Vow of Poverty; What Exalted Feats are worth it?

[Vaz]

What feats are worth taking a Vow of Poverty for earlier on in the build for a monk; Nymph's Kiss is of limited use, and only Touch of Golden Ice and Intuitive Attack seem to be helpful. Why should I not take Sacred Vow at 15, and VoP at 18 for ToGI and IntAttack at 18 and 20 Respectively?

That way I can benefit from my loots until I have a change of heart. If VoP monk is making your eyes bleed, then VoP Totemist with Dragon Mantle Totem Chakra Bind (for Fly).

Edit; is there any way to swap the Exalted Feats gained for Feat Taxes like Iron Will or Alertness, short of Shuffling like a Dark Chaos Cardboard-box-headed robot.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The real question is: why are you taking Vow of Poverty?

There are only two, maybe three classes in the game that can survive being completely severed from the Christmas Tree Effect, and given some flat bonuses in exchange.

[Aegis013]

For most characters the exalted feats from VoP will provided pretty severely limited use, especially when compared to magic items that could be had.

Even the benefits at the end don't really stack up against magic items.

If you must though. Nymph's Kiss and Touch of Golden Ice are two of the most universally useful, and you're already saying they're limited in use. Everything else is probably not going to be at the level of utility you want.

On changing feats, you could ask your DM to be extra lenient on feat retraining.

[Acanous]

None of the Exalted feats are worth it. VoP gives you enough Exalted feats that you can take all of the ones you can qualify for, but they really aren't that good. (Touch of Golden Ice, Exalted Familiar, and Nymph's Kiss are really the only good ones)
If your DM allows you to take any feat you qualify for instead of Exalted only, it's STILL not worth it, unless you're an easy bake wizard or a Druid.
Maybe Sorceror.

[Srasy]

If your DM allows you to take any feat you qualify for instead of Exalted only, it's STILL not worth it, unless you're an easy bake wizard or a Druid.
Maybe Sorceror.

If vow of poverty was this and didnt have whole exalted thing id take this variant on almost every character i would ever make(except E6)

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Well the quick answer to "what Exalted Feats are worth it?" is: Not VoP.

The thing is VoP is actually strongest at very low levels when it's armor bonus is a boon to no armor/light armor classes and items are only giving numbers to most characters rather than increasing their versatility.

All the Exalted Sidekick feats are decent as is exalted Wildshape.

Quell the Profane isn't as good as it's Prereqs, but it's ok.

The two Ki Strike feats aren't really worth normal feats but their worth exalted feats of a VoP monk.

Vow of Nonviolence/Peace should be trivial to maintain as a monk since your fists are a ready source of non penalized nonlethal damage and they'll raise the DC of stunning fist by 4 and give you 6 points of AC and a sanctuary like effect.

[Gildedragon]

I've gone for a disarming, disabling monk with vow of poverty, peace and nonviolence, doing nonlethal damage and being a general nuisance to my enemies. Taunting into attacking him or scaring them off was his usual approach.

[Karnith]

What feats are worth taking a Vow of Poverty for earlier on in the build for a monk; Nymph's Kiss is of limited use, and only Touch of Golden Ice and Intuitive Attack seem to be helpful. Why should I not take Sacred Vow at 15, and VoP at 18 for ToGI and IntAttack at 18 and 20 Respectively?
If you are playing a monk, I would really not recommend taking VoP, especially in a high-level game; getting exalted feats and some flat bonuses are not at all worth giving up magical loot. If you're dead-set on it, Nymph's Kiss and Intuitive Attack are probably the best that you'll get.

Touch of the Golden Ice is very mediocre at high levels, though. If you get it at 18, basically any enemy that's even remotely level-appropriate will be beating the saving throw on anything but a natural 1.

[Psyren]

VoP is pretty bad; Since Totemist is allowed, see if your DM will allow you to take Incarnum feats with it as well as Exalted ones, that will help a lot.

[Shalist]

Touch of the Golden Ice is very mediocre at high levels, though. If you get it at 18, basically any enemy that's even remotely level-appropriate will be beating the saving throw on anything but a natural 1.

Load up extraneous appendages (wing/tail/tentacle/etc) and spam touch attacks, and you'll be forcing so many fortitude saves that the DC is essentially moot. Additionally, it works against things normally immune to ability damage (ie, undead), and since higher level critters tend to have gobs of charisma, it actually becomes more devastating at higher levels.

For instance, a great red dragon (26 cha, 10 dex) would likely be paralyzed by a single failed save (9-14 dex damage); and even a relatively nimble balor (26 cha, 25 dex) would be unlikely to survive 2 failed saves (11-16 dex damage).

Nothing close to what high-level wizards or optimized characters can do, yadda yadda, but its certainly not shabby either.

[Vaz]

ToGI doesn't work against Undead (Ravages work against those immune to poison, but it's still Physical Ability Damage, to which Undead are immune). I can take Saint, and possibly Ability Focus to make it DC18 (or DC16 if the AF isn't allowed).

And I'm not considering taking it early on. The reason I am asking is whether or not it's worth taking it later on. That way I can have fun with loot, take the Vow at 15 or 18 or something, give away my stuff, then have fun rocking out with my boosted stats. There aren't enough choices to make VoP useful for every character. You have 11 free feats, but most of them are none-entities for my intented build; like Metamagic, or Meta-SLA, or Animal Companions, Wild Shape etc. So if ToGI, and Intuitive Attack are the two good ones, then why not take them later on?

[Talya]

ToGI doesn't work against Undead (Ravages work against those immune to poison, but it's still Physical Ability Damage, to which Undead are immune). I can take Saint, and possibly Ability Focus to make it DC18 (or DC16 if the AF isn't allowed).

ToGI explicitly does work against undead, despite the normal undead immunity to ability damage. It even has bonus damage against them.

That said:

Monk = mechanically very weak relative to other classes, and very dependant on gear.
VoP = mechanically makes most classes weaker, especially those dependant on gear.

Together, they make for an utterly impotent character.

I hate the "christmas tree effect" and how characters in so many RPGs are nothing more than the combination of their magical items. So I love VoP. I don't for a second think it's ever mechanically a good idea. The only class I can actually argue for it improving is a wildshape-focused Druid (and even that's highly debatable and situational.)

[stack]

Touch of Golden Ice is fun if you go Master of Many Forms (via druid or wildshape ranger), take frozen wildshape, and abuse the cryohydra form. That many attacks, they WILL roll a 1 eventually.

[Larkas]

And I'm not considering taking it early on. The reason I am asking is whether or not it's worth taking it later on. That way I can have fun with loot, take the Vow at 15 or 18 or something, give away my stuff, then have fun rocking out with my boosted stats. There aren't enough choices to make VoP useful for every character. You have 11 free feats, but most of them are none-entities for my intented build; like Metamagic, or Meta-SLA, or Animal Companions, Wild Shape etc. So if ToGI, and Intuitive Attack are the two good ones, then why not take them later on?

You're looking for a straight answer, so I'll give you this: no, VoP is not worth taking at the levels you're mentioning. VoP is only useful at very low levels, if you're intending to play only up to level 5 or so. At level 15 or 18, it will wreck your character with very little payoff.

[killem2]

The real question is: why are you taking Vow of Poverty?



No it isn't. I hate it when you people do this. :smallfurious:

[Xenogears]

No it isn't. I hate it when you people do this. :smallfurious:

Actually it is a good question in this context. If he is taking VoP because he thinks it will make for a good roleplaying experience then we can just tell him what exalted feats are worth taking. If he, mistakenly, believes VoP is strong mechanically (as some people do) then he should be informed of his error.

So asking why he is taking the feat is a very valid question.

[ArcturusV]

Though since he's planning it in context of "When I hit level..." he's probably doing it more towards Optimization of his Monk rather than Roleplaying/flavoring reasons. Least that's how I'd think of it.

Though I am generally in favor of it as there's already a lack of ways to define a character outside looting. It's kinda weird. In fiction, even DnD based Fiction, characters will have something like their one chosen weapon they go through their entire career with. It has meaning and purpose to them beyond merely what they can do and becomes a signature, etc. This is something that doesn't really exist in the game. VoP is one way to shift the focus from what loot you got lately (And the rest you pawned), and more towards character. Which is fine in my book.

[Psyren]

No it isn't. I hate it when you people do this. :smallfurious:

I agree that it's not kosher to tell people what to enjoy, but this is a legitimate question. If the answer is "I'm going to play without equipment anyway because that's my character concept, and I'm playing a class that can function just fine naked (like a druid/totemist/psion)" then VoP isn't a problem. But if the answer is simply "I want to play Vow of Poverty because I think being a badass ascetic will be fun!" then it's legitimate to warn that player that they may be in for disappointment depending on what their expectations are. (This is particularly true if they pick a class that appears to synergize well with VoP - like Monk - which turns out to be a trap.)

Psyrogue'd by Xenogears

[Gorfnod]

Obligatory link to Drolyt's Vow of Poverty Fix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428)

My group has used this VoP fix numerous times to great effect. Most important it doesn't require Sacred Vow and has options for all alignments. It also increases some of the bonuses, gives real options for weapon enhancements, and doesn't deny you the ability to fly. The number of bonus feats are reduced but they can be any feat you qualify for. In the long run, it is still inferior to items but if you DM allows homebrew then this becomes a nice option for a high end VoP character.

[Vaz]

ToGI explicitly does work against undead, despite the normal undead immunity to ability damage. It even has bonus damage against them.Where? It only says Poison works. The poison might work, but they are still immune to the ability damage the posion causes.

If I was optimizing VoP, there is no mecahnical benefit to taking it later on. If i was optimizing monk, i wouldn't a) take VoP or b) take monk. However, for using in game a VoP taken later on is an RP decision with a mechanical benefit (as opposed to abiding the rules for poverty, without the VoP). It also allows me to use equipment earlier on, to make up for shortcomings, while taking it later on only really loses me the bonus exalted feats.

I am hence trying to work out outside of ToGI and Intuitive Attack what Exalted feats are worth taking and so at which point it would be 'beneficial' for me to take it.

[Lord_Gareth]

Intuitive Attack is a General feat.

[Karnith]

Intuitive Attack is a General feat.
Did it appear somewhere else after the printing of the Book of Exalted Deeds? Because in the BOED, it's listed as an Exalted feat.

[Tokuhara]

Personally, IF I were to use VoP (which I may with my Back-Up), I'd do it on an Unarmed Swordsage. Now I know that ToB-ites are gear-dependent, but I want all of the monk flavor without levels in monk.

[Psyren]

Intuitive Attack is a General feat.

Though there are General feats in the book that are commonly mistaken as Exalted (e.g. Ancestral Relic), Intuitive Attack is indeed an Exalted feat.

[Talya]

Where? It only says Poison works. The poison might work, but they are still immune to the ability damage the posion causes.





Ravages and afflictions deal damage only to evil creatures. Any evil creature takes damage equal to that listed on either Table 3–2 or Table 3–3, plus its Charisma bonus. An evil elemental or evil undead takes an extra 1 point of damage, and an evil outsider or an evil cleric of an evil deity takes an extra 2 points of damage. If more than one kind of damage is listed, the creature’s Charisma modifier and additional damage are added to each kind of damage.

Not only do all ravages and afflictions specifically work on undead, they do bonus damage to them.

[Vaz]

Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.

Ravages ignore Poison and Disease Immunity of the Undead. Page 34-35 of BoED has no mention of bypassing immunity to physical ability damage.

[Xenogears]

Ravages ignore Poison and Disease Immunity of the Undead. Page 34-35 of BoED has no mention of bypassing immunity to physical ability damage.

I'm starting to think this belongs in the dysfunctional rules thread...

[Vaz]

There is a Wisdom damaging Ravage, however. However it is Ingested IIRC, so short of lacing your own blood with it and opening yourself up to a vampire, that's one of them things. Question is whether you can grapple a jaw open and force the ravage down the throat of the undead.

[Deophaun]

I'm starting to think this belongs in the dysfunctional rules thread...
It does. It's commonly house-ruled to make it work, but by RAW, the rules don't seem to support the intent when it comes to undead.

[ArcturusV]

Seems RAW it would work, but it'd only do 1 damage. More if the Evil Undead was also an Evil Cleric. As the extra damage is specific and it does call out Evil Undead. But it wouldn't do the base 1d6.

Which yes, is silly. But RAW, looking at both entries, you have a blanket "Immune to ability damage", then a specific "If you hit an Evil Creature with a Ravage, it takes X, if it's Evil Undead it takes an extra 1. If it's an Evil Outsider or Evil Cleric it takes 2 extra."

Least that's how I read it. The immunity is a blanket statement and the added damage is specific.

Course since it's intention is obviously to have full effect on undead it's not how I'd play it. But Silly RAW that seems to be the case.

[Deophaun]

Seems RAW it would work, but it'd only do 1 damage. More if the Evil Undead was also an Evil Cleric. As the extra damage is specific and it does call out Evil Undead. But it wouldn't do the base 1d6.
The thing is, it doesn't call out ToGI dealing damage to undead. It's just ravages and afflictions in general do extra damage. That means that there are two, and only two, things that can affect undead by RAW and do so in a manner in which the undead are likely to be exposed (jade water and consuming passion). The other two that deal damage to mental stats do it through ingestion or inhalation, and so won't affect undead without some extraordinary circumstances.

There is nothing that overrides undead immunity by RAW. Dealing extra damage that the target is immune to is still dealing no damage.

[ArcturusV]

Except it's phrased in such a way that it specifically does do that damage to (Evil only) Undead. It's far more specific than the undead immunity on the template rule.

[Shalist]

Ravages and afflictions deal damage only to evil creatures.
Any evil creature takes damage equal to that listed on either Table 3–2 or Table 3–3, plus its Charisma bonus. An evil elemental or evil undead takes an extra 1 point of damage, and an evil outsider or an evil cleric of an evil deity takes an extra 2 points of damage. If more than one kind of damage is listed, the creature’s Charisma modifier and additional damage are added to each kind of damage.

Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.I'd always misread that in the past as "they're just immune to all that kinda stuff," and assumed that ravages/afflictions specifically worked regardless, so...yeah, 'mental-stat ravages/afflictions only' makes sense *shrug*
edit: needs moar editing. (also, less rambling, more quotes)

[Talya]

Least that's how I read it. The immunity is a blanket statement and the added damage is specific.


That's exactly what it is. And specific trumps general.

Ravages and afflictions specifically work on undead, entirely.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

So, I was just giving this some more thought and I remembered threads where people tried to do things like purposefully spend all their gold on inherent bonuses and grafts then take VoP at 18. This has generally been poo-poo'd as a stupid exploit, disingenuous to VoP and Exalted status and "gaining benefits from gold expenditures".

So, my question is would anyone deny a character a few grafts and reasonable inherent bonuses for their entry level (not nearly all their wealth) if the player had actually played the character in question?

Would an inherent bonus and a few grafts (esp flight) make VoP tolerable on a class that isn't one of the few that's "allowed" to take VoP?

[ArcturusV]

I'd probably be something to get a book/fist thrown at you. Least around groups I've seen where you try to "break" the rules by turning all your liquid assets into say... magical tattoos with continuous/limited per day effects so you still have all the bonuses. Or burn it on trying to get biological implants or some sort of clockwork bionics or something.

It's squiffy. It's legit probably by the strict reading of the rules. After all you can't "give away" a tattoo or some secondary dragon heart beating inside your chest...

... actually I guess you COULD. Use however you originally got a graft, or some sort of makeshift magitek bionics, remove it from yourself, go give it to something like the orphan with congenital heart disease. Tattoo would be a bit harder to get rid of.

If a player did try to cheese their way past it with Grafts or some sort of homebrew "Bionics" or something I'd probably make that demand. You get surgery to remove it and give it to someone else more worthy, befitting your Exalted status.

[Rubik]

If a player did try to cheese their way past it with Grafts or some sort of homebrew "Bionics" or something I'd probably make that demand. You get surgery to remove it and give it to someone else more worthy, befitting your Exalted status.But you'd have to beg someone to get the surgery for free, because you can't pay anyone for anything. Basically, you have to shame someone into it, or steal it somehow.

VoP characters are such selfish bastards.

[ArcturusV]

Or just pay someone for it before you take the Vow, since you wouldn't get the mechanical benefits until you gave it up. :smallwink:

[ShriekingDrake]

While not a traditionally fantastic feat, I would recommend considering Gift of Discernment from PGtF, if you're going to take VoP. At the cost of one bonus exalted feat slot, you get the benefit of getting a warning from the DM if you're about to violate your vow. I think this a rather clever way to avoid the perennial fights that exist around VoP. It is a feat that creates a meta-character solution to a common problem. VoP gives you so many extra slots, it is worth taking this one early to ensure that you don't cross the VoP line.

[Rubik]

While not a traditionally fantastic feat, I would recommend considering Gift of Discernment from PGtF, if you're going to take VoP. At the cost of one bonus exalted feat slot, you get the benefit of getting a warning from the DM if you're about to violate your vow. I think this a rather clever way to avoid the perennial fights that exist around VoP. It is a feat that creates a meta-character solution to a common problem. VoP gives you so many extra slots, it is worth taking this one early to ensure that you don't cross the VoP line.That, and most exalted feats are nearly useless anyway. Might as well blow one on something your DM should do for you regardless.

Emphasis on *should.*

[Talya]

So, I was just giving this some more thought and I remembered threads where people tried to do things like purposefully spend all their gold on inherent bonuses and grafts then take VoP at 18. This has generally been poo-poo'd as a stupid exploit, disingenuous to VoP and Exalted status and "gaining benefits from gold expenditures".


Just a side point: VOP characters can relatively easily get the same inherent bonuses as other players, due to the goodwill they build up from donations to temples and such. (Rules for that are covered in BoED.)

Grafts, notsomuch.

[Deophaun]

Grafts, notsomuch.
Oh no. Grafts are easy. You just need to find a mad wizard in search of test subjects. Now, getting a graft that you actually want is another matter.

[IamL]

A first-leveled unarmored monk taking Vow of Poverty has an 18 AC, plus his/her undoubtedly high Dex. I once had a player with a 22 unarmored AC AT FIRST LEVEL. I don't know why so many people are dissing it.

[Larkas]

Because after first level a monk without access to magic items will suffer.

[Terazul]

Because after first level a monk without access to magic items will suffer.

Everything VoP gives you is to make up for the fact you don't get magic items in the first place. Oh cool you've got AC 22. Oh wait, now so do I. "But at first level!" Yeah, it's first level. First level is boring. Congratulations, it's hard to hit you! What else can you do?

I also find it funny how often people stress that it's unarmored AC, which is only because they're not allowed to wear it in the first place. Or benefit from all the delicious magical effects entailed.

[Karnith]

A first-leveled unarmored monk taking Vow of Poverty has an 18 AC, plus his/her undoubtedly high Dex. I once had a player with a 22 unarmored AC AT FIRST LEVEL. I don't know why so many people are dissing it.
Generally speaking, spending a feat on something that will really only benefit you at first level, and that will basically cripple you at higher levels, is considered weak. And that's what Vow of Poverty does. It gets bonus points, though, for being unavailable at level 1 for most characters.

Also, I'm not sure why a monk would have an "undoubtedly high Dex." Monks are pretty MAD, and Dexterity would not be my first choice in terms of assigning ability scores. I might rank it third, I guess?

[IamL]

It does allow you, however, to take Constitution as a dump stat if you're a monk taking VOP at first level since it's very hard to hit you. Also, at high level, you can kick butt because you don't need to breathe, you're immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and other mind-reading abilities, and you have damage reduction 10 against evil creatures, continuous true sight, elemental damage resistance 15, enhanced regeneration, and you've gotten bonus feats. For what? Not being able to use magic items, several of which YOU COULDN'T USE WELL AS A MONK ANYWAY.

[IamL]

Oh, and forgot to add Exalted Strike. +5 to all attack and damage rolls.

[Vaz]

AC is already binary, higher AC does that for you for longer (ish). You don't drop Constitution. Ever. I don't want to ever say "and not even then" but this is one of those occasions where i might relax my own rules.

[Rubik]

AC is already binary, higher AC does that for you for longer (ish). You don't drop Constitution. Ever. I don't want to ever say "and not even then" but this is one of those occasions where i might relax my own rules.The only two exceptions I can think of are if you're undead or a construct (and thus don't have a Con score), or if you have some other source of bonus hp (such as with the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat) and very large bonuses to Fort saves.

...none of which VoP gives you.

[ShriekingDrake]

That, and most exalted feats are nearly useless anyway. Might as well blow one on something your DM should do for you regardless.

Emphasis on *should.*

Agreed. I wouldn't recommended taking it if there weren't so many available open slots to fill in VoPs bonus exalted feats.

[Xenogears]

I'd probably be something to get a book/fist thrown at you. Least around groups I've seen where you try to "break" the rules by turning all your liquid assets into say... magical tattoos with continuous/limited per day effects so you still have all the bonuses. Or burn it on trying to get biological implants or some sort of clockwork bionics or something.

It's squiffy. It's legit probably by the strict reading of the rules. After all you can't "give away" a tattoo or some secondary dragon heart beating inside your chest...

... actually I guess you COULD. Use however you originally got a graft, or some sort of makeshift magitek bionics, remove it from yourself, go give it to something like the orphan with congenital heart disease. Tattoo would be a bit harder to get rid of.

If a player did try to cheese their way past it with Grafts or some sort of homebrew "Bionics" or something I'd probably make that demand. You get surgery to remove it and give it to someone else more worthy, befitting your Exalted status.

Grafts are impossible to salvage once attached. So either destroy your graft for no benefit of anyone else (not really a good action) or just have grafts. Which one sounds like the more exalted option? Most of the good grafts are fiendish anyway and you don't want those on a good character (wisdom loss IRIC)

[Karnith]

It does allow you, however, to take Constitution as a dump stat if you're a monk taking VOP at first level since it's very hard to hit you. Also, at high level, you can kick butt because you don't need to breathe, you're immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and other mind-reading abilities, and you have damage reduction 10 against evil creatures, continuous true sight, elemental damage resistance 15, enhanced regeneration, and you've gotten bonus feats. For what? Not being able to use magic items, several of which YOU COULDN'T USE WELL AS A MONK ANYWAY.
On why VoP is a bad idea:Not needing to breathe is an extremely narrow and situational benefit; it's not even worth a +1 level adjustment (see e.g. races of air (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfAir)), and is replicable by an iridescent ioun stone. Mind shielding is basically useless; how often will you be failing your saving throw against a second-level spell at 8th level, how often do enemies target you with either detect thoughts or discern lies, and most importantly how often do those situations come up? DR 5/magic is worthless, because everything you fight will either have magic weapons or weapons that count as magic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. DR 5/evil is better, as it might actually reduce the amount of damage you take, but most enemies will be dealing far, far more damage in single hits by 15th level. And DR 10/evil at 19th level is similarly weak. Also, for the record, it's not damage reduction against evil creatures, it's damage reduction that evil creatures (well, evil weapons) can overcome. Continuous true sight comes online at 18th level, or well past the point that other people have had access to the spell. The regeneration that VoP gets you is the terrible kind where you heal 1 point of damage per level per hour, rather than the actually good kind (like trolls have), and is not worth discussing. Energy resistance is fine, but you can get the effect from a second-level spell. Freedom of movement is good (one of the best things you get, which makes it strange that you didn't mention it), but it's also on a ring that everyone buys. There are very few good exalted feats, and the bonus exalted feats will do very little for you after the first two or three. And the bonuses you get to AC and your weapons (to-hit and damage rolls) are easily replicable by actually buying magic items (weapons, armor, amulet of natural armor, bracers of armor, and what have you).

By giving up the ability to use magic items, you lose the ability to have stat-boosting items, which under WBL will be equivalent to, if not better than, the VoP bonuses, you can't have special abilities on weapons and armor, which are the things you actually want on them, as opposed to flat bonuses, you lose access to the magic items that let you boost your AC effectively, and you have no access to items that grant flight, teleportation, mind blank, special condition immunity (i.e. immunity to stun, daze, fear, etc.), miss chances, which are generally speaking better than AC, and initiative bonuses.

If you are a VoP monk, especially, you will be crippled by your low ability scores, since the VoP stat bonuses are slow and the monk is so MAD, your low attack bonuses, between your medium BAB, MAD, and inability to stat-boosting items and/or neckalce of natural attacks, your low armor class, because the VoP bonuses will trail behind item-based AC boosters (after already being behind because you can't wear armor), you won't be effective against enemies that can fly or teleport (or enemies at a range, generally), you won't be able to overcome most forms of damage reduction, and you'll have to deal with all the usual monk problems. Monks are among the most gear-dependent classes in the game, and denying them of their items is going to hurt them a lot.

If you want to play a character who has taken a vow of poverty for character/story/role-playing reasons, then taking VoP is a good way to recoup some of the losses that your lifestyle will entail. If you are trying to play an effective character, however, VoP is going to severely limit your ability to keep up with your party members and contribute to the game at anything but the lowest of op-levels. D&D as a game was built around the assumption that you would have access to a certain level of wealth/items, and by denying yourself those resources you will frequently find yourself unable to deal with situations that would otherwise not pose a challenge to you.

[Talya]

Also, at high level, you can kick butt

Hahaha... You used the phrase "kick butt" in reference to a monk. That's pretty funny. Good one.

Seriously, the monk is the weakest melee class in the game to start with, excepting maybe the CW Samurai. VoP makes them much, much weaker. It will never help you to "kick butt."

[IamL]

IMO, monks benefit from VoP. It also fits with the theme of the monk as well.

[Rubik]

IMO, monks benefit from VoP.Yeah, in the same way that wizards benefit from having their spellbooks burned.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Yeah, in the same way that wizards benefit from having their spellbooks burned.

There's an Eidetic Wizard joke in there somewhere.

[Karnith]

It also fits with the theme of the monk as well.
Unfortunately, while VoP may fit the theme of the monk class, D&D 3.5 is a system that is really heavily based around players either having access to spells, magic items, or both. Not just for bigger numbers on your character (which VoP does, if poorly), but also in order to get around enemy immunities (whether from Damage Reduction, regeneration, spells, etc.), to deal with enemy movement (flight, teleportation, and other movement modes), and to counter enemy's abilities/magic (e.g. mind blank against dominate person, death ward against finger of death, and so on). When you take VoP, you severely limit your ability to deal with any of these things in order to get flat bonuses that are, at most levels, well below what you could get just by buying magic items. Beyond a certain point, you become unable to deal with a lot of problems that should be level-appropriate because VoP simply doesn't give you the tools you need to deal with them. So you're left either hoping that other players will spend their precious resources to make you somewhat competent, or you sit back and do nothing.

It doesn't help the monk specifically that it is probably the most gear-dependent class in the game.

[Vaz]

With Wizards and Clerics in the party, they should be buffing you. Problem is in optimization, Spellslots and PP go towards self alone.

optimizing a VOP Monk starts with not taking VOP, and is followed by not taking Monk.

[Rubik]

With Wizards and Clerics in the party, they should be buffing you.That depends. Do they have other things to do with their spell slots? If the wizard specializes in battlefield control, he might not want to spend all his slots buffing you. The cleric might want to be a healbot instead (and the best divine buffs are self-only anyway).

Every character should be able to fulfill his role in the party without having to beg competence off of other party members. Otherwise, they're just a drag on resources and the party is better off Planar Binding something.

[Talya]

IMO, monks benefit from VoP. It also fits with the theme of the monk as well.

There is nothing that VOP gives that a monk will not get better with standard wealth by level as they level up. Furthermore, there are plenty of things monks absolutely require to be even marginally effective that VOP does not give, and without magic items, most monks can never acquire.

Don't get me wrong, I actually like VOP, but monk's one of the worst classes to use it on. Sorcerer? Sure. Druid? Absolutely. Hell, unarmed swordsage works alright. Even Paladin doesn't suffer as badly from VOP as Monk does. The monk will be far, far worse off with VOP than they are without it.

[ArcturusV]

The real reason to take Vow of Poverty as a monk is if you are playing something that ICily already requires you to more or less play up a Vow of Poverty anyway. Like... the Henshin Mystic if I remember, who's description mentioned that they are basically penniless wanderers who help out locals and depend entirely on the charity of others to survive and the good will their good deeds builds up.

I mean if you're doing something like that, which already pigeonholes you into that VoP role... why not get the feat and at least have some benefits from it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It does allow you, however, to take Constitution as a dump stat if you're a monk taking VOP at first level since it's very hard to hit you. Also, at high level, you can kick butt because you don't need to breathe, you're immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and other mind-reading abilities, and you have damage reduction 10 against evil creatures, continuous true sight, elemental damage resistance 15, enhanced regeneration, and you've gotten bonus feats. For what? Not being able to use magic items, several of which YOU COULDN'T USE WELL AS A MONK ANYWAY.


Oh, and forgot to add Exalted Strike. +5 to all attack and damage rolls.

My archer fighter with Wings of Flying and a couple thousand arrows (assuming you deign to keep track of that) is going to fly around fifty feet above you and shoot you until you die. Have fun trying to kill me with sling stones.

And that's just an archer fighter. Wizard? Cloudkill, Force Cage. He's also flying because he cast Overland Flight this morning. Druid? Enough summoning and blasty spells will kill you. Cleric? Same thing, except he's got access to Calling spells.

[Vaz]

Totemist, Draconic Wings Bind, profit.

[Talya]

Totemist, Draconic Wings Bind, profit.

You aren't allowed to profit.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Totemist, Draconic Wings Bind, profit.

If you're trying to defend the monk...

1. You're now a totemist. Totemist is a class that works with VoP.

2.

You can fly up to 10 feet for each point of essentia you have invested in your dragon mantle, though you must begin and end each such move on a solid surface or you fall.
That's not very good for reaching fliers. And the opponent can always fly/Air Walk higher.

[Vaz]

I asn't trying to defend the monk. The Totemist and Druid mechanicaly and thematically work with VoP, and too many forget, slagging it off on virtue of monk alone.

Gotta admit i forgot the clause about falling.

A (Dragonborn Mongrelfolk) Totemist with Draconic Aura Swiftness can gain a further +20ft speed, throw on VoP for +8 to Con you have +14 Con on a typically 18 Con already. Get your party to Wish a further +4-5 inherent for a total of 36 Con, aka 8+19d8+260HP (average 353.5).

I did forget the Manticore belt though, Fly 10ft/invested.

To become a decent flier, either Totem Embodoment (totemist 20 - gets 13minutes of up to 140ft (clumsy) fly, with a 1d6+str range attack), or take advantage of totem rager for melee optimization.

[Phelix-Mu]

And the VoP debate rages on.

Flavor-wise, it's awesome. Mechanically, a DM would be well-advised to give the player additional custom exalted feats, to increase resistance, deflection, and natural armour bonuses accrued to +5 each, and maybe look into homebrew re-balancing of the VoP concept. For monk in particular, the ki strike exalted feats need to be reforged into something that is actually useful, and Touch of Golden Ice probably should have a DC that scales with HD, or at least one that advances by +2 or so at certain level benchmarks. Maybe a flat DC based on Charisma? Ick, drop stat for most monks...maybe Con?

People always insist that you can do it better with money. This is true, but it misses the point of being virtuous. Accepting hardship and pledging to aid others ahead of personal benefit is what being exceptionally good is all about. Several have insisted that it is the height of folly (even tantamount to being evil) to reject a beneficial tool in favor of virtue, and this is a fine opinion, but as I've said before, the book pretty much comes right out and says that voluntary poverty is an act of goodness.

In short, if you want to critique the mechanical benefit/disadvantage of VoP, fine, and I'm probably going to agree with you on many point. But don't conflate strategic/tactical disadvantage with alignment implications.

/rant. Sorry if any of this was off-topic.

[TuggyNE]

You aren't allowed to profit.

How about this, then?


Totemist
Draconic Wings Bind
???
Prophet!

[Deophaun]

And that's just an archer fighter. Wizard? Cloudkill, Force Cage. He's also flying because he cast Overland Flight this morning. Druid? Enough summoning and blasty spells will kill you. Cleric? Same thing, except he's got access to Calling spells.
To be fair, "You can be killed by a tier 1 with no effort" is a flaw of pretty much every non-tier 1 class, regardless of how they allocate their character resources.

The question is, can a Truenamer effortlessly kill a VoP Monk?

[Hiro Protagonest]

To be fair, "You can be killed by a tier 1 with no effort" is a flaw of pretty much every non-tier 1 class, regardless of how they allocate their character resources.

The question is, can a Truenamer effortlessly kill a VoP Monk?

Yes, but there are magic items and a Totemist soulmeld that can teleport you out of the forcecage. So it's mostly a question of how long they can last.

Truenamer's more of a helper than a soloer. Buffs and debuffs, mostly.

[IamL]

My archer fighter with Wings of Flying and a couple thousand arrows (assuming you deign to keep track of that) is going to fly around fifty feet above you and shoot you until you die. Have fun trying to kill me with sling stones.

Eat my deflect arrows and catch arrows, plus my high AC. Anything else?


And that's just an archer fighter. Wizard? Cloudkill, Force Cage. He's also flying because he cast Overland Flight this morning. Druid? Enough summoning and blasty spells will kill you. Cleric? Same thing, except he's got access to Calling spells.

Again, losing to a tier 1 is less a monk using VoP's downfall and more the downfall of everybody outside tier 1.

[Deophaun]

Eat my deflect arrows and catch arrows, plus my high AC. Anything else?
Let's just hope he doesn't have rapid shot or manyshot. Few archers know about those feats, so you should be okay.

[Talya]

AC is not going to be unusually high, either. Barring builds that focus on making AC extremely high, by the time flight kicks in, AC is almost irrelevant for the first attack in any turn, though it may work a bit for iteratives.

[Rubik]

AC is not going to be unusually high, either.And given how MAD monks are, neither is Dex.

[IamL]

I put Dex second. One of my players is always a monk. Always. And 90% of the time, he's a full monk. Here's my list:
Str
Dex
Wis
Con
Int
Cha

[IamL]

You know what? I'll create a monk using VoP, then one of you will create a monk not using VoP. We'll have 'em fight at level 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20, using standard wealth. 40-point buy.

[Larkas]

Poor thing.

:smallsmile::smallcool:

YEEEEEEEAAAAAAAH!!!

[Karnith]

You know what? I'll create a monk using VoP, then one of you will create a monk not using VoP. We'll have 'em fight at level 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20, using standard wealth. 40-point buy.
Generally speaking, arena-style fights between two characters aren't a good way to demonstrate the effectiveness of a build. Not only are most combat scenarios not one-on-one, but what makes a character effective is his ability to contribute in different ways. Combat is only one of these. A VoP monk will probably be less competent than a non-VoP one in combat, but a VoP monk will be even less effective outside of combat.

Poor thing.

:smallsmile::smallcool:

YEEEEEEEAAAAAAAH!!!
Always appropriate (http://cow.org/csi).

[Deophaun]

I'll create a monk using VoP, then one of you will create a monk not using VoP. We'll have 'em fight at level 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20, using standard wealth.
Oh dear Pelor. Two characters whose biggest strength is being the last thing targeted in the party are going to "fight."

[Karnith]

Oh dear Pelor. Two characters whose biggest strength is being the last thing targeted in the party are going to "fight."
With any luck they'll just give up and run away after they realize that neither one can hit the other.

More seriously, the difference in op-level between the two builds is probably going to be the biggest deciding factor anyway. It would be better to have a single monk build, and compare its stats and capabilities under VoP to those when someone has used WBL to equip the character.

[IamL]

Generally speaking, arena-style fights between two characters aren't a good way to demonstrate the effectiveness of a build. Not only are most combat scenarios not one-on-one, but what makes a character effective is his ability to contribute in different ways. Combat is only one of these.

Given, but monks aren't buffers, debuffers, or skill monkeys anyway.

[ArcturusV]

Of course the other part of the Arena Fight problem that Karnith didn't mention there is that the Arena Fight situation basically only rewards two ideas. One is creating a character that at least Temporarily has "Immunity: Damage". But more commonly it's the ability to blow their entire wad as quickly as possible to destroy a single enemy without concern.

Which isn't practical in a game situation, as typically (Other than the Random Encounter on the way to the actual adventure location), you have to worry about sustainability of a build as well, and being able to potentially be effective for several combats a day, not just one. And things like your DM throwing ambushes at you while you are "resting" and replenishing resources so being able to fight off enemies when you are otherwise depleted.

[Karnith]

Given, but monks aren't buffers, debuffers, or skill monkeys anyway.
Well, monks do get 4 + Int modifier skills per level, and their skill list also allows them to sneak/scout pretty well (considering), and you could also try being the party face with diplomacy and sense motive. A VoP monk will have a much weaker ability to meet skill checks than a non-VoP monk because VoP doesn't offer any skill bonuses, and that's not even getting into items that assist sneaking/scouting/facing in other ways. I certainly wouldn't call them skill monkeys by any stretch, but they do have built-in noncombat roles.

Also, ArcturusV covered some other issues with arena combat.

[nedz]

Well Nymph's Kiss should probably be your first bonus feat, but that's just a nit pick really.

People normally compare VoP with an equivalent WBL Christmas Tree. This is entirely reasonable, however real games are rarely WBL by the book. One advantage of VoP is that it is completely independent of the games actual WBL parameter. So in games where this parameter is low then VoP is better. There is probably some cut off point, some fraction of WBL, where VoP balances with actual WBL; though that would likely vary by level. VoP may be a good choice in games which are below this point.

Another advantage of VoP is that it can't be stolen, misplaced, melted or disjunctioned; so in games where this sort of thing happens a lot, it might be worthwhile.

[Lans]

Actually it is a good question in this context. If he is taking VoP because he thinks it will make for a good roleplaying experience then we can just tell him what exalted feats are worth taking. If he, mistakenly, believes VoP is strong mechanically (as some people do) then he should be informed of his error.

So asking why he is taking the feat is a very valid question.

What if your just very lazy and don't want to deal with equipment and wealth?


My archer fighter with Wings of Flying and a couple thousand arrows (assuming you deign to keep track of that) is going to fly around fifty feet above you and shoot you until you die. Have fun trying to kill me with sling stones.

Run away! In all seriousness run away!

The monk could try Ringing the Golden Bell+Decisive Strike+Ability Focus+Stunning Fist, but I think that's only about a 40% chance of stunning a fighter, and the said fighter can probably deal three times the monks hp a round making the whole "ha ha you can't reach me!" thing utterly pointless.
animal devotion, I think there is a church organization thing that gives overland flight, raptoran, dragonborn, wild shape monk.

Edit A bit more back on topic- Are their any exalted feats other than the ones from BoED?