmed if dropped into it like a frog in boiling water.

Babale did that. Both of the relatively new players (I say relatively, because they have now almost a year of experience, playing the campaign) were there when the campaign started, at lvl 1. Or at least, that's what I know. One of the "old-school veterans" also started his character at lvl 1, along with the group. The favored soul and I (the Kobold Sorcerer), are the only ones left who started at a higher level, but lower than the rest of the party.

In my case, specifically, I chose to be an arcane utility Kobold Sorcerer (instead of the classic Mailman K-Sorc) because I was told the party wasn't really that optimized and they needed arcane support. I've got only a small idea so far on how my character will fare on the scale of combat usefulness, but I expect my influence to be like that of an utility caster: lots of battlefield control, very few dice rolls. Although for some reason I can't stop rolling 20s whenever I roll in this campaign.

[Magnyr_Delorn]

Perhaps, while changing the hammer, the half-ogre could change the stats a bit?
For example move 6 Str to Int and gain some much needed skill points in stead. It doesn't have to change the way the character is played.

The high Str seems to be the problem, so change it and make a more well-rounded character that fits the party.


For bringing the half-ogre's damage down, I can think of nothing better than going with switching to one-handed weapons. Sword and board is decidedly suboptimal, and it sounds like that's exactly what's needed here to some degree. Grab a one-handed weapon, strength bonus drops from 1.5x to 1, power attacking goes from 2 for every bab you burn off to 1. This is also a good way to self-nerf without giving up the option to use a lot more power in the event that it's needed, like a monster about to kill someone. If that happens, the ogre can get really angry and pummel that monster with a big two-handed smash.

Unfortunately, losing strength, gaining int, or going S&B solves the mechanical issue while wrecking havoc on the roleplaying. We're looking fo solutions that don't change the core of the character.



After that, I also agree with using more monsters instead of single powerful enemies, and spread out monsters, and combine that with various debuffs against the ogre character. The humble tanglefoot bag can help a lot here - you only need to hit a character's touch AC and it restricts them to half movement. One of those, and enemies spread out, means it's harder for him to move between enemies to smash them, which will give the other characters time to participate. If there's a lot of weaker enemies spread out in such a way that he can only hit one of them at any given time, it means he's got to spend time moving around between them. And it feels relatively realistic; if you've got one big, powerful dude on the battlefield, you're going to want to spread your people out as much as possible and nick him down with ranged attacks.

Strongly agreed here. I think environments/enemies can be crafted to challenge Treg.



Finally, definitely give tips to the other players. It sounds, from at least the posts from them in this thread, that they don't particularly want the half-ogre character nerfed so much as they just want to be able to feel more effective, so to Magnyr, I would suggest that those tactical things you mentioned you do better than the others...try to teach them. I don't know the level of pointing out potentially better tactics that everyone would be comfortable with at your table, but once you do it a few times, if the others are paying attention, they should quickly grasp the mechanic you're pointing out to them. Assuming everyone is willing to learn a little, this might go a long way.


Mechanical problem? Meh.

I'm guessing the real reason is here:


We can talk about nerfing this and buffing that and damage per round and whatnot all day, when the problem is that one player knows his cover from his concealment and the others don't. System mastery manifests itself in more ways than just effective characters.

How to have information trickle through into the rest of the group without just bullying the newbies is a seriously table-dependent issue, but I suggest you start working on it.


I would go with larger groups of enemies with cinematic descriptions of how well they work together. This puts everyone in the hot seat, increases immersion, and gives a material example of how smart tactics can turn around an encounter. Encourage Magnyr_Delorn to engage in table talk (unless it is incompatible with your preferred playstyle; some groups like to have everything a player says be in character, but I prefer to just let them talk unless it interferes with the flow of the game). Be aware that there is a significant danger here of making a player feel they are not really in control of their character; some social finesse and patience are required.

This definitely already happens. I do my best to work with Ron and help the rest of the party, while trying to not step on people's toes or run everyone's character. Everyone has their own tolerance to my assistance, and I'm trying to respect that. The druid player has been particularly receptive to chatting with me, so I've worked with him quite a bit to get more mechanically stronger.



You might also consider dropping loot that directly supports each character's Area of Awesomeness (I skipped reading the character sheets, so no concrete recommendation here). "Intriguing" should be the goal here, especially if you can design an encounter that leverages the utility of a low cost item.

That MAY work, however the character that I consider to be the least effective in the party has a +6 weapon at level 9, compared to Treg's +2 weapon.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Try sprinkling in a couple of swarms for the sorcerer or druid to try and deal with while he fights other stuff. If you really want the Druid to have some options, give him some animals to work with.

Try throwing some difficult terrain and such for the rogue and swashbuckler to maneuver around, that the half-orge won't be able to reach (5ft wide walkways to a platform, for example).

Try putting some archers on raised platforms to take him out of his comfort zone. As others have suggested, illusion spells are wonderful tools.

[Alienist]

I am confused why the kobold has so many spells, but the druid has so few (and bad ones? Flamestrike is a better blasting spell surely?).

Also, the druid needs natural spell feat so he can cast while shifted.

And what happened to his animal companion?

[ArcturusV]

Heck. Just have groups of enemies that fight as a team. I mean, take something like enemy military units. They shouldn't fight as one one one berserkers necessarily. Teamwork. They're likely to have drilled and trained in stuff that Player Characters would never use for various reasons like Phalanx and Close-Order Drill. It's a cheap, simple method of basically making the Power Attacker less effective due to the cover chance (25%-50% if you got a superior version of it), that enemies could have been using since level 1. Pike hedge style tactics, using things like Caltrops that prevent simple "Charge and smash" from working, tanglefoot bags, smoke sticks, etc. Having enemies "swap out" as needed so injured guys can go to the back and heal/recover while fresh troops go up front.

I know it was mentioned the DM in question basically only uses single "Solo" monsters. I think he's really missing out. I know it's considered daunting to start running mobs and such. But as long as the guys are supposed to work together, they probably have similar equipment, similar training, and will adopt similar tactics. It's surprisingly easy when you get into it. Just never have the enemy fight like PCs tend to fight, where everyone is trying to do their own thing all at the same time. At the very least since the enemy turn consists of anywhere from 5-12 times as many actions it's a lot harder for one guy to carry the day then he might when it's just him versus a single set of actions.

[Zombimode]

Gonna address a few posts:
Bab addressed some of these, but I think he glossed over the most important one imo on this list, which is mobs of enemies. Bab likes to run singular, powerful mobs, rather than groups of enemies. Treg has no effective way to deal with groups, lacking cleave and other such abilities. Bab needs to run more groups of enemies in his encounters.

As I expected. Often when a DM complains about a melee focused PC rushing through encounters and outshining the other players is because he mostly uses single melee-vulnerable enemies, maybe somtimes with a couple of weak minions. While this works an very low levels, the rapidly increased damage on higher levels renders this tactic unfeasible rather quickly, starting around level 6.

Using enemies that aren't vulnerable to melee may work, but frustrate the other PCs too, and repeated use may have other undesirable effects.
Instead the DM should run groups of enemies composed of mixed roles and strength but individually not much weaker than the PCs.
Ie. in this case the DM could focus on CR 7-9 enemies, composing groups of 4-7 creatures, some of them melee brutes, ranged attackers, support and spellcasting, pure spellcasting/control.

This will make fights tactically more interesting in general, and the increased number of enemies, each of them poses a threat (but not overly lethal, but enough not to be ignored), will give everyone in the group something important to do in a fight.

[ksbsnowowl]

DR hurts the other players worseTrue that. If only there was a way to bypass DR using precision damage or some feat based off Dex... Better to just ignore this bit if it will make things even worse than they already are.

Use monsters that have a type of DR overcome by a special material. (A type other than the composition of the half ogre's hammer).

Before the party gets to said bad guy, drop a dagger made of the appropriate material into the loot. All of a sudden the DR is a hindrance to the half ogre, and not the rogue. Fey, demons, devils, and mineral warriors (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) are all good for this. Drop in a blade for the swordsage too.

The DR shouldn't be a hindrance to the casters if they are blasters (which I think you alluded to).

You don't need casters to inflict grease on the ogre's weapon; boggles (MM2) get it at will. Just an FYI.

Oh, and +1 to the below:



We can talk about nerfing this and buffing that and damage per round and whatnot all day, when the problem is that one player knows his cover from his concealment and the others don't. System mastery manifests itself in more ways than just effective characters.

[pjackson]

Half-Ogre
(RoD p97)
+6 Str
–2 Dex
+2 Con
–2 Int
–2 Cha
Barbarian • Large Size
• 30’ Movement
• Darkvision 60’
• Level Adjustment +2
• +4 Natural Armor bonus to AC

That's the default Half-Ogre. I said that since I let the Lizardfolk have no LA, he can start with +1.

I think the key thing there could be "large size".
How often has that been a disadvantage?
How many times have enemies seen him standing head and shoulders (say) above the others wielding an enormous weapon and thought "We looks the real threat: we need to deal with him first".
As the obvious threat he should be the target for things that are good against big tough guys.
There are lots of different things that could be used: Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shatter (on his weapon), etc..


Enemies with very high normal AC (25+) so that power attacking is a bad tactic would tend to bring characters with other attack types into play - but would require that the other players be willing to use such attacks.
The Elusive Target feat could be good for a BBEG or recurring villain (as it negates power attack) - the sort of guy you want to have high enough defenses to escape the first meeting or two.

[ksbsnowowl]

Enemies with very high normal AC (25+) so that power attacking is a bad tactic would tend to bring characters with other attack types into play - but would require that the other players be willing to use such attacks.


Another great point. Sacking a wizard's lab? Did the party get some alchemist's fire or flasks of acid? Those give the rogue a means to make touch attack sneak attacks, letting him still shine vs high AC (low touch AC) enemies. But he has to be willing to try it.

Also remember that holy water works against evil outsiders just as well as undead.

[Deepbluediver]

While that would certainly work, I think a major problem with damage isn't the pitiful 3d6 so much as the number after the plus. I'm not sure if there's really a solution for that, though... Any suggestions?

What about ability drain or negative levels? Poison, maybe. Or maybe a cursed item of some sort. Something to sap his strength. Perhaps really high AC so that he can't make full use of Power Attack.
It's either that or customized magic items for the rest of the party to bring them UP to the same level as the one player. A magic amulet that increases the size of the druids wildshapes, for example, or grants them half-something templates (half dragon, etc).

I've read through most of the first page, and it seems that unfortunately you've kind of got yourself in something of a pickle here. You have one character that is (reasonably) optimized for combat, and several that are UNoptimized for combat. If you don't want to just kill off the half-ogre and tell the player to start over, there's not really a lot you can do, since anything that has suitable defenses/damage against the ogre will be magnified against the other characters.

[pjackson]

I'm not about to have every single enemy group have a caster specifically made to combat him. That's unrealistic, and doesn't fit the setting at all.
[cut]
his damage output while still letting him fulfill his role as a Meatshield.


Meatshield is a NPC role, but it seems that his role is more splatting the monsters.

I don't know your setting, but it would not be unrealistic for groups of intelligent mobs to be prepared to deal with big strong humanoids, since ogres exist in it. These might involve low level magic like Grease, or non-magical equivalents like a barrel of oil.

What do the other characters see their role in combat as?
I know the Kobold sorcerer said battle field control - which is most useful when there are multiple threats, but is powerful at all levels.
A druid is hard to predict.
Swordsage and swashbuckler would point to wanting to kill monsters in cool/stylish ways. Unfortunately bashing them to death is generally more effective. The half Ogre using potions of fly give him mobility to match theirs. How easily could they be replaced? if yu could force them to get used up or kept for emergency use, then situations where mobility is important could be useful - for example a wizard standing in a safe place behind a line of minions. the half ogre could be occupied by the minions, whilst the rogue, swordsage and swashbuckler go for the wizard.and his bodyguard, and the sorcerer and druid help out as needed

[Ailowynn]

First off: I didn't read all the above posts. Sorry if there are redundancies.

I have a similar player, in that, without meaning, he sorta...broke the game. For you, I'd say:

a) Buff the other players. Either house rule in some stuff or give them some awesome magical items.
b) Make him fight other ogres or other stuff to make it sorta an RP issue(mwa ha ha)
c) Mages x10,000. All touch attacks, Will spells, etc.
d) how about some doors (well...maybe adamant one doors so he can't break em). Or some Stealth checks. Or tracking. Or skill challenges. Or social encounters (and prejudice). Etc.

[Thormag]

I am confused why the kobold has so many spells, but the druid has so few (and bad ones? Flamestrike is a better blasting spell surely?).

Also, the druid needs natural spell feat so he can cast while shifted.

And what happened to his animal companion?

I can answer for the Kobold at least: check the Sandshaper PrC on the Sandstorm handbook. I get so many spells thanks to the Desert Insight feature of the Sandshaper, which adds many "desert" themed spells to my spell list. A total of 43 spells. It's a bit cheesy, I know, but I rather play a sorcerer than a mechanically superior Wizard for the purposes of battlefield support, mostly because I don't want to do everything.

[Eldest]

a) Buff the other players. Either house rule in some stuff or give them some awesome magical items.
b) Make him fight other ogres or other stuff to make it sorta an RP issue(mwa ha ha)
c) Mages x10,000. All touch attacks, Will spells, etc.
d) how about some doors (well...maybe adamant one doors so he can't break em). Or some Stealth checks. Or tracking. Or skill challenges. Or social encounters (and prejudice). Etc.

Then they would loot the doors and leave the dungeon...

[Menzath]

Some things that defeat our meatshield/str smasher.
Ray of enfeeblement.
Sleep effects without HD limits.
Fog clouds, especially solid fog.
And yes getting charmed/dominated.

Also incorpeal monsters.

If he has an easy time hitting enemies AC, then give them blur/displacment. Darkness and fog spells are a dime a dozen for enemies to cast and would give your druid a reason to prep other spells to conteract enemy tactics.

Why oh why do you not have the enemy arcane casters not prep w/ mirror image, displacement, and greater blink?
Not to mention an illusionary smoke cloud.

Note: Magic is very powerful and insanly debillitating. Players have it. Have your NPC's show them how strong they can be, by using it on them(in proper moderation, of course).

Edit: Oh.. and water. Forcing that fullplate armored behometh to swim can be devastating without help from other party members. His STR makes up for part of his armor check, but not the weight of his gear.

[ksbsnowowl]

Make one of the BBEG's a Phantom (MM5). The template can be applied to any corporeal creature, and would blunt the melee folks, and give the casters a chance to shine.

[Fyermind]

consider combat with a grappler and a boss bad guy. The grapple instantly charges and grabs the half ogre. Now he is doing something he should be pretty good at, but can't dish out massive damage in against say, a totemist druid bear. The other players now half to deal with the boss. Nobody sits the fight out. Everyone is glad he is there to keep the grappler off them.

A group of gnomes don't like giants or kobolds. They shoot to kill. They use things to reduce his mobility and lead him on a chase around the battlefield. The superior mobility of the rogue ans swashbuckler let them save the day.

Don't overuse the above one, because the ogre and pretty much just sit down and cry and be just as effective.

[Saito Takuji]

one thing that might be fun to do, and give other players a taste of mr ogre-san's power would be mind swaping around the other players so they each get time as the ogre, course doing it that way the mental ability scores wouldn really transfer, unless you house-ruled that they did...

prolly not the best way, but could make for an intersting side-plot thing nonetheless

[Deepbluediver]

one thing that might be fun to do, and give other players a taste of mr ogre-san's power would be mind swaping around the other players so they each get time as the ogre, course doing it that way the mental ability scores wouldn really transfer, unless you house-ruled that they did...

prolly not the best way, but could make for an intersting side-plot thing nonetheless

I had a DM who actually did the whole body-swapping thing (via cursed artifact) in a game, several times actually, so everyone got everyone else's character for a time. There where some...interesting moments...

This is your daily spell selection? Those choices are crap.
You're crap!
....
No! Don't let him get into melee range!
Why? I can just heal if I get hit.
*gets grappled*
....
*the rogue on point forgets to check the 3rd archway in a row for traps*
What the hell man, not all of us have your reflex save!
Well sorrr-ry, I've never played anything with this many skills before!


It was fun for a time, but the thing was, it was a shorter game than some (half a dozen sessions over just a few weeks) instead of once a week for months, so people weren't as invested in their character, and didn't take things as seriously.
And even then when we leveled up and had to make decisions for other player's characters the [poop] still hit the fan.

And lo, a great cry did go up from across the land:
"Dude! You're ruining my build!"