Demon and Dark Souls vs Drowtales vs Berserk vs Song of Ice and Fire

[t209]

Which of these 4 things are darkest of them all.
Demon and Dark Souls- You are a dude (or lady) in a world of darkness and there is little to no hope.
For Demon Soul, Demon is the only god and thousands of soul remain on the turtle thing. Dark Souls, every good ending is a cycle towards dark ages.
Game of Thrones- Barbarians are coming from the north and the once proud guards are now mainly consisted of hobos. TO make it worse, nobles squabble amongst themselves while poor suffer.
Drow Tales- Pretty much Game of thrones, except it's between drows in underground. Drows starved and overpopulated themselves. Surface, while there are humans, are unsuitable for Drows due to presence of demonic magic Currently Drow Kingdom is at civil war.
Berserk- We got 100 year war, demons, jerkass nobility
now plague, invasion by pseudo middle eastern and indian empire, and world is now crappier version of DnD Settings.
So which one would be darkest setting of them all?

[Forderz]

Insufficient Data.

Asking for a four-way throwdown requires a ton of knowledge. 2 way battles are easier, because the chances of people being familiar with 2 different media is higher than knowing about 4.

That said, Souls is probably darker than Asoiaf. Except there aren't any children, so there is no true suffering of innocents.

And does this pass muster for a vs post?

[thethird]

A song of Ice and Fire is not Dark Fantasy. Game of thrones (the first book) is totally not Dark Fantasy. So those aren't Dark at all.

I haven't played Demon or Dark souls, but as you describe them... what's the problem with that? Bittersweet endings, or downing endings don't make a dark Setting, nor having Dark in the title.

Drowtales, again, I wouldn't call Dark, originally it is an adventure, a plot hook. And it is pretty cool as is.

Berserk is darker/edgier BUT mostly because the main protagonist is totally screwed by the argument. Most of the people seem more or less okay, unless you compare it to ASoIaF which isn't Dark Fantasy to begin with. If a setting with monsters is Dark then Vanilla D&D is Dark (and it isn't).

Summing up, without being familiar with Demon/Dark Souls, I wouldn't call any of the others Dark.

[DaedalusMkV]

A song of Ice and Fire is not Dark Fantasy. Game of thrones (the first book) is totally not Dark Fantasy. So those aren't Dark at all.

I haven't played Demon or Dark souls, but as you describe them... what's the problem with that? Bittersweet endings, or downing endings don't make a dark Setting, nor having Dark in the title.

Drowtales, again, I wouldn't call Dark, originally it is an adventure, a plot hook. And it is pretty cool as is.

Berserk is darker/edgier BUT mostly because the main protagonist is totally screwed by the argument. Most of the people seem more or less okay, unless you compare it to ASoIaF which isn't Dark Fantasy to begin with. If a setting with monsters is Dark then Vanilla D&D is Dark (and it isn't).

Summing up, without being familiar with Demon/Dark Souls, I wouldn't call any of the others Dark.

Dark Souls isn't so much Dark Fantasy as absolutely pessimistic fantasy. In the end, the world is doomed and there's nothing you can do to stop it. In the mean-time, though, you can at least make things slightly less horrid for everyone else in the world. It's a pretty horrible world to live in (everything, and I do mean everything, wants you dead and your soul devoured), but that doesn't make it dark and the protagonist definitely accomplishes something major if he puts his mind to it.

Berserk, on the other hand, very much is Dark Fantasy. The world exists solely for the amusement of a dark god and people are little more than the playthings of demons. Bad things happen, good people break and overall everything is just crappy. Berserk is pretty much the definition of Dark Fantasy. From the point I got to, there was basically no hope of the villains being defeated and the good guys only survived through bloodthirsty rage and morally grey (and at times black) behaviour. If Berserk isn't Dark Fantasy, I don't know what is.

[thethird]

What Dark God in Berserk? Griffith is the main antagonist, and he is so genre savvy that he is actually making live's easier to normal humans. There isn't a clear dark god above him.

Of course that in itself is pretty dark, so I will concede that Berserk is indeed Dark fantasy.

When I think of Dark fantasy I think more of the Black Company.

[t209]

A song of Ice and Fire is not Dark Fantasy. Game of thrones (the first book) is totally not Dark Fantasy. So those aren't Dark at all.
Even if it isn't Dark Fantasy, it's pretty gritty book and series.
- It takes a look at how would alternate take on High Fantasy and Fair Tales look like with Medieval Realism (knights were bully, Damsel can be cunning, and Barbarians defenders are now manned by Hobos).
-Lots of Characters died.
- Ned Stark is representation of how chivalry would be a stupid thing.

[Tiki Snakes]

What Dark God in Berserk? Griffith is the main antagonist, and he is so genre savvy that he is actually making live's easier to normal humans. There isn't a clear dark god above him.

Of course that in itself is pretty dark, so I will concede that Berserk is indeed Dark fantasy.

When I think of Dark fantasy I think more of the Black Company.

The God Hand, presumably. The shadowy, demonic presence that orchestrate his entire rise to power and subsequent fall, all in order to get him to a place where he will betray everyone who loves him in order for Dark Power.
As for it not being dark fantasy, or very dark fantasy, remember that the series all takes place as a prequel to the first episode.

[Eldan]

There's a chapter of Berserk that was absent in later editions which shows the entity above the god hand and explains its motives. The entire world is indeed entirely twisted and doomed.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A song of Ice and Fire is not Dark Fantasy. Game of thrones (the first book) is totally not Dark Fantasy. So those aren't Dark at all.

I haven't played Demon or Dark souls, but as you describe them... what's the problem with that? Bittersweet endings, or downing endings don't make a dark Setting, nor having Dark in the title.

Drowtales, again, I wouldn't call Dark, originally it is an adventure, a plot hook. And it is pretty cool as is.

Berserk is darker/edgier BUT mostly because the main protagonist is totally screwed by the argument. Most of the people seem more or less okay, unless you compare it to ASoIaF which isn't Dark Fantasy to begin with. If a setting with monsters is Dark then Vanilla D&D is Dark (and it isn't).

Summing up, without being familiar with Demon/Dark Souls, I wouldn't call any of the others Dark.

Eh I wouldn't call the ending of Dark Souls bittersweet and there are actually two options; but SPOILER ALERT.


After you defeat the last remaining God in the land you have the option to sacrifice yourself and rekindle the flame, thus prolonging the Age of Fire and maintaining the status Quo.

If you decide to let the flame die and become the Darklord and starting the Age of Darkness.... nothing happens, the game ends at that point and you don't know what or if anything changed. Dark Souls 2 was announced recently so I guess we will have to wait to know if it changed anything.



Now on the other hand, being in the Dark Souls universe is absolutely awful, you are an undead and every time you die you are doomed to revive, until you become a hollow, devoid of all intelligence and filled with only rage.... yeah not a nice place.

[thethird]

Are you talking about Berserk the anime based in the manga? Cause I am talking about the manga, sorry if it caused confusion.

On ASoIF
People die, get over it. :smalltongue:
Seriously most characters that die are to dumb to live, to badass to live, not truly dead or probably going to get better.

And... many people die on Rambo movies, are those dark?

[Man on Fire]

What Dark God in Berserk? Griffith is the main antagonist, and he is so genre savvy that he is actually making live's easier to normal humans. There isn't a clear dark god above him.

Remeber the chapter where Griffith got transferred to that place full of Bhelits? How he saw that huge thing there and wondered if that's God?
Read about it here (http://berserk.wikia.com/wiki/Idea_of_Evil)


Most of the people seem more or less okay, unless you compare it to ASoIaF which isn't Dark Fantasy to begin with.

Nobles taking girls as sex slaves because they can. Casual Troll greeting. All the feeling of times of magic that went away to be replaced with dull every day. Pretty opressive religion. Inquisition. Plague. Several wars in which they are caugth in either as soldiers or innocent civilians. Rampaging bandits, most of which are rapists. All things Miura did to drive home being woman in this world sucks horribly. Sudden invasion of all fantastic monsters, which people have no defense against (imagine commoners being attacked by every single monster in D&D Monster Manual, with not a single adventurer anywhere*) unless they hide under protection of an army of demons.
Okay is one of last words I would ever use to describe people in Berserk.

[Eldan]

You forgot the demon emperor and his method of birthing new soldiers...

[Yora]

The reason Dark Souls is a strong contender is not what the future might hold, but what the present already is. Everything I've seen of the world is pretty much Hell. The world is dead, a grey wasteland of ruins and rotting vegetation fillied with fog and inheabted by demons, undead, and semi-living.
Maybe they just were never shown, but I don't think there are any villages with farms and children. How can that place possibly get worse?

[thethird]

Remeber the chapter where Griffith got transferred to that place full of Bhelits? How he saw that huge thing there and wondered if that's God?
Read about it here (http://berserk.wikia.com/wiki/Idea_of_Evil)

Yep missed that episode, probably wasn't even printed in my country. But since it has been retired from the Berserk continuity, taking it as canon... I don't know.

Also, as I said above, I stand corrected Berserk is dark fantasy.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The reason Dark Souls is a strong contender is not what the future might hold, but what the present already is. Everything I've seen of the world is pretty much Hell. The world is dead, a grey wasteland of ruins and rotting vegetation fillied with fog and inheabted by demons, undead, and semi-living.
Maybe they just were never shown, but I don't think there are any villages with farms and children. How can that place possibly get worse?

There are some pretty majestic views in Lortran; but they are still hell. It is implied there are towns and stuff like that since there are crusades to imprison the Undead, presumably to protect people from Hollows and the places we viit during the game are the ones who were overrun. Also we only visit a part of Anor Londo which is a city.

[Kitten Champion]

I would say ASOIAF is a dark fantasy, not in the way of Berserk or Dark Souls which are horror/fantasy, but still a high fantasy crapsack world with strong cynical themes.

The Tropes and Idioms page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkFantasy) spells out why, exactly.

[Killer Angel]

Alll I can say, is that the darkness of GoT/ASoIaF is not even a match for the grim world of Berserk

[Drascin]

What Dark God in Berserk? Griffith is the main antagonist, and he is so genre savvy that he is actually making live's easier to normal humans. There isn't a clear dark god above him.

There is the Dark Hand. Or the Idea of Evil.

And he's making "life easier for normal humans" as long as you don't mind the occasional trolls shredding your maidens and eating them and so on.

Fantasia is not a good place to be human.

[Lamech]

ASoIaF spoilers maybe...
ASoIaF... is cynical in a lot of ways. But its a lot less of "evil demons are coming to kill us all" and more of "stupid human infighting is going to kill us all". The white walkers have killed I think two people, who attacked them first. And I think they adopt babies that are left to die of exposure.

While there are some "monsters" they are all really under the control of humans. The wights while scary, aren't beyond the power of humans to create anyway. The dragons are all under human control. Shadow babies come from again humans.

Even better, if you are faithful to the one true god (of fire) you can raise the dead. And I think live forever. Or heal people. While it takes work people can learn magic and do pretty incredible things. That pyromancer and his ladder of fire, or raising wights. The obsidian candles.

The fantasy elements of ASoIaF don't make the world suck. The people in the fantasy world make it suck. That's very different from say Dark Souls, which sucks because of roaming undead.

[JabberwockySupafly]

There are some pretty majestic views in Lortran; but they are still hell. It is implied there are towns and stuff like that since there are crusades to imprison the Undead, presumably to protect people from Hollows and the places we viit during the game are the ones who were overrun. Also we only visit a part of Anor Londo which is a city.

This. Lordran is only one kingdom in the world. True it is the most important of the kingdoms, as this is where the Kiln of the First Flame is located, which needs to be relit to prevent the entire world going dark and plummeting into death, but it's not the only kingdom.

There are many more where things haven't gone to Hell. Dark Souls is a dark setting, but it's only one part of the world, not all of it, that has fallen to complete chaos and the hollow walk free. That's why there's the Asylum where the Cursed Undead and Hollow are taken to, to prevent them from overruning the rest of the world.

While the fires are dwindling throughout the entire world, Lordran's the worst of it. Most places remain relatively civil. Many of the hollows and other NPCs you meet come from other parts of the world on quests to relight the Kiln and save the world. Catarina, Vinheim, The Great Swamp, Thorolund, Astora, Carim, and Zena just to name a few other nations. Some of these places still have societies and laws at the time of the game.

[Deepbluediver]

I have read both Drowtales and A Song of Fire and Ice, and I know a little bit about the plot of Berserk (and have scene a few random episodes). I have never heard of Demon/Dark Souls.


Of the three, I would say Fire and Ice is the darkest by a long shot. Both Berserk and Drowtales have their depressing/oh-god/and then it got worse moments, but Fire and Ice is just one bad thing piled on top of another, in a never-ending cacophony of terror spread across several continents. If nothing else, it's sheer scale is unrivaled.

I read the first four books, and while the story is still interesting, I haven't gotten my hands on a copy of the 5th book because it's just so damned depressing. I have no desire to see which character is the next one to get backstabbed to death or tortured into insanity or has to deal with either of the first two happening to eveyone they love.


And I'm no longer allowed to watch the TV show with my friends after the third time when I said something like "Where are we? Oh, right, nevermind, I can see that [character X] is still alive." :P

[Actana]

There are many more where things haven't gone to Hell. Dark Souls is a dark setting, but it's only one part of the world, not all of it, that has fallen to complete chaos and the hollow walk free. That's why there's the Asylum where the Cursed Undead and Hollow are taken to, to prevent them from overruning the rest of the world.

While the fires are dwindling throughout the entire world, Lordran's the worst of it. Most places remain relatively civil. Many of the hollows and other NPCs you meet come from other parts of the world on quests to relight the Kiln and save the world. Catarina, Vinheim, The Great Swamp, Thorolund, Astora, Carim, and Zena just to name a few other nations. Some of these places still have societies and laws at the time of the game.

Though at the same time, other nations have fallen due to the undead plague. The nations of Balder and Berenike have both pretty much fallen to the undead as far as we know, and while there are the asylums, they can't keep everyone there.

And since
Reigniting the flame doesn't actually cure the undead, the undead will remain regardless. It appears to only be a matter of time until everyone is hollow.

We don't have much of a view of the outside world of Dark Souls beyond Lordran, but overall it doesn't seem a very cheery place. Certainly not as bad as the day-to-day events (that we see in the manga) of Berserk, but the Dark Souls world does seem to be very fatalistic.

[Eldan]

I have read both Drowtales and A Song of Fire and Ice, and I know a little bit about the plot of Berserk (and have scene a few random episodes). I have never heard of Demon/Dark Souls.


Of the three, I would say Fire and Ice is the darkest by a long shot. Both Berserk and Drowtales have their depressing/oh-god/and then it got worse moments, but Fire and Ice is just one bad thing piled on top of another, in a never-ending cacophony of terror spread across several continents. If nothing else, it's sheer scale is unrivaled.

I read the first four books, and while the story is still interesting, I haven't gotten my hands on a copy of the 5th book because it's just so damned depressing. I have no desire to see which character is the next one to get backstabbed to death or tortured into insanity or has to deal with either of the first two happening to eveyone they love.


And I'm no longer allowed to watch the TV show with my friends after the third time when I said something like "Where are we? Oh, right, nevermind, I can see that [character X] is still alive." :P


Hm. Honestly, as someone who's read both, I can say that Song of Ice and Fire doesn't even get close to Berserk in terms of cosmic dread. If you've only seen the TV series, that explains a lot of it, **** really only goes off the deep end in the finale, and the manga only really stars up there with the eldritch abominations and large scale black magic.

[Kitten Champion]

I'm surprised WH 40K and Fantasy weren't included here. It's the only popular series which can give Berserk a run for its money in cosmic bleakness.

.... Maybe Lovecraft.

[Deepbluediver]

Hm. Honestly, as someone who's read both, I can say that Song of Ice and Fire doesn't even get close to Berserk in terms of cosmic dread. If you've only seen the TV series, that explains a lot of it, **** really only goes off the deep end in the finale, and the manga only really stars up there with the eldritch abominations and large scale black magic.

Ah, ok, see, I'm more familiar with the anime rather than the manga, so maybe that's where the difference comes in. (and even then I haven't seen all the anime)

Also, I tend to find it worse when it's humans doing terrible, horrible things to each other rather than some eldritch abomination from the pit of the dammned, because I think it makes it feel more visceral/realistic, and therefor more depressing.
It's kinda like "I get that demons are the ebodiement of pure evil, but how can humans do that one another?!?" But that might just be me.

[Eldan]

Well. It seems that many, if not most, of the demons were once human. I can say that much. Their boss certainly is.

Even the eldritch abomination in question is a manifestation of the collective unconscious of humanity and their emotions.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I doubt that ASoIaF could win any "dark-off", even though I don't know the other three. It's gritty, with petty nobles, but it's basically just exaggerated medieval suckworld. Just about the darkest thing there is R'hollr and the White Walkers.

No, what (from my hearing) we really need is a dark-off between Beserk and Madoka. :smallbiggrin:

[nyarlathotep]

I doubt that ASoIaF could win any "dark-off", even though I don't know the other three. It's gritty, with petty nobles, but it's basically just exaggerated medieval suckworld. Just about the darkest thing there is R'hollr and the White Walkers.

No, what (from my hearing) we really need is a dark-off between Beserk and Madoka. :smallbiggrin:

But Madoka can literally wish everything better.

[Kitten Champion]

Madoka's world isn't different than our own but for those who get involved with the whole Faustian bargain thing.

It's kind of like Evangelion, you're relatively fine if you aren't a main character.

[Deepbluediver]

It's kind of like Evangelion, you're relatively fine if you aren't a main character.

I wonder if TV Tropes has an entry for the opposite of Red Shirts?
:smalltongue:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

RE: Madoka (spoilering because we've already gotten quite spoilery already)
Isn't that like saying that Lovecraftian horror isn't all that dark if you're not a protagonist? Also, we do see that "bystanders" get hit. They just don't realize it. That's akin to saying that the world of The Matrix isn't dark, just because the people don't realize they're being tapped for resources.

[nyarlathotep]

RE: Madoka (spoilering because we've already gotten quite spoilery already)
Isn't that like saying that Lovecraftian horror isn't all that dark if you're not a protagonist? Also, we do see that "bystanders" get hit. They just don't realize it. That's akin to saying that the world of The Matrix isn't dark, just because the people don't realize they're being tapped for resources.

Sorry it just seems really not terrible to me. You can literally wish everything better, and the monsters hurting people is no more frequent or horrible than what happens to StarTrek redshirts on a regular basis.

[Man on Fire]

Sorry it just seems really not terrible to me. You can literally wish everything better, and the monsters hurting people is no more frequent or horrible than what happens to StarTrek redshirts on a regular basis.

Wish will backfire horribly 99% of times.
Also, implycation that something like what happens on Star Trek happening on regular basis to common to be acceptable and not horrible is very laughable for me.

[nyarlathotep]

Wish will backfire horribly 99% of times.
Also, implycation that something like what happens on Star Trek happening on regular basis to common to be acceptable and not horrible is very laughable for me.

It's not about being acceptable it's about where the bar for "darkness" is in fictional settings.

[Kitten Champion]

Wish will backfire horribly 99% of times.
Also, implycation that something like what happens on Star Trek happening on regular basis to common to be acceptable and not horrible is very laughable for me.

The wish itself doesn't necessarily backfire.

Kyubei isn't a monkey's paw exactly - it doesn't care whether the wish benefits you or not, it's merely the cost of doing business on its part. Unlike say, Mephistopheles, it's goal isn't to make a point to anyone.


As to the Red Shirts - people die everyday in work related accidents and crime - that's life. The death of a Red Shirt every other week doesn't suggest Trek is dark or the Federation is dystopian, although one might question the competency of the latter. The trope is horrible because they die in an unrealistic manner in order to drum up tension in the narrative, but since it happened so frequently that the death of anyone who doesn't get their names in the opening credits is just an insignificant event you can shrug off. Like they didn't have families and lives of their own.



RE: Madoka (spoilering because we've already gotten quite spoilery already)
Isn't that like saying that Lovecraftian horror isn't all that dark if you're not a protagonist? Also, we do see that "bystanders" get hit. They just don't realize it. That's akin to saying that the world of The Matrix isn't dark, just because the people don't realize they're being tapped for resources.

You're confusing dystopic with dark. You can present dark themes and events absent of a dystopian setting, most horror does.

Madoka is most certainly dark, that doesn't make the world in which it occurs in a crapsack one. In the same way Buffy and Angel face terrible horrors and yet Whedon does not present the setting as being meaningfully altered by these forces for most mundane people. The world in which it occurs in is generally neutral, it simply includes monsters at the fringes. Madoka's world is even somewhat bright to emphasize the irony of the rabbit hole the girls have found themselves in and hearken back to magical girl anime like CCS with cozy settings. If I were asked to choose between Berserk's living hell and Madoka's Tokyo, it's not even close. I might, might get dragged into something with Madoka, but I will definitely not enjoy being on the same planet... or universe... as Guts.

The Matrix is a dystopia, but a complicated one. Nevertheless, regardless of the awareness people have, the people within the Matrix are being negatively affected by the setting. This simply isn't true for the vast majority of ignorant mundanes by the conclusion of Madoka. Although the movie itself does argue that the Matrix is really not the worst thing ever, provided the opportunity to choose to leave it exists, however slight that choice might be made. Life in Zion is even somewhat utopic. The major darkness is the events we didn't see, that which scarred the Earth and drove a wedge between the sentient species on it.

Lovecraft too is complicated, seeing as he wrote a large body of fiction. Some of which, like Nyarlathotep and the Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, are dystopian fantasies albeit short ones. Whereas other stories are simple Gothic horror. All are dark, certainly, but he largely suggests the things in the darkness rather than showing them to you outright - that's part of his genius. Staying away from scary crap that'll drive you mad is feasible within most of Lovecraft's works, and if Cthulhu does rise we'd all go crazy and be dead anyways so why worry? We live with the threat of meteor impacts, nuclear holocausts, and toddlers and tiaras everyday anyways. An ancient evil god or two isn't terribly relevant.

[Eldan]

There are a few times when Whedon hints at the world being dark for most people.

I remember when Buffy had her high school graduation ball and got a special award from her class. They mentioned that their year had the lowest death rate of any year in their high school's history.

This means people notice.

[Kitten Champion]

There are a few times when Whedon hints at the world being dark for most people.

I remember when Buffy had her high school graduation ball and got a special award from her class. They mentioned that their year had the lowest death rate of any year in their high school's history.

This means people notice.

This means people should notice, I think Whedon takes delight in the fact that they ignore or remain wilfully ignorant of everything. Like Buffy's mom frequently proved in the first few seasons.

The alternative universe where Cordelia wished Buffy never came to Sunnydale or the arc with Jasmine the evil Power taking over was close, but then obviously ended abruptly. Whedon wanted the world to nominally reflect our own, his world is not a dystopia regardless of its blacker themes.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Sorry it just seems really not terrible to me. You can literally wish everything better, and the monsters hurting people is no more frequent or horrible than what happens to StarTrek redshirts on a regular basis.
Quick note. You can...if...

You manage to inspire such devotion in a fellow mahou shoujo that she goes back in time tens of times to save you, again and again, thus making you the focus of several alternate realities, which grants you enough magical potential to (should you possess the requisite hope and will) use your wish to sacrifice your own existence to step outside of time and stop the horrible fate of mahou shoujo before it happens...

...only to find that you've merely made it slightly better for your fellow mahou shoujo, and that humanity is still threatened wholesale by the Demons, instead of being threatened by Witches.

That's a pretty waffly "can", and it doesn't mean much. It's also implied that if the mahou shoujo weren't around, things would be far worse for the humans.

If the setting is (under the surface) dark and horrific, I don't think that being ignorant of the terrible stuff makes it any better. (By that token, White Wolf doesn't make dark games, because mortals don't know any better.) If a tree falls in a forest, well, it certainly makes a sound. There's no koan here.

[nyarlathotep]

Quick note. You can...if...

You manage to inspire such devotion in a fellow mahou shoujo that she goes back in time tens of times to save you, again and again, thus making you the focus of several alternate realities, which grants you enough magical potential to (should you possess the requisite hope and will) use your wish to sacrifice your own existence to step outside of time and stop the horrible fate of mahou shoujo before it happens...

...only to find that you've merely made it slightly better for your fellow mahou shoujo, and that humanity is still threatened wholesale by the Demons, instead of being threatened by Witches.

That's a pretty waffly "can", and it doesn't mean much. It's also implied that if the mahou shoujo weren't around, things would be far worse for the humans.

If the setting is (under the surface) dark and horrific, I don't think that being ignorant of the terrible stuff makes it any better. (By that token, White Wolf doesn't make dark games, because mortals don't know any better.) If a tree falls in a forest, well, it certainly makes a sound. There's no koan here.

All of that is bad for those people but I would argue not enough to make their entire setting a particularly dark one as far as settings go. It's the same reason that say the Friday the 13th series isn't in that dark of a setting. The series may be really dark, but the world is only noticeably terrible for the specific people Jason is stalking and killing.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Though at the same time, other nations have fallen due to the undead plague. The nations of Balder and Berenike have both pretty much fallen to the undead as far as we know, and while there are the asylums, they can't keep everyone there.

And since
Reigniting the flame doesn't actually cure the undead, the undead will remain regardless. It appears to only be a matter of time until everyone is hollow.

We don't have much of a view of the outside world of Dark Souls beyond Lordran, but overall it doesn't seem a very cheery place. Certainly not as bad as the day-to-day events (that we see in the manga) of Berserk, but the Dark Souls world does seem to be very fatalistic.

Eh It is implied by Kaathe that rekindling the flame is actually a bad idea since you are just prolonging the Age of Fire (which from my understanding is what caused the Hollow plague) and that the Age of Dark was the name to the age of men given by the gods who feared them. Frankly it is just matter of time till we know what happens, since Dark Souls 2 is on the horizon and from the trailer it is probable we will travel to places outside Lortran.

[Drascin]

Eh It is implied by Kaathe that rekindling the flame is actually a bad idea since you are just prolonging the Age of Fire (which from my understanding is what caused the Hollow plague) and that the Age of Dark was the name to the age of men given by the gods who feared them.

Yes, but well, I'd be leery to take Kaathe at his word, given that the two times where he's confirmed to have been involved ended up shattering Oolacile and turning everyone there into a horrible monster, and turning the Four Kings into monster spectres. Plus he's head of a Covenant whose only purpose is to screw people over.

So clearly, what he considers a "greater age" for humanity might not quite be what WE would consider a greater age.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I haven't got the DLC so I didn't know of Kaathe's involvemt in the fall of Oolacile :smallredface: and being a Darkwraith is so damn fun (even if I always loose.

[Actana]

Eh It is implied by Kaathe that rekindling the flame is actually a bad idea since you are just prolonging the Age of Fire (which from my understanding is what caused the Hollow plague) and that the Age of Dark was the name to the age of men given by the gods who feared them. Frankly it is just matter of time till we know what happens, since Dark Souls 2 is on the horizon and from the trailer it is probable we will travel to places outside Lortran.

The rekindling of the flame is hinted to be Gwyndolin's plan on ruling over humanity, yes.

About the Darksign, there are some contradictory elements to it, which muddles the origins of the undead. As humanity is said to be the essence of the Dark Soul, the soul the pygmy found, that would mean the default state of humans is undead. How the Darksign came to be is unclear, but it came to be during the time of Gwyn, because of Havel, who was part of Gwyn's army. Havel is found locked in the watchtower in Undead Burg and this would mean that Havel would have been locked into the watchtower before Gwyn's departure to the flame, because there's obviously a fair amount of time between Gwyn's defeat of the dragons and his departure. Thus Havel was a hollow that existed before Gwyn linked himself to the fire - and thus the Darksign existed before all that, which contradicts the story that the PC linking the fire would end the Darksign and free the undead, since how would linking the fire end a thing that wasn't caused by the fire fading? (Mind you, the character in the watchtower may not be Havel himself and only a soldier, but he is described as a hollow in the key's description, so the point stands regardless.)

The Dark Lord ending? Yeah, it's pretty open. It's not what the gods want, and it's very unclear whether or not it's even good for humanity. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.


Yes, but well, I'd be leery to take Kaathe at his word, given that the two times where he's confirmed to have been involved ended up shattering Oolacile and turning everyone there into a horrible monster, and turning the Four Kings into monster spectres. Plus he's head of a Covenant whose only purpose is to screw people over.

So clearly, what he considers a "greater age" for humanity might not quite be what WE would consider a greater age.

It's not actually confirmed whether or not it was Kaathe who was the serpent responsible for Oolacile. I believe the quote was more or less "that primordial serpent", and it was from Marvellous Chester, who is a dubious source at best (feel free to correct me on this). Kaathe is of course an obvious choice, but there are more primordial serpents than Kaathe and Frampt as seen in the Dark Lord ending.

Also, the purpose of the Darkwraiths is to preserve humanity in order to fuel the (re)birth of the Dark Soul and to prevent the humanity from being wasted to fuel the bonfires. At least that's the theory and what we're told. It really can't be said what is true and what isn't with Kaathe. Regardless, power corrupts and most Darkwraiths are pretty much stab-happy omnicides.

[Man on Fire]

All of that is bad for those people but I would argue not enough to make their entire setting a particularly dark one as far as settings go. It's the same reason that say the Friday the 13th series isn't in that dark of a setting. The series may be really dark, but the world is only noticeably terrible for the specific people Jason is stalking and killing.

You're confusing two completely opposite situations.
Setting of Firday the 13th is completaly like ours, with exception of Jason and Freddy. In berserk Miura goes out of the way to show us that what we see is how all average people live in this world. Read a bit about history and you'll know Miura took worst parts from various historical pieroids and combined them, to make world even worse than any of them was.

[nyarlathotep]

You're confusing two completely opposite situations.
Setting of Firday the 13th is completaly like ours, with exception of Jason and Freddy. In berserk Miura goes out of the way to show us that what we see is how all average people live in this world. Read a bit about history and you'll know Miura took worst parts from various historical pieroids and combined them, to make world even worse than any of them was.

I never argued Berserk wasn't a dark setting. It most certainly is and for the exact reasons you stated. I was talking about Madoka which is in the same camp as slasher movies or monster of the week series, as it is just the main characters and the monsters' immediate victims.

[Man on Fire]

I never argued Berserk wasn't a dark setting. It most certainly is and for the exact reasons you stated. I was talking about Madoka which is in the same camp as slasher movies or monster of the week series, as it is just the main characters and the monsters' immediate victims.

Sorry, got a bit confused.
Through, with Madoka, the implication clearly is that Witches aren't just local thing, they're all around the world. Mangas with different members of Incubator's race only in Japan confirms that a bit - if one country needs more than just Kuubey, then probably so is entire world.

[Tebryn]

There's a chapter of Berserk that was absent in later editions which shows the entity above the god hand and explains its motives. The entire world is indeed entirely twisted and doomed.

Only because the world is in itself twisted and doomed to begin with. If the world wasn't filled with so much misery and woe it could be argued it would be a much better place.

[nyarlathotep]

Sorry, got a bit confused.
Through, with Madoka, the implication clearly is that Witches aren't just local thing, they're all around the world. Mangas with different members of Incubator's race only in Japan confirms that a bit - if one country needs more than just Kuubey, then probably so is entire world.

That's true but it just makes it overall only as dark as say Supernatural or other monster of the weeks shows in which people travel. Witches suck but they're just one more problem that effects a very small portion of the population. Overall looking more pleasant and less common than things like building fires. Unless of course the manga or some other source implies that witches are responsible for all human-caused suffering. All suicide, all spousal abuse, all unexplained deaths. In which case I would consider the series remarkably optimistic, as it would imply that humans are inherently good and without malignant outsider intervention would always be good.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Curiosly enough I just found that Dark Souls director Hidetaka Miyasaki is a fan of Berserk and it might have influenced him a bit.

Point of comparison:
http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/file/view/Artorias%20and%20Guts.jpg/378095310/800x528/Artorias%20and%20Guts.jpg

[CarpeGuitarrem]

That's true but it just makes it overall only as dark as say Supernatural or other monster of the weeks shows in which people travel. Witches suck but they're just one more problem that effects a very small portion of the population. Overall looking more pleasant and less common than things like building fires. Unless of course the manga or some other source implies that witches are responsible for all human-caused suffering. All suicide, all spousal abuse, all unexplained deaths. In which case I would consider the series remarkably optimistic, as it would imply that humans are inherently good and without malignant outsider intervention would always be good.
Not all, but certainly a large portion.

At any rate, under those criteria, would you term the World of Darkness to be a cheery sunshiny place? Because most mortals/Sleepers don't realize what's really going on.

[nyarlathotep]

Not all, but certainly a large portion.

At any rate, under those criteria, would you term the World of Darkness to be a cheery sunshiny place? Because most mortals/Sleepers don't realize what's really going on.

Depends on the individual splat as they present fairly incompatible worlds.

The question is not "is the general populous aware?" it is instead "is the general populous affected?". It's why I wouldn't say call Men in Black a dark series; sure the entire world is threatened by destruction and a few people get eaten, but for most people most of the time everything is normal.

[t209]

I forgot one setting, Dragon Age. The world keeps getting worse and worse.

[Man on Fire]

I forgot one setting, Dragon Age. The world keeps getting worse and worse.

Then you also forgot the Witcher, because in the books it tops everything Dragon Age ever pulled when it comes to getting worse.

[Scarch]

Of those I would say Berserk. Raped by a demon king pretty much takes the cake.