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Ozfer
2013-02-25, 10:13 PM
So, I have been doing a long-running campaign, and I noticed that one of my players was creating a lot of back-up characters. I saw this as both an awesome opportunity for storytelling, and a way to alleviate bore-dome with his character. Another big plus, was that this particular player tended to gravitate towards Chaotic Stupid. The characters he was making were paladins. I could convert him to a lawful character?!? DONE!

I took him aside and said, "How attached are you to your character?" Basically, he was really excited to cooperate with me to create an epic death scene, and get a new character.

I didn't want to give him too much information, but we eventually decided on a death that involved collapsing things to save many members of his race (Dwarves). Keep in mind, the only thing I changed with the campaign, was that I gave him a tip-off at where he could throw the game. All else was pre-planned.

So, in-game, the players went into a dwarven outpost, found around 100 cornered, bloodied dwarves, and fled from pursuing orcs. Then, the designated-suicide-player saw his cue and collapsed the cavern on himself, crushing all the orcs and saving his kin.

When it came out later that this was planned, the other players expressed anger and jealousy. They calmed down quickly enough, when I explained that I was open to any of them engaging in DM co-op, but I was wondering what everyone else's stance was on this. Not just on my situation, but if you've done it yourself, and if the players liked it.

Understand, I am not asking for advice. My game is fine (Although I won't be doing this again!), I'm just curious on your opinions.

Rorrik
2013-02-25, 10:52 PM
I wouldn't have any complaint about this, as long as there was no number fudging involved. In my games I look for opportunities to help the players along. I like to chat with them one-on-one to see what they're thinking so I can have things ready for them when they get there. This is mostly because my settings are massive and only partially outlined. I need to feel them out and know they plan on searching a library in an abandoned mansion so I can have a list of titles to give them.

As far as letting them help plan what happens next. That happens from time to time. I figure some players feel left out when someone else is more involved than they are, but it doesn't ever cause a problem.

Jack of Spades
2013-02-25, 11:00 PM
This sort of situation is a big reason why the "Players vs. DM" style of play is less fun. Collaborating to make something awesome happen is what the game is all about.

That said, it would've been even more cool if the dwarf had just done that without it having been planned :smallamused:

FreakyCheeseMan
2013-02-25, 11:01 PM
*Blinks*

Did all of your players just get jealous over dying, and then calm down when your offered them the opportunity for mass suicide?

Jack of Spades
2013-02-25, 11:08 PM
*Blinks*

Did all of your players just get jealous over dying, and then calm down when your offered them the opportunity for mass suicide?

You're right, it does sound like something you'd see on this thread, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272409) doesn't it?

dukeofwolfsgate
2013-02-25, 11:31 PM
As a player in a Legend of the Five Rings game, I had my character (who had recently found out he was tainted by the shadowlands, and would eventually go crazy, etc.)deliberately challenge a fellow player's character to a duel. While we were friendly above-board, our samurai characters had a longstanding quarrel. His character was optimized for dueling, while mine was better at archery. When it became obvious that I would accept nothing less than a duel to the death, the GM took me aside and asked what I was doing. I explained that I wanted to start a new character, and that my in game rationalization was that my character wanted to die to avoid madness. My GM loved it, and we proceeded with the duel, resulting in my death.

It all worked out in the end, and I would totally allow this kind of thing in my own 3.5 D&D campaign if one of my players wanted to do it.

Ozfer
2013-02-25, 11:44 PM
Duke, that is really awesome.

And freaky, when you put it like that, it does sound rather insane.

Jack of Spades, your right, but my players are still a little lacking on the role-playing side of things. things I'm slowly introducing them to different in-game options through things like this, and gradually they are getting better. Gradually.

Scorpier
2013-02-26, 08:53 AM
I think it's a good idea, long as it's in moderation. I've been in a campaign with a guy who decided he didn't like his character so he wanted to die, then came up with about a million stupid, out of character, in no way resembling any kind of roleplaying ever ways for his character to die. (He ended up running into traps and dying...) I have no qualms if it makes sense from a role playing PoV.

GnomeFighter
2013-02-26, 09:56 AM
If someone is fed up with the charicter, fine, work something out.

If you have a player who is up for an epic death to help the story along, brilliant! Like killing stars in TV shows and films, you can't do it often, but when you do it can work realy well.

We had one where the GM killed of one of the PCs without letting any of the other players know it was agreed. The player then played another PC for about 6 months, only to turn out to be a spy and for the origonal PC to come back and out him having been captured buy the spys govenment. Brilliant, but it made the other players treat every new PC like you treat doors after forgetting to check for traps once at the wrong time.

Joe the Rat
2013-02-26, 10:05 AM
This kind of stuff leads to memorable moments, and is a good way to retire a character mid-adventure. Makes for good story-telling.

Although I admit, sometimes it's the surprise of the other players that makes this fun. If your group is pretty solid, it's even more hilariousdramatic if you have a co-conspirator.

randomhero00
2013-02-26, 10:16 AM
About a 1/3rd of my characters have pre-planned deaths because its more awesome that way and my characters rarely die...so I have to kill 'em off at some point :smalltongue: retiring is for chumps! :smallbiggrin:

Angel Bob
2013-02-26, 10:33 AM
One of my group's players gets bored with his characters very quickly, which has been obvious since about our fifth session. However, we were all absolutely clueless as to how D&D ought to work. Ergo, our DM ended up describing how our group triumphantly walked out of the noob cave... and then our druid tripped and fell into a giant pit full of spikes and fire and death.

I look back on that entire year of gaming with shame.

yougi
2013-02-26, 10:52 AM
I did it twice in my current campaign, but in two very different ways:

1) When the team got together at first, no one wanted to play a cleric, but they all wanted one in the team: two guys wanted to do fighter-classes (weird right?), and one of them said he'd do a cleric instead, but just one, and as soon as he could he'd make his barbarian instead. At the 4th or 5th session, the other fighter died, the party fled, and the LN Cleric stayed behind to cover their escape. It made sense in the story, changed a TPK in a HPK (Half-party kill). The death was planned for a long time, and openly, but the when, the where and the how just came right on the spot.

2) Two players decided to make brothers: one was a Bard, the other a Cleric. The Cleric guy built it horribly, and he couldn't learn all of the spells and what they did. The team also met an NPC Favored Soul/Paladin a few weeks prior. As I am the one who gives the Cleric players rides from the game, we talked, and he said he really liked that character and wish he could play it instead. We made this little deal that I'd make his Cleric die in the most unfair way, and then let him play the FS/Pal. So for one quest, the PCs must assassinate a traitor Baron in his own castle: they instead let him escape, they have the Duke's army come in the city and arrest those who were on the Baron's side. As it's late in the day in game, the players decide to sleep near the Duke's army's tents that they set up in town. And, just in case, they take turns on guard duty: Bard, then Cleric, then Rogue, then Barbarian. So I go, as usual: "(Bard's name), your turn goes fine. At some point, *rolls*, (Rogue) wakes up on his own. It's almost morning, and (Cleric) didn't wake you up for your turn on guard duty. He's actually nowhere to be found. Actually, there isn't a single soul in the entire town. It's entirely empty." They eventually found his backpack and holy symbol inside a locked building.

I still don't know the in game reason why that happened. The players sometimes think back to that event and brainstorm how it could be related to the plot, and I might pick up one of their theories at some point, but it gave the Bard some sense of conflict (it's his brother who just disappeared), brought this new character with his own baggage, who had this great dynamic with the Rogue, and the Barbarian stopped complaining about how useless the Cleric was. It was pretty awesome.

Jay R
2013-02-26, 11:04 AM
*Blinks*

Did all of your players just get jealous over dying, and then calm down when your offered them the opportunity for mass suicide?

It read to me like they got upset over being mere observers in a pre-scripted story that didn't involve them.

It's the equivalent of saying, "OK, today's scenario is a football game. Fred's character is the star of one team who will win the game, and the rest of you are in the stands cheering."

Guizonde
2013-02-26, 04:38 PM
i'm not sure of the details, but in my half-sleep (we game at night, and it seems the conversation was in the early afternoon after the session) i think i heard the dm and his brother (plays a fighter... badly, and wants to reroll)conspire about a reason for his fighter to retire. not die, retire.

possible reasons he could leave the party:

-he owes the sorceror 3,500gp at level 5
-he's a snobby aristocrat and could very well hate being in company of a halfling drunk monk (future drunken master PrC), an elven rogue, and a clearly deranged dwarf cleric.
-he's developped a kind of split personnality (he doesn't resist sleepiness, and we game from 10pm to 7am) since the dm winds up playing him when his brother goes to bed. so it's totally possible he fled during a schizophrenic episode.

since the two parties are ok with it, i'll play dumb for now, but i can't wait to see how it goes, especially since we're in a pretty dangerous fortress for the next few in-game days/weeks. so the planned retirement might totally turn out as an unplanned (but welcomed) death.

Dimers
2013-02-26, 10:59 PM
Once I was in a group that had gotten too large for my taste, so the GM and I arranged a semi-heroic death for my PC, and I started to help with running the game instead. The death helped point out how dangerous things were, but it wasn't very special or high-impact in any other way.

Minitroll
2013-02-27, 12:32 AM
One of my Pathfinder peeps I think intended his own death, but he was ticked when he died. He was fighting a fire druid, and he was a Summoner. His Eidelon had been banished, and he was at low hit points and nearly no weapons. The fighters were Entangled and much damage was being dealt to the PCs. So, this summoner ran forward with a barrel of flammable alcohol (he was a dwarf) and smashed it into himself as he jumped to the druid, catching the forest on fire and breaking his concentration so the party could run away and come back to win later. However, he did this with 2 hit points left.

I can't tell if he wanted death, because he was surprised and annoyed when he took 20 damage from being in the center of a fiery explosion of doom and he loved his character. This character, on the other hand, got away with some crazy stuff- like running over enemies riding on a table down a staircase that some humans were running up with a chair hitting anyone who dodged his table.

I don't know how to react with the suicide- the group's only level 2, so they don't have enough for a Resurrection and haven't gained favor with anyone. Does anyone know if I should let him make a new character as it may be what he wants (he's apathetic and when I asked him his reply was 'meh') or try to bring the character back.

Tengu_temp
2013-02-27, 10:11 AM
I approve of pre-planned events, be them cool PC deaths or something else. Sure, it's better if that stuff happens spontaneously, but that's much rarer. And they're not mutually exclusive, you can have both in a game.

My most memorable planned PC death was when one player was leaving the group, so in the middle of a huge fight his character sacrificed himself to take a shot for another PC, who got critted with an autofire attack (which tends to induce ridiculous damage in M&M) by a named bad guy. This made the other PCs so angry at the bad guy that they ganged up on him and killed him on the spot, even though I planned for him to get away. No, I didn't pull a Deus Ex Machina to make him survive regardless; they earned it.


It read to me like they got upset over being mere observers in a pre-scripted story that didn't involve them.

It's the equivalent of saying, "OK, today's scenario is a football game. Fred's character is the star of one team who will win the game, and the rest of you are in the stands cheering."

It doesn't look like the others had nothing to do here. It looks like the OP just cut down the story to the relevant parts. The others got annoyed when they thought the player got preferential treatment, and calmed down when they learned they can get their own cool scripted events too.

geeky_monkey
2013-02-27, 10:57 AM
To be honest, if I'd been one of the players it'd leave a sour taste in my mouth.

I'd worry that every cool thing that had happened so far in the campaign had been due to the DM giving out information to players away from the table rather than just happening and I'd probably lose interest in the game.

I like my magical stand-out moments to happen organically and not be scripted away from the table.

Hyena
2013-02-27, 11:04 AM
Personally, can't see a problem here. I was a spectator of a few planned deaths and my characters've died a few times that way.
The only thing I have to say about that problem - make sure your players either can't help the doomed one or are not willing due to knowing that PC is doomed - or it will result in the comedy - PCs trying to save their comrade, why you and one of the players keep thinking of the reasons why it's impossible.

Ozfer
2013-02-27, 11:06 AM
Minitroll- Ask him what he would prefer. If he makes a new character, he can rejoin the game earlier. If he wants to get rezzed, he will have to wait longer.

Geeky monkey- Yea, I can see what you mean. I don't have to worry too much about that though, because I have somewhat of a reputation for not giving quarter to characters who do stupid things. TPK's will happen. So will plain old PC deaths.

Tengu- Yea, there were a lot of other things going on at the same time. There were no cutscene moments or anything, and every choice was made by the players (I suppose fleeing from an army could be seen as railroading, but... Meh. It made sense within the context).

llehctim
2013-03-21, 06:21 PM
When I was younger I tended to play games that had a fairly high mortality rate or risk of death, and in some of them you couldn't be brought back without severe complications such as system shock, permanent con loss or possession. So I got really good at making new characters and quite enjoy it, these days my characters don't die off as much so I have several times done scripted deaths of characters or in a few cases just plain retired them.
Highlights of these deaths include when an incredibly powerful enemy discovered the identity of one of the other members of the party, my character followed them home and threw them out of the way of a arch-lich's fireball (at lvl 2 taking it himself). There were other times that I stood behind to cover the parties retreat, since my characters had in character reason and I am less likely to be upset at the loss of a character than other people.
Unless my character was suffering severe hypothermia, and unconscious, and was "fed" a hot sandwich WHOLE, while unconscious. It helps to have meaningful deaths, not ignoble ones.

Clericzilla
2013-03-21, 08:17 PM
*Blinks*

Did all of your players just get jealous over dying, and then calm down when your offered them the opportunity for mass suicide?

That is so full of win I can't even describe how awesome it is.

But on topic...

Every time I make a character, I want him/her to die. The best thing about having an epic character with a story is having an epic ending go along with it. Usually the "and he lived happily ever after" sucks at the end of a campaign... I want to go out in style!

And then wreck hell in the afterlife ;)

My current wizard may or may not die while saving the party from one of the rulers of hell (some Ex-Duke Demon/Devil guy).

Malrone
2013-03-21, 08:43 PM
I want my character's endings to be dramatic, or at least appropriate. My normal DM is usually very good about these story things, and is open to some consultation about what you want from your future; You'll never get him to reveal details, however. (Though he will let you die from your own stupidity).

I've begun dabbling in DMing myself for my siblings and their significants. Must say I was at a loss for words when my sister asked if I would cause a TPK. "It'll be fun," she says. No, no, this isn't Dwarf Fortress.

Logic
2013-03-21, 09:12 PM
It works when the DM and the player are in agreement as to how it should happen.

I was playing a Mechwarrior campaign, and was not overly attached to my character. I told the DM of this, showed him my replacement character, and stated my intention to play the new character when the old one died.

His resolution? Misinterpret my actions so badly that my previous character's death was pointless and stupid.

So, it can go wrong from the player's perspective too.

Slipperychicken
2013-03-21, 10:11 PM
I'm just curious on your opinions.

It sounds like a fine way to retire the character. Much better than having him "check for traps" until he kicks it. Although other options do exist for retirement; he could have received a message that he was needed elsewhere, or decided the life of adventuring was not for him and went to ply a different trade for a while. And those both allow the character to return to the game, if the player wants to use them again. Also prevents the other PCs from looting his corpse.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2013-03-22, 05:25 AM
In my last semester of college, I joined a DnD group with the caveat that, come May, I was going to be moving away. I explained that I'd be reliable up until then, but, obviously, that was going to be that when the time came. With that in mind, I rolled up a character based around the idea that, at a predetermined point, he was going to die. Gilly Deathtined, absurdly fearless halfling paladin, was born. Now, unlike a lot of other planned deaths, Gilly's was a little more abstract; he was definitely going to die at a certain point, but that was planned in character, as well as out. Thus, in character, he acted like he was immortal until that moment came, but he could die at any moment, like any other character, OOC. It was fun because, while the whole party knew that a planned death could be coming, there was also the very distinct possibility of an unplanned death looming overhead for him, more than most characters, because I played him like he really believed nothing could stop him until the foretold day. Of course, out of character, it would be a surprising, brutal anticlimax to have him die before his "final hour," out of character, which only added to the tension.

Of course, out of character, the DM agreed not to fudge any rolls to keep him alive, so instead of having one dramatic, surprising moment when he died, we had dozens of surprising, dramatic moments where he didn't. After a few people called shenanigans, following his first few scrapes with death, it became an unspoken rule that the DM would roll on the table instead of behind the screen whenever Gilly's doom seemed imminent. Nobody asked for it, and it was normally the sort of thing we would normally do, but it honestly added to the suspense to watch the final die tumble and see where he ended up. Time after time, though, as if his in-character destiny stretched its way into the real world, he survived. After a while, I think everyone but the DM and I almost forgot, or at least almost didn't believe, that Gilly was going down, no-matter what, when the time came. So, despite everyone in the party knowing from the time we rolled our stats and filled out or sheets that his death was planned, when the moment came, I think everyone but the DM and I actually ended up really shocked that it happened. I've seen a fair amount of "planned deaths," and my share of unplanned ones, but I don't think I've ever seen a death actually make jaws drop for the majority of the party.

Lord Torath
2013-03-22, 02:12 PM
It works when the DM and the player are in agreement as to how it should happen.

I was playing a Mechwarrior campaign, and was not overly attached to my character. I told the DM of this, showed him my replacement character, and stated my intention to play the new character when the old one died.

His resolution? Misinterpret my actions so badly that my previous character's death was pointless and stupid.

So, it can go wrong from the player's perspective too.I had this happen. I was playing a fighter, and wanted to replace him with an elven fighter/mage. So the next night on guard duty, my DM hits him with 6 halfling arrows dipped in poison... the stuff that kills you if you fail your save, but still inflicts 20 points of damage even if you save. :smallfurious: But of course, there was no reason for them to attack, short of killing off my character, and they didn't follow up with attacks on the rest of the party.

In the DM's defense, he was only about 14-15, and this was very early in his DMing experience.