Help me with my bard?

[sambouchah]

So I have been invited to play in a friends campaign(been looking for a friendlier group). And I have decided to play a half-dragon bard(possibly aasimir base creature) I have up to lv 14 to work with. Optimizing inspire courage and possibly trying to get bigger damage with natural weapons.

So getting a bigger inspire courage first. I was thinking a Natural Horn(Ram's horn), with Song of the Heart feat, Words of creation and Melodic casting. Meaning 6d6 elemental damage(silver dragon?). The dungeon master said I can do a better inspire courage on my horn by paying bonus squared x 4,000. Is that a ripoff or should I jump on that? I do in fact have a bard handbook up right now so no need to post a link.

also I have 150,000 gp to start. So I can buy lots.

Now for my claws, breath and bite. How can I make these stronger? Or
should I just use a sword? I have 150,000 after all, I can buy quite a bit. Also it's a 75 point buy(super duper high powered campaign I suppose) so ability score suggestions?
Also a base race suggestion?

Thank you who reply so much for the help! I don't want to be a useless character for hours, Sam:smallbiggrin:

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

As for the base race...

Why are you set on Half-Dragon? LA +3 is generally not worth the investment. There could be a lot of more optimal races, and if you can give some more information about what you want out of your race in both crunch and fluff that would be helpful.

I assume you know about Dragonfire Inspiration and that stuff?

[sambouchah]

As for the base race...

Why are you set on Half-Dragon? LA +3 is generally not worth the investment. There could be a lot of more optimal races, and if you can give some more information about what you want out of your race in both crunch and fluff that would be helpful.

I assume you know about Dragonfire Inspiration and that stuff?

That is the essence of the build actually. That's why I want better inspire courage and why I use the Horn instead of a lute. Would Dragonwrought Kobold work better?

Edit: Or Lizard King(SK) maybe?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Personally I'd rather have an extra three levels of class stuff than anything that Half-Dragon would give.

[sambouchah]

Personally I'd rather have an extra three levels of class stuff than anything that Half-Dragon would give.

Well I was doing it more for fluff(Striking a deal with Bahamut who turned me into one in exchange for my service as a preacher).

[Baroncognito]

Then why not Dragonborn of Bahamut?

[BBJimmy]

Well, if you are doing it for the fluff, then look no further than the Dragonborn template (Races of the Dragon). It gets you all the draconic stuff you could ever need, and all for the low low price of +0 LA. Also, Dragonborn can be Platinum-descended, unlike every other draconic creature.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

[sambouchah]

Then why not Dragonborn of Bahamut?

I thought about it. I made the pact after being an aasimir(or human, gnome or whatever).

[BBJimmy]

I thought about it. I made the pact after being an aasimir(or human, gnome or whatever).

But that's exactly how the template works. No one is born a Dragonborn, in fact they're sterile. You can only become one through Bahamut's blessing. The template is applied to a pre-existing character, not through genetics like normal.

[LTwerewolf]

Decide if you want to go physical or caster with your build. If you want physical, war chanter from CW is pretty good. Two songs at once means both inspire courage and dragonfire inspiration.

[Baroncognito]

I thought about it. I made the pact after being an aasimir(or human, gnome or whatever).

Yes. That's what you do. You're a certain race, you go through a ritual, you lose some aspects of that race and you gain some aspects of dragon-kind.

Edit: This time Jimmy James sword-saged me.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Forget about using any level adjustment at all, it's not worth it. Silverbrow Human from Dragon Magic gets the silver dragon feel without a level adjustment. There are plenty of ways to get natural weapons without sacrificing character levels (Totemist, items, feats, etc.).

I'd start out Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) 8/ Totemist 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 2, plan on finishing Abjurant Champion and then probably get Paragnostic Apostle to finish out to 20th. I'd take the feat Arcane Preparation to be able to cast (Greater) Luminous Armor and use a Metamagic Rod of Quicken. Get +1 Harmonizing armor spikes, a Badge of Valor, Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a), a custom Runestaff, Circlet of Rapid Casting, Lesser Rod of Quicken, Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101), and probably pick the rest from this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851). For spells known get a mix of buffs, situational/social spells, and a few save-or-lose such as Glitterdust and Black Tentacles.

[sambouchah]

But that's exactly how the template works. No one is born a Dragonborn, in fact they're sterile. You can only become one through Bahamut's blessing. The template is applied to a pre-existing character, not through genetics like normal.

+2 Cha though:smallfrown:

Edit: Yes I know that isn't really worth much here!

[BBJimmy]

+2 Cha though:smallfrown:

Edit: Yes I know that isn't really worth much here!

Then play a Lesser Aassimar (Player's Guide to Faerun, pg 191). +0 LA, give up Outsider [native] and become extraplanar instead. Keep the stat modifiers and racial abilities (which are vastly underpowered for +1 LA anyways).

Then apply the Dragonborn template, adding another +2 Con and -2 Dex, plus the other draconic bennies.

[sambouchah]

Then play a Lesser Aassimar (Player's Guide to Faerun, pg 191). +0 LA, give up Outsider [native] and become extraplanar instead. Keep the stat modifiers and racial abilities (which are vastly underpowered for +1 LA anyways).

Then apply the Dragonborn template, adding another +2 Con and -2 Dex, plus the other draconic bennies.

I planned on it. And half-Dragon was for better strength, etc

[BBJimmy]

I planned on it. And half-Dragon was for better strength, etc

Trust me, the extra 3 bard levels are so much more useful than the little Str bonus ever could be. Heck, just use a wand of Bull's Strength if you need the boost!

I don't mean to sound flippant, but I've done the half-dragon thing before, and it never works out like you'd expect. That +3 LA HURTS.

[sambouchah]

Trust me, the extra 3 bard levels are so much more useful than the little Str bonus ever could be. Heck, just use a wand of Bull's Strength if you need the boost!

I don't mean to sound flippant, but I've done the half-dragon thing before, and it never works out like you'd expect. That +3 LA HURTS.

It's alright, you're warning about making a dumb decision. Would Dragonwrought Kobold be any better? I also wanted wings by the by

[LTwerewolf]

Dragonborn gives you wings. Dragonborn and kobold are not mutually exclusive.

[BBJimmy]

It's alright, you're warning about making a dumb decision. Would Dragonwrought Kobold be any better? I also wanted wings by the by

Yes, and it's always fun to be a little dragon! I prefer my kobolds feisty and with a Spanish accent, complete with mustache (don't talk to me about the improbability of reptilian facial hair! He's Spanish!). Tulio was truly the best swashbuckling bard a party could ask for, what with his constant moral boosts and dragonfire inspiration. Also, wings are great, as they mean one less thing you need magic for.


Dragonborn gives you wings. Dragonborn and kobold are not mutually exclusive.

Dragonborn give you wings, yes, and Dragonwrought take a feat to get them, but also give a whole other set of benefits from being of the dragon type, not just a humanoid (dragonblood). Still, either choice is good depending on what you want to do with it. After all, Inspire Courage is but one small part of a successful bard.

[Invader]

Be a dragon born petal. A tiny fey dragon with a breath weapon and wings and a +8 CHA. Way better than a half dragon :smallwink:

[sambouchah]

Be a dragon born petal. A tiny fey dragon with a breath weapon and wings and a +8 CHA. Way better than a half dragon :smallwink:

What is petal's level adjustment?

[Slipperychicken]

Words of Creation doubles IC, and the homebrew item rule adds. They apply in the most beneficial order, doubling Horn's bonus and making it a much better deal. The total bonus granted costs the same as a weapon then... but applies to the whole team and stacks with regular weapons. Once you've covered the essentials (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851), it may be a good investment. 36k for a net gain of +6 (+3, doubled by Words of Creation) on IC to the whole team is pretty darn good. If you have lots of damage-dealers, see if they'll pitch in for a better Horn.

If your allies are Power-Attackers and not attack-spammers, then vanilla IC may be better than DFI, because it would let them PA for more (and not worry about resistance/immunity to your damage type).

EDIT: Don't forget your wands and scrolls. Scrolls of every 1st level spell in the game may be nice, some wands like Knock will come in handy. Wand of CL7 Glibness is only 15,750. A scroll of Animate Dread Warrior (even CL 30 is a little less than 10k) will be very sexy for when you kill a caster-boss.

[Invader]

What is petal's level adjustment tment tment?

+3 but you get ridiculous stats, flight, tiny size andt the bonuses that go with that and a bunch of other stuff although id have to check to see if any of the other stuff gets canceled out by Dragonborn although I don't think it does.

[Invader]

With a 75 point buy you could easily have a dex, con, and cha, all well into the thirties.

[sambouchah]

Words of Creation doubles IC, and the homebrew item rule adds. They apply in the most beneficial order, doubling Horn's bonus and making it a much better deal. The total bonus granted costs the same as a weapon then... but applies to the whole team and stacks with regular weapons. Once you've covered the essentials (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851), it may be a good investment. 36k for a net gain of +6 (+3, doubled by Words of Creation) on IC to the whole team is pretty darn good. If you have lots of damage-dealers, see if they'll pitch in for a better Horn.

If your allies are Power-Attackers and not attack-spammers, then vanilla IC may be better than DFI, because it would let them PA for more (and not worry about resistance/immunity to your damage type).

Paladin and his cohorts(alternate rules so no follower), fighter(two weapons), TWO axe wielding monks, and a halfing ranger and my bard. I haven't seen them in action though.

[Slipperychicken]

Paladin and his cohorts(alternate rules so no follower), fighter(two weapons), TWO axe wielding monks, and a halfing ranger and my bard. I haven't seen them in action though.

If I'm guessing right that those Monks are somehow flurrying their axes, basically everyone is an attack-spammer, meaning that those DFI dice are going to multiply like crazy. It might be entertaining to do the math on whether you out-damage them with DFI alone (3.5 * [number of DFI dice] * number of attacks per round = DFI damage). Buffing will do you very well, and get those guys to pitch in for the horn.

Also, I edited my earlier post. Basically you have UMD, so use it.

Originally Posted by ME

EDIT: Don't forget your wands and scrolls. Scrolls of every 1st level spell in the game may be nice, some wands like Knock will come in handy. Wand of CL7 Glibness is only 15,750. A scroll of Animate Dread Warrior (even CL 30 is a little less than 10k) can be very sexy for when you kill a caster-boss.

[sambouchah]

If I'm guessing right that those Monks are somehow flurrying their axes, basically everyone is an attack-spammer, meaning that those DFI dice are going to multiply like crazy. It might be entertaining to do the math on whether you out-damage them with DFI alone (3.5 * [number of DFI dice] * number of attacks per round = DFI damage). Buffing will do you very well, and get those guys to pitch in for the horn.

Also, I edited my earlier post. Basically you have UMD, so use it.

Holy cow Chicken! I hadn't even thought about it:smallbiggrin: Can't wait to have them break calculators out for all their damage output

[Averis Vol]

I'm going to second War chanter. though for a more or less optimized build I would only take three levels for song of recklessness, which is basically a go ahead to full power attack every time. Sure, you tank your AC into the nether regions but with things like mirror image, blink, displacement or greater invisibility, who cares?

As for a build. I would try something like:

harmonious knight paladin of freedom 2/bard 8/ Warblade 2/swiftblade 3/abjurant champion 5

for gear:

Vest of legends: 16k gets you an effective +5 to bard level for determining your IC value.

badge of valor: 1.2k gets you a +1 bonus to IC

Belt of giants strength +4: 36k

Cloak of charisma +4: 36k

other then that, go hog wild and grab a nice colliding blue ice greatsword and some armor (doesn't really matter what kind.)

Important feats include:

words of creation
song of the heart
dragonfire inspiration
power attack
song of the white raven.

Spells: Bladeweave, inspirational boost, mirror image, displacement, haste.

this is probably an incomplete list, and its probably got some big holes in it, but its late here. hope it helps.

[sambouchah]

I'm going to second War chanter. though for a more or less optimized build I would only take three levels for song of recklessness, which is basically a go ahead to full power attack every time. Sure, you tank your AC into the nether regions but with things like mirror image, blink, displacement or greater invisibility, who cares?

As for a build. I would try something like:

harmonious knight paladin of freedom 2/bard 8/ Warblade 2/swiftblade 3/abjurant champion 5

for gear:

Vest of legends: 16k gets you an effective +5 to bard level for determining your IC value.

badge of valor: 1.2k gets you a +1 bonus to IC

Belt of giants strength +4: 36k

Cloak of charisma +4: 36k

other then that, go hog wild and grab a nice colliding blue ice greatsword and some armor (doesn't really matter what kind.)

Important feats include:

words of creation
song of the heart
dragonfire inspiration
power attack
song of the white raven.

Spells: Bladeweave, inspirational boost, mirror image, displacement, haste.

this is probably an incomplete list, and its probably got some big holes in it, but its late here. hope it helps.

I decided Bard 14 was good enough. So for me it's Dragonwrought Kobold Bard 14 with song of the heart, dragonfire inspiration(Electric because of bronze), Wings(Dragonwrought feat), Words of creation, weapon finesse and melodic casting. Spells I haven't decided on just yet.
Trait: slow
Flaws: Shaky, pathetic(-2 more to str)

Equipment for now is a Natural horn of +2 bardic music(equaling +4 bardic music from the horn) it is also master work

[nyjastul69]

I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but Subsonics (Complete Adventurer) is an excellent feat choice for a bard.

[tiercel]

I know that Words of Creation is "standard" optimization for Inspire Courage, but (A) make sure your DM is OK with the whole doubling thing, i.e. whether you can get away with doubling *after* all IC plusses and (B) refamiliarize yourself with what Exalted means: if your DM is lax about being uber-Good, so much the easier for you, but as written being Exalted-Good makes a paladin's Code of Conduct look like riding a tricycle with training wheels by comparison.

[Invader]

I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but Sunday bsonics (Complete Adventurer) is an excellent feat choice for a bard.

Subsonics is actually pretty suboptimal compared to a lot of other feats a bard should be taking if he's trying to optimize.

[Socratov]

I know that Words of Creation is "standard" optimization for Inspire Courage, but (A) make sure your DM is OK with the whole doubling thing, i.e. whether you can get away with doubling *after* all IC plusses and (B) refamiliarize yourself with what Exalted means: if your DM is lax about being uber-Good, so much the easier for you, but as written being Exalted-Good makes a paladin's Code of Conduct look like riding a tricycle with training wheels by comparison.

Ehm, not really... Exalted means you always do the good thing (you can be exalted while chaotic good). To take a sidestep into the realm of ethics, it's all about 3 choices to do the right thing:


doing it for the right reasons/motivation (being lied to doesn't count)
using the right means
Achieving the right goal


if faced with a dilemma where 1 of the 3 doesn't match being good, fall back onto your personal background (backstory and outlook). Try to incorporate how your character has his outlook on life. What is good. For most DM's contemplating those 3 things as a character (instead of being a kleptomaniac serial killer hobo) is a whole thing in itself. If the Gm is deliberately making you fall because he presents you with a choice where you fall no matter what you do (even if it is nothing) then your DM is a **** and should have his books thrown at his head (not yours, books are expensive, use his). By showing you care for the motivation, means and consequences of your actions and taking htem seriously there is no way your DM can strip you of your exalted feat. A few tips none the less, do think about the following: violence is a last resort when the encounter can't be resolved peacefully. A little charity here and there can't hurt and being in a helpful mood is certainly good stuff.

Another nice thing to cotemplate is whether or not you are just a saintly person, or if you are on a holy quest from some divine being or something (and thus he is powering you with WoC) and what the terms are for that quest.

When dealing with BoED a detalied and thought through backstory saves characters more often then not. Also remember discussing with your DM what his expetations of an exalted character are. REmember being exalted is not automaticaly taking a vow of poverty, and if neccessary remember him to it (there is a feat for that).

Now, onto the build.

First I'd like you to think about what the rest of the party can do. A bard can easily make people redundant in what he does (I have seen it happen and it shames people in a really bad way). If you have lots of fighters, don't fight. If you have lots of casters, don't cast. If you have a skillmonkey, then don't go skillmonkeying (though luckily because you're not human you're not really that good at it so let it slide).

A bard has the following options (complete with rough outline of the crunch needed):

Partyface: pump charisma -> invest in diplo, bluff, sense motive, gather info, intimidate
caster: bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 -> now you have wizardcasting, accellerated while still able to IC hard
fighter: Snowflake wardancing (look it up in the bard handbook)
Healer: Healing Hymn ACF (Comp Champion or divine)
Battle leader: (for lots of little guys) Warchanter (now everybody has insane bab and iteratives as well as dfi and IC
Skillmonkey: human+nymph's kiss+able learner, you are now a factotum
IC/DFI: anything that increases IC (great with caster/fighter/battle leader), get vest of legends, if you have non-bard HD, get Chaos Music (dragon mag), horn instrument

Personal favorite is caster build, with point in social skills, while human with nymph's kiss, healing hymn and pumping IC. This makes you pretty much the best support character ever: 1st 2 rounds: music, rest casting/healing when neccessary.

The feats you absolutely want are lingering song (don't leave home without it), melodic casting (concentration now performance).

the ACF's you want are Healing Hymn: trade fascination (useless anyway) for Healing hym doubling your healingspells/accellerating natural healing (simply awesome and very useful). Then trade suggestion per Eberron for Song the Heart and free up a featslot. Trade countersong for spellbreaker song and you are fully equipped to face any danger that is appropriate for your level.

As intended the bard was a jack of all trades, master of none, but with a little bit of splatdiving you make the bard jack of some trades, master of many. Even though you will never out fight a warblade (you might with the right build a fighter), or out cast a wizard, or out heal a cleric, but that's just about it (and you get really close if you build for it, enough to scare them). And who doesn't love the nice and friendly bard traveling with a couple of heroes to create an epic tale of heroics to last and be retold for ages to come :smallwink::smallamused: (people only forget he kicks ass as well)

[Invader]

Lingering song is a waste of a feat. Why would you burn a feat to get an extra 5 rounds out of your music?

[Socratov]

Lingering song is a waste of a feat. Why would you burn a feat to get an extra 5 rounds out of your music?

simple: 5~10 rounds is most of combat and it will free up your mind, hands, and most importantly your actions to play other songs/cast spells/fight/whatever. for just one feat it's quite mandatory for my bards (no keeping up songs and such jazz) Some songs are 1 round until not kept up anymore (keeping up songs cost you action economy with concentration checks and you have to keep performing). Those songs are now 6 songs +rounds kept up

EDIT: Oh, and don't forget the bardic knack ACF. Congratulations, you are now a skillmonkey as well... :smallwink: